the really old N's

[OnlyMe]

So I said,
(approx) " You and I have serious issues which we will probably never resolve and we can not live together." I fell apart on the weekend. I don't know if it was the strain of such truthfulness. She seems absolutely fine -

((Les))  I didn't get a chance to respond when I read this, but have time today - Good for you, for behing honest about your feelings in saying what you did to your NM.  No wonder you were drained after that visit.  It takes a huge amount of energy preparing to visit the NM, going over all the scenarios that might happen, practicing snappy retorts to have them at the ready, then trying to remember any of them when the NM says something from out of left field....  I guess I am trying to say "I know what you mean" and no wonder you fell apart, just as I did after my pennance on the weekend.  It takes every single ounce of energy, mental gymnastics, correct posture and perfect facial expressions, not to even mention planning what to wear.....I could go on and on with the preparations required before a visit, not to mention the torture of trying to stay one step ahead of the NM, always trying to do the right thing out of respect, and then, when it is all over, there inevitably are wounds, emotional scabs that have been ripped off.....
I was sooo drained, and I feel for you and what you are going through with Herself these days.  I am learning from you, and today I hope you can feel some strength from me.  I have my zip back today, so I can share some energy with you and everyone here, at last.  That is the only good news I can share at the moment, but let's keep propping one another up - it will all be worth it in the end, someday.
And the worst part is the truth in your last comment, for it is the same with my NM : They are Just Fine!  Mine doesn't even know there is a problem!  She just happens to have a difficult child  !!!

[les]

Hi Only Me and thanks again for your support.  I just read your post about visiting your NM and spending the next day in bed.  So I feel like I can admit to that too.  I can't believe it really. Like someone just emptied the tank, siphoned off every ounce of energy.  My H was quite worried and asked kindly if I was still talking to the board! On these days I can't find my way to the board. Just this second I got an image of someone rocking and moaning. I don't do that but maybe that's what being in bed is about.  

I have often thought I could and would gladly care for a NICE old woman. I could do it every day I think, no problem. But this woman robs me - robs me of what.? Must start putting on more of that thick skin Bunny talks about.

Les

[OnlyMe]

My GP was the first one to pick up on the possibility that many of my health issues were manifestations of an abusive upbringing, and he recommended a book.  I remember that he hesitated and said that he might  be taking a chance in prescribing that I read "People of the Lie, the hope for healing human evil" by M.Scott Peck, MD.

I thought I'd mention that book here, because it was the very first step in my journey towards the Truth.  As I read the book, I saw myself in so many pages, and I think the thing that startled me the most is that there is a possibility that not only is there N in the world, but there is also evil.  And, Les, sometimes I have even wondered if one of the reasons that being with my NM makes me physically sick is that maybe there is an aura of evil around her, and I bring some of it home with me.  Not to worry, I am completely sane, but the power to destroy the essence of who I am seems totally out of proportion to the little old woman who stands before me.  And her eyes are like snake eyes, small, cold, calculating, nasty eyes that bore right through me.  I guess I am always searching for an understanding of the extraordinary power that some of these N's seem to possess, and how that little old N woman can suck the very life from this strong, intelligent, kind, loving woman.  My MD also warned me that when an evil soul senses that the victim is getting stronger, that the vengeance can come back ten-fold.  Anyway, the book is an interesting read, and like I said, I saw myself in it time and time again, and it was helpful in opening my eyes, and helpful in starting me on this healing journey.
Just sharing all of this in hopes that it might help.

[Anonymous]

I can identify with all that's been said here regarding aging N parents.  Somebody mentioned the book Why Is It Always About You?  Great book.  The author talks about how N characteristics increase at warp speed with the aging proceess  1)because they feel their  all important control slipping away, and 2) because their body and mind are betraying them, no longer the healthy, sexy, strong and superior specimens they've always believed themselves to be.  I mean, a look in the mirror can be a reality check for any of us, but especially so if you've always considered yourself above the laws of nature that apply to "average people".

With my mother, it was like she always wore a mask of  some restraint and socally appropriate pretense, and as she aged that mask slowly melted away, leaving nothing but the horrible truth of who she really is revealed underneath.  

Stillstanding

[OnlyMe]

Hi Stillstanding
That is a really good book, too.  Now that you have discovered all of us,  and N, you'll find yourself drawn to these types of books - and isn't it wonderfol to learn that You are not the Crazy One?!  My NMom is 85 but thinks that loads of makeup and blingbling will take 20yrs off her appearance, and she is spending tons o bucks on expensive clothes - all a desperate effort to hold onto her appearance, for in her world Appearance Is Everything.  She shudders when I arrive in my jeans, or when dressed up, in my jean skirt.  She has often shoved money into my hand begging me to go out and buy something decent to wear! Trust me, I look just fine, but not up to her lofty  imaginary standards.  Just like Seeker was saying in another thread - it is all about appearance, snobbery, being noticed by the 'right' people, rubbing shoulders with the mucky-mucks, etc ...   What a waste of energy!  I think that is why I try to see the Good in people, way inside people, not what they are wearing, or the size of their house.  I love nice things, but it is not who I am.
Geeze, there I go, starting on a rant!

With my mother, it was like she always wore a mask of some restraint and socally appropriate pretense,

 My NMom is still holding onto that mask, never laughing, never even smiling - it causes those little wrinkle lines around the mouth and eyes, she says!  Well, give me a face with laugh lines, any day!

[Anonymous]

I think I told you guys about my moms recent bout with plastic surgery.  It is embarrassing that she looks the same age as I am but there is a 20 year difference.  NO - she looks younger than I am!

All to keep that edge..................................yuck!  It's embarrassing to have a mother that looks better than you do!

Kelly

[Portia]

Hi Only Me

Have you read M Scott Pecks’s other book: ‘The Road Less Travelled’? Might help you think about yourself more, rather than in relation to your mom (why should it always be about them?!) Focusing on the external ‘evil’ helps in learning to recognise it and deflect it (rather than allow it to affect you), but it might not help you much in your self-awareness. Accentuate the positive, kind of thing!

Is your MD religious? Just wondering. In my experience doctors don’t usually talk about ‘evil souls’. I don’t believe in ‘evil’ as a thing in itself. I think people choose to do good or evil/wicked acts. The acts themselves are good or bad, not the person.

I can choose to see some of my mother’s actions (actions arising out of hate, fear, envy, shame, selfishness) as simply evil, or I can see those actions as coming from a very sick person who deserves pity.

But the first priority is to protect myself. I know I don’t want to be rude, cruel or heartless to my mother – otherwise I’d tell her my truth and let her think of that whatever she wants to, without worrying about it. I know if I communicate with her, I’m going to allow myself to get drawn into her world, her version of truth. I find her world upsetting; she can’t see that and I won’t accept her as she is, because it hurts me. I can’t not see her as my mother.

So that’s not good for me right now. For me it’s easier to not talk very much and maintain a big emotional distance (the emotional distance is my choice and my action; there’s no emotion coming my way from her). A bit like dealing with someone you don’t like at work – do the minimum and don’t take anything personally. Easy to say, very very difficult to do.

And it’s so difficult trying to condition myself not to keep looking for that scrap of ‘love’. Like a dependant eager puppy, ready to jump through a hoop for just the slightest promise of a ‘well done’. Yuk! And while I know in my head it’s never going to happen, my heart hasn’t quite caught up yet. I dunno. There seems to be a little stone of sadness resting there, making itself comfortable. I guess I just need to accept that little stone as part of me.

Anyway, I went off on one there, it might make sense, might not, whatever, just Thursday thoughts….cheers, P

[OnlyMe]

Hi Portia, Oh Wise One!
Thank you for taking the time to respond to the Evil issue, and I Hear You.  I appreciate your perspective - what a healthy perspective.  Somehow I get sidetracked trying to help and fix and analyze my NM to such an extent that I forget about taking care of myself!  Guess that has been drilled into me, so it is my first reaction.  But, I'll be reading your post over and over until it sinks in!  (I'm not sure if my MD is religious or not, because he only spoke in generalities about evil, not religion - but at least he recognized the abuse symnptoms, and it was a way to start peeling off the layers to get at the Truth, and I'll always be grateful to him for that, for it has helped save my life, in so many ways.)
I have The Road Less Travelled sitting on the shelf, beside the other book, but have not read it yet - will start it today!  Thanks for the nudge.
I seem to be strong until a scrap of something like Love is tossed my way by Herself, and then I hold onto it in hopes that This Time Things Will Be Different - but, of course, it never is.  I try to cope with it all, much the way you do, and I think we're on the right track, under the circumstances.  It helps to feel like I'm moving forward, now, not just treading water trying to keep from drowning.
I appreciate your Thursday Thoughts!  I'm all the better for them.

ps: Hey Les, Great Thread!  Thanks!  I have a feeling this one will keep going forever, or until there are no longer really old N's in the world, whichever comes first!

[Frustrated]

Gosh you guys, I can sure relate to that "sucked dry" feeling and having to go to bed after a visit with the Nfolks.  I really feel for you - and I thought I was the only one who got the life sucked out of them by her parents.  I thought I was just odd, or something.  When I used to live near them, I was required to visit often (often = way more than I wanted to, and way less than they demanded).  The 2 days or so before a planned visit, my eye would start twitching.  And generally didn't stop until the visit was over.  I'd always make sure to visit on a Saturday because I always knew I'd be completely useless the next day and I didn't want to be completely useless at work

Every required visit I'd arrive as late as I thought I could possibly get away with, because anytime I'd try to get up and say well, this has been fun but I think I'll be leaving they'd find some obnoxious reason to keep me there (I used to have a real hard time getting away from them once I was there and I couldn't seem to combat that - but I did work on that and its not such an issue anymore).  Anyway, I'd be about ready to lay down on the floor at their house and go to sleep, I'd be so drained, and I KNOW they could see that, and still they would refuse to "let" me leave, not until every ounce of life force had been sucked out, I guess.  And once I'd successfully get away, I wouldn't feel any relief, because I knew I was just going to have to go through this same game again sooner than I'd like.  I'd get home, go straight to bed, and likely sleep till noon the next day, and be all out of sorts for the rest of the day.

They ruined more of my weekends than I care to admit

Now, as it happens, I no longer live near them, but have agreed to come visit for Thanksgiving weekend.  I won't be staying with them (this is bothering them greatly).  There is NO WAY I could survive that.  But just the idea of 3 .... days.... in... a....row.  I think I'm going to have to buy alcohol for my hotel room .  And yesterday, my eye started twitching.  Sigh.

[stillstanding]

les, only me, and others,  I'm so glad I found all of you.  Your visits with your N parents sound just like mine.   I'm sometimes too whacked out to move for about 24 hours.  After one particularly difficult confrontation I got a bladder infection within 24 hours.  Coincidence?  I think not.
   
OM, you mentioned evil.  There are times when I visit them when I can almost palpate the evil in the room.  YOu mentioned your mother's countenance..beady eyes, etc.   My mother's expression comes closest to the Grinch...heavy lidded, calculating, unsettling.

One idea I've encountered is to try to remain pliable around them so that I don't snap like a rigid twig in the breeze.  My mother is no breeeze, she's a damned hurricane.   I try not to be on guard, therefore, but to simply remember just who they are and what they're capable of.

And finally, yes, yes, yes, I hear those of you who keep looking for a scrap of affection that proves we were beloved children after all.   Hope springs eternal, I guess.  Lately I've tried to counter with this by concentrating on the healthy love I do have in my life , trying not to yearn for that which I can never have.  I have found love in my life that is given so easily and unconditionally, it makes me realize how hard I've always worked at trying to earn and deserve and maintain my parent's love.  It's crazy making!

Thanks again to all of you out there who hear care and understand.

Stillstanding

[les]

I really like these images -bending in the breeze and swinging that cape around.

Got gorred a bit today but I do believe I am learning how dance away from the horns.  As we were rolling along the highway I thought, hmmm, this seems to be going ok, but I wonder if I could just throw this car into park and leap out!  Used some Lamaze breathing techniques and focused intently on the tail lights in front!

Oh Frustrated - I'm so sorry about that Inspector Cluzo eye of yours! It did make me laugh though!  Reminds me of a book -"When the body says No!

Today's conversation: NM: "Well, my teeth cleaning didn't hurt as much this time. They didn't have to scrape as much because they have this special purple light and high pressure water.... (10 minutes later) The dentist is such a dear. He rushed in and said how delighted he was to see me and that he always has so much fun when I come, He said I have such a great sense of humour... blah, blah, (10 more minutes) So they used a laser and some purple light so it didn't hurt very much and they didn't have to do so much.. ( she can't think of the word) so the daughter speaks...here it comes) "Scraping?"  Now, you would think this might be a fair guess. But I am able to predict with much certainty now what comes next and it did. NM: "Oh No! They certainly had to do a lot of scraping!"  I would say this is dementia, but  if it is she has had it all her life.  Ah me.  I don't entirely GET IT but at least I SEE IT and let it blow on by now.

Let's go over to Seeker's and get some cookies!

Les

[OnlyMe]

I'm way behind in reading posts, but want to jump in and touch base!
That dentist story reminded me of a funny episode on my last visit with NM when I took an old friend with me.  When we got out of the car, NM threw open her arms to greet my friend, saying that she was like NM's second daughter, drama, tears, drama, gag gag gag.  My friend was with me to watch my back, and didn't get sucked in.  Anyhow, later while we three were having tea at the kitchen table, NM was talking on and on and then pointed to my friend and said something like "...just like The Girl said this morning..."   She called her supposedly special new Second Daughter "The Girl" to her face, at the table!  "The Girl!!"   Oh, yes, how special to be treated like another daughter!  Oh, yes, it looks like dementia, but I fear it is just full blown N.
It really is amazing to watch the NPD in action, now that I know what I am seeing.  Amazing and very very scary.
Thank gawd we're in this together, Dear Kindred Spirits.  What a comfort to not be walking this path alone, anymore.

(I'd like Oatmeal Raisin...!)

[les]

"The Girl" - I can see how that fits N-vision - no real sense of the other as an important distinct individual with a name!  

Good to see you on the board OnlyMe.  I was a little worried.  My god, it's true, I DO worry too much. But still, it's good to hear about your strategies for dealing with NM. Need to keep one step ahead!

Les

[OnlyMe]

Hi Les,
Thanks for worrying - I was worrying a bit about you at the same time, with your NM and the SW and all the changes that might be happening with that situation.  Tell you what - even when I'm feeling bogged down, I'll be sure to look for you here!  Sometimes I grow weary trying to get through the mental gymnastics on some of the other threads and before I reply to something, I just log off.  Otherwise I'd be jumping into the middle of each and every thread trying to help 'fix' things, as I'm wont to do!  (Part of that 'always being to blame for everything wrong in the world, even the weather', and then standing on my head trying to change it!!).  
I'm off to a meeting, but, like I said somewhere else, I'm here for the long haul - okay?!  Hope I can help you as much as you help me - hopefully it will all even out over time. There MUST be a light at the end of the tunnel. I can almost see it from here!

[les]

Hi Only Me

I know what you mean- weary is the word.  Good to know you'll keep reporting in!

Les