Training: Take 2

[Guest]

Oh yeah! There's one-way empathy for sure. I was talking about when empathy is genuinely useful...as opposed to wasted, or is being manufactured in us as feed for the care-taker (very useful for them of course).

people "like" someone else more than they are "liked" in return; that this was normal

of course, I know.

I don't want someone to throw themselves under a bus for me; but it would be nice not to be thrown under that bus all the time! Can you see the tyre marks? sigh. They're wearing thinner now. Now that I refuse to be so easily thrown. Walking down roads without buses on them makes a fair difference.

available to be cared for

Tricky one this. Do you miss some things that you have never had? Possibly, in some ways. I don't think you can ever replace the primary care that was missing. You have to accept the loss/vacuum. Otherwise you may repeat, thinking that you're getting care, when it's another using relationship. The kind of care we missed can't be replicated in adults. Probably exactly because we are adults. As for intimacy, isn't that being known and knowing another?

Hops - the company of your heart - warming and wise. So human.

[ann3]

So I wonder how much of this confusion over empathy that I have impacts intimacy? It sounds like there's a logical connecton there. I wonder if I just feel safer - being invisible - not known; not available to be cared for - because it's always turned out badly before and I therefore expect and anticipate that wound... that hasn't even happened. Fear, in other words.

Amber,
I think all that stuff is connected:  Our experiences with empathy (reciprocal or unilateral), boundaries, wounding & fear all impact how we handle intimacy.  Sounds like you are deconstructing & reconstructing all that stuff.

I also think related to empathy & intimacy are the words/concepts "selfish", "selfless", "self esteem", "self care" & "self soothing":  how do we define these now & how did we define them in the past?

[sKePTiKal]

Now that I refuse to be so easily thrown. Walking down roads without buses on them makes a fair difference.

hahahahahaha! No buses would make a big difference! I hadn't thought of that, at all.

or is being manufactured in us as feed for the care-taker (very useful for them of course).

I can't exactly laugh at this phrase. I sense evil in that situation and shrink from even looking at it, for fear of being contaminated by it. Precisely because (I think), part of me knows it all too well and won't ever forget it. In some small way, it helps that someone else knows about that particular dysfunction in a relationship. Pod People... Invasion of the Body Snatchers... gave me nightmares for the obvious associative reasons.

It's come up frequently here on the board - the vampire-like way these parents feed off manufactured crises, and the emotional distress of others. It came up in my own therapy, too. I don't think I've ever been ready to really do my own deep-space-soul exploration of it... it so goes against what I feel is the natural order of the universe... which I guess, is one way to define evil. I want to - if possible - completely deny the reality of this "power" over others that these people wield, sans morals and emotion. Make it a scary fairy tale... somehow... that has a happy ending. And I know that this is just sticking my head in the sand and hiding. It's real; it happens; it happened to me -- and lots of other people.

Once the "trick" is revealed - and the truth stands alone - the sense of betrayal, the emotional pain usually destroys the relationship, in say a close friendship or a marriage. When this happens with a parent - unless, like you say you go where there are no buses - it happens so often, so repeatedly.... one feels (whether or not this part is true) that one is totally helpless to change the dynamic. One accepts that helplessness in the face of attempts to generate that empathy; to manipulate and use someone again. One likes to believe there is hope for sibs - sometimes there is; sometimes not.

Somehow in this most recent "close encounter" with my FOO-characters and their primary games & scripts... something shifted in me for the first time. I - and this is most important - I didn't throw MYSELF under the bus in an attempt to interrupt, influence, or edit the traditionally dysfunctional FOO-script. Instead, I was angry, outraged, disbelieving - maintained my boundaries - and walked away when I said I would... to the place where there are no buses looking for me. I sure as hell didn't feel any empathy for either of them, after I arrived and understood that all they needed me for -- was that kind of "feeding". My SIL is no longer available to either of them for this... so they came back to me to fill that role.

HMMMM. Not sure what the significance of all that is - or if it even has any. Things do look different since turning that corner; finally taking that one step...off what I thought was a cliff, only to find myself caught short only about a foot or two below - not falling, falling, falling through a huge distance of space waiting to go splat.

Offering something kind and spacious, where they can sense the company of your heart.

This is helpful, Hops and beautifully written. Your ability to say complex things so simply still astounds me! It's that "being present  with" another that I mean and understand as intimacy. Where one is completely open and trusting to the other... and they are the same, too. It's almost a subliminal perception - a sense of the state of things - and doesn't render the details that well, in words. At least for me. I'm still reading lots of "womens" books... on a Lisa See kick now because last summer I read Shanghai Girls and got really hooked. Might switch to Allende again just for a change in cultures; setting.

Hi ANN!!!  ::waving::

thanks for that context & perspective... you're probably right about the deconstructing/reconstructing/redefining. It's different on this side of the corner I turned. Yes, I think you're also right that a prerequisite for this - was a foundational restructuring of "self". That took a few years longer than I anticipated - all by itself. I feel - oddly - way more secure in the new structure, than the old one. More confident in my competence... if that makes any sense at all. I was pretty wobbly though, at the point of turning the corner. Ain't done yet - but I can at least begin working on the next phase construction. And significantly - this new structure doesn't require any approval or input from FOO. Design by committee NEVER works.

The kind of care we missed can't be replicated in adults. Probably exactly because we are adults.

You all are great!! The collective wisdom here is one I know I missed but knew existed - the women working & talking over a quilt; putting up the harvest; sewing.... minding babes... or sitting on boards of directors. Whether it's just two women or more... I've been learning that this is one thing I crave. I've done the "world of men" and didn't do too badly at it - but always retreated and kept women at arm's length because of my experience with my mom; I feared the same kind of betrayal, rejection, etc -- I was so afraid that this was all there was and that the other image was a fantasy and didn't exist. You've proven I didn't need to fear.

I am of two minds about whether holes can be filled; whether or not we can replace or attain what we needed as children - because we're no longer children. It is true, that the time for our total dependence for existence on another person is past until we are ancient and decrepit in our old age. The lessons we assimilated from poor or neglectful or painful parenting are woven intrinsically into our being; part of who we are, if we define ourselves as the chronological experiences that have made up our lives. (There are other ways of defining ourselves.)

I believe that the actual things we needed and didn't have, are independent of the relationship itself. The relationship of FOO members, for me, is a lost cause. But I know that like the parable of "manna from heaven" the things I need are still available to me, if I allow myself to connect with other people, take those risks of trusting tempered with my better understanding of boundaries... and make a conscious effort to avoid unconsciously looking for a parent-child kind of relationship. I am convinced of this, because I've experienced this... with people who are not my blood relatives. I can start listing them... but I run out of fingers and toes!

I guess for some people, this "just happens". For me it takes more awareness and effort (within myself)... and perhaps with enough practice it will start to feel like it "just happens". And one of the keys to this... starts with me caring first - not always waiting or expecting the other person to care about me first, as a "condition" for relationship and intimacy. Although, that's beginning to occur more frequently these days, too... and I have to work really hard not to retreat and avoid - out of plain old habit. I typically run the opposite direction as fast as I can... and people don't understand the real reason; they just think I'm anti-social or don't like other people. Not true at all - and perhaps it's just laziness and that funky comfort-zone of what I'm "used to" - that I let them think what they want or tell them I'm boring and don't make the effort to get out and do things with people and relearn the "art of hanging out".

Enough babbling today. I have work to do.

[Guest]

Well, I don't know about happy endings. There are just endings. Maybe it would help if we didn't have 'happy ending' stories? If we never had the happy ending, but something approaching "and then the next thing happened, but that's the end of the story for us".

Story-telling, 'telling stories', short stories and 'tall stories'. Interesting how people can manufacture their own story, keep telling it, building on it, believing it no doubt. How does this story of My Life sound? If I say it enough, it will be true (regardless of the truth). Tell me one thing:

if you had witnessed, been involved in, a tragic, disturbing event, would you forget the date of that event? Perhaps if there were pre-events that contributed to the tragedy, would you perhaps think back to those times instead and lengthen your memory of 'the event'? I wonder. Anyway:

Helplessness ends with the end of attachment, perhaps. When you can see and feel that any bond is only in your head and is outdated and broken; with no relation to reality. Helplessness only happens in the face of power: remove the power and you are free.

I sure as hell didn't feel any empathy for either of them

there are times - or places - when our empathy glands/pathways shrivel up and turn tail. Probably when they get (correctly) spooked by fear or shock. But if it's useful, we can still fake it and turn that manufacture/feed dynamic on its head. Doesn't do us any good unless we know we're playing the game for an objective, an outcome. Even if playing makes us feel very very sick.

not falling, falling, falling through a huge distance of space waiting to go splat.

glad you found it isn't such a big cliff Amber. I guess most things aren't.

this new structure doesn't require any approval or input from FOO

did it ever?

I believe that the actual things we needed and didn't have, are independent of the relationship itself.

LOL Hell YES! Turn that sentence around and see how funny it is. No, seriously, do. I bet you'll enjoy it. I did!
Okay that's enough fun for today.

[Hopalong]

Thank you, (((((Guest)))) for your drama-free sanity.

I really appreciated reading this.

Helplessness ends with the end of attachment, perhaps. When you can see and feel that any bond is only in your head and is outdated and broken; with no relation to reality. Helplessness only happens in the face of power: remove the power and you are free.

Hops

[Guest]

Hey Hops
I've had enough 'drama' for a lifetime. Drama is not seriousness, yes? Because of the word drama and its associations, I actually don't like the theatre. I feel manipulated as an audience member! And it's a reaction against all the people I know - several - who love the theatre, dahling. Well that's my thing I guess.

[sKePTiKal]

OK, Guest - date: Mar 15, 1968. VERY traumatic experience for moi... and there were absolutely no winners that day. The time leading up to that (only about 12 years for me)... had very few "bright" and "sunny" spots in it if I look at FOO only*, to want to relive... rather it was a "highway to hell" (Savoy Brown). The day itself is remembered as more like a silent film; for the actions/reactions/consequences... sans editorial mental comment... and emotion even, comes & goes throughout the filmstrip -- until the part where my mother doesn't believe me about what happens and then punishes me, when I insist it did and for the actions I took to save my own life, keep my brother safe, and take care of us while she was not there. I won't even get into the worst of it; that all happened about a year afterward, when my mother flipped out and appeared to be a multiple personality... and did even worse things to me.

* thank god that my instinct was to be somewhere OTHER than home - a lot more than other kids... or maybe that was a learned instinct.

Doesn't do us any good unless we know we're playing the game for an objective, an outcome. Even if playing makes us feel very very sick.

I know what you're talking about here. I had to do this with an N-boss... and wasn't too bad at it; he offered lots of "practice" you know??? ::LOL::  I learned to get in and get out, safely; most of the time. And that sick feeling... feels way more like shame for me... like I'm lowering myself to the level of playing games BECAUSE no one will take a straightforward request, suggestion or advice seriously and respond directly back. And people shouldn't have to resort to that to work... make decisions in life... etc. Notice the "should" monster has raised his head...

well, with MomBro... that "should" monster grows larger and my feeling of cognitive dissonance (and betrayal, abandonment, and maybe even shame - tho' that's papered over with anger) grows right along with it.

[A memory just pooped into my head (that was a typo, but it's appropriate)... my mom's definition of "family": it's the PLACE where, when you have no where else to go, they have to take you in. Not people; not caring; not relationships... it's a place; things. I don't know what part of my brain thinks that's relevant...]

To try to turn the game around with MomBro - even Bro - is very, very dangerous for me, because of that sense of dissonance which of course, he doesn't even experience... because he can't even begin to see things from my perspective nor why my perspective (and myself) matters - or should - to him, at least in the business realm. I feel like Bruce Lee... trying to single-handedly disable multiple attackers -- because those emotions attached to the dissonance can and have disabled me in the past... just to get to the person hiding behind them. To be heard and recognized; taken seriously; to matter.

So, I use what I've learned from Tai Chi Push Hands. This is working with a partner, and you are required to maintain contact with the back/front of the wrist. There are various patterns beginners practice, with a single arm. Then, when basic skills are learned one moves on to using both arms. The rest of the body is also involved, as feet need to be properly placed to maintain balance and strength as you shift weight back & forward. At the more advanced levels - the partners begin to move around from that stationary position in 6 directions or more. The most important skill to learn is the first one - how to move without ever breaking contact.

It is through the contact that each partner can "listen" to the other, and know precisely when and how to move to gain the goal of Push Hands - which is simply to pull one's "opponent" off balance. The easiest ways to do this is with timing, misdirection and the one I like the best... not being "there" - not being where the opponent thinks I'm going to be... because then, their expection and the momentum in their movement sends them off away from me... all by themselves and I've made no aggressive move at all.

Well, what I noticed after a couple years of working on this was that the part of my mind that attaches emotions to perception and experience shuts up. (I'm calling it Monkey Mind.) It stops telling me what to do... stops anticipating threats... stops sending ME off in the wrong direction because it was distracting my attention... and my opponent got out of the way or took advantage of my lack of strength or balance in those split-seconds. And instead, I have a direct "connection" through my body that knows what to do, when. It knows without thinking... and from that place, I can also permit myself to be more aggressive - take positive direct action, instead of the indirect - without feeling as if I'm going to hurt someone, break taboos, or otherwise do something "bad"....

... without the "cognitive dissonance (and betrayal, abandonment, and maybe even shame - tho' that's papered over with anger)" being involved at all. It was one of those earth-shattering breakthroughs for me to find that place within myself... the one that "knew" without thinking and reacted correctly, instinctively and could easily make those direct, positive actions without agonizing over the decision... and suffering no consequences either; just a compliment from the teacher. "Should" doesn't even exist in that place... it's more like a 1 & 0... on or off type place.

It is the only way I've found to cut through the BS of shoulds, the cognitive dissonance and the tagalong emotions... and deal directly with "what is", no matter who the person is - Mom or Bro - and maintain just enough contact to know when to push and when to get the hell out of the way! And perhaps writing - instead of talking - to Bro falls into that place and techniques... no, I shouldn't have to - but when he absolutely doesn't hear or understand the importance of what I'm telling him and asking him...  ??? I have to keep trying something else, right? To maintain "contact". So, I "won" this current round with Bro - I got agreement from him on 3 points of the proposal; the 4th wasn't important to me and he gravitated right to it and disagreed with that one.     Like a bee to honey. The distraction of "saving face" and having an ego-bone to "prove" he's powerful and in control...    sigh....

Here's the thing - having to do that makes me feel slimy, low, immoral, and just plain sneaky and bad. He is my brother and he's 52 years old. Why can we not relate to each other on an adult level? Why are all these extra steps (and I did ask a 3rd party to help explain things to him; in case it was "me" that was the problem in getting him to engage and understand)... NECESSARY? The should monster shrinks and hides away... until the next time... but he's always lurking. Part of me simply refuses to accept the tech support maxim which applies to my brother: "You can't fix stupid. You can buy 'em books, send 'em to school and they just chew on the pages."

He says things to me which make absolutely no sense at all - when he runs out of things to accuse me of, like:

"You're a techie person, what's so wrong with just picking up the phone and talking to someone? Why do you always have to email, put things in writing?" This, right after I told him, I sent him the proposal in a letter... because I express myself better in writing than just talking... and I needed to have my meanings clear for him, to understand.

Anyone wanna try to decode that? Or how about, he told me last year he was going to retire this year. So, making conversation, I asked him when he thought he'd retire this year... and he asked me who told me he was going to retire. When I said he did... of course, I was imagining things... maybe he has multple personalities, too. At least Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde... Mom's that way, too. When she "flips" into the other personality nothing she said or did before matters anymore... now it's something else.

I will stop being so damn stubborn about forcing him to be what he obviously is not; interested and engaged in business. I will deal only with "what is"... even though our employees are now starting to make jokes about "where in the world is Bro" this week? Do you have to call your mom to get him to call someone back, still? (which is why I don't call him anymore... it can literally be weeks before he responds and he thinks that's appropriate with his partner but reams me out when I'm forced to act or decide, for the good of the business and not consult him - BECAUSE he doesn't respond... I hate passive-aggressiveness.).

And I'm still pursuing information about my "nuclear option" through my hired guns. It's interesting, too - I'm starting to sense that this scenario isn't all that foriegn to the group and the female leader, in particular. She is watching my back legally... and probably more than anyone else in the room seems to have first-hand personal experience in situations like mine. On the emotional side; the healing side. Because you know... with these PD people... even if you finally get them to come around this time... there's always a next time, where it's the same old crap again.

[Guest]

Hi Amber, clarification:

Doesn't do us any good unless we know we're playing the game for an objective, an outcome. Even if playing makes us feel very very sick.

Sick with disgust, not shame. I mean the aggressive 'play them at their own game' in order to snooker them. In other words, use tactics against them which they may use: flattery, apparent 'feeding', being exceptionally false to obtain what we want - whatever our objective is. Maybe it is what you mean. I don't know. I wasn't very good at it at work because I can't maintain that level of falseness for long. It's so draining and stressful that it's not an everyday activity. But I guess that depends on the 'level' of playing needed. Maybe I did do it on a small level by not saying what I thought? I don't know. I find it difficult to remember who I was.

I mean something like breaking bread - and eating it - with your most dangerous opponent. That useful very human skill!

I meant this to be a quick one but....

Why do you always have to email, put things in writing?"

"I do it deliberately and specifically to annoy and upset you of course! Why else would I do it? You know how much you enjoy being annoyed with me! Now say 'thank you'."

[sKePTiKal]

Hahahahaha! I don't think he'd get the sarcasm or the joke or the point, none of the above Guest... nor the underlying subtext that I despise "talking" with him... because of the level of denial later on, passed off as "I don't remember saying that". It's as if I speak a foriegn language, many times, talking to him... I have to repeat what I said, incessantly, until I forget what I was trying to say. Perhaps that's his way of controlling a conversation out of existence... for whatever un- or semi-conscious reason. If he can frustrate someone so much that they give up and go away... he doesn't have to engage in the conversation, be accountable, responsible and doesn't have to admit that it's an important topic, nor make any decision -- and that's the ONLY thing that feeds his ego. Ironically - he came back after reading my letter and told me he didn't intend to make me think that my suggestions were unimportant to him. Funny how I got that idea after waiting a whole year for him to respond to the first suggestion and being put off yet again when I'd remind him, ya know? This kind of behavior is a good example of what I call "lack of self-awareness" -- it never occurs to PD people that they might impact other people and hurt their feelings (or worse)... trampling all over accepted social and business procedures... becoming an obstacle to any and every ongoing process... like some insentient & moronic Godzilla... until they've completely destroyed the things that are necessary to their own security, well-being, and bubble of denial.

The phrase "run amok" comes to mind. Or N-robo-zombie-vampire-pocalypse. (is that danceable?)


I understood what you meant about turning the game around. At work, I was able to do this without feeling shame, most of the time (I think after realizing that it could/would never be different... shame started to creep in). It was simply the only way to effectively move things ahead with my N-boss. It's the old, sadly-too-common FOOlament, when dealing with my family, I guess... that I "shouldn't" have to resort to this strategy with them. N-boss was an adult - but didn't act like it.

Ya know what though? I think I just "saw" something! In the same way I was taught to misinterpret "anticipation & excitement" feelings as "anxiety"... I think the same thing kinda happened with this shame I feel -- because someone else is F'd up. All the way back to the "original wound", in fact. The Yang to the Yin here, is that I am embarrassed by these people... ashamed OF them. They of course, can't feel shame - because that requires some self-awareness and the ability to admit doing "wrong". In the same way that I get "hooked" into the FOO fun & games through empathy... I also get snookered into taking on the shame that belongs to someone else.

Ah yes; because I wasn't allowed to have self-boundaries. Right. That's why I am such an important part of my mom's hoarding -- she's "saving it" for me... I need to "take it away" from her -- just like her projections onto me, of things that I was NOT -- and because I can feel the shame of her living space disaster - and she can't.

And it fell out of my mouth unconsciously, a post or two back: I cover up shame with anger... so there's my "warning signal" that the direct hook of empathy has been abandoned for new bait... make Amber mad; she'll feel shame... and then be responsible (the adult in the room)... and teach (me) us what to do... or do it herself... and then we can criticize her... humiliate her by making fun of her... accuse her of exactly what we do to her...

OH LORD. What was that you were saying, Guest about hungry lions? Run? Don't you mean run like hell?

There is one last piece to this scenario that I haven't talked to death so I can see what's behind/under it yet... and that's the impossibility of having an impact, initiating change... in someone who is PD and this un-self-aware or so far in denial. Hubs keeps saying Bro "will come around"... and I keep laughing at him, hysterically... at hubs' naivete. Sure, Bro agreed to my proposal this time... that doesn't mean he had a "come to Jesus" moment that has changed his life. Two months (or less) from now - we'll have another topic and I'll be right back to square one - and the same old, same old. I have seen it so many times... my new advisor agrees that this is more likely than that we've turned a corner and will work better together from now on. I really think she knows and has seen this personally, before.

I've been minding my boundaries about this. It's hardly my place to do more than I have done - suggest my brother enter therapy by himself (before addressing the marriage issues). I really don't need to beat myself up with guilt for having escaped the same fate as Bro... or for investing the time to sort all this out for ME... and it's not in my "contract" or "job description" to "take care of my bro", be his glorified admin assistant in the businesses, or otherwise shelter him from reality so he can remain in his self-serving little bubble of denial. No more taking care of sick people at the middle, for me...

I'm going to take care of me and the people who do care about me. Lighter asked awhile back to tell her how this works out for me. It's working out just fine so far, Light! It's difficult, I have to go to and face all the crap again of dealing with this strange dysfunction again - YES. But what I want and am working for is different, because I'm giving up on the possibility of having any impact on the dysfunction in MomBro. I am learning to not care about how screwed up it is... slowly trying to accept that there literally isn't a damn thing I can do about it.... EXCEPT take care of myself and let the other crap become DOA for me, emotionally. Yes, I have to do things I don't feel I should have to resort to. Yes, some of the things I'm learning I am and can do scare the living crap out of me -- because it's extreme and final and again, I had really hoped that it wouldn't come to this. It has - and there's nothing I can do about that except defend myself and fight back. Maybe it should've happened a long time ago.

I didn't really believe that I could be coldly rational, calculating and strategically patient enough to be able to put together a plan to finally sever my connection to that kind of dysfunction once and for all. It's not "nice" either. And it feels a bit horrible... but it will be fair. My mom and I used to argue about women in the military... she was of the opinion that women aren't able to go into combat; it's just not in their nature to kill, even when someone's shooting at them. (This contradicts her own violent & aggressive tendencies.) And I told her, if someone was threatening my home, family, myself - shooting at me, I damn well would shoot back. I won't like it... and it frightens me to know I have this ability to "go there"... but I'm not "going down" without a fight.

And that also applies to being impacted by the same rediculous passive-aggressive, dysfunctional crap of my brother's bubble of denial, too. That is almost a bigger threat to myself and well-being than being shot at and much more difficult, complex and expensive to defend against. But it can be done... pieces are falling into place, info is being assembled and digested, and it's close to getting down to just the timing factor...

And in the meantime - I still "lose" if it's occupying so much of my waking (and sleeping) existence. Time to let it go and move on to other things for awhile.

[Guest]

N-robo-zombie-vampire-pocalypse. (is that danceable?)

only if you split and emphasize as:

N-robo-zombie-vampire-poca-lypse
could be rave, could be rap, possibly a little space rock gnome lyric?

strategically patient

I'm going to think about this phrase. Right now I'm tending towards: and some have patience thrust upon them. Can one choose strategic patience? (I'm thinking it's forced learning.)

Nice one about the shame. Leave it where it belongs!

[sKePTiKal]

The unconscious "need" to recreate old scripts that I've seen in MomBro and that I fell into myself... reminded me of a book I read years ago that illustrates this splendidly - "The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin", by P.D. Ouspensky. I'm pretty sure it was this book that attracted Bill Murray to the script for Ground Hog Day. It's a little longer than short-story length; a very short novel. I don't recall much of the book, anymore - except this one underlying element to the story. It's an artifact from a very strange time period and school of "thought".

I used to think I could collect enough of those strange ideas to solve my own "puzzle". But I was reading the wrong artifacts!  Should've been reading my own, all along. But don't you know? That was also included in the group of things that were taboo - off limits - don't go there. Why? Because it was "self" oriented... self exploration, self knowledge, self inquiry, self examination, self image, self esteem, self - ish and egotistical... to have boundaries and an independent "self" in my FOO. What MomBro said about me, told me, was considered more "authoritative", more true, more "right"... than what I saw and felt about myself. That was where my resistance frontline was... that was what my mom was going "break" in me... the nascent "self" that was emerging and solidifying and being experimented with as I chose what "fit" for me... from what was me and around me.

So - strategic patience... for me, means the decision I made to not leave the "insane house" until I graduated high school and to find ways to survive and cope and sort out this crap. To wait patiently until things had lined up that I needed, to have some chance of success. Timing - being legal age was critical. Reading as much of those strange ideas as I could lay my hands on; including the complete works of Shakespeare, including the sonnets - twice. Classics were included. Non-Fiction too... I even read things like Popular Science... feeding a curiosity in mechanical things, engineering, science... right alongside Sci-Fi. I read Dune, too... but except for a short poem about fear... nothing stuck with me from that; I wasn't overly engaged by the story.

Strategic patience - is knowing how "drama" works and the key points of the script that's currently being re-enacted with MomBro - and what is the same; what is different. Strategic patience stands outside and watches - because it's not always helpful to be in the midst of the drama with the distractions and the speed of emotions lobbed like exploding rocks. This kind of patience anticipates (we've been here before anyway) where the warp in time/space - opportunity; change - is and researches what word or action is best suited to achieve the results I am still choosing. There is also lots of time for self-reflection... letting things settle and looking at the situation from every angle one can possibly think of - and then asking what hasn't been thought of; what don't I know?

That way, when one of those warps in time/space show up - I'm prepared and ready and have pre-selected (as best as possible; it's not a 100% thing) what my action will be - if any. It includes much listening... to silence... to wisps of thoughts, ideas, fears and desires... and to other people talk. The topic doesn't matter; if I'm paying attention I hear many, many important things. I "try out" scenarios on trusted people... to get their feedback, see what they see, and what I haven't seen.

Sun Tzu said: Know yourself, as well as you know your opponent. Because if I'm planning on taking any action, I'd better have a pretty good idea what I hope to accomplish with it, and how. If I don't know this, how will I recognize the correct timing? It can't simply be instinctive re-action - defensive or offensive. Taking any action - including none - means I am also a player in the drama; but this time I'm writing my own part instead of having it shoved down my throat and into my head. I know my motives have to be "clean"; no anger or revenge; I have to be absolutely clear and committed to my goal - no self-doubt or hesitation or wavering or second-guessing. I have to be able to live with myself and the result afterward. It has to be fair. And I'm sure already that I'm not going to be able to anticipate everything; every result... it's simply not possible to predict where the last ripple of a pebble cast in water will stop.

I am busier now than I ever have been. Internally, again... but with a purpose. It's not just whirling dervish worry anymore. And yes, training... taking on the issue of self-care habits... obliquely... organically... all at the same time as I'm reviewing what my options are; timing; waiting... for things to start coming together on their own first. It's working... albeit slowly... but I think that just might be the real pace of what we humans experience as massive, surprising and shocking, radical change... one it's already happened.

For the first time in months - I actually have some hours of pure solitary solitude and I've missed it. I need to get hubs out of the house (or go myself) more often.

[Hopalong]

Hi Amber,
My D is reuniting with her brothers around the terminal condition of her former stepmother. It's very sad but also moving, as she had missed them (they had dumped her, just in self absorption, after their father, my ex, died).

And you know my brother story. He is beyond N, a sociopath. Malevolent and crazy. (I survived that battle but life was rearranged forever.)

Reason for all that preamble is I wanted to ask something: when you use the term MomBro, I wonder if he becomes more demonized when he is swept into that specifically spirit-breaking history you had with her as a result of her denying what happened to you?

I'm not saying he's a healthy personality--at all--I think you've described plenty of ways in which he also denies reality.

But I ask because when I think back to various remarks he's made that you've mentioned, he doesn't sound like a bad human being. Or one who wishes you harm.

Something about the term "MomBro" makes me wonder if you might perhaps be demonizing him. And, there's money in it...the business. That distorts everything.

I totally applaud the idea of you extracting yourself from a business relationship with him. I just wonder if you could do it and let him remain your brother? One day your mother will be gone. I don't think it sounds as though he'd ever be a very functional or helpful figure in your life...but just because he does not sound evil (only inept), I wondered if you might like to have him in your life, at all, in future. (Not in a fantasy way, but in a limited but real way of continuing to be related.)

Your feelings now are warlike and I know money can mean war, I'm still healing my battle wounds. I am just not understanding--perhaps because it's too awkward to explain here, no worries about that--why you can't buy him out, make the business itself buy YOU out, or whatever it is ... so you can get out of the business but without having a new monster in your life. (And, more importantly, in your imagination, for lifelong rumination.)

Or maybe your brother IS monstrous, and I've failed to grasp how. (I get the impression he's a bit dim, passive aggressive, lousy communicator...but I've also heard statements that sound like good intentions toward you. Maybe I was just reading that in? But if that's true, a little good can go a long way.)

Just thinking about the warlike feelings you're having now...I'm wondering if using "MomBro" is serving you. Merging them does dehumanize them more. It seems to escalate the "war". I think your mother's denial of your trauma WAS monstrously destructive to you. But I haven't yet quite grasped how your brother has done anything to the same level...?

He's been uncooperative, stubborn, inattentive, and frustrating. But has he really been wanting to hurt you, or is he himself triggered by pressure...and his passive aggressive stuff is just his own wounded child trying to handle something he can't handle well?

I don't know if there's a peaceful resolution to the business thing. But I wish you one.

Shorter-winded, I just am wondering if Mom and Bro could occupy separate spaces in your mind, rather than a demonic monolith.

And I don't know the answer. No "shoulds".

love,
Hops

[Guest]

A great description of what you meant Amber by strategic patience. And I agree with Hops about my reaction to the symbolic joining of mom and Bro. It helps me to keep people very separate, because that's what they are. Otherwise I might get carried away!

[ann3]

Hey Amber,
I'm just riffing on the business aspect of the situation.  You're in a 50-50 partnership with your brother, who is P/A & unwilling/unable to meaningfully discuss the business with you.  I think I read that you have a new adviser.  Can you/do you want to buy out your bro?  Are the business assets substantial?  Could you just walk away, take a tax loss & carry the tax loss forward for future years?  Could you/ would you/do you want to go to court & force a sale of assets?  Are the business assets worth fighting for?  If you were to fight for them, would you be left with enough $ to justify the fight?  What is your easiest & most sensible way out of all this crap, so you can free yourself?  I'm not looking for you to respond to me with answers, but to review these questions in your own mind & heart. 

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Ann - I am working with some people to help me answer ALL those questions... because I do not know what will happen in the future, nor how it will happen. I need as much info as I can get. That's my "trust in God, but tie your camel" approach that I've always been very glad to have done in uncertain situations in the past. Doing my homework... pays off.

Hops - your point is well taken. Perhaps part of me is too tempted to demonize him, and that's not really serving my own self-interest either, as you also pointed out. The conjoined "MomBro" works for me... to represent the extremely co-dependent and closed nature of how mom is telling bro what to think, feel, do. But the fact of how my "relationship" with bro solo works - is that I do all the real "work" -- and find a way to explain it all, in terms he can comprehend -- and then, am at the mercy of whether or not he will decide rationally or get stuck in a "why is it this way and not that loop"... where his view of reality precludes anyone else's having any merit. The recent "success" of my proposal is the aberration; not the general rule of how things work -- altho' I did take the time to explain as much of the "big picture" as I could for him... because he doesn't take an interest, is not engaged, and thinks doing nothing is always the best decision. In other words, he's forcing me into the "mom" role... where he's not responsible or can plausibly deny responsibility.

Ann's questions are things I need to answer before I consider a decision to extract myself from the business relationship. It takes a good bit of time to answer those questions. That is an extreme action - and I already know that it will destroy any possibility of a personal connection with bro in the future. It's effectively also an NC action. When I search my soul... I know that he is also a victim; like you say - he has his own hurt inner child. And I can feel sorry for him and empathize. But he remains completely in denial about it - is totally unaware (I think) of how this is affecting his relationships. And then demonizes me in all kind of triggering ways... and so keeps our relationship somewhere on the level of a 10 yr old boy and his 12 yr old sister. I know I want a relationship with an adult brother - personally; which hasn't happened over 2 years of re-connection and supposedly both of being involved in this transition, together. We're not "together". I want an adult partner, that I can brainstorm and what-if with -- without being attacked for some totally irrelevant (but triggering nonetheless) emotional reason.

He is an adult GC; he has little knowledge of or patience for the adult world of business, finance, etc. He didn't have to grow up, because mom was always there to tell him what do or think - even when she didn't know either - she "knew" how it all it worked. He doesn't have a relationship with his wife (according to her)... and has created a job situation for himself, where he's rarely at home with his kids... he relies on my mom to counter the evil ideas or rediculous habits his wife tries to impart to her kids (no triangulation there, huh?).

At the beginning of the last two years of "partnership" with him, I realized he still hadn't changed or grown up. It terrified me then because I could see what might be coming in the future with and for him, but more than anything I felt an obligation to try to help him get help. I started to recommend therapy. When the marriage counselor told him he was married to his mother - he denied it, of course and don't you know his schedule changed in such a way that he could no longer go to sessions? He doesn't think much of therapy, at this point.

His life might just come completely unravelled in the next few months - and mom's not in good health either. The last thing I want to do is kick the guy when he's down, IF that comes to pass. The funny thing I've observed about people with this sort of and extent of denial, is that they somehow don't experience the same kind of consequences as other people... the way we would. On the other hand... his lack of knowledge and engagement and refusal to take my input seriously and decide things in a reasonable timeframe... IF the worst comes to pass in his personal life... would certainly leave him even less competent than he already is.

Perhaps, as hubs believes, he's "come to his senses" and the current amiable agreement to my prosposal will persist and we can forge ahead without a change of relationship. I am concerned that he seems not able to remember at all, things he's told me - about his own wants and plans; denies it completely as if he never said them. I have already witnessed bro flip from one personality to another, a few times... so it seems reasonable for me to anticipate that this current better state of affairs is temporary. Even if I initiate nothing.

So... I won't initiate anything without justification and a defendable "stalemate" or "deadlock". It was my dad's intent that we share and keep the business together. However, it's a complex process if I do feel forced into that situation... and so I have the luxury of doing a thorough investigation into what this will entail, cost, and the effects it will have on both of us. AND... if SIL does call it quits with him, it's a different situation that I also have to throughly understand and possibly, defend the company against. When mom dies - that's a whole 'nother situation - that's impossible for me to try to anticipate how it will affect him.

I feel sorry my brother, Hops. But we haven't had a relationship since Twiggy disappeared into her box. And even she has issues with him, too... though I'm getting her to let those go. I won't lose much if we part ways; I won't miss him. I doubt he'll miss me - except in my role as stand-in mom. And I ain't doing that anymore... it just gets me beat up again. So, for the time being, we're locked into this odd connection... and some days, it does take a toll on me.

That's why I think it's time to move on to another topic; going to shut this one down now. This doesn't need to continue to occupy so much of my time and attention - even though it will be an on-going thing.