Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Twoapenny on May 20, 2019, 02:53:27 AM

Title: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 20, 2019, 02:53:27 AM
I feel that I need a thread to keep me focused on what I feel I need to work on so that I don't keep getting distracted when other things come up and so that I've got some sort of anchor point to come back to when I start to lose my way.  I hesitate to call it a gratitude or positivity thread (I've gone right off all that recently) but I think I need a place where I can put down what I'm doing that's constructive and (hopefully) focusing me on getting towards a better relationship with myself and with other people.  And, of course, it would be lovely if any of you wanted to join me with your own care of self/care with others type things as well :)

So - to start off.  I want to keep reminding myself that it's reciprocal relationships that I want and not to get bogged down by the ones that aren't.  I met a friend yesterday and it was lovely, but it was initiated by me.  I want to try and put that into the 'it was a nice few hours' box and not get weighed down by anything else about it.

I am enjoying the three groups I've started going to - the parents/carers at both special needs related groups are lovely and I definitely want to keep those up.  The people at the sustainability group are lovely and I also want to get more involved in that, particularly their allotment project which sounds like fun.  I've booked son and I up for a drumming group in a couple of weeks' time; I've spoken to the chap and he seems nice and is happy about son going so that is another good thing to focus on.

We have an appointment today with the osteopath, who is lovely, and then we have the cinema and the staff there are always nice.  We might catch the bus; I'm not sure about timings yet but will have a look and see what we can do.

I am trying to look after myself better.  I was awake at 4.30am this morning and although I haven't managed to get back to sleep, I have done things in bed rather than getting up.  I think I need to spend more time sitting in bed and less time sitting in front of the telly.  I miss reading; I don't do it anywhere near as much as I used to so that is also my aim for today.

I think that will do for now :)  Feel free to chime in with any things you are doing for yourself that you are finding helpful and making life smiley :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on May 20, 2019, 09:43:07 AM
Lovely thread idea, Tupp!

It's wonderful how you were able to look at a very nice few hours with a friend (that you initiated) and see them as "a very nice few hours." Over time, with one person or another, a few will begin to take a more solid shape. And there's NOTHING wrong with discussing reciprocity in a calm way with new people.

Just as a getting-to-know-you subject people sometimes talk about. Every person you meet has had some situation in their life that has felt out of balance in that way. Every person you meet has felt hurt or lonely or left out sometime.

Sometimes these days when I meet a new person, we can find ourselves talking about making friends as adults, and how that's different for older people. I'll say something like, "I know people can make new friends at any age, but I've noticed it's harder now that I'm XX years old and in a new place, with a dependent adult child. I've really enjoyed meeting you and the XX group folks!" And then in a bit you could say, "One thing I've figured out is I want reciprocal friendships in my life. Not 50-50, nobody can manage that...but enough so you know the interest is mutual. You know what I mean?"

(I promise, the other person will say, Yes...) Then, back to you...

"How about you, how does that work in your life?"

Some people will be open and even eager to talk about friendships. I think it's especially helpful to talk about it consciously before a pattern is set. Practice on the new people! If someone seems to avoid the subject, then no harm no foul...they're just maybe not a good candidate for building a reciprocal connection.

I'm excited for you Tupp. Remember never to take any individual event as proving a global negative. Let it keep coming and going with more people, and expect more and less effectiveness. It's the pattern you're changing, not the particulars.

love
Hops

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 20, 2019, 01:58:56 PM
Thanks, Hops :)  I think those are good conversations to have with people as I get to know them and then I think, once I've got a bit more of a social life in place and some more people in my life (casual or otherwise) I might feel braver about having the conversation with current friends as well.  Sort of feel I need a bit of a safety net before risking laying myself bare and the response not being good :)  But all steps in the right direction and I think those sort of conversations with new people are a good way to know whether to bare a bit more or that's enough :)  I do tend to focus more on the negatives than the positives, I think, which is why I thought a separate constructive thread would keep me focused on what's going well and what I can do that's constructive (rather than wallowing).

So - we've been to the library - the staff are lovely and have let my son join in their reading programme, even though technically he's too old.  But they know how much he loves to read and that his reading level is lower than his age so they're doing a programme where the kids go in and chat to one of the librarians about the books they've read.  They keep a chart and get badges as they get to certain numbers so he's almost at badge two :)  They're really sweet and he really enjoys it so that was great.  Then he had his osteopathy appointment and she's absolutely lovely and has gifted him a stereo!  She's having a clear out and it's surplus to requirements so I'm collecting it for him on Friday (he's chuffed to bits).  We've been to the cinema and the staff in there are lovely as well and got us the last two tickets for the show he wants to see tomorrow night so that's also been great.  And my nice, reciprocal friend has been in touch for a catch up.  So lots of good things - I'm tired but in a good way.  Time for a bath soon.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on May 20, 2019, 11:47:17 PM
It sounds like you are doing A LOT of social activity!

Reciprocal relationships is something that I can't say much about really. I rarely take a lot of initiate because I feel lazy or tired. One old coworker kept asking me to go to the gym with her but god I didn't feel like it. When I do go to the gym alone it was not a social type of activity for me. I like to slink around do my thing shower and leave the gym.

Another friend I go to the movies with a lot. Most of the time it's me pestering her to get out and go. I don't feel bad about being the person to initiate. I think she likes going to do stuff even if she doesn't initiate it. She is a real dorky odd ball and I think I feel most comfortable hanging out with her because maybe she doesn't have any expectations... IDK  She was one of my nicest and friendliest coworkers even though people don't get her. So I decided to try keeping up with her.

Maybe some people just aren't initiators.

Then another older co-worker of mine who I really like asked me to meet her for coffee sometime, I just haven't picked up the ball. Why?  Because I'm lazy? I don't even know why. I am sort of stressed and pre-occupied with the things "I SHOULD" do this week. I will meet her eventually.

Hum. Fug.... Now I am thinking about how I should make a greater effort.

I wouldn't say any of these people are close. I guess I'm not really expecting sister or high school close. Sigh and shrug.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 21, 2019, 12:37:33 AM
It sounds like you are doing A LOT of social activity!

Reciprocal relationships is something that I can't say much about really. I rarely take a lot of initiate because I feel lazy or tired. One old coworker kept asking me to go to the gym with her but god I didn't feel like it. When I do go to the gym alone it was not a social type of activity for me. I like to slink around do my thing shower and leave the gym.

Another friend I go to the movies with a lot. Most of the time it's me pestering her to get out and go. I don't feel bad about being the person to initiate. I think she likes going to do stuff even if she doesn't initiate it. She is a real dorky odd ball and I think I feel most comfortable hanging out with her because maybe she doesn't have any expectations... IDK  She was one of my nicest and friendliest coworkers even though people don't get her. So I decided to try keeping up with her.

Maybe some people just aren't initiators.

Then another older co-worker of mine who I really like asked me to meet her for coffee sometime, I just haven't picked up the ball. Why?  Because I'm lazy? I don't even know why. I am sort of stressed and pre-occupied with the things "I SHOULD" do this week. I will meet her eventually.

Hum. Fug.... Now I am thinking about how I should make a greater effort.

I wouldn't say any of these people are close. I guess I'm not really expecting sister or high school close. Sigh and shrug.

Aw, your dorky odd ball friend sounds great, G, film buddies are always good, it's nice having someone to chat to about the film afterwards.  Yes, some people do initiate more than others, you've got a lot on your plate at the minute so maybe you're just not in the right head space for meeting people for coffee at the minute.  I don't think you're lazy, you've got a lot whirring through your mind and it can be hard to focus on social stuff when you've got lots of proper stuff to do.  We have got a lot of social stuff going on!  I kind of feel like I need to push myself at the minute and I find it easier to get out and about over the summer when the weather's better (bad weather is a good excuse for me to stay indoors and eat biscuits).  So I'm trying to get myself into lots of good routines now so I can stick to it over the winter.  Plus where we live now is so beautiful, there's literally a dozen beaches within an hour of my house and a lot of them are quiet and stunning rather than packed full of tourist type beaches.  You'll be up for meeting your other co-worker once some other things have settled for you a bit, G, I sure.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 21, 2019, 12:40:49 AM
I'm practising taking time to respond - that's my reciprocal relationship with myself at the minute :)  A friend got in touch about meeting up; I do want to see her but the last three times I've tried to meet up she's either not got back to me or she's got back to me after the thing I invited her to has happened :)  So I do want to see her but my natural urge (on getting her text) is to say, "yes, of course, when are you free?" and arrange what I'm doing to suit.  I don't really want to do that so much any more so I'm holding off replying and I actually think I want to spend some time resting up at the moment and getting a bit of work done on the house.  So I might give myself a couple of weeks grace and tell her I'll give her a shout towards the end of the month or something.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 21, 2019, 09:01:13 AM
Having a "social life" requires (sometimes) being a master schedule juggler. At least, if you're participating in the decision-making. Sometimes, I find that to be just "one more thing I have to do"... and working on a future schedule, I'm unsure of committing myself - because something all-consuming for me might come up, I might be super-tired at that time and just need to veg, etc.

I only have one friend at the moment that we even try to schedule things; and it usually involves her coming out here to get away for a weekend. I'm not enjoying any of my time going "over the mountain" and the city I used to live in, at all. I'm even on "will call" for my hair appt now.

I kinda like the arrangement Hol has with her friends. They pick a standard day, time & place for a group of them to get together over coffee at a cafe. People show up as they can - or don't - as the case may be. Even former house guest is part of that group now. It doesn't replace the one on one interactions, but is just always there, for people looking to connect.

I self-validate in the process that happens when I'm looking at things I want done - go do them - and then enjoy the improvement. There are only a few people that I actively reach out to these days, when I just need someone to lean on and moan to over the normal life-stuff. And I appreciate that everyone I know is mostly really busy with their own family, busy lives, work on themselves or physical training... so I may just "check in" from time to time, as I think about them and that seems to be quite enough "socializing" for me.

With Holly here, and Steve here a lot too... and their busy schedules, I'm always having to coordinate what's going on with dog sitting, holding down the fort here, etc. Sometimes they're not here at all for days... and I have some solitude back. But we just go with the flow and it's all pretty casual and easy.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on May 21, 2019, 04:44:08 PM
A big part of meeting up is how close or how easy it is to get together. I think this is why people sometimes become friends with neighbors is because they are right there nearby. When people are young and in school together they are there nearby. One of the smaller towns I lived in had such a strong community vibe because it was a college town but also because it's easier to get to know people in certain areas.

I dread getting on the bus and venturing out into the chaos if I don't have to. I mean once I do it I'm glad I got out.

Sometimes staying home is productive!! We just can't do it all the time I guess. 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 22, 2019, 09:26:15 AM
A big part of meeting up is how close or how easy it is to get together. I think this is why people sometimes become friends with neighbors is because they are right there nearby. When people are young and in school together they are there nearby. One of the smaller towns I lived in had such a strong community vibe because it was a college town but also because it's easier to get to know people in certain areas.

I dread getting on the bus and venturing out into the chaos if I don't have to. I mean once I do it I'm glad I got out.

Sometimes staying home is productive!! We just can't do it all the time I guess.

Yes practicalities of getting together can always make things difficult, although equally keeping in touch can be by phone or email if the physical distance makes things difficult.  Neighbours can be great or you might want to hide from them lol.  We've had some lovely ones and some awful ones.  The current lot are not too bad :)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 22, 2019, 09:35:13 AM
Having a "social life" requires (sometimes) being a master schedule juggler. At least, if you're participating in the decision-making. Sometimes, I find that to be just "one more thing I have to do"... and working on a future schedule, I'm unsure of committing myself - because something all-consuming for me might come up, I might be super-tired at that time and just need to veg, etc.

I only have one friend at the moment that we even try to schedule things; and it usually involves her coming out here to get away for a weekend. I'm not enjoying any of my time going "over the mountain" and the city I used to live in, at all. I'm even on "will call" for my hair appt now.

I kinda like the arrangement Hol has with her friends. They pick a standard day, time & place for a group of them to get together over coffee at a cafe. People show up as they can - or don't - as the case may be. Even former house guest is part of that group now. It doesn't replace the one on one interactions, but is just always there, for people looking to connect.

I self-validate in the process that happens when I'm looking at things I want done - go do them - and then enjoy the improvement. There are only a few people that I actively reach out to these days, when I just need someone to lean on and moan to over the normal life-stuff. And I appreciate that everyone I know is mostly really busy with their own family, busy lives, work on themselves or physical training... so I may just "check in" from time to time, as I think about them and that seems to be quite enough "socializing" for me.

With Holly here, and Steve here a lot too... and their busy schedules, I'm always having to coordinate what's going on with dog sitting, holding down the fort here, etc. Sometimes they're not here at all for days... and I have some solitude back. But we just go with the flow and it's all pretty casual and easy.

Lol, that's almost the complete opposite of what I have to do, Skep!  Son's situation means I have to plan a month at a time to find a way of fitting everything in without him becoming too tired or overwhelmed.  So I book out college days first, then regular activities, then health care related appointments (which can really tire him out or really pep him up depending on what it is!), then days out or get togethers that he wants to get along to.  Then I have to try and organise the day to day stuff around that, like grocery shopping, bank, post office and anything else like that and my health related appointments.  Then there's the never ending paperwork; I have to look at when deadlines are and work back from that so I know what I need to get done by which day and I'm still trying to gather information to see if I can prove he suffered a brain injury during the birth and sue (we've tried twice and failed, I'm hoping third time lucky!).  We've still got a few years before the deadline for that but soomer rather than later would be good.  And then there's the bits like organising birthday cards and presents for people and the odds and ends that come along.  Then the daily stuff with him at home, like physio, working on his skills like telling the time and money, working on his speech and getting him doing the household stuff.  It's such a colossal amount of work and fitting it all in is like a military operation! Lol
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on May 22, 2019, 12:22:32 PM
I can't even comprehend how you keep your two-person crew doing what should take a battalion, Tupp.

You are a freaking HERO.
I mean this completely.
What you do day to day and year over year is genuinely heroic.

You deserve far more than a medal. I'm glad you're as determined as the bravest Marine, and keep getting it, piece by piece. You amaze me. Awe me!

The only thing I can compare it to is my decade with my (heavy) mother, and that had an end date.

love
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 22, 2019, 01:07:33 PM
I can't even comprehend how you keep your two-person crew doing what should take a battalion, Tupp.

You are a freaking HERO.
I mean this completely.
What you do day to day and year over year is genuinely heroic.

You deserve far more than a medal. I'm glad you're as determined as the bravest Marine, and keep getting it, piece by piece. You amaze me. Awe me!

The only thing I can compare it to is my decade with my (heavy) mother, and that had an end date.

love
Hops

Aw, thanks Hops, I don't feel heroic, just tired!  Lol, I am trying to focus on self care though.  I went to the nice parents group this morning and they are lovely, I felt really nice when I came out of there and they're organising some days out for all of us to go along to over the summer holidays which I'm really looking forward to.  I attracted cats as I walked into town lol, some are so friendly and one little chap started to follow me quite a lot of the way, I was a bit worried he might get lost but he turned back after a while.  I did actually sit and put my feet up this afternoon before I fetched son from college and I'm meeting the social worker tomorrow to go through some possible support options - it's not a huge amount at this stage but it's a start and I think we can add to things as we go along.  I'm getting my back fixed on Friday so only one more day of hobbling about and the acupuncture is helping my hormones; I'd usually be on my knees at this point in the month but I don't feel too bad.  I think the reason I really feel like I need those reciprocal relationships now is because there's so much to organise and fit in anyway, having to keep reaching out to people and organising them as well is just getting a bit much.  So I'm really glad that these two groups I've joined are proactive and other people are doing the organising - I'm happy to help out but it's nice not to have to be the one doing all the work. 

It must have been hard looking after your mum.  It does take a real toll on your life, everything you do has to be put on hold and the emotional side of it can be hard, particularly in those situations where you might be looking after someone who hasn't always been nice (thankfully I don't have that with son, he's always been so lovely).  And other people aren't always very understanding either, I think caring for someone when they're sick or disabled is often something that people only get if they've done it as well (like so many other things in life, I suppose, it's hard to imagine some things if you've not been through them) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 23, 2019, 09:00:02 AM
Tupp, maybe it's because I know I have times like this, but I'm hearing that you kinda need someone to take care of YOU for a change. Someone to schedule, manage the details - and son's needs - and allow you time/space to just enjoy, relax, be with others. It might not need to be a long time; maybe just dinner and part of an evening. Or a Saturday afternoon.

My deal is, that it's really easy for me to fall into the old habits of taking care of everyone, making things "just so", and nice so everyone can have a good time. Or just working around here on the chores and dealing with life stuff even, can be enough to send me into that "I wish I had a mommy to take of ME" state.

Lately, I've been holding down the kitchen for dinner for months now... with various people in/out of my place, like Steve and the house guest... and even my friends... that I'm in the mood to just go on strike and if anyone wants dinner THEY can make it. LOL. But you know what? They CAN and DO, and do a mighty fine job of it too. I just have to recognize that I don't always have to be the one "doing" and "in charge" and "responsible". And everything's wonderful and just fine.

I honestly need that from time to time, but often when I'm in that space I don't know how to ask for it. It's really no imposition for others to do this from time to time; we're not being "needy" out of the ordinary - everyone kinda needs this periodically. But somehow, I got the idea in my head that "it was my JOB to do this" and "never, ever ask for anything for ME".

My mom had a lot to with me getting that idea, I think. And it's a whole neural pathway of it's own now... but ya know what? It doesn't have to STAY that way.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 23, 2019, 12:22:40 PM
Tupp, maybe it's because I know I have times like this, but I'm hearing that you kinda need someone to take care of YOU for a change. Someone to schedule, manage the details - and son's needs - and allow you time/space to just enjoy, relax, be with others. It might not need to be a long time; maybe just dinner and part of an evening. Or a Saturday afternoon.

My deal is, that it's really easy for me to fall into the old habits of taking care of everyone, making things "just so", and nice so everyone can have a good time. Or just working around here on the chores and dealing with life stuff even, can be enough to send me into that "I wish I had a mommy to take of ME" state.

Lately, I've been holding down the kitchen for dinner for months now... with various people in/out of my place, like Steve and the house guest... and even my friends... that I'm in the mood to just go on strike and if anyone wants dinner THEY can make it. LOL. But you know what? They CAN and DO, and do a mighty fine job of it too. I just have to recognize that I don't always have to be the one "doing" and "in charge" and "responsible". And everything's wonderful and just fine.

I honestly need that from time to time, but often when I'm in that space I don't know how to ask for it. It's really no imposition for others to do this from time to time; we're not being "needy" out of the ordinary - everyone kinda needs this periodically. But somehow, I got the idea in my head that "it was my JOB to do this" and "never, ever ask for anything for ME".

My mom had a lot to with me getting that idea, I think. And it's a whole neural pathway of it's own now... but ya know what? It doesn't have to STAY that way.

Yes, absolutely that, Skep, desperate for others to take on the work but no-one else will do it and that's kind of the nub of the problem.  And not just that no-one else will do anything with or for son, but most people I know don't even bother to get back to me when I contact them or contact me first to ask if I want to get together, or just to have a chat and a catch up.  I think that's the main thing that I need to change but........ I can't change other people and that's what's difficult.  Social services have agreed to put in ten hours of support a week during the holidays but that still leaves me responsible for 144 hours term time and 158 in the holidays.  And much of the time he's doing other things I spend on the paperwork battles to get him the help he needs (which he still isn't getting two years since I started doing all this).  I am trying to get to the beach for an hour a day because it makes me feel a lot better and he's on half term next week so I don't need to worry about getting up in the mornings and that will help, but other than that literally no-one else is there.  When I had to go to court for his education package hearing all I needed in terms of care was someone to have him for a couple of hours before college and maybe a couple of hours afterwards.  But no-one could do it so I had to take him to my sister who's a two hour drive away and we had to go up the night before, stay over and then I had to drive back down to the court after I dropped him off and then drive back again afterwards to collect him before driving him home.  The time I spent driving was more time than I actually needed someone to have him but there wasn't anyone to do it.  Even with getting social workers involved I've still had to sort out which activities he can do, organise carers for him, put a costing package together and then meet with the social worker three times before she goes to the funding panel (who might say no) and then she comes back to me to tell me whether or not we can go ahead.  That alone has taken eleven months to get organised and the earliest it will be in place will be early July.  There have been umpteen phone calls and emails in between and that's just the social care; the education battle is still ongoing (two years in), we're probably going to have to go back to court and I haven't got started on the health care battle yet!  It's just so colossal and unless you can pay lawyers to do all of it there's no option but to do it all yourself.  I can get legal aid for the actual court process but it only deals with filing paperwork; I have to represent him myself so I still need to know everything and argue a case for him.  It's done on purpose to make people give up (and it works!).  But as we've no plan B I can't give up otherwise he won't get any help at all.  It's an awful system and one I'd be very glad to be out of :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on May 23, 2019, 04:21:14 PM
Braaaaaaaaaavooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

AMBER!

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 24, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
Continuing on the theme of having a reciprocal relationship with myself at the moment, so today I got my back fixed (it feels worse at the moment but that's normal, tomorrow or the next day it will feel fabulous) and then I went to the beach for an hour.  I think an hour a day at the beach needs to become my new therapy; just sitting there watching the waves is incredibly relaxing and the beach I've been going to is a quieter one used mostly by surfers so I've got the sand to myself.  I put my blanket out and there's a big piece of drift wood to lean against; it's lovely.  You walk down from the road so you can't really hear the traffic and there are rocks high up around all three sides so it feels cocooned in.  It's lovely.

I had a good meeting with the social worker yesterday and have got together some information for her today and sent it off so will wait to hear back from the funding panel now as to whether the application has been successful = should hear in about three weeks time.

I have reached out to a couple of friends and heard nothing back and I can feel in myself that I am losing interest in them now as well.  That's what I find hard - I get to a point where I can't muster up the enthusiasm to see them because of the lack of effort on their side and it just sort of dies off.  But - it is what it is and there's nothing I can do about that so will just have to leave it be.  The special needs parents have a Facebook group that I've joined and that seems good; they're quite active and sharing information about the various battles which is helpful.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on May 24, 2019, 01:45:55 PM
I'm glad the meeting with the social working went well.

::crossing fingers for super outcome::.

Your description of the beach is restful, and calm.  I want to rest against your driftwood, and listen to the waves too! Stretch those sun warmed muscles!

The friends not getting back to you leaves more room for what comes next.  I just have to believe there will be new connection for who Tupp has grown into.  Tupp isn't who she was 15 years, 10 years, 5 years ago. 

Who is Tupp TODAY, and what does she want?

I don't think you've had time to contemplate that.  You hardly have time to breath, and sturdy yourself for the next challenge.  As you busy yourself with new interests.... as you discover things older wiser Tupp wants more of.... people will be drawn to you, IME. 

Lighter


Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 24, 2019, 02:06:45 PM
I'm glad the meeting with the social working went well.

::crossing fingers for super outcome::.

Your description of the beach is restful, and calm.  I want to rest against your driftwood, and listen to the waves too! Stretch those sun warmed muscles!

The friends not getting back to you leaves more room for what comes next.  I just have to believe there will be new connection for who Tupp has grown into.  Tupp isn't who she was 15 years, 10 years, 5 years ago. 

Who is Tupp TODAY, and what does she want?

I don't think you've had time to contemplate that.  You hardly have time to breath, and sturdy yourself for the next challenge.  As you busy yourself with new interests.... as you discover things older wiser Tupp wants more of.... people will be drawn to you, IME. 

Lighter

It is lovely there, Lighter, it's my current favourite place.  There's a little car park and a coffee hut at the top so I can get myself a coffee and then plonk myself down and absolutely no-one bothers me.  No phone reception, either :) Yes, the me now is different to the me of times past so I am trying really hard to focus on what I can do and where I can go rather than what I wish other people were doing :)  It is getting easier, I'm finding it easier to focus less on wishing someone would ring and more on what I'm doing tomorrow or which group is on this week.  And also starting to enjoy being at home more.  There's a really good second hand furniture shop near us so buying bits and doing them up will be a good project; the house still feels higgledy piggledy because nothing really fits but I can slowly replace things that will work better and we won't move anywhere smaller than this so I won't need to worry about whether it will fit another place.

I think Tup today wants real connections, you know?  Being able to talk about thoughts and feelings, chatting about books and films and environmental stuff - feeling comfortable enough not to worry about what I'm saying or wearing or doing.  It's starting to come, I think the Tup of old was much more focused on pleasing other people.  Much less so these days.  So yes, hopefully those kind of people will start drawing in.

I will let you know what happens about the social care assessment; fingers crossed! xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 25, 2019, 02:43:29 AM
I've been thinking more about what I want, Lighter, and trying to notice what I do and just 'see' it as it's happening (as you do so well!) and what I'm noticing is I think that, for many years, I have just filled my life and my mind up with what other people are doing.  Not so much in the day to day sense of actual contact but in my mind, I've always tended to look at myself in relation to other people instead of just me - stand alone, what do I want, what am I trying to do.  I think that might be why I'm struggling a bit now - I feel a bit unanchored and untethered and it always makes me wonder what to do next.  Loneliness underpins everything I do and I think I've always felt lonely, because I don't think loneliness is really always to do with being around people.  I've had many periods in my life where I've had a lot of people around me, but I don't think that noise and/or being busy is the same as not being lonely?  I'm looking back across my life for connections and there aren't many - a few, and probably the earliest one with my dad, who unfortunately, wasn't around for long.  So I think perhaps I tend to fill the void with mental chatter and there is a deep longing for other people and I think what I really need to focus on is the sort of activity I'm doing and where that takes me.  I think what I've tended to do is find myself in a situation and then try to ingratiate myself with the people around me - whether it's work, family or just other parents at a group.  And perhaps what I need to be doing more is 'doing' what I love and then connecting with people I come into contact with that way, if possible.

I noticed my usual urge (and routine) when I wake up is to fill my head instantly, either with television or online, scrolling through websites, forums, Facebook - all looking for distraction or a sign of some connection somewhere.  I also tend to get up straight away, however tired I am.  So - I have forced myself back to bed, did come on here as I wanted to write it down before I forgot, but my aim now is to spend as much time in bed today as I can.  The tiredness has a lot to do with it, as we talked about in the other thread (I forget which one now), but the way tiredness means you reach for the usual habit because it's more difficult to form the new one.  So - I don't have anything I need to do urgently today.  I can stay in bed and rest, read, listen to music.  And it will be okay xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 25, 2019, 07:35:44 AM
Having that quiet time in bed, was recommended to me about 10 years ago Tupp. What I do during that time has changed a lot. Lately, I've been spending the time letting the thoughts rise and drift off and just relax as much as possible into the coziness. Sometimes it's just 15 minutes; sometimes I spend a whole hour that way.

It's just a time-out at the beginning of my day, to connect with ME. And it makes a difference! When I don't have the luxury of that (or healing of it) I'm discombobulated all the rest of the day.

I do get to look out my window, listen to the birds, watch the light change as the sun comes over the ridge... and enjoy the cool thermals that come up off the cliff behind the house. My time to "just be" right there with my self. It's consoling and reassuring and I think, might be assisting my rebuilding of confidence.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 26, 2019, 05:42:49 AM
Having that quiet time in bed, was recommended to me about 10 years ago Tupp. What I do during that time has changed a lot. Lately, I've been spending the time letting the thoughts rise and drift off and just relax as much as possible into the coziness. Sometimes it's just 15 minutes; sometimes I spend a whole hour that way.

It's just a time-out at the beginning of my day, to connect with ME. And it makes a difference! When I don't have the luxury of that (or healing of it) I'm discombobulated all the rest of the day.

I do get to look out my window, listen to the birds, watch the light change as the sun comes over the ridge... and enjoy the cool thermals that come up off the cliff behind the house. My time to "just be" right there with my self. It's consoling and reassuring and I think, might be assisting my rebuilding of confidence.

Thanks, Skep, I think it just comes down to new habits again.  I struggle to rest when I'm not exhausted and I think that's what I need to do - make myself stay in bed and read if I don't have to be up just yet, make myself sit down in the afternoon and put a film on, give myself an hour in the bath, before I get so worn out I can't manage anything but that.  I think that's where I trip up by getting on with things until I physically can't do anymore.  I find it hard not to think about the things that are lacking in my life when I'm resting and I think that's part of the problem - the loneliness and sense of isolation finds a way in  and that gets me down.  So I think it's practising new habits until they become the new normal for me.

I'm re-thinking how I am towards others as well with things like birthdays.  I've been looking at the efforts I've made so far this year for other people's birthdays and again, there is a sense of inbalance, although more along the lines of keeping in touch (and by that I mean I can see I've made quite a lot of effort for people that I realised I don't really hear from anymore and who I've given up phoning because they don't call back).  Again, I think it's just habit, I hadn't realised I was doing it so I'm going to need to cut back there and have a bit of a re-think.

In other news - I spent almost all day in bed yesterday (or shared between the bed and the sofa) and then bought fish and chips for tea so I didn't have to cook.  Couldn't quite face staying in bed anymore today but have had a more leisurely start to the day then usual and am planning on having a quiet, slow and steady day with a trip to the beach this evening.  I am very glad it's half term now and we don't have to be out the door at any set time any day next week.  The pressure that creates is quite immense and I'm glad this academic year is almost over so I won't need to be doing it for a good while through the summer.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 27, 2019, 05:23:38 AM
Just jotting things down as I think of them or notice them.  I did an hour in the garden first thing this morning - just tidying up but I definitely prefer being outside to in and physical work suits me better than brain work, I think.  I spent a couple of hours sorting out 'stuff' indoors last night - just reorganising stuff, sticking things in the loft or shed to free up a bit more space indoors, bagging up a few bits for the charity shop or to turn into something else, found a couple of bits I'd been looking for, organised a few more photos for son's 'This is your life' book for his 18th.  I like doing stuff like that as well.  Defo prefer that sort of thing to paperwork and day to day housework but seem to spend far more time on the stuff I don't like rather than the stuff I do.  So need to work on tipping that balance the other way.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 27, 2019, 09:37:06 AM
A couple of observations/thoughts/resonating recognitions all whisked together this time, Tupp. As you write things down, get it out of your head... I can see them better. Doesn't mean I'm "right" about what I see; but some of it may be useful to you.

Primary connection

I believe (rightly/wrongly) that for most of us, we grow our connection to ourselves via the connection we have with our primary caregivers. I kinda suspect that our foremothers knew this instinctively and that explains the tradition of moms being practically still physically attached to their infants for the first months of their lives. Think papooses, and how comforting it must've been to still be carried by mom, while making the transition to consciousness of the world around the babe.

I believe our ability to trust ourselves and have a measure of self-confidence also derives from that early imprinting. Attachment theory has a lot to say about that, so I won't expound. But doing the work you're doing now, it might be a valuable research project to you. The operative relationship that transfers being totally cared for and protected by the caregiver - to an internalized sense of "being OK" within oneself, come what may - is called "mirroring". Mom reflects back to babe, what BABE is and feels; corrects things that Babe can't fix for him/herself yet; and slowly lets go the responsibility for that over the toddler years as Babe begins to be able to physically operate the world around them.

Imagine how proud babe is of herself, the first time she can pick up a piece of food herself or finds she can throw snack all over herself, the chair and the floor! Later, she learns - oh, that doesn't get the food where I want it > in my face!!

Now, imagine how babe feels if she is screamed at, or hit, or "punished" by being removed from the food, the companionship of caregiver, and is told she is "bad" - over & over for years as she fumbles her first attempts at developmental achievements.

Imagine what happens to babe, if she's never "seen" as being a separate person from mom - with Babe's own feelings, thoughts, habits, personality - and is constantly told she's "just like - mom, when she's "good" and dad, when she displeases "mom". Babe never has the important "mirror" feedback of WHO SHE REALLY IS and that IT'S OKAY to be HER.

If she's lucky, she finds someone else later in life, who can be a clear mirror for who she is and doesn't complicate things, with their own internal crap. (Yes, probably just like I'm doing right now - but you're smart enough to separate the "me" parts out.)

Should is double-edged sword

There are shoulds that come with consequences attached. "I should pay my bills today" comes with the kicker, if the bills are late or simply unpaid. I try to follow those, but I also have to watch that I'm not making them more important than they really are in the general scheme of things.

But all the other shoulds are negotiable; and I ask myself: do I really WANT to do that? (regardless of what other people think is important - and that includes the so-called "balance" in my life; what works and is important to others isn't always on my "need" chart right now) I no longer worry about if I'm "normal", because I'm seeing that I'm enjoying how people are different from each other, way more than how we're alike. Sometimes it works that we want to spend time together; sometimes it doesn't. That doesn't necessarily imply that it's impossible to have a relationship with that person or that circumstances might not alter how we both feel at some other time. Just means it's not going to fit the recipe we've been told (conditioned to expect) "should be" what is.

There are some consequences attached to the 2nd type of shoulds. If I choose not to invite someone over... and maybe Holly's feeling social or restless or has an obligation to someone else... I can find myself alone. But that doesn't mean I'm lonely. I might put off doing certain jobs because I'm a bit anxious about tackling it on my own. (I'm trying hard not to hurt myself, and learn my physical limits.) Or I might be bored, with silence... or not being engaged with other people. But "lonely" only comes to visit me occasionally. I'm just weird that way, I guess.

And even when I don't feel I have any energy at all - I CAN still read and learn something new. Or re-arrange some corner of the room, to allow room for new impressions of the space, etc. (Sometimes, I have to move things back, though... LOL.)

It's amazing to me, some days, how comfortable I am with my self now. I used to find being alone the worst kind of torture and deep down believed I was going to go stark raving mad - a drooling idjit - if forced to be alone for any length of time. Then, I started working with actually drawing boundaries between "times I wanted to be alone" and "times I wanted to socialize" - and that was awkward too. I'd just get comfy one way or the other and the shift would be intense.

Having Holly here - and her spontaneaity and her generation's established "hang out" culture - I've adjusted to a smoother transition between both solitude and groups of people. It might just be having the practice, you know? It takes 5000 repetitions before something new feels "normal" to you; before it's internalized; before it's just what you do... and are becoming.

I'm using me as an example... of the choices; not as an example to emulate. I don't know how to talk about things like this a different way. It's just like Hops & I have different goals in mind in online dating. A lot of our experiences and observations overlap; but we're both going to a different kind of solution that works just for us.

PS, I edited the typos more than once. I find I'm skipping words a lot now when I type. Brain's moving too fast these days.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 27, 2019, 11:19:01 AM
Yes that all makes sense, Skep (and I didn't notice any typos! lol), especially all about not being mirrored by a parent and therefore not learning who you really are.  I really see that in myself and have done for years now.  The example I often use to explain it was when I read Dr McBride's book about narcissism (which was the first time I'd ever heard of the term and before I found Dr G).  One of the sections is a quiz about your personal likes and dislikes - food, clothes, the way you decorate your home, what you watch on TV, films, books, holiday destinations - just stuff about your life.  I couldn't answer a single question for myself - I couldn't even decide what my favourite food was.  But I knew the answer for my mum on every single question.  That really brought home to me how invisible I was to myself, as well as to everyone else, and I guess that's what I'm still working my way through all these years later.

I think the thing with being lonely, for me, isn't that I like being around people a lot (I don't) and it isn't that I don't like my own company (because I do) but I think it's the sense of not being important to (many) people - or at least, not important just as I am, as a human being, rather than being important because of what I do for them.  What brings it home to me is times like today, when it's a Bank Holiday.  Most people are (a) spending time with their loved ones and (b) out and about doing things because it's a public holiday, the weather's nice and there's lots on.  It make me very aware that almost everyone else I know is with the people who are important to them - and that isn't me.  And it's not that I expect people to make me more important than their husband or kids or their own parents, or other friends - it's just that it really hits home to me that I just don't have those connections with people.  And yes, I do think that's a lot to do with never forming a real attachment with myself, because I just had to be sycophant to mother so that she didn't feel crap and I'm still figuring myself out 46 years later :)

But - I have just sat down and planned out our activities for the month!  We've got two groups a week now, both of which I enjoy because the people are nice.  We've got two meetings with the sustainability people (one I'll go to on my own, one son will come as well).  We're going to a drumming circle next weekend, quite a long way away to a place we don't know so I'm looking forward to the drive and maybe stopping at a new beach on the way home.  We'll do cinema and beach trips as usual and we're seeing two places this week that son will hopefully be able to go to with a carer over the summer holidays (just waiting to see if we've been awarded the funding but hopefully it will come through).  We've also got another couple of beach cleans and son's college are having their own Prom so he will be off out for the evening.  Things are starting to move in the right direction and I think we'll continue to meet more people who are into the same sorts of things I'm into and I think it will all start to get better.  It's just hanging on in the tough times that's difficult, isn't it?  I think if I focus more on what I can do, rather than who I can do it with, then things will start to get better.  I will read more on attachment issues as I think it is relevant and yes, making new habits and breaking old patterns is blooming hard work!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 27, 2019, 05:52:08 PM
Well, you're important to US, Tupp! (We start getting worried if you don't post for awhile.)

I've been by myself most of the day today too. But that's about to change when Hol gets back with former house guest. He doesn't have to work; it's warmer in town and the temps are going way up for the next couple days. I think we're going have a little bonfire... Amazon style.

Got burgers for the fire, and sides already chillin' in the fridge... so not a lot to prepare. Just a quiet evening.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on May 27, 2019, 09:45:52 PM
HELL YES, TUPP IS IMPORTANT!
RIGHT HERE, AND THOUGH WE'RE IN THE ETHER, WE DO VALUE YOU TUPP!

FOR REAL IN REALITY!!

Y'all have had an amazing back and forth and I resonated with what you each said and won't try to chime in, not admitting that I had 2.5+ glasses of wine...

More soon, just checking in ....

with lots of love,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:38 AM
Thanks, both, you are all very important to me as well and I'm not meaning to sound ungrateful (because I am truly grateful for a lot of things in my life) but it's the lack of real time day to day people that I am really struggling with at the minute - no-one there to chat to in the evening or while dinner is cooking, or even to sit and eat a meal with.  No day to day contact with people I know well, and trust, and enjoy being around.  No physical contact, no cuddling up, no affection, no getting a foot rub whilst watching a film.  It's those things, that lack of close relationships, that I thought would change once I cut myself off from the unhealthy relationships.  But instead of that void being filled with healthy relationships it's remained a void for nearly twenty years now and I just don't know what else to do to try to fill it.  There's only so much joy from reading a book!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 28, 2019, 01:45:41 PM
I had a realisation today which I think is an important one (that's assuming I've got the right angle on it!).  I bumped into a friend who is one of the friends I've been feeling down about as I don't see or hear from her very much.  The way I interpret people not getting in touch is that they're not interested enough in me to want to make any effort to see or be around me too much.  But - as we were chatting, and she was telling me what she's been doing recently and who she's been doing it with, I realised she doesn't have any boundaries.  Everything she told me was a situation that she didn't particularly want to be in, but so and so had phoned, and so and so else had turned up uninvited, and x, y and z had asked her to do this, and so on and so forth, and as she was telling me I realised that she hadn't actually been doing anything she wanted to, she just can't say no to anyone else so she spends almost all of her time running round after other people - just like I used to.

And as I thought about that through the afternoon, I realised that almost everyone I know is like that as well - so many of the people I know don't make time for me because they don't actually make time for themselves or for doing what they want to do - they're running round after others, who they then moan about because they're not doing what they want to.  And I always took that to mean that I come even further down the list than all these people that they complain about - but I don't think it is that.  I think they're just not able to say no, or prioritise their own time, or just say to someone, "I'm having a quiet one today so no, you can't come round".  And I used to be exactly the same.

Does that make sense?  It felt like a big weight lifted off my shoulders.  It just suddenly seemed clear that it isn't that people aren't bothering, it's more that they're like I used to be - they tend to respond rather than being proactive about what they want to do and who they want to be with.  It's exactly what I used to be like - always waiting and being available and never putting my own needs first.  It just made me think about things in a different (better!) way.  And I feel less hostile and down about it - which I hope will last :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on May 28, 2019, 07:21:23 PM
That makes complete sense, Tupp!  I spend time wondering why I have a hard time saying NO, then work on stronger boundaries.  It tends to go in and out of shape,  IME.

I'm glad you're feeling better about your social situation.  You're lovely, and assuming you're the problem wasn't productive.  People get slammed, and swamped if they can't discern what they want need from what others want/need, IME. Thanks for the reminder.

How was your weekend?

Lighter


Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 29, 2019, 01:55:15 AM
That makes complete sense, Tupp!  I spend time wondering why I have a hard time saying NO, then work on stronger boundaries.  It tends to go in and out of shape,  IME.

I'm glad you're feeling better about your social situation.  You're lovely, and assuming you're the problem wasn't productive.  People get slammed, and swamped if they can't discern what they want need from what others want/need, IME. Thanks for the reminder.

How was your weekend?

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter :)  Weekend was quiet, which is what I wanted :)  I am pretty good at saying no now, but that's also what's played a big part in my loneliness, I think.  I don't tend to accept last minute invitations any more, because it means I can't do what I planned to do.  I also tend to keep my distance from other people's drama now, which means my drama swamped friends tend to go elsewhere for their drama analysis.  I used to enjoy playing amateur psychologist, but I tend to just find it a bit tedious now.  And chatting to that friend was a revelation; it made me see that I've grown and changed and because most of my friends haven't, I have sort of left some of them behind.  The sort of friendship we had doesn't really interest me anymore - so it's probably actually more that I'm rejecting them, instead of them rejecting the newer, more boundary focused me!  And that does make sense, because I know I've lost friends when I've set boundaries (and my older sister is a good example of that - since asking her not to keep coming round with her divorce drama whenever she felt like it I've more or less not seen her since.  Which I took to be that she didn't care about me, but now I think about it I think it's more that her own lack of boundaries means she doesn't hear a boundary being set, she just hears "don't come near me".  Which isn't what it was).

But I think that's the thing, growing and changing, working out our own crap, whilst dealing with our kids, work, court battles and whatever else we're doing, often means we haven't got the time to hand hold other people, or stay with them while they continue to do what they always did - particularly once we see that we aren't doing it any more.  It's a bit like giving up drinking or smoking, I think - you kind of need to stay away from people who do those things while you work on not doing it anymore.  It made me realise I often feel like I'm in teacher mode with people - if they've not yet learnt to say no or put themselves first (and are complaining about that) I find it tiring - particularly when they're not at that point where they're ready (or want) to do that themselves.  It's a hard path but it made me feel better because I'm suddenly seeing that it's not that I'm bad or inherently unlikeable - I've just moved along the path quicker than some of my friends have and it's meant I've rushed off on my own a bit xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 29, 2019, 10:10:11 AM
Ha! I knew you'd sort this out Tupp. ;)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 29, 2019, 02:38:22 PM
Ha! I knew you'd sort this out Tupp. ;)

Ha ha, it takes me a while but I get there in the end!  It's funny, it's making me see things really differently.  I went to the group again this morning (parents of special needs kids) and again, everyone's very nice but I'm noticing different personalities and I sat there this morning thinking to myself - I don't have to get on with everyone, or be their friend, or assume they want to be my friend because they sit next to me and talk to me.  A couple of the mums don't drive and they were talking about it being hard to get around and I opened my mouth to say "I can give you lifts, call me!".  And then I closed my mouth before I could speak because this is what I do; I offer to help people and put myself under more pressure or end up spending time with people that I don't really want to and I get myself into a fix.  So I am happy to help other people out but I'm going to work on being selective about what I offer to do and who I offer to do it for, and practise being clear about what I can and can't do.

I also realised it is okay for me to 'use' people.  I don't really know the best way to say that but I've always felt like I should be very authentic with people and not take from them unless I can give back.  But the two mums that have set the group up have done it expressly to help other parents so it is actually alright for me to just sit there and enjoy my cup of tea if I want to - I don't have to be the group agony aunt or tea lady, because others are willing to do it.  I don't have to leap in and help everybody and that felt nice to just be okay with that and not give myself a hard time.  I don't have to take responsibility for the way everybody else feels and I think that's the first time that's really felt alright with me?  Blimey!  This might all actually get a bit easier!  Lol x
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on May 29, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
Oh wow, Tupp.
You really are operating out of new insight.

I'm soooooo impressed. BRAVO! It all makes so much SENSE.

Forgive me for not writing more...thinking of you and cheering!

xo
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on May 29, 2019, 06:38:05 PM
That sounds like a really solid first step Tupp. You can probably safely commisserate over some of the difficulties without volunteering to shoulder the solution, too. That might get you a step closer to the kind of connection you're looking for. Doesn't cost you a thing to validate someone's experience or feelings. (And doesn't mean you'll always be able to do so...)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 30, 2019, 01:17:50 AM
That sounds like a really solid first step Tupp. You can probably safely commisserate over some of the difficulties without volunteering to shoulder the solution, too. That might get you a step closer to the kind of connection you're looking for. Doesn't cost you a thing to validate someone's experience or feelings. (And doesn't mean you'll always be able to do so...)

Yes, exactly that, Skep.  I think one of the reasons I've disliked groups in the past (and stopped going to or avoided them) is that I felt obliged to be everyone's mate, join in with everything, help out and all the rest of it.  I'd get home feeling exhausted and like I'd been used but, of course, I was allowing myself to do all of this (volunteering for it, usually), so it makes sense now.  What I've realised is great about these groups is that I can use them as an opportunity to get to know people, work out who I'd like to get to know better and who I don't, not get to know anyone better if I feel like it and offer to help when and if I'm able to, without having to commit to the entire thing, every single time.  I just feel so much better about it all; for years I've felt there's something wrong with me and that I keep attracting the wrong sort or reading the signals wrong and it's made me fearful of getting involved with new people.  This just feels like it makes more sense and that makes me feel a whole lot better :)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on May 30, 2019, 08:02:54 AM
Lovely, lovely.

To me it sounds like you're respecting yourself, Tupp. Not in an angry or brittle way. But in a natural way. You're respecting the natural limits of your energy and your own needs.

You're tending to yourself first with kindness, as a priority. You're on your own side and not forgetting or abandoning yourself in the presence of others. And that makes other social decisions and choices so much easier. It all flows from that more solid sense of yourself...you are still present when other people are. Not a shell of you or a performance. Just real you, being gentle and honest. Gentle includes saying No, and not leaping to take on responsibilities you don't need to carry. And cooperating with your own well being.

You've befriended yourself.

BRAVOOOO! Thanks for sharing this, it was wonderful to read.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on May 30, 2019, 10:24:17 AM
Tupp:

For me it really helps to see exactly what's been happening... what our actions and energy in a situation has been, so we can assess it.  Maybe change, or tweak it, so we get more of what we want.

That you're in observer mode is wonderful!

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 30, 2019, 12:06:47 PM
Lovely, lovely.

To me it sounds like you're respecting yourself, Tupp. Not in an angry or brittle way. But in a natural way. You're respecting the natural limits of your energy and your own needs.

You're tending to yourself first with kindness, as a priority. You're on your own side and not forgetting or abandoning yourself in the presence of others. And that makes other social decisions and choices so much easier. It all flows from that more solid sense of yourself...you are still present when other people are. Not a shell of you or a performance. Just real you, being gentle and honest. Gentle includes saying No, and not leaping to take on responsibilities you don't need to carry. And cooperating with your own well being.

You've befriended yourself.

BRAVOOOO! Thanks for sharing this, it was wonderful to read.

Hugs
Hops

Hops, I agree!  Lol, it just feels better, it's hard to put it into words but I suddenly feel like I've been looking at it from the wrong angle and instead of assuming something about me is making these relationships difficult, I've realised that other people also have their own hang ups and stuff that they do, and it doesn't mean I'm faulty - just that I'm keener to have those deeper connections and longer chats and I'd rather wait for that than fill my day up with things (and people) I don't particularly want to be around.  I just feel more content in myself and less desperate to validate myself through other people's eyes, I suppose?  It does feel better - I feel like a weight's been lifted and it suddenly feels easier :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 30, 2019, 12:08:45 PM
Tupp:

For me it really helps to see exactly what's been happening... what our actions and energy in a situation has been, so we can assess it.  Maybe change, or tweak it, so we get more of what we want.

That you're in observer mode is wonderful!

Lighter

Being able to observe it is helping, Lighter, I find it hard to separate out how I feel from what I can see is going on sometimes.  If I'm feeling low, I just want to not feel low, rather than observing it, you know?  So this has been helpful, I just felt like I could sit back a bit and watch what was going on and not attach quite so much importance to it all?  It felt good!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on May 30, 2019, 04:09:27 PM
 Seems this is an important piece of the puzzle, (((Tupp )))
Light
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 31, 2019, 02:10:59 AM
Seems this is an important piece of the puzzle, (((Tupp )))
Light

Lighter, I really think it is!  A friend messaged last night to ask a favour - first time I've heard from her in weeks.  Even just a few days ago I'd have been so upset and gone into my "see, people only call you when they want something" mode.  But it genuinely didn't bother me, I just feel sort of, "okay, this is a 'get together for a coffee and drop in from time to time friend' rather than the really deep connections I want" - and that's okay.  I can have friends I don't make a massive effort with, either.  I think that's what's changed, I've suddenly realised I don't have to put a lot of effort in, either, and I think in the past I've always put a lot of effort in, no matter what.  That's not reciprocated and then I get down.  But I can have 'coffee' friends and save my energy for the deep and meaningfuls (and the favour she asked is tiny and I'm doing the same thing for myself anyway so I don't mind doing it for her as well as it's not an effort so all good :) ) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on May 31, 2019, 01:01:10 PM
We file people in our hearts and minds, according to their trustworthiness, and kind of contact we'll have, or not have. 

I'm trying to feel more confident about these choices. I don't want to feel I MUST justify them, to anyone.  Including myself.  There's a certain amount of angst, and internal struggle for me, particularly when .

I can't please everyone.  I might as well make sure I'm pleased. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 31, 2019, 01:04:00 PM
Well the last couple of days have been interesting (and useful!) from an observational point of view :)

We went to visit a council run day centre yesterday, with a view to son spending a day a week there over the summer holidays.  It was awful and I wouldn't leave the cat there, let alone him.  I then came home and called the care agency we're supposed to be using for support and discovered no-one there has any experience with son's particular type of seizure and no-one is trained to use the rescue meds he might need if he starts seizing when he's with them.  They would call an ambulance, who would then decide whether or not to administer or take him in to hospital - all of which is completely unnecessary and could potentially leave him fitting for an hour or more, when the rescue meds stop the seizure within minutes and I carry them in my bag (as should anyone else who's looking after him).

But it didn't make me want to jump off a cliff, as so many things have done over recent months.  I gave it a bit of thought and decided that my best bet is to focus on his next review (which is early next year and will change everything because he'll be assessed as an adult rather than a child, which is a whole new set of legislation, different requirements and so on, so everything will change again), rather than continuing to battle through with this one, which has basically been a waste of time so far and I will get everything done just in time for his review to go through when it will all change anyway.  So - I let it go.  I've asked the social worker if she could try to get us some funding just to pay for days out over the summer holiday but I will focus the next six months on putting together a really good package for him, finding good quality carers who can give him the care he needs and preparing for court (just in terms of knowing what the options are if we have to fight it all again) and from now until his 18th birthday I just want to focus on resting and enjoying the day without any drama.  It felt good to refocus, accept that it's not worth battling on now and instead recircling the wagons to prepare for the next stage.

This afternoon we went to see another place that he might be able to go to and it's absolutely lovely.  A lovely couple bought a small farm a few years ago and have transformed it into a place for adults with learning difficulties to care for animals, grow food, do art and craft indoors on bad weather days and enjoy picnics when it's sunny.  They've got a small swimming pool that the clients can use as well.  We're doing a volunteer day there in a few weeks' time and then I'm going to take him over there during the summer holiday to get him used to the place.  They need more volunteers so I'm going to find out if I can volunteer with them once son's package is sorted and I don't have to be available all the time.  That's the sort of set up I like - it's outdoors, the people are lovely, there's plenty to do and it's just right up my street.  So I want to focus more time doing that sort of thing now.

Then we went to feed a friend's pet for them while they're away and the pets haven't been left in very good condition - not animal cruelty stuff but a bit thoughtless.  Ordinarily I would have stayed with them for ages, texted friend asking should I do this, should I do that - but I thought, no, it's not for me to sort out.  And I came home and I don't feel bad about it.  Something in me has shifted and it's very interesting to see!
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on May 31, 2019, 01:05:59 PM
We file people in our hearts and minds, according to their trustworthiness, and kind of contact we'll have, or not have. 

I'm trying to feel more confident about these choices. I don't want to feel I MUST justify them, to anyone.  Including myself.  There's a certain amount of angst, and internal struggle for me, particularly when .

I can't please everyone.  I might as well make sure I'm pleased. 

Lighter

You were writing at the same time as me, Lighter :)  Lol.

Yes, I think I've always felt very compelled to behave like everybody's best mate and be available for them and do things for them.  And now I'm just thinking, actually, it's okay to meet someone for a coffee every now and again and it doesn't need to be anymore than that.  And you're right, you may as well please yourself rather than trying to keep everyone else happy lol x
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on May 31, 2019, 11:38:45 PM
That's too bad about the day center. Would have been a social opportunity for both of you maybe.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 01, 2019, 01:56:09 AM
That's too bad about the day center. Would have been a social opportunity for both of you maybe.

I've probably been too harsh in my description of it, G, it's probably great for older people with different types of disabilities, but my son gets very overwhelmed by noise, people, lots going on and a lack of structure.  So a big noisy space with forty odd people in it, no clear indication of who the staff are, no routine or timetable and no security (anyone can wander in or out and it's a five minute walk from the town centre) just makes it completely unsuitable for him.  My frustration is that we've literally got hundreds of pages detailing his disabilities, I explain what he needs and who needs to do it over and over again and still people refer us to the wrong places constantly.  I'm just frustrated because I've spent a year waiting for the professionals to sort everything out and it's clear now that I need to do it all myself and then tell them what to organised - which I don't mind doing but if I'd known last June that's what I needed to do it would have been done by July :)  C'est la vie and all that, the sun is shining, summer holidays are coming, I'm about to do some yoga and I just don't care anymore :)  Woo hooo!  Lol.  If reports of a deranged woman skipping on a beach make their way across the pond to you, you'll know who it is ;) xx x
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on June 01, 2019, 05:09:04 AM
heheh I'm sure nobody would notice one more deranged person on the beach  (smile)    if its fun why not
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 01, 2019, 01:12:32 PM
If I picture you, Tupp, in social situations....
taking your time.... observing the people around you, and how they interact with others.
If I see you choosing a person to interact with, just one or two that day, to explore possible connections with, while considering your needs, and possible joy.
IF I see you reaching out,  testing a connection... sampling it for joy..... spark....  finding it, and turning fully to it, or not.  Just remaining in your space, knowing that connection is not for you, now.

And there's flow to this process.  No angst.  No worry.  The feelings of others are their own, not Tupp's to bear.  She's safe within her boundaries.  Comfortable.  At ease in her skin.  Free to be present in the moment.  Old distractions fallen away without regret or sadness.   

Tupp owns the world around her, whether she feels it or not.  It is HER world, and her creative spirit has room to grow within the boundaries of that good, and right ownership.  Fear, and jealousy fall away, and she no longer suffers comparisons with others.  There's no room within Tupp's boundaries for such useless things.  Time matters.  Every second is special, and precious to her. 

She can hear the rain, and birds....
feel the breeze, and sun.....
sense her son's happy activity nearby....
smell fresh laundry.....
and know the cup of tea she's enjoying is the best cup of tea she's ever had.

She looks forward to social arrangements, and feels there's always just enough.  She lives from a place of abundance.  She cultivates abundance her friends enjoy with her.  These friends bring some home, and cultivate it for themselves.  Tupp is teaching, as she learns.   

TUPP is the happy recipient of this undercurrent in all aspects of her life.  She doesn't get ahead of herself, and worry about tomorrow.  She's proactive, and does what she can in the moment, then stays rooted in the moment.  Her head is where her feet are, in the here and now, and this brings more peace and joy to her life. 

Yesterday is gone.  Tomorrow is a dream.  Today is all we have.  It's what's real.... what's in front of us now.  Tupp knows this, and if she forgets, she laughs, and returns to the present.  She's human, and notices this, sans judgement.  She's compassionate, as always, but now she's the first to receive this beautiful kindness.  She's not scattering it about, waiting for it to come back.   She has enough, and there's plenty to offer the worthy people invited into her world.     

There are habits, and ways of being in the world.  Blocking out distractions, in favor of things we value in the moment.  Attention to details that matter, instead of worrying about what comes next.  What comes next is what comes next.

I love the idea of beginning every morning stretching, and cultivating a strong healthy body.  I'm trying to read PAIN FREE, by Pete Egoscue.  I'm trying to learn his routine to stay healthy, since I'm feeling good right now, but it's a struggle, bc I want to jump around and read about all the things I've struggled with first.  My brain scan has me pegged solidly with ADD, and I see it in everything I do.  It's not a relief, to know that, yet.  I think it will be.

Everyone has strengths and deficits.  It's what makes us who we are.  Leaning into the strengths, and staying curious about the deficits.... whatever they are.... is one way to get through life.  I rather like the sound of doing it that way. 

I hope you're finding joy in your weekend, Tupp.  I hope your garden has little gems, and surprises for you.  I hope you enjoy a long lavender epson salt soak in the tub, or read about something you're interested in.  I hope you go out in nature, in social situations, take time to observe those around you, spend a little time with one or two, and explore the possibility of lovely connection.  The connection should be real, and reciprocal.  Cultivate those connections you find nourishing, Tupp.  There's time, and room to breath. 

Lighter




   
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 02, 2019, 01:27:50 AM
heheh I'm sure nobody would notice one more deranged person on the beach  (smile)    if its fun why not

It's good to be deranged, G!  And we're close to a few beaches so I can go to different ones to avoid being caught :)  Ha ha xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 02, 2019, 01:48:52 AM

I really like the way you've written this, Lighter, it's like a little story of how things are and how nice life can be :)
If I picture you, Tupp, in social situations....
taking your time.... observing the people around you, and how they interact with others.
If I see you choosing a person to interact with, just one or two that day, to explore possible connections with, while considering your needs, and possible joy.
IF I see you reaching out,  testing a connection... sampling it for joy..... spark....  finding it, and turning fully to it, or not.  Just remaining in your space, knowing that connection is not for you, now.

Now it's very funny that you should have written this!  I took son to a shamanic drumming circle yesterday.  I have read a little bit about shamanism and had a healing session years ago.  Son has never done anything like that at all and it was one of the things I put on my list of things to try out.  I was nervous about it, not only because it was a new place, new people, new activity, but also because son has never done it and I was worried that he wouldn't like it or that the other people there would reject him and be unpleasant.  And I think that anxiety is a big part of the problem I have with socialising?  Because I hate the way that makes me feel, I go overboard to help other people feel included and involved - so when that doesn't happen to me, it makes me feel rejected instantly.  Whereas, what I think is more likely, is that other people don't have that same instinct to soothe others because they don't have the same need to be soothed themselves?  I think maybe what I do is project it outwards, and do for other people what I wish someone would do for me?  So what I need to do is start focusing all that attention that I project forward into myself instead.  Does that make sense?

The session went well, son enjoyed it although a couple of the people were very odd (I do think new age and spiritual type practices are a haven for narcissists and have met a fair few over the years.  Instinct, again, and definitely a couple of people there to avoid but the others were nice and the session itself was interesting and I enjoyed it.

And there's flow to this process.  No angst.  No worry.  The feelings of others are their own, not Tupp's to bear.  She's safe within her boundaries.  Comfortable.  At ease in her skin.  Free to be present in the moment.  Old distractions fallen away without regret or sadness.   

I think that's definitely the bit for me to work on, Lighter, I still take responsibility for other people's feelings, even though I'm trying not to.  That's the bit I still need to work on, and feeling comfortable with myself.  Not there yet, but working towards it :)

Tupp owns the world around her, whether she feels it or not.  It is HER world, and her creative spirit has room to grow within the boundaries of that good, and right ownership.  Fear, and jealousy fall away, and she no longer suffers comparisons with others.  There's no room within Tupp's boundaries for such useless things.  Time matters.  Every second is special, and precious to her. 

And yes, time matters, and I so much want it to be filled with good things that I want to be doing, rather than coping with the unpleasant consequences of other people's actions, whether they meant to be unpleasant or not.  It's a timely reminder, thank you :)

She can hear the rain, and birds....
feel the breeze, and sun.....
sense her son's happy activity nearby....
smell fresh laundry.....
and know the cup of tea she's enjoying is the best cup of tea she's ever had

Ha ha, it's almost exactly that right now!  No rain, but the birds are singing and sun is forecast for today (it's still quite early here.  Son is asleep upstairs (although as I say that I've heard a clonk so he might be up.  The washing machine is on and the dry load from yesterday is folded and waiting to go into the airing cupboard.  And my cup of tea is delicious!  Lol

She looks forward to social arrangements, and feels there's always just enough.  She lives from a place of abundance.  She cultivates abundance her friends enjoy with her.  These friends bring some home, and cultivate it for themselves.  Tupp is teaching, as she learns.   

TUPP is the happy recipient of this undercurrent in all aspects of her life.  She doesn't get ahead of herself, and worry about tomorrow.  She's proactive, and does what she can in the moment, then stays rooted in the moment.  Her head is where her feet are, in the here and now, and this brings more peace and joy to her life. 

Yesterday is gone.  Tomorrow is a dream.  Today is all we have.  It's what's real.... what's in front of us now.  Tupp knows this, and if she forgets, she laughs, and returns to the present.  She's human, and notices this, sans judgement.  She's compassionate, as always, but now she's the first to receive this beautiful kindness.  She's not scattering it about, waiting for it to come back.   She has enough, and there's plenty to offer the worthy people invited into her world.     

There are habits, and ways of being in the world.  Blocking out distractions, in favor of things we value in the moment.  Attention to details that matter, instead of worrying about what comes next.  What comes next is what comes next.

I love the idea of beginning every morning stretching, and cultivating a strong healthy body.  I'm trying to read PAIN FREE, by Pete Egoscue.  I'm trying to learn his routine to stay healthy, since I'm feeling good right now, but it's a struggle, bc I want to jump around and read about all the things I've struggled with first.  My brain scan has me pegged solidly with ADD, and I see it in everything I do.  It's not a relief, to know that, yet.  I think it will be.

Everyone has strengths and deficits.  It's what makes us who we are.  Leaning into the strengths, and staying curious about the deficits.... whatever they are.... is one way to get through life.  I rather like the sound of doing it that way. 

I hope you're finding joy in your weekend, Tupp.  I hope your garden has little gems, and surprises for you.  I hope you enjoy a long lavender epson salt soak in the tub, or read about something you're interested in.  I hope you go out in nature, in social situations, take time to observe those around you, spend a little time with one or two, and explore the possibility of lovely connection.  The connection should be real, and reciprocal.  Cultivate those connections you find nourishing, Tupp.  There's time, and room to breath. 

Lighter

All of this chimes with me, Lighter - new beginnings, new connections, new ways of doing things.  I really want things to change now, for life to be happier and easier and more enjoyable and yes, filled with good connections.  We're getting there, aren't we?  And with the ADD revelation now for you, will that make changes in your life, do you think, or do you feel like you knew anyway but it just wasn't 'official'?  Lots of love to all of you xx


 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 02, 2019, 02:54:48 AM
It just started raining!  Oh my goodness, Lighter's controlling the weather!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 02, 2019, 01:01:51 PM
I wish it would rain here too, Tupp!  I spend an hour watering thirsty moss every day, and it seems like it was raining daily here for a year!  I want it happy, and amazingly green when company arrives!


Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 02, 2019, 10:46:29 PM
It rained this afternoon.  Out of the blue.

Maybe I can control the weather; )

About the ADD, Tupp.  I always knew I had SOMETHING.  Knowing what it is doesn't change anything.  No one wants to give me a drug, and I'm not asking for one.  I'm betting on the neurofeedback to help. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 03, 2019, 02:36:57 AM
Lol, well if you can control the weather figuring out ADD should be a breeze ;)  The thing I've found helpful with son's diagnoses is that it gives you a starting point when doing your own research.  It's just a good base to start from when looking into ways of helping yourself and making life work a bit more smoothly.

Speaking of which - I had an awful day yesterday, really down and lonely, felt suicidal again which surprised me because we'd had such a nice day the day before and have generally been having a better time of it.  My little brain has been working overtime and I had another lightbulb moment, and I'm starting to wonder if these bouts of me feeling suicidal are some sort of signal that some deep shift is going on, because once the lightbulb moment arrives the suicidal feelings go.  Almost like it's the death of some previous thought pattern moving out to be replaced by a new one or something.  Weird.  Anyway - I was thinking about habits and how we tend to go to old, often unhealthy patterns when tired, stressed, unwell and so on.  It's something I do a lot, and something that bothers me a lot.  Lack of sleep and rest is a big problem for me; four to six hours a night is average which just isn't enough.  And I think tiredness in me is quite subtle; it manifests in my thought processes and overall mood rather than yawning and wanting to sleep.

I decided to try to work on one health problem at a time, with rest and sleep being the first one.  I wanted to try to stay in bed for eight hours, even if I wasn't sleeping (I try this a lot and never manage more than a day or two; the stress of all the things not getting done gets the better of me and I get up).  But decided to try again and whilst sitting in bed, drinking tea and listening to music, started thinking about supportive aspects of my life - supportive people, supportive places, supportive activities.  I started making a list, and it's quite long.  I have a good number of supportive people in my life (and by supportive I really just mean people who don't drain me and wear me out, it doesn't even need to be that they do anything for me, just that they don't take too much).  We have a good number of lovely places to visit near us, all easy to get to, by bus if need be.  And there are many activities I can do and like doing that I can do at home without spending any money.  And I was looking at this list and wondering why, when I do have all these supportive aspects, I so often feel so unsupported and alone.  And what I realised - here is the drum roll - is that I tend to constantly go back to the things that don't support me.  When I'm down I contact people who treat me like shit, or I scroll through Facebook looking at everyone else's wonderful life whilst ruminating on my own.  Instead of getting out somewhere lovely nearby, that doesn't cost a lot, I stay indoors punishing myself for not being good enough to be heading off on an exotic holiday or attending some lovely concert or something.  Instead of making myself a healthy fruit plate and settling down with a good film or book, I watch crap on telly and stuff my face.  And I realised I'm in an abusive relationship with myself.  I've cut ties with abusive people and obvious abusive habits - but I've just replaced it with self abuse and an endless round of putting myself down and berating myself for not getting it right.  I stopped other people doing it and just started doing it myself instead.  I hadn't even realised I was doing it to any great extent but there I am, getting in my own way, stopping myself from getting on with what I want to do and the people I want to do it with.  Why oh why do we do this to ourselves??!!  It's so maddening when you see something and realise how obvious it is - although you couldn't see it before.

Anyway - with this new revelation in mind, I have got my list of supportive people, places and activities and I am going to try really hard to refer back to it throughout the day to try to get my mind retrained to automatically reach for things and people that help and nurture, rather than heading back to the things that don't time and time again.  Amazing that our brains can be so brilliant and so daft at the same time :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 03, 2019, 04:46:02 AM
I'm wondering if the negativity gives me energy in some way?  I forced myself to spend three hours in bed and not get up until 9am.  Very difficult; I was trying to relax by writing a bit, reading and listening to music.  My brain shoots to some sort of argument or imaginary battle, always involving me defending son in some way, listing the way his problems affect him, thinking of ways to get him away from people, imaging a defence in front of a child protection council.  None of it necessary or useful right now.  But it kept happening and when it did I felt a shot of energy going through me and I wonder if that's what I've been doing; firing myself up to get through the day by giving myself a shot of adrenaline.  I've kept pushing myself away from it and tried to refocus on something supportive and nurturing but it does make me feel absolutely worn out and shattered.  How very odd.  Will keep observing and writing down so I don't forget :)  Fortunately we only have four weeks of college left and then ten blissful weeks of being able to focus on us, rather than running around all over the place.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 03, 2019, 10:07:02 AM
Quote
I think maybe what I do is project it outwards, and do for other people what I wish someone would do for me?  So what I need to do is start focusing all that attention that I project forward into myself instead.  Does that make sense?

YES, Tupp. All those people you encounter now, are kinda like a human buffet. Maybe you just don't feel like, want to, have peas right now. Maybe you'd rather have carrots! Yummy, candied carrots... and if you FORCE yourself to eat peas instead... then the resistance (Viking-level, extra strength) of the inner Tupp, comes up as what you observed later on - that you punish yourself. (I have a theory about how that abuse gets internalized, but I'll save it for now. It tends to differ a lot between individuals.)

Re: people on facebook have "perfect lives"...

This is the epitome of media that allows people to polish the turds in themselves and their lives to present to other people - selling a scam; a lie - about themselves. It happens face to face, too - but in that case, you can observe both YOUR inner intuition about whether it's true or not and how you feel about it... and what your intuition observes about the other person that might be hiding themselves behind a picture of "perfect". There, exist the clues for deeper connection, should you choose to pursue it. (I will venture to say, that you should be VERY sure that you want to, before acting on it. For your sake and to protect yourself. There are some sophistocated artists in this deception out there.)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 03, 2019, 12:00:44 PM
Lol, well if you can control the weather figuring out ADD should be a breeze ;)  The thing I've found helpful with son's diagnoses is that it gives you a starting point when doing your own research.  It's just a good base to start from when looking into ways of helping yourself and making life work a bit more smoothly.

Speaking of which - I had an awful day yesterday, really down and lonely, felt suicidal again which surprised me because we'd had such a nice day the day before and have generally been having a better time of it.  My little brain has been working overtime and I had another lightbulb moment, and I'm starting to wonder if these bouts of me feeling suicidal are some sort of signal that some deep shift is going on, because once the lightbulb moment arrives the suicidal feelings go.  Almost like it's the death of some previous thought pattern moving out to be replaced by a new one or something.  Weird. I think giving up hope, or finding no way to continue an old pattern DOES feel like a death.  It IS a death, IME.  Maybe, bc you're so strong, giving up on something has to get to that very extreme point for you to release it, or be able to let it go/change.
 You're a very loyal person, Tupp.  I'm betting that giving up or giving in, on anything in any way, is tied into many aspects of your life, and hard to tease apart.  IME the more time I spend thinking about the painful stuff, the less suffering, in general.  I think that's counter intuitive, but it seems to be true.  No way around the pain.... have to go through it to get out of it, kwim?  Same stuff we've been talking about, but actually DOING it is another matter, IME.
Anyway - I was thinking about habits and how we tend to go to old, often unhealthy patterns when tired, stressed, unwell and so on.  It's something I do a lot, and something that bothers me a lot.  Lack of sleep and rest is a big problem for me; four to six hours a night is average which just isn't enough.  And I think tiredness in me is quite subtle; it manifests in my thought processes and overall mood rather than yawning and wanting to sleep.

I decided to try to work on one health problem at a time, with rest and sleep being the first one.  I wanted to try to stay in bed for eight hours, even if I wasn't sleeping (I try this a lot and never manage more than a day or two; the stress of all the things not getting done gets the better of me and I get up).  But decided to try again and whilst sitting in bed, drinking tea and listening to music, started thinking about supportive aspects of my life - supportive people, supportive places, supportive activities.  I started making a list, and it's quite long.  I have a good number of supportive people in my life (and by supportive I really just mean people who don't drain me and wear me out, it doesn't even need to be that they do anything for me, just that they don't take too much).  Sometimes I wonder if I expect too little from everyone around me.  I try to shield everyone, and carry my load without asking for help.  I've caught myself, twice, saying to oldest dd... "You don't have to help, but please stop sabotaging me."  I don't feel good about that.
 The statement makes me question everything, and I am.
We have a good number of lovely places to visit near us, all easy to get to, by bus if need be.  And there are many activities I can do and like doing that I can do at home without spending any money.  And I was looking at this list and wondering why, when I do have all these supportive aspects, I so often feel so unsupported and alone.  And what I realised - here is the drum roll - is that I tend to constantly go back to the things that don't support me. Yup. When I'm down I contact people who treat me like shit, or I scroll through Facebook looking at everyone else's wonderful life whilst ruminating on my own.  Instead of getting out somewhere lovely nearby, that doesn't cost a lot, I stay indoors punishing myself for not being good enough to be heading off on an exotic holiday or attending some lovely concert or something.  Instead of making myself a healthy fruit plate and settling down with a good film or book, I watch crap on telly and stuff my face.  And I realised I'm in an abusive relationship with myself.  I've cut ties with abusive people and obvious abusive habits - but I've just replaced it with self abuse and an endless round of putting myself down and berating myself for not getting it right.  I stopped other people doing it and just started doing it myself instead.  I hadn't even realised I was doing it to any great extent but there I am, getting in my own way, stopping myself from getting on with what I want to do and the people I want to do it with.  Why oh why do we do this to ourselves??!!  It's so maddening when you see something and realise how obvious it is - although you couldn't see it before. Amazing insight, Tupp!

Anyway - with this new revelation in mind, I have got my list of supportive people, places and activities and I am going to try really hard to refer back to it throughout the day to try to get my mind retrained to automatically reach for things and people that help and nurture, rather than heading back to the things that don't time and time again.  Amazing that our brains can be so brilliant and so daft at the same time :) xx

The mind is a funny thing.  I think you're learning how to be consistently mindful, SEE what's going on, and not shut down..... but notice, and accept what comes up. Consistently.
 It's my hope THIS is where true change begins.   

About seeking out negative things, about getting a shot of adrenaline to get through the day.....that resonates with me too.   I don't know how I got to that point, and I certainly didn't notice, but at some point it became a part of me, and I couldn't get OUT of it.  I'd tried, many times, but always got dragged back down by ongoing crisis.  The times I could relax into a more normal way of being, were blown apart, and I was back behind the 8 ball, even farther than before, bc I'd let my guard down, and the pain of returning to battle was "shattering" as you put it.  Absolutely shattering, and I had to build myself back up, and get on. 

Now I'm built, and up, and have to find a way to dismantle the armor, the walls, the left forward fighting stance, and what my body DOES with the adrenaline that's part of my life now.

How to switch up the adrenals, calm them down, and find a new normal.

I have another yoga therapy session today, and maybe that's part of it.  Just being aware is part of it, IMO. 

Once we've identified the pieces of our inner world, and routine that no longer serves.... we work on changing it.

I look at it this way, Tupp... we've done much harder things.

We've come out the other end.  We may not be whole, but darnit, we're aware there are pieces missing, and pieces we can retire, and pieces we need to find, and add.  We've done so many amazing, heroic things... we can do this too.

I think your strength might actually slow down the process..... your rock bottom is a deep deep thing.... you're just that strong.  Breath.  Let the bottom rise up, take it out into the sun, turn it around, look at it, marvel at it's depth, and accept it, embrace it, make a habit of addressing it... let it know you're OK, and have new plans for keeping you safe now.

I think working through it with your T, as you can, would be helpful.  It's a powerful thing to speak out loud what you fear most, what's haunted you deeply, and chased you underground so far.  It's a powerful thing to face it with compassion, in observation mode if you can manage it, and let it howl as long as it needs to howl. 

It's been standing guard, mounting defenses, and beating back assaults for a very long time.  I don't think your brain knows there are other ways.... yet.  You can find them, and focus that terrific mind of yours.....  it'll be exhausting to make those changes, IME, but worth it, and darnit.....
it can't be harder than what you've already accomplished. 

Just different. 

Lighter
PS I go through battles in my head too.  Sometimes I can catch it, but yesterday I didn't.  Yesterday I carted rocks, and embraced the mental struggle.... did it give me energy?  I'm sure it did.  Do I depend on that kind of struggle... now...., do I still run on adrenaline dumps?  I'm sure I'm somewhat dependent, even if it's much better than it was,..... I can find more balance, and I will.  Thanks for the reminder.... we mentally solve problems we aren't dealing with, and there's comfort there..... but it's less useful than it was.  There are more useful/constructive ways, and we're going to find them, and learn to practice them.  What becomes habit, becomes pleasure. 


Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 03, 2019, 01:39:59 PM
Tupp, wow.
Wow is not a big enough word.

Your depth of insight into yourself, your clear, sane and courageous examination of your own patterns and thought streams, are of a quality that completely dazzles me. This is where you are rich. You truly are rich in insight, and that's something no amount of money could buy.

I can't even say it much better except to say that I read you sometimes with my jaw hanging open, because you are THAT insightful, THAT avoidant of denial or deflection, THAT committed to responsible self-knowledge, THAT wise to your own patterns, THAT courageous in countering them.

You are just all THAT, Tupp.

I admire you so much.

love,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on June 03, 2019, 08:05:05 PM
About sleep and issues in general that we try to work on. If you ever get to sleep in do you feel better? Now that I have time off work and get to sleep in I still don't feel quite right/rested. I assumed I needed more sleep and that isn't the whole picture because more sleep if anything is making me feel more out of sync?

I don't know maybe it's quality of sleep not quantity, Maybe it's cutting out coffee. Maybe it's more exercise needed.

IDK sometimes I feel off and I don't know why. I've decided that more sleep for me isn't really the real reason under it all.

Anywho just a random thought. We are different people!! Everybody has their own issues and solutions I guess.

Some people say it's WHEN we sleep that is important not how much sleep we get. Someone once told me the sleep between like 8-10 AM is the most important of our whole night's rest...
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 03, 2019, 10:47:10 PM
I've read the brain gets rid of the sticky toxins ONLY when we sleep.  Our bodies heal when we're sleeping too.


Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 07, 2019, 11:10:21 AM
Will reply properly soon; busy few days but am popping in just to connect :)  Just wanting to write down before I forget - I'm trying to focus on how things make me feel rather than what I ought to do, who, what, why, blah blah blah and it was interesting yesterday because I spent some time with a friend and met another friend of hers and came home feeling lovely and relaxed, happy, smiley and in a good place.  Met another friend today and came home tired and feeling a bit frustrated.  It's funny because nothing bad happened; we chatted, caught up on each other's news, had a coffee - but I just didn't come away feeling energised and calm.  Not going to analyse it or think about it too much, just going to make more effort to see more of the friend that made me feel smiliest :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 10, 2019, 05:30:00 AM
Just wondering what you guys think about this - I've noticed recently that when I speak or text with friends who I feel have let me down/not been supportive enough/don't understand my situation - I tend to want to speak very negatively about how I feel and what's going on (focus on the bad stuff).  When I talk to good, supportive friends, I tend to focus on positives and what I hope to do - I still talk about the negative bits but I tend to balance it with "so what I want to do about that is ..........." and then focus on the positive or useful bit.

It made me feel a bit icky as I think it's a passive aggressive type thing and I hadn't noticed it before (you've upset me by not offering to help, I will tell you how bad my life is instead of saying "you upset me because you didn't offer to help").  But it also got me thinking that I'm happy to let go of friends who aren't supportive and focus on the ones that are.  So what I'm wondering is ....................... do you think I should still tell people I felt let down by them - even though I don't really want them around any more so it won't change the situation?  Part of me thinks it's a good exercise in being direct and if the risk is I lose the friend then it won't matter as I'm not keen anymore anyway.  Another part of me thinks I'm just going to be saying something for the sake of it as I don't feel (or want) it to change the situation.  And another part of me thinks if saying it makes them change and start phoning a lot or offering to come round I'll be obliged to stay friends with them and I don't think I want to!  Lol.  I think something inside me feels a bit guilty for moving on as well, but I'm feeling more and more that I want to spend time with people who I can learn from or really engage with on a positive level, rather than just filling time trading chit chat about nothing in particular (which has its place but I feel like I can get that anywhere, I really want more than that in my life now).

What do you wise owls think? xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 10, 2019, 09:07:52 AM
Dashing off the top of my head...

you are worried about feeling what you're really feeling... and how others see you, as a result. (I do it too.) Being gently more direct is more true to yourself, and actually frees the other person to exercise their own autonomy. Y'all aren't playing roles in a game anymore, ya see?

So, while not necessarily passive-aggro, it's sort of a smokescreen to hide yourself behind. Some general humor, while leading the conversation in a direction away from negativity - acknowleding the temptation to go there - but refusing to, might be a clearer way forward for you with people you're not willing to invest anymore time in.

There are so many ways we are conditioned to play these roles in our social lives. It's a whole topic on it's own. Past trauma, personality, needs, etiquette and social "currency" transactions... blech. Sorting out what we truly want from what we conditioned to expect too.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 10, 2019, 11:24:16 AM
I'd be tempted to re-write that "script" I fantasized, but the only real point of it was to use I-messages and to explain how you feel.

Example:  Instead of "you let me down" that would be "I feel very let down" or XXX, whatever the feeling is.

If you have decided a friendship's over regardless maybe a simpler "With my situation, I've got to know who I can rely on and it's not good for me to make most of the effort."

I don't know, I feel that's pretty lame advice to offer, Tupp. I'm sorry I don't have better insight.

As to not feeling relaxed and clear about the one friend, is that typical or an "off" time? That's the only way I could think about to evaluate it.

I wonder if keeping a separate little notebook that focuses on this issue only, because it's very important to your well being to build positive if not perfect connections and community. Your "PEOPLE" book. Maybe if you made little notes of how each arrangement/encounter felt, and then look back at them after a month, it'll jump out at you which connections are making sense and which aren't.

Fwiw, YOU make sense. You make SO much sense! I'd consider myself very lucky to have a wise 3-D friend like you, and we're all so very fortunate to be talking together here.

It blows me away, this place. Gratitude, gratitude.

Love
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 10, 2019, 12:29:59 PM
Hmmm. Just re-read your post and had another thought. (It's related to my earlier comment about I-messages, which are a form of health.)

Quote
(you've upset me by not offering to help, I will tell you how bad my life is instead of saying "you upset me because you didn't offer to help")

It just hit me that there's something here: In addition to the accusations ("You've upset me"--instead of "I feel upset") something else got me. It was another accusation ("You didn't offer to help.")

What hit me was that in addition to the accusations (which is not to accuse you of something terrible, but in confrontation, "YOU" messages always read as blaming, which instantly closes the ears of the other, because they feel accused and thus become defensive or closed off.) It makes it a fight instead of deepening the opportunity to connect by being open about the self.

The BIGGER thing that hit me was, Tupp did not ask for help.

Do you know that you can ask for help? Instead of waiting for someone to intuit and assume and mind-read and just offer? Yes, ideally someone would. But often people don't. Even good people.

There's risk in asking. The person can say No. The person can display indifference or make unconvincing excuses. But then, you know more about that friendship. You have more clarity on who you can rely on, who's worth your investment of caring and time. If someone says No, depending on the relationship, you might decide to try it twice. Ask for help again a week later. If it's No again, you know.

If you can endure the risk of asking rather than waiting for them to guess, and the risk of possibly hearing NO, you'd be completely real about who you are, what your life situation is, and what your actual needs are in friendship. You'd be speaking up. Saying, "I need some help with this and wanted to ask if you would XXXX (spend an hour with Son, bring me XXX from the store, whatever the favor is)."

I hope I haven't garbled this, but it hit me as an insight. (Hops gives self a badge.) It really is about I-messages. They're revolutionary.

Love,
Hops

PS--Another chestnut related to this, for me, is this one:
It's always okay to ask for what you want, as long as you release the outcome.

IOW, if we release the expectation that we control what happens next, and try to release that in peace, it's less scary to ask for what we want and need. Because if it's Yes it's Yes, and if it's No, we keep on moving to find another way to meet our needs. No time for recrimination or bitterness, it was just "No." No is a piece of information, not a judgement of us. It's just information. The answer from that direction was No...Oh.

One T I knew loved to explain the power of "Oh." It's so neutral. Somebody says something that normally would lance us with disappointment, and we train ourselves to think, "Oh." It's just...neutral. Information. We can take or not take any action we choose as a result, but it doesn't HAVE to be a bolt of pain.

That was a revelation to me, to try to feel that sort of peace inside. Nobody can do it all the time or in all situations, but I became a believer in the power of "Oh." (Maybe in Brit it's more like, "Right then.") ??


Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 10, 2019, 04:14:38 PM
Just responding quickly, Hops, as what you said made me think but it's nearly bed time and I'm too tired to answer all the replies lol, but didn't want to forget what popped into my head :)

I think with me, when it comes to help, if it is something specific ("can you babysit for me for an hour, could you pick him up from college, can we borrow that new DVD from you") then I can and do ask for help.  I think for me, what I need in my life now are those people who, when I'm up to my eyes in paperwork, struggling with menopause symptoms, detesting my house, feeling lonely, wishing I was ten years younger and just in that doldrum space, say "is there anything I can do?".  Who don't need to wait for me to ask, because they're perceptive enough and aware enough that things are really difficult.  And I think those sort of people who just ring for a chat or send me a silly text message to cheer me up or a link to an article they think I like, those little thoughtful things - I think it's that difference between people who need to be told things are difficult and asked for specific things and people who get that it's tough and just offer an ear or a bit of time without me saying anything.

Anyway I think that is all my thinking for now!  I'll think some more through the night, I'm sure, I'm off to bed now.  Night night and will reply properly tomorrow :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 11, 2019, 01:50:10 PM
Quote
what I need in my life now are those people who, when I'm up to my eyes in paperwork, struggling with menopause symptoms, detesting my house, feeling lonely, wishing I was ten years younger and just in that doldrum space, say "is there anything I can do?".  Who don't need to wait for me to ask, because they're perceptive enough and aware enough that things are really difficult.

I hear this to my toes, Tupp. I'd say I have one solid, and one almost so, people in my life now who check in. I basically feel as though these are the kinds of people I have a line to, and vice versa. Really, only one of them has that level of sensitivity; the other reaches out from loyalty and habit but isn't very empathetic.

The first one is very likely to move away within a year or so; the second doesn't take care of her health. So I'm very aware that even these kinds of good friends are not permanent nor guaranteed. And I do feel a need to always have more than one or two people in my life I trust at that level.

So...I think my basic thing still applies. My worst isolation developed when I basically didn't ask for what I needed, and I am positive it could happen again. Even now, I think, when meeting new people who might be compatible, there is always the chance to create a new and meaningful connection.

The thing that I believe helps filter those who might say "I've been thinking of you and know what you're going through; is there anything I could do?" is for me to say what I want from the beginning. And that means I need to tell people how I'm doing in my life, including biggest joys and biggest burdens. If that includes one day soon after meeting saying exactly what you said (symptoms, house, son, lonely) then I think I have to do it, rather than hope they'll guess, or hope they'll be that kind of perceptive person.

And then I get information in return. If they pull back, I know they're not looking for the same kind of friendship as I am. If they stay steady or step a little closer, maybe we're going to be able to become real friends and support each other.

All in all, I still think me getting what I want involves expressing it, which isn't necessarily asking one individual directly, would you be that sensitive friend who reaches out? But asking the universe for it by developing a pattern of being open and risking a No, while I repeat what is true for me. Because I have a right to be real.

And so do you. Nobody's all the same and your way of approaching all this will be right for you and true to you. I hope so much that if you do risk vulnerability and a few Nos, you'll soon find a true heart who also needs a friend, saying YES.

Because that would be one of the smartest Yeses that person has ever uttered.

love
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 11, 2019, 11:59:58 PM
I think that's true, Hops, and I am finding it easier with new people to be honest about my life.  One of the things that's always made it hard for me to admit any kind of struggle was the fear of it getting back to my mum, and that in turn getting back to social services.  I think that's underpinned a lot of stuff.  And I find the pain of speaking my truth, and having it dismissed or ignored, so difficult to cope with.  When my son was very ill, possibly terminal, and all I could do was wait to find out, the first two people that I told were so dismissive that I didn't tell anybody else.  I just couldn't cope with my fear that he was dying, the practicalities of his day to day care and the real lack of emotion from other people (not even a gasp of "Oh my God, that's terrible!".  Just almost no reaction at all, and certainly no "can I do anything to help?").  So I think all of those things have contributed but I am having better responses from new people I'm meeting now - more concrete.  I think something else I used to do was just be friends with someone because they wanted to be - I didn't stop to consider whether I wanted to, I was just always so grateful that someone liked me.  I don't feel like that anymore, I can be more detached and take my time and ask myself whether or not this is what I want.  So I think that's an improvement.

I do wonder as well if I'm just over thinking it and it's really more that life just changes and people change (or don't change!) with it.  I was talking to a friend yesterday who's in a similar situation to me (son who will require life long care) and we were both saying that we feel only other people in the same situation really get it.  She said she's just kind of gone off friends as time's gone on; she still sees them from time to time but they're not really on the same wave length any more and that's just how it is.  So perhaps that's just an element of it, things have just changed a lot and other people haven't changed in the same way that I have.  Probably a mixture of all those things.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 13, 2019, 11:39:12 AM
Just writing more things down here so I don't forget it later but boy, I am feeling so tired and drained at the moment.  Had a very frustrating conversation with the new social worker this afternoon - son will turn 18 next year so will transfer to adult services so they set the wheels in motion now, the idea being that the assessments are done in time for his birthday so we aren't left hanging without support (not that we have any support at the moment but that's the theory, anyway).  Which all makes a lot of sense and I'm glad about but I wanted to get a bit of basic information from her about time frames - how long the assessment takes, if it's more than one assessment, does she need other evidence re education and health, how long between doing the assessment until we get a budget proposal and so on - simply because I have got so much else on at the moment that I need to arrange things in the right order to make sure timings coincide and we get things through at the right times (some assessments link in to other assessments and his benefits all change again next year so we need evidence for that which has to be within a certain time frame and so on so making sure things get done at the right time keeps everything moving and avoids drama, which I really like :) ).

Was like getting blood out of a stone; she was very reluctant to give me any information and just kept repeating that she'd be doing an assessment and would tell me everything then - didn't seem to understand that I need some basic information about her role so that I know where she fits into the puzzle.  I got there in the end and the assessment is now scheduled but for five months later than she wanted which just shows that you need these conversations to make sure things are done at the right time - if she'd done it this month we'd have been out of date for some of it and would have to do it again.

That was exhausting and then we had a meeting at college about son's education plan - again, because we're heading back to court, I wanted to check what was and wasn't being provided, see what's still outstanding and who is responsible for it, as well as starting to plan what needs to happen next year because again, it all changes and things that are currently funded by education are taken over by social care so different assessments need to be done.  Found out that something that should have been done hasn't been, not a huge deal but it throws a bit of a spanner in the works and means another email to the solicitor to check their proposal is accurate, and throws out some other assessments I'd penciled in.

I'm not going to throw in the towel in a big huff about it all but it really isn't worth all the work and effort I'm having to put in, or the restrictions on our time because of having to limit what we do ourselves so he isn't too tired for college.  Son is not particularly enjoying it anymore either; I think the novelty has worn off and he's feeling tired and finding it stressful at times.  We've got a number of options so I'm just going to take my time doing research and figuring out possible scenarios and working out what to do next.  But the workload is huge and very frustrating and the stress is taking a real toll on me.  I got off the phone feeling sick, had a banging headache by the time I got to college and then started sweating profusely because my anxiety was up so high.  I think a bit of soul searching and some honest conversations with myself and other people is needed over the next few months :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 13, 2019, 05:48:37 PM
Tupp, I think all students get a bit stressed and overtired of school at the end of their first year. It's a normal thing when you're ready for a break. College is a big leap into a whole new landscape for freshmen - and for your son, having been homeschooled, he's also navigated a new world. Bet he starts missing his classmates in about a month!

That system of care support you're dealing with sounds like an absolute nightmare. Intentionally obtuse, even. How many assessments need to be done, before the Powers that Be read the previous ones? Not having any experience with that kind of thing that would be helpful, I'll just sit here and marvel at your skills in managing it all.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 14, 2019, 08:43:32 AM
Tupp, I think all students get a bit stressed and overtired of school at the end of their first year. It's a normal thing when you're ready for a break. College is a big leap into a whole new landscape for freshmen - and for your son, having been homeschooled, he's also navigated a new world. Bet he starts missing his classmates in about a month!

That system of care support you're dealing with sounds like an absolute nightmare. Intentionally obtuse, even. How many assessments need to be done, before the Powers that Be read the previous ones? Not having any experience with that kind of thing that would be helpful, I'll just sit here and marvel at your skills in managing it all.

Lol, no skill involved, Skep, I'm just endlessly ploughing through the same thing over and over again.  They are intentionally obtuse; the less the service user knows about their rights or the various pieces of legislation that underpin the less support the service user can claim, so the cheaper it is.  So when you start asking specific questions about how things are done or time frames, or about re-using previous information they don't like it, because it means they won't be able to do you over as easily.  There's also a thing about specific information, I find, they tend to keep things vague so that you can't use anything against them in the future.  They also have a thing where they're supposed to tick a box that they have a good working relationship with the family (which is why they like to do things like meet and greets) but my problem with that is that I don't want a working relationship with them - they're paid to do a job and I just want them to do it - I don't want any more to do with them than that.  So anything other than a direct trade of information is just a waste of my time and I never rely on them to give me accurate information, because they never do.  If I'd gone along with what she proposed yesterday we'd have had three meetings over a six week period before she started writing anything up and then that could take another three months to complete - and there's no guarantee it will be accurate so it might have to be corrected as well.  So you're easily looking at five to six months of faffing, if not more.  By the end of our conversation, she'd agreed we could do it all in one meeting and she'll score it as she goes so that she can give me a ball park figure for support costs on the day - which means I can start putting together a proposal for a care package straight away (and actually means I've already got a rough idea because they work on a points system, which is on the internet, so I can start doing some investigating now and just confirm things once she's done the assessment).  So instead of it taking six months we can do it in four weeks - which you'd think everyone would prefer, but for some reason they prefer to be inefficient and keep people waiting.  Baffles me.  But onwards and upwards lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 14, 2019, 10:29:15 AM
Hi Tupp:

Sorry the paperwork slog continues to be taxing and inneficient.  4 weeks sounds much better than many months to me too.

About the negativity w friends who don't understand or support you....I think we all require empathy and understanding.  I think part of you attempts to educate and explain to these folks, where the people who "get it" have validated, and heard you.  There's room for other things....positive things, etc.

Sorry I'm hitting high spots.  Oldest DD having wisdom teeth out now, so posting in waiting room.

Miss you guys.
Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 14, 2019, 05:01:29 PM
(((((((Tupp))))))))))
I so understand this:
Quote
I find the pain of speaking my truth, and having it dismissed or ignored, so difficult to cope with.

I found/find the same in speaking the truth about my D, either to existing friends/acquaintances or potential new ones...very difficult, too. I have found with practice, since it's not as raw for me as it once was, that it's getting faster and a bit easier to remain detached from the A-inadequacy or B-agitation or C-emptiness of people's responses. I know now that most people absolutely cannot take in the fact of estrangement (or for you: the facts of your life and load). So I try to treat it like, this is part of the weather, I need my emotional brolly for a moment here. And risk telling the basic truth anyway.

I think I reframed it for myself as a separate, personal goal: to get more comfortable (not meaning confrontational) in just stating what's true when I feel like doing it. Regardless of how someone reacts to it. Just liking myself so much that I realize to keep that info secret or suppressed or stuffed in order not to face another person's reaction takes just as much energy as speaking and coping-with-response in the first place. On balance, I've decided I like being real. If that limits my crop of potential friends, that's okay. Research suggests that only a few close friends is all one really needs to cultivate. I need a good-sized handful, but not 10.

As to the bureaucracy nightmare. I'll do mah thang again but because it's me, not because it's a good idea. Take with huge shaker of salt.

What would happen if you told this nice bureaucrat something like (HOPSSCRIPT ALERT): "This might be an unusual request, but I'd like to explain why it's important to me to have as clear a timeline as possible. I'm very mildly on the spectrum. I can be really efficient when I can plan things ahead, knowing what step of the process comes when. I know you may not be able to guarantee every specific date, but would you be willing to answer some extra questions about the timeline? Knowing how I need to plan for that will make my work for my son much easier. Can we proceed that way?" (If you get a No, you might kindly--not angrily--say: Oh dear, I can see this puts you into difficulty. Is there someone at another level who might be able to offer me that accomodation?)

That way, you might solicit her helpfulness...because she's in a helping role. Maybe, IF you are comfortable offering an insight about your own wiring as one reason, that would make sense, and she'd recognize that this would be a good way to be of service. Or understand your need, which was presented very logically. Responsibly.

(Of course it would not be good if you think it'd be used against you somehow. But it's a way to be real and share something that might motivate a decent human to slow down, spell out more dates/tasks you need to know about, etc.) Maybe you could do a gut-check about that individual bureaucrat, and decide case by case.

Or discard the notion immediately if it's a terrible idea! You're the one who lives with it.

SO much support and cheering you on...
love
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 16, 2019, 03:57:41 AM
Hi Tupp:

Sorry the paperwork slog continues to be taxing and inneficient.  4 weeks sounds much better than many months to me too.

About the negativity w friends who don't understand or support you....I think we all require empathy and understanding.  I think part of you attempts to educate and explain to these folks, where the people who "get it" have validated, and heard you.  There's room for other things....positive things, etc.

Sorry I'm hitting high spots.  Oldest DD having wisdom teeth out now, so posting in waiting room.

Miss you guys.
Lighter

I hope DDs teeth are okay now, Lighter, in or out!  I've always been very lucky that I have a big mouth with plenty of space for many teeth :) I hope she's okay.

The good news on the friend front is that I am making good connections with new people who are just lovely.  Very understanding but also very proactive - they're not sitting agreeing with everything and then doing nothing to change.  They're working together, helping each other out, passing on useful info and still laughing even when things are difficult.  They have a different energy about them to my previous friends who I am increasingly feeling little or no connection to.  We went to the sports group yesterday and gave another mum and her son a lift - they live near us and she doesn't drive.  I know how hard buses can be when you have a disablity and we have space in the car so it was nice to be able to help them out, but they're also just really nice people - very friendly and chatty and she knows other people who she introduced me to.  Chatted to another mum there who is also lovely, met her husband as well, they're just nice people with lovely kids who are amazing even though they have so many problems, bless them.  And sat talking to another mum who is 78 and still having to provide care for her 40 year old disabled daughter, even though she's been in a residential home since her 20s.  She gave me loads of information about provision for adults in the area; there are some really good projects going on that I will check out over the summer holidays.  But her situation is what I'm up against; even ticking all the boxes, there are still days when her daughter will not go anywhere unless they take her, because there isn't a staff member available, and they are still having to pay for medical equipment for her and organise appointments and so on because it just doesn't happen on its own.  The system is just inadequate - but, at least I'm seeing that early and i can find ways to avoid those problems in the future.

Tell DD get well soon from us :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 16, 2019, 04:15:30 AM
(((((((Tupp))))))))))
I so understand this:
Quote
I find the pain of speaking my truth, and having it dismissed or ignored, so difficult to cope with.

I found/find the same in speaking the truth about my D, either to existing friends/acquaintances or potential new ones...very difficult, too. I have found with practice, since it's not as raw for me as it once was, that it's getting faster and a bit easier to remain detached from the A-inadequacy or B-agitation or C-emptiness of people's responses. I know now that most people absolutely cannot take in the fact of estrangement (or for you: the facts of your life and load). So I try to treat it like, this is part of the weather, I need my emotional brolly for a moment here. And risk telling the basic truth anyway.

I think I reframed it for myself as a separate, personal goal: to get more comfortable (not meaning confrontational) in just stating what's true when I feel like doing it. Regardless of how someone reacts to it. Just liking myself so much that I realize to keep that info secret or suppressed or stuffed in order not to face another person's reaction takes just as much energy as speaking and coping-with-response in the first place. On balance, I've decided I like being real. If that limits my crop of potential friends, that's okay. Research suggests that only a few close friends is all one really needs to cultivate. I need a good-sized handful, but not 10.

As to the bureaucracy nightmare. I'll do mah thang again but because it's me, not because it's a good idea. Take with huge shaker of salt.

What would happen if you told this nice bureaucrat something like (HOPSSCRIPT ALERT): "This might be an unusual request, but I'd like to explain why it's important to me to have as clear a timeline as possible. I'm very mildly on the spectrum. I can be really efficient when I can plan things ahead, knowing what step of the process comes when. I know you may not be able to guarantee every specific date, but would you be willing to answer some extra questions about the timeline? Knowing how I need to plan for that will make my work for my son much easier. Can we proceed that way?" (If you get a No, you might kindly--not angrily--say: Oh dear, I can see this puts you into difficulty. Is there someone at another level who might be able to offer me that accomodation?)

That way, you might solicit her helpfulness...because she's in a helping role. Maybe, IF you are comfortable offering an insight about your own wiring as one reason, that would make sense, and she'd recognize that this would be a good way to be of service. Or understand your need, which was presented very logically. Responsibly.

(Of course it would not be good if you think it'd be used against you somehow. But it's a way to be real and share something that might motivate a decent human to slow down, spell out more dates/tasks you need to know about, etc.) Maybe you could do a gut-check about that individual bureaucrat, and decide case by case.

Or discard the notion immediately if it's a terrible idea! You're the one who lives with it.

SO much support and cheering you on...
love
Hops

I'm already ahead of you, Hops!  Explained how snowed under I am, single parent care, son needs 24 hour support etc, summer holidays coming up now so I have ten weeks with no time off at all so essential to plan ahead, etc, etc, makes no difference.  They just can't hear anything outside of their script.  I find the same when I call companies now - if what I want to know isn't part of what that person enters on the computer they can't do it or answer the question.  I think things are so systemized now that anyone wanting something that isn't on the list just bangs their head against the wall.  The thing that frustrates me the most is that she did eventually give me the information I wanted, after fifteen minutes of arguing back and forth and her insisting she couldn't.  So she was perfectly able to, she just didn't want to, and not being treated like an adult irritates me - it feels like the teacher telling you where to sit in class.  I increasingly feel that the public sector is simply an extension of the school system and if you're unfortunate enough to have contact with them you're treated like a child who needs to do as they're told and not ask questions.  But anyway - sorted now, she gave me the info I wanted, I've checked and some of it's wrong (no surprise there) and we're having one meeting several months away, which means I can get the proposal together, go through it with her on the day, tweak it and hopefully that means everything should be set up in time for son's 18th.  I may eventually get to a point where I have nothing to moan about :)  Lol.

In other news, I do think I'm spreading myself too thinly and trying to do too many different things each day.  I've had a thing in my head if I try and do a little bit of everything I'll chip away at the lists but I think now perhaps I need to stay in the zone and get entire projects finished.  So I'm going to try just focusing on myself and the house over the weekend and try to focus on getting paperwork out of the way when son is at college.  It is starting to clear; there's just so much I'm not happy about and I try to fix everything thinking it will make me happier but I think I'm going to have to practise just letting some stuff go and ignoring it and concentrating on what I need to do today, to make life a bit less stressful.

And in other, other news, I really fancy the acupuncturist.  He is so lovely and invited me to a wellness event that's going on locally.  I started to obsess - is he inviting me because he likes me or has he just invited all of his clients along?  So I have decided to postpone all thoughts of that nature for the time being - I've got too much else going on to give anything or anyone my time or attention at the moment and I don't want to build this up to something in my head only to realise (again!) that I've got the wrong end of the stick.  The trouble is I'm so desperate for company and love that anyone being nice to me takes on a significance to me that it often doesn't to them (from past experience, anyway).  So I'm going to carry on just trying to look after myself and deal with the paperwork mountain, have a nice summer holiday and put together a plan of care for son from his birthday next year.  One thing at a time :)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 16, 2019, 09:26:06 AM
Hi Tupp:

I think we're better off if we figure out how to stop worrying about what's coming, and deal with what's in front of us.  Maybe you're at the point where that's all you need to do.... is all you can do now.  I think that might not have been true, for many years, but that it will save your sanity. 

About the new friend group.... YES.  It's liberating, and validating to be around people who understand your situation.  It's demoralizing to speak to people who don't get it, and has always been a waste of time.... regretful, IME if I forget. 

People who aren't able to give back..... well..... if they understand you,... maybe they're still around, but not in your front row.  Not in your second or third.  Maybe your fourth row.  We refile people, and that's not a bad thing.  It's a necessary thing.  You can't be everything to everyone, even though you've tried.  Planning to pull back.  Save energy for yourself, your care, for you as priority is wise, IMO. 

I love that you feel the difference in energy of this new friend group.  People showing you how they've walked your path.  Sharing resources, working together.  Not losing their sense of humor. That's community.  That's walking with people who know your path.  People who can shine a light up ahead. 

About your crush.... just be you.  Don't assume.  Be curious, and see how the thing goes, as you've planned.  You'll get time out of the house with adults, and there may be someone interesting in that group, besides the crush. 

You're an amazon, Tupp.  Have some fun, breath stretch.  It's time. 

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 16, 2019, 10:49:07 AM
Hi Tupp:

I think we're better off if we figure out how to stop worrying about what's coming, and deal with what's in front of us.  Maybe you're at the point where that's all you need to do.... is all you can do now.  I think that might not have been true, for many years, but that it will save your sanity. 

Lighter, I think that's it, I've been trying to cover all the bases for a long time, it's like constantly running round the house trying to cover every door and window so no-one can get in.  I don't need to - I can focus on one particular thing for a day or two and get it out of the way, then move on to the next thing.

About the new friend group.... YES.  It's liberating, and validating to be around people who understand your situation.  It's demoralizing to speak to people who don't get it, and has always been a waste of time.... regretful, IME if I forget. 

People who aren't able to give back..... well..... if they understand you,... maybe they're still around, but not in your front row.  Not in your second or third.  Maybe your fourth row.  We refile people, and that's not a bad thing.  It's a necessary thing.  You can't be everything to everyone, even though you've tried.  Planning to pull back.  Save energy for yourself, your care, for you as priority is wise, IMO. 

Yes, they are a good group of people and I'm really enjoying seeing them a couple of times a week.  I've not fallen out with older friends, I just feel like they're more people I'll have coffee with from time to time.  I do need support, and fun!  And these parents do both.  I was quite struck with one at the weekend - she asked me how my week was, we chatted a bit, I asked her how her week had been and she told me a little bit about something that had happened that was very upsetting for her.  I was just struck by how different she is to people I've known in the past - although what had happened had been very difficult for her to deal with, she was still able to enquire about my week and she didn't monopolise the conversation, plus she'd dealt with it and was taking steps to try to prevent it happening again.  It's very different to friendships I've had before when someone has talked for an hour without pausing, hasn't shown any interest in what I've been doing and then continues to carry on in the same situation without trying to do anything about it.  I really admire her and enjoy her company.

I love that you feel the difference in energy of this new friend group.  People showing you how they've walked your path.  Sharing resources, working together.  Not losing their sense of humor. That's community.  That's walking with people who know your path.  People who can shine a light up ahead. 

About your crush.... just be you.  Don't assume.  Be curious, and see how the thing goes, as you've planned.  You'll get time out of the house with adults, and there may be someone interesting in that group, besides the crush. 

Yes, I've reined myself in!  I'm getting to know him through the appointments son and I have so we chat during them and he's just a really nice guy.  I've had to pull my brain back in because I do read too much into things so yes, chat, focus on sorting son and getting a life again and then see what happens.

You're an amazon, Tupp.  Have some fun, breath stretch.  It's time. 

Lighter

How is DD after having her teeth out? xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 16, 2019, 11:11:26 AM
((((((((((Tupp))))))))))) I hear you.
I can imagine how frustrating it is to deal with the system. I need to stuff the extra advice or imaginary "scripts" on that, as you've battled your way through it admirably and, considering the obstacles, hugely successfully.

A small thing -- from working in a whole lot of health promotion and marketing related things and events over the years, my guess would be it's an invite the therapist is issuing to all clients, rather than a date. Hope you enjoy the event!

Sounds nice to be treated nicely and boy do you deserve it!

Big hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 17, 2019, 03:36:04 PM
Hi Tupp:

DD is doing great.  SO much better than I did when I had mine out, for sure.  She actually went roller skating today, and wants to go work out.  There's a tad bit of bruising on the left side, but the swelling is going down.

I had a wonderful session with new T today.  I really liked her.  I'll share more about that on a new thread. 

Glad you had a nice conversation with the other mom.  Taking turns, give and take.... that's the way it's supposed to be.

:: nodding::.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 18, 2019, 11:41:53 AM
((((((((((Tupp))))))))))) I hear you.
I can imagine how frustrating it is to deal with the system. I need to stuff the extra advice or imaginary "scripts" on that, as you've battled your way through it admirably and, considering the obstacles, hugely successfully.

A small thing -- from working in a whole lot of health promotion and marketing related things and events over the years, my guess would be it's an invite the therapist is issuing to all clients, rather than a date. Hope you enjoy the event!

Sounds nice to be treated nicely and boy do you deserve it!

Big hugs
Hops

I am always happy to hear your advice and ideas, Hops, so don't stop it coming - it gives me something else to think about and look at.  I do feel fatigued with the whole system thing; it's like a hamster wheel that you just can't get off of.  The thing I find bizarre is that the whole reason there's so much state interference with children here is because it's supposed to enhance their outcomes - but it actually makes them worse.  I suspect it will actually be easier once he turns 18 because then it's just a question of 'care' and I should be able to get them to pay carers of my choosing for that, so it will probably all be a lot smoother and easier.  The constant scrutiny and need to meet outcomes melts away so I can get on with my own sweet thing and just do an online review of the situation each year.  Hopefully this time next year things will be a bit easier :)

And yes, I expect you are right about everyone being invited :)  I am seeing him tomorrow as son has an appointment so I will gaze from afar :)  Lol, can't go to the event as haven't got anyone to have son but it sounds nice so maybe if there's another one I'll be able to get along to that (and probably meet Mr Lovely's wife and kids :) lol) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 18, 2019, 11:43:36 AM
Hi Tupp:

DD is doing great.  SO much better than I did when I had mine out, for sure.  She actually went roller skating today, and wants to go work out.  There's a tad bit of bruising on the left side, but the swelling is going down.

I had a wonderful session with new T today.  I really liked her.  I'll share more about that on a new thread. 

Glad you had a nice conversation with the other mom.  Taking turns, give and take.... that's the way it's supposed to be.

:: nodding::.

Lighter

That's great that she's recovering so quickly, Lighter!  Really good news, and about the new T as well, I look forward to reading about that.  Yes, nice conversations, I like them, it's nice to come away from people energised rather than feeling exhausted.  Turn taking is good :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 18, 2019, 11:49:52 AM
Well, a general update :)  I've pared down what I try to do each day and it's amazing how much of the day is just taken up with the mundane, day to day stuff.  Very little time for anything else.  I'm focusing on cleaning the house at the mo and will hit the paperwork again once that is done (always feels easier to tackle paperwork when the house is clean, for some reason).

Son and I have been talking about next steps and at the minute I/we are looking at him doing another year at college and then switching to a home and community based programme again.  He's interested in starting a blog so I've suggested to him that we sort through his room, sell or rehome anything he doesn't use anymore (he's very keen to earn cash so he's up for selling a bit - although not much!) and then using his toys and books for ideas for him to write about things for his blog, maybe making little Lego videos to demonstrate things as well.  He's keen to do that so I think that will be our summer project.  I've found a great place locally that does tech based courses for kids who aren't in school so I'm going to contact them and see if there's a way of getting son involved with that.  We've talked about ideas for his bedroom to free up a bit of space and streamline things a bit and I might see if I can talk him into getting a new bed - his current one is really for a teenage boy, not the great big bloke he now is and I'm constantly worried that it might collapse at some point.  He's up for doing things which is good and he has a party tonight, which he's looking forward to.

I'm going to concentrate on getting him sorted out, trying to look after myself the best I can and just putting my feet up more.  I'm blooming tired lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 19, 2019, 10:49:30 AM
I've seen the social worker this afternoon.  Lots going on in my head at the minute and I am trying to 'do a Lighter' and just observe :)  But I wanted to talk through it here and I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you all have :)

Appointment has been booked since last week.  Have spent the last few days feeling awful - agitated, tired, stressed.  It's quite subtle and underlying rather than raging through me.  Have taken my supplements, CBD stuff, done a bit of yoga, read my book, tried to rest and have feet up which has probably all helped but didn't take it away completely.  Was thinking it was to do with pre menstrual stuff as well but most of it has gone since leaving the social worker's office so I think it is more a PTSD type thing (not self diagnosing with that but more trying to make the point that it seems to be a physical reaction to an old trauma that's triggered by a new event, even when the event itself isn't likely to be traumatic).

Not really sure how much else I can do about that.  I stopped seeing the previous counsellor because I didn't feel she understood son's disability or the demands of providing such constant care and the cost was crippling me as well (if I felt she'd really got it I'd have tried to find a way through but it didn't feel like it was worth spending the money).  I have got my name on a waiting list for local counselling through a charity which is cheaper but obviously there is a long waiting list and with son out of college through July and August it will be September before I can see anyone so still a way to go.  Although saying that hopefully this is the last time I'll have to see anyone from SS until November so perhaps it won't be an issue again until then anyway.  Waffle waffle.

I find it hard to be friendly and welcoming to them and I'm trying not to force it.  I've been polite but I feel that the social worker hasn't been completely open with me about the situation.  It has transpired the bulk of the weekly payment is to pay for a carer.  I had already explained, more than once, that care really needs to be provided at home but this is not what they do; the government has decided that children must be cared for away from their families, even if that makes them ill.  So we can't access what they've agreed funding for.  They have agreed to pay for some activities for him over the summer, which is a help, but it isn't a fortune and they will only pay the activity cost itself - there's no help with fuel, parking, or equipment hire, for example, which I will struggle to pay for so that will restrict the activities we do, as will the fact he gets tired easily so activities tend to need to be quieter (which they won't be so much over the summer as everyone's out and everywhere gets busy).  So I'm back in my usual situation of (a) feeling like no-one gets it, no-one has listened and no-one has been clear with me about what they're doing and (b) feeling very frustrated that there's a pot of money sitting there that would really help son with at home activities and at home carers but we can't access it.

I don't think there's anything practically I can do about this now; my focus is on the adult services assessment and switch over which is the next thing and I think it best to focus on that rather than worrying about this.  I'm not meaning to sound ungrateful either; I am grateful for the help but frustrated that there's more money available, but not for anything that would actually help us.  So I am again feeling that I just can't work within this system without it making me sick, which I want to avoid.

And that's probably it!  It felt like a lot more than that when I started writing lol, but the stress is going just because it's done now and I'm not thinking about it.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 20, 2019, 03:45:39 AM
I think the main problem is I can't cope with the huge surges of adrenalin that are created when I have to deal with any of this which is then followed by a huge slump that can last for days afterwards.  I'm utterly destroyed today - exhausted, sick, my head is pounding, my back hurts, my chest pains are frequent, it's hard to think or do anything other than keep re-running the entire events of yesterday over and over.  I've got things I can do today to help me get back to normal but when you take this and the days preceeding this of feeling so ill I've lost about four days overall, from a workload that is enough to keep four people busy.  All through having to interact with people who I just can't fathom out.  Anyway - nothing more to say.  I think I just need to focus on the legal side and the change to adult services when (I think) I can just be given the pot of cash to pay for carers and organise it all myself anyway.  That is probably the best way to go about doing things.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 20, 2019, 08:23:07 AM
About the only way that works for me to deal with adrenalin dump, is to quickly breathe my way to calm, or go do some physical but mindless labor task. Could just be doing dishes, ya know?

I think the worst habit that carries through from the past trauma is the over-active brain energy. Somehow we feel responsible for thinking through to a brilliant solution or outsmarting the difficulties. And flat out obsessed with beating the old head on the same brick wall till we bust it down. Doesn't work that way. Only makes things worse.

But it is possible to learn to "stop thinking" long enough for other brain skills to jump in and take the lead. Could be a meditative thing; could be body-mind work that gets you "in the zone"; some people run to make that shift. Not sure exactly how I figured it out, but I learned to tell myself to stop the hamster-wheel in my head and go to sleep, because the problem would assuredly be there tomorrow. And sleep was the thing I needed the MOST to get back at the next time.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 21, 2019, 11:26:12 AM
About the only way that works for me to deal with adrenalin dump, is to quickly breathe my way to calm, or go do some physical but mindless labor task. Could just be doing dishes, ya know?

I think the worst habit that carries through from the past trauma is the over-active brain energy. Somehow we feel responsible for thinking through to a brilliant solution or outsmarting the difficulties. And flat out obsessed with beating the old head on the same brick wall till we bust it down. Doesn't work that way. Only makes things worse.

But it is possible to learn to "stop thinking" long enough for other brain skills to jump in and take the lead. Could be a meditative thing; could be body-mind work that gets you "in the zone"; some people run to make that shift. Not sure exactly how I figured it out, but I learned to tell myself to stop the hamster-wheel in my head and go to sleep, because the problem would assuredly be there tomorrow. And sleep was the thing I needed the MOST to get back at the next time.

I think that's the key, Skep, it's finding the thing that makes it stop before it really takes hold, I just haven't found it yet!  The beach calms me enormously but only while I'm there; I got back in the car this morning after sitting there for an hour and within ten minutes could feel it all rising again.  Within an hour of leaving I felt as bad as I had when I got there.

What I did do this afternoon, though, was a sort of life audit.  I gathered together all my lists and notes and reminders of what to do and have divided everything up into stressful but necessary and deadline related, potentially stressful but can take longer to do (and it's stuff that hopefully will mean less hassle in the future so worth putting the time in in the hope that this time next year it won't be causing stress), time consuming and large projects that aren't stressful but will be quite a lot of work, ideas for money making from home or involving son so that I can try to find a way to make a living that isn't reliant on other people looking after him and then just the various things to do with the house, improving my social life, health and so on.  With it all written up in different areas like that I can see that if I put in a couple of hours a day just on the normal day to day necessary stuff and then focus my time on getting rid of the stressful and unpleasant paperwork as quickly as possible over the next few weeks, then I'll probably feel better just because my stress levels will drop overall.  Then I can start making dents into the other big projects and hopefully that will feel easier because the nasty stuff is out of the way, and maybe by the end of the summer I'll have my workload down to something that is manageable and won't generally be stressful day to day, as it is now.

I also don't really have any other meetings or assessments to do now; the next health related assessments will all be private ones and they're always easy because they just get on with it and write the report up properly so it isn't usually stressful.  Other than that it is mostly just reviews and much of that can be done on paper with minimal contact face to face so hopefully my overall stress levels will go down and the number of stressful situations I have to deal with will reduce as well so that might be enough to make it easier to manage when it does happen.  Phew!  I will be very glad when all of this is behind us.  It really has been a horrible year so far xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 21, 2019, 12:18:09 PM
Sorry the struggle with social services continues, Tupp.  It's real, and present.  There's a certain amount of stress we can't avoid, but I'm learning how to DO things to take the feeling of crisis and imminent doom away.

I'll post a bit here by I can't finish a new thread post.

First I downloaded an app called kardia anti stress breath pacer.  It's free.  It's a blue ball that gets bigger and smaller.  As written, I breath in as it gets bigger and out as it shrinks, concentrating on 5he outer edge works best for me.  I also fill my mind with intention before beginning. 

If I m really stressed I push on a wall or doorjamb with all my might while breathing the same way.  I can picture the ball or think the words here and now at each breath.....in is here....now is out.

I try to do these regularly to train my system back to normal.

Another technique is to walk backwards around a chair or basket....whatever you have handy.  Breathing is important, bc it signals there's no crisis to our brain.

I'm thinking of you,  but unable to post much.  There was a fire at the power station on the island, and it's  creating problems I don't want to list.  Can you say hotter than three hells? 

I'm grateful the power's staying on today as it's been out 6 and 9 hours the past two days.

I'm really using my new stress tools!

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 21, 2019, 04:24:03 PM
((((((((Tupp))))))))))

Quote
a great place locally that does tech based courses for kids who aren't in school

High hopes for this! (Vicariously for you, but I know you know better than to get hopes way up. Sure would be nice if he fell in love with woodworking or some kind of minor assembly work that could actually pay him one day.)

When you said PTSD it just hit me that this makes SO much sense. Was similar to my reaction when my new T said to me I wasn't just dealing with grief, but trauma.

The other association that popped up was the other night on 60 Minutes I was fascinated by a new treatment available (off label) from a few physicians. It's literally a local anesthetic injected into a nerve bundle in the neck that controls a lot of stress. It brought me to tears to see near-suicidal vets get on the table and 15 minutes later get up with smiles on their faces their families hadn't seen since before they deployed. And amazingly, even though the local wears right off, evidently the effects last unchanged for a long time.

Lay description:
'One treatment option increasingly recommended by physicians is known as stellate ganglion block (SGB). SGB is a local anesthetic injected into the stellate ganglion, a group of nerve cells and nerves in the neck that helps regulate the body's “fight or flight” mechanism.'

Study (military focused but some US physicians already realize that there are all kinds of trauma that produce PTSD, not just battle):
https://www.rti.org/impact/study-stellate-ganglion-block-treatment-ptsd-symptoms (https://www.rti.org/impact/study-stellate-ganglion-block-treatment-ptsd-symptoms)

Testimonials (soldiers, but you are one Tupp):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5uSLru6HQI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5uSLru6HQI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftx44fCRXH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftx44fCRXH0)

NHS availability:
https://www.pat.nhs.uk/downloads/patient-information-leaflets/pain/460%20Stellate%20Ganglion%20Block.pdf (https://www.pat.nhs.uk/downloads/patient-information-leaflets/pain/460%20Stellate%20Ganglion%20Block.pdf)

https://www.google.com/search?q=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&rlz=1C1AVFC_enUS735US735&oq=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&aqs=chrome..69i57.5766j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&rlz=1C1AVFC_enUS735US735&oq=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&aqs=chrome..69i57.5766j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

[This one DOES list PTSD!]
https://www.painspa.co.uk/procedures/stellate-ganglion-block/ (https://www.painspa.co.uk/procedures/stellate-ganglion-block/)

It could be fantastic if you could find a U.K. physician who'd let you try it. Because the more I think about what you've been writing during the interactions with social services (much less being an abuse survivor from both stepfather's rape and mother's direct threats to you and your child) -- the more I think PTSD makes sense.

Just a thought and likely a zillion obstacles. But just in case...

love and comfort and healing rest...
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2019, 04:07:03 AM
Sorry the struggle with social services continues, Tupp.  It's real, and present.  There's a certain amount of stress we can't avoid, but I'm learning how to DO things to take the feeling of crisis and imminent doom away.

I'll post a bit here by I can't finish a new thread post.

First I downloaded an app called kardia anti stress breath pacer.  It's free.  It's a blue ball that gets bigger and smaller.  As written, I breath in as it gets bigger and out as it shrinks, concentrating on 5he outer edge works best for me.  I also fill my mind with intention before beginning. 

If I m really stressed I push on a wall or doorjamb with all my might while breathing the same way.  I can picture the ball or think the words here and now at each breath.....in is here....now is out.

I try to do these regularly to train my system back to normal.

Another technique is to walk backwards around a chair or basket....whatever you have handy.  Breathing is important, bc it signals there's no crisis to our brain.

I'm thinking of you,  but unable to post much.  There was a fire at the power station on the island, and it's  creating problems I don't want to list.  Can you say hotter than three hells? 

I'm grateful the power's staying on today as it's been out 6 and 9 hours the past two days.

I'm really using my new stress tools!

Lighter

I hope the power gets sorted, Lighter, it seems there is always another problem going on at the island to throw spanners in the works each time!  I think hotter than three hells sounds perfectly acceptable.  Lol.  I hope it gets sorted out soon.

I think one problem is that I feel enormously resentful of the time I have to spend managing stress caused by other people.  That's the bit where I get really stuck.  I was talking about this with the acupuncture guy (this is one of the reasons I've been so starry eyed about him).  He commented that everyone is truly doing their best - but some people's best is that basically they got dressed and turned up for work and that's about as good as it gets.  I think that's my issue with it.  Other people's best is so poor it causes me problems.  I'm in a hugely stressful situation again now simply because this social worker didn't have an open and candid conversation with me six months ago about what happens next.  If she had, I'd have had six months to get everything sorted out and in place.  Because she didn't, there's really no point in my sorting it out now, because in just over six months he transfers to a different team because he turns 18 and I'll just have to do it all over again.

I think another problem for me is probably two fold - one is the view that seems to be held by many people we meet that 'normal' is what all disabled people should be aiming for.  So other people's opinions of what is good for my son is for him to be able to do more stuff that 'normal' people do - like going out more.  The problem for me is that going out more is tiring, because of his disability, and that then causes other problems day to day.  In order to go out more, he really needs all the support he isn't currently getting, like the speech therapy and occupational therapy.  They help with day to day tasks and challenges, which means he's less tired overall, which would then mean more energy for socialising.  So there's this constant and endless compartmentalising of his needs with no-one looking at the source and working from that point.  Essentially everyone's just chucking stuff into the pot in the hope that something will work and it's hopelessly ineffective.  I know what will work, everything's documented, we won at court - and it still isn't being done.  So social worker thinks she's being helpful by organising care for him, but she doesn't understand the amount of work involved for me in passing his care on to someone else.  There are dozens of things that have to be done a certain way to avoid stressing him out, umpteen little habits and routines that people need to know about to be able to look after him properly, and in particular they need to be able to manage the fatigue well, which for some reason seems to be impossible for many people we encounter, so the whole process needs to be done slowly and over a period of time.  And there just isn't time to do it now, and probably won't be from this point until next year.  I'm frustrated at not being heard - I explain until I'm blue in the face, I write it all down, I bullet point things, I give examples, I send in professional reports with relevant bits highlighted and do anything else I can think of - and it still falls on deaf ears.  Aargh!!
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2019, 04:11:22 AM
((((((((Tupp))))))))))

Quote
a great place locally that does tech based courses for kids who aren't in school

High hopes for this! (Vicariously for you, but I know you know better than to get hopes way up. Sure would be nice if he fell in love with woodworking or some kind of minor assembly work that could actually pay him one day.)

When you said PTSD it just hit me that this makes SO much sense. Was similar to my reaction when my new T said to me I wasn't just dealing with grief, but trauma.

The other association that popped up was the other night on 60 Minutes I was fascinated by a new treatment available (off label) from a few physicians. It's literally a local anesthetic injected into a nerve bundle in the neck that controls a lot of stress. It brought me to tears to see near-suicidal vets get on the table and 15 minutes later get up with smiles on their faces their families hadn't seen since before they deployed. And amazingly, even though the local wears right off, evidently the effects last unchanged for a long time.

Lay description:
'One treatment option increasingly recommended by physicians is known as stellate ganglion block (SGB). SGB is a local anesthetic injected into the stellate ganglion, a group of nerve cells and nerves in the neck that helps regulate the body's “fight or flight” mechanism.'

Study (military focused but some US physicians already realize that there are all kinds of trauma that produce PTSD, not just battle):
https://www.rti.org/impact/study-stellate-ganglion-block-treatment-ptsd-symptoms (https://www.rti.org/impact/study-stellate-ganglion-block-treatment-ptsd-symptoms)

Testimonials (soldiers, but you are one Tupp):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5uSLru6HQI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5uSLru6HQI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftx44fCRXH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftx44fCRXH0)

NHS availability:
https://www.pat.nhs.uk/downloads/patient-information-leaflets/pain/460%20Stellate%20Ganglion%20Block.pdf (https://www.pat.nhs.uk/downloads/patient-information-leaflets/pain/460%20Stellate%20Ganglion%20Block.pdf)

https://www.google.com/search?q=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&rlz=1C1AVFC_enUS735US735&oq=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&aqs=chrome..69i57.5766j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&rlz=1C1AVFC_enUS735US735&oq=stellate+ganglion+block+(SGB)+NHS+U.K.&aqs=chrome..69i57.5766j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

[This one DOES list PTSD!]
https://www.painspa.co.uk/procedures/stellate-ganglion-block/ (https://www.painspa.co.uk/procedures/stellate-ganglion-block/)

It could be fantastic if you could find a U.K. physician who'd let you try it. Because the more I think about what you've been writing during the interactions with social services (much less being an abuse survivor from both stepfather's rape and mother's direct threats to you and your child) -- the more I think PTSD makes sense.

Just a thought and likely a zillion obstacles. But just in case...

love and comfort and healing rest...
Hops

Ah thanks Hops, I will bookmark and hang on to it all but unfortunately I know from previous experience that PTSD here comes under mental health so the treatment is CBT and anti-depressants, neither of which have helped me in the past. 

It would be great to find something son could make some money from; for him I think it would likely be some sort of tech based or practical type activity that he can do in his own time, from home.  Those are the sort of options I want to look into for him.  Other parents have been very helpful with suggestions for places locally so I'm going to look into it all over the summer holidays and start putting together a plan.  I like that kind of stuff!  I enjoy the research and looking at ways things can be put together and he'll be able to give me his input as well which will really help :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2019, 04:16:09 AM
I posted before I'd actually finished, not sure where my head was at there!  But was also going to write that I have huge amounts of anger coming up at that minute about so many different things and that's really tiring as well, although I'm guessing it's better to get it all out and let it go rather than hanging on to it endlessly.  I'm writing it all down (privately, because a lot of it's vile and probably not fair on some of the people it concerns so it's definitely one to burn at a later stage but I feel the need to get it out of my system).
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 22, 2019, 03:40:37 PM
((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))

I'm sorry. I didn't know that a U.K. patient is not allowed to request a new or different treatment they've learned about. My doctor here respects my capacity to research things and if what I ask for is reasonable and evidence based (and not contraindicated by some other condition), he will give it.

Damn. I had hoped doctors there have enough autonomy to offer something new. And that you could choose to visit a doctor who does offer it.

BIG hugs, Tupp.

love to you,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 22, 2019, 11:30:44 PM
((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))

I'm sorry. I didn't know that a U.K. patient is not allowed to request a new or different treatment they've learned about. My doctor here respects my capacity to research things and if what I ask for is reasonable and evidence based (and not contraindicated by some other condition), he will give it.

Damn. I had hoped doctors there have enough autonomy to offer something new. And that you could choose to visit a doctor who does offer it.

BIG hugs, Tupp.

love to you,
Hops

No need to apologise at all Hops, I appreciate you taking the time to look it all up and have saved it in case I can use it in the future.  But no, the NHS service is generally very poor and there is no choice involved - you can only use doctor's surgeries and hospitals within a certain radius of where you live and then most of the time you will be allocated a doctor.  Waiting lists are incredibly long - many people with mental health problems generally wait over a year to see a specialist and that will be a 'general' specialist, not one who specialises in their particular problem, unless they just happen to get lucky.  There isn't a choice in treatment; doctors have first line drugs (usually the cheapest) to prescribe first, then if that doesn't work you get the second one, then the third and so on.  With mental health you'll generally be told at some point it's your fault and you exaggerate/attention seek/need to take responsibility for yourself and then when people kill themselves there's an enquiry, everyone promises to learn lessons and nothing is done.  In my experience emergency services are good but the NHS is the reason I am so into complementary therapies - it's the only way I can get healthcare :)  Unless their chosen meds happen to be the right ones for you then you're on your own.  It's very scary because everyone thinks the NHS is great until they have to use it for a chronic condition and then it's too late to get insurance because they won't cover pre-exisiting conditions.  Anyway, none the less - NHS lesson over!  I appreciate you taking the time to find me the stuff so please don't apologise xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 25, 2019, 07:21:33 AM
I think I broke.  And I think it's probably a good thing.  I know it sounds a bit weird but the last few days I have been so tired and the anger that's been pouring out of me has been so strong and unpleasant and difficult to manage.  I even had to say to son that I was in a really angry mood so could he please stay in his bedroom and I've never had to do that before (he was fine about it).  But I think something in me has just snapped and today I could barely get the energy up to get out of bed to take him to college.  I can't tell you how relieved I am that this week is his last and I have ten weeks now to recover.  I have just got to make my health a priority now and if that means that paperwork doesn't get done and money doesn't get earned and I don't see anyone or go out at all, so be it.  I just can't manage it all on my own any more and I'm not willing to give my health up.  So I went back to bed when I got home earlier.  I've had some lunch now, I'm going to walk to the shop in a minute to get some groceries, pick son up from college and then I'm going back to bed and the rest of the world can just carrying on spinning without me, quite frankly.  It does feel like it's time to let the pieces drop, let everything settle and then pick up what I need and what feels useful.  And that doesn't include stress, rushing around, loads of people who don't know what they're doing, friends who never call, friends who call with drama or nonsense to offload, annoying neighbours and everything else that just gets me down.  It really does need to be health first and foremost now.

I am also aware that it's my mum's birthday in a couple of days and I hate not sending her something.  I don't do it because I know it will be like poking the sleeping bear (as Lighter describes it) but it always feels wrong and I do wish that she'd made just the smallest effort over the last dozen or so years to try to change or reach out or just do something that showed she was able to contain her madness for a short while.  It does get me down.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 25, 2019, 08:22:26 AM
Doesn't sound weird to me at all, Tupp. (((((Tupp)))))

The strongest trees will break, because they don't bend easily when the winds are fierce.

Pick one thing a day, to focus on. Don't try to do everything all at once - even if it all NEEDS to get done. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But you can only do the one thing you're doing at this moment.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 25, 2019, 02:59:21 PM
((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))

You are a good person who sometimes feels the rage rush through. And what you do is protect others and protect yourself until it passes.

You are such a grownup; you awe me.

I am so glad you're resting, and wish to bits that I could be there to make you a cuppa when you wake from your nap, do funny faces and games with your son, bring in flowers, bathe the cat, and bring you a novel that will change your life for the better, drawing you in so deep that you come out with your soul bigger.

Hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on June 27, 2019, 12:38:29 PM
Hi, Tupp:

I don't have any answers, but I know your feelings belong, deserve attention, and validation.  They can't be blocked or pushed down.  They need to come out, and feel sunshine.

You've been so strong, so heroic, such an advocate for your son..... you're tired,  and angry,  of course you are. 

There's a new time coming.  One where you put yourself first, and build your tolerance for feeling safe and OK.  It's a new term for me.... PAT.... short for I foget what, but it's a THING, trust me. 

I've just learned how to FIND my safe place... so many ways to fail, or trigger or just not get it right, but I DID IT YESTERDAY, and will post about it on another thread.

Just want you to know this anger is a messenger.  How you've been doing things isn't working any more, and it's OK to STOP, and do something else.

You're so smart, and capable.... you'll replace the old with new, better things.

SO BE angery when you feel it come up.  Rest when you need to.  Drop all judgement around everything, and just pay attention to it.  What's going on around you... what do you smell, feel, taste, and hear? 

Breath like you're filling your lungs from the bottom to the top... fill your vase.  Slowly.   Then pour it out, slowly.

Focus on your breath, and know things will get better. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 30, 2019, 03:24:33 AM
Doesn't sound weird to me at all, Tupp. (((((Tupp)))))

The strongest trees will break, because they don't bend easily when the winds are fierce.

Pick one thing a day, to focus on. Don't try to do everything all at once - even if it all NEEDS to get done. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But you can only do the one thing you're doing at this moment.

That's good advice, Skep, and I have heeded it!  In the simplest of terms, as long as we eat we won't die and that's pretty much our only essential!  I just can't be bothered with it all anymore; I feel like I have worked all my life, in every sense - for money, to improve myself, to educate myself, to try to build friendships and relationships - and it feels like it just isn't worth the effort.  I was chatting to a guy the other day, friend of a friend of a friend kind of thing.  He lives in a caravan, does mostly gardening work (which he loves) and just moves around depending where the work is and what else he feels like doing.  Pretty low income but also low living costs so although he doesn't earn a lot he has money for the things he enjoys and he's just really happy.  Low key, doing what he loves and not fussing about everything else.  I was very envious!

So yes, am currently on a go slow, I'm doing what needs to be done and then just doing what I fancy.  Thank you :) x
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 30, 2019, 03:31:25 AM
((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))

You are a good person who sometimes feels the rage rush through. And what you do is protect others and protect yourself until it passes.

You are such a grownup; you awe me.

I am so glad you're resting, and wish to bits that I could be there to make you a cuppa when you wake from your nap, do funny faces and games with your son, bring in flowers, bathe the cat, and bring you a novel that will change your life for the better, drawing you in so deep that you come out with your soul bigger.

Hugs,
Hops

Aw, Hops, thank you, I really appreciate that.  The thought of you trying to bathe our deranged cat is hilarious :)  Lol.  I'm fine, I've just put down the enormous amount of crap I carry about and I just want to reset and get a life that's worth living.  College is over - hooray!  So we've got ten weeks now of marching to the beat of our own drum and I'm going to use that time to reset, think, rest and get some perspective.  I feel like life is always just reacting to each situation so I'm trying really hard not to react and to think, do I need to do anything, can I ignore this, can I leave it, can I do something else instead?  I sit on the beach and it's so lovely; the sand's warm, the coastline is stunning; truly beautiful cliffs and coastal paths and some beautiful houses nestled up on the cliff tops.  The waves crash or lap depending on the weather and we tend to go later in the day so it's usually surfers and dog walkers by then.  Really cute dog just came running over and plonked himself down on the blanket between myself and son; it's hilarious the way dogs just decide they want attention and insist you give it to them.  His owner was lovely as well so that chat was nice.  I just want more niceness in my life and I want my normal to be much happier than it is.  The beach trips reset me and just get me back to being able to cope again and I'd really love to go to the beach already coping and then enjoy it so it tops me up rather than just getting me back to manageable, if that makes sense? x
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 30, 2019, 03:34:16 AM
Hi, Tupp:

I don't have any answers, but I know your feelings belong, deserve attention, and validation.  They can't be blocked or pushed down.  They need to come out, and feel sunshine.

You've been so strong, so heroic, such an advocate for your son..... you're tired,  and angry,  of course you are. 

There's a new time coming.  One where you put yourself first, and build your tolerance for feeling safe and OK.  It's a new term for me.... PAT.... short for I foget what, but it's a THING, trust me. 

I've just learned how to FIND my safe place... so many ways to fail, or trigger or just not get it right, but I DID IT YESTERDAY, and will post about it on another thread.

Just want you to know this anger is a messenger.  How you've been doing things isn't working any more, and it's OK to STOP, and do something else.

You're so smart, and capable.... you'll replace the old with new, better things.

SO BE angery when you feel it come up.  Rest when you need to.  Drop all judgement around everything, and just pay attention to it.  What's going on around you... what do you smell, feel, taste, and hear? 

Breath like you're filling your lungs from the bottom to the top... fill your vase.  Slowly.   Then pour it out, slowly.

Focus on your breath, and know things will get better. 

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter, I do think of you when thoughts and feelings come up and try to observe it and see what it is rather than judging it or trying to push it away.  I think the big problem is time - when you have ten things to do and half an hour to do them it's hard then to take time to observe how you feel or think about it objectively.  But now college has finished for the summer we will have time so I'm really hoping I can spend this next ten weeks observing, letting things out, avoiding new stress and just generally moving ahead in a way that benefits me, rather than battling with so many people all of the time.  It feels like it comes from every angle at times and that's what I struggle with so I'm hoping I can reset now and change that around a bit. xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on June 30, 2019, 02:27:07 PM
Tupp, I loved every single word of this, so much I had to read it twice.

Quote
I sit on the beach and it's so lovely; the sand's warm, the coastline is stunning; truly beautiful cliffs and coastal paths and some beautiful houses nestled up on the cliff tops.  The waves crash or lap depending on the weather and we tend to go later in the day so it's usually surfers and dog walkers by then.  Really cute dog just came running over and plonked himself down on the blanket between myself and son; it's hilarious the way dogs just decide they want attention and insist you give it to them.  His owner was lovely as well so that chat was nice.

I hope something like this, simple or stunning, happens to you every single day. Or at least so often that beauty and nature feel as close as a true friend.

Enjoy your summer break...you are READY!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on June 30, 2019, 03:17:54 PM
Tupp, I loved every single word of this, so much I had to read it twice.

Quote
I sit on the beach and it's so lovely; the sand's warm, the coastline is stunning; truly beautiful cliffs and coastal paths and some beautiful houses nestled up on the cliff tops.  The waves crash or lap depending on the weather and we tend to go later in the day so it's usually surfers and dog walkers by then.  Really cute dog just came running over and plonked himself down on the blanket between myself and son; it's hilarious the way dogs just decide they want attention and insist you give it to them.  His owner was lovely as well so that chat was nice.

I hope something like this, simple or stunning, happens to you every single day. Or at least so often that beauty and nature feel as close as a true friend.

Enjoy your summer break...you are READY!

Hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops - I feel better already!   It's just not having the pressure of the week to deal with.  I've been able to rest, nap, eat, go to the beach, chat to son, catch up on here, watch TV, all without any pressure of what needs to be done next week.  Tomorrow might be quite busy but that doesn't matter because the rest of the week is quiet so it will balance out.  I think the summer is going to be fab :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 01, 2019, 10:23:56 AM
Hey... an idea, FWIW. Sometimes it works for me.

When I'm feeling pressured like that and I don't have the option to just take a day off... I remember that ALL the things I have to deal with are:

a) things I want
b) what I want matters
c) even if I have to do it all myself - I'm getting both A & B

Now, if I can just find a way to deal with the chaos that seems to follow other people who are swirling around in my life/space right now... and not feel like I'm being steamrolled flat.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 03, 2019, 08:59:10 AM
Hey... an idea, FWIW. Sometimes it works for me.

When I'm feeling pressured like that and I don't have the option to just take a day off... I remember that ALL the things I have to deal with are:

a) things I want
b) what I want matters
c) even if I have to do it all myself - I'm getting both A & B

Now, if I can just find a way to deal with the chaos that seems to follow other people who are swirling around in my life/space right now... and not feel like I'm being steamrolled flat.

That's interesting, Skep, because I think my situation is the opposite and I think that's what causes the biggest problem for me.  I very rarely do anything that I want - I'm usually doing and dealing with stuff I don't want to do, so I get angry and resentful on top of being tired, stressed, bored and everything else.  Even doing the stress relieving stuff makes me feel angry, because it just takes me to a slightly better place than I was before.  So if I start off at minus ten (zero being a sort of midline place that's neither good nor bad, just ordinary) then spending an hour at the beach takes me to minus eight.  And then going to collect son from college takes me back to minus ten, so it feels like it just keeps me slightly better than completely dead.  Lol.  What I'm finding so different this week (without college to worry about and without the pressure of having to be here and there at different times) is that, having had my 'breakdown' last week (I'm not really sure what to call it but me general feeling is 'I don't give a shit anymore' :)  Lol), I've only been doing stuff I like and stuff I want to do and the difference in the way I feel is huge, plus all my health related problems have subsided.  So I'm really hoping if I get ten weeks now of being able to fill up my tanks without anything being taken away again then I might be able to cope better once college starts again in September?  I'm trying to just focus on day to day and trying to stay 'in the moment' but after forty plus years of hypervigilence it is a skill I'm finding difficult to master!  But we can only keep trying, right?

As for other people's chaos - the only way I can cope is to keep away from people lol.  I've not mastered my own chaos yet so dealing with anyone else's is just too much for me.  It is tiring, it's hard not to get bogged down in it so I hope you're able to find a way to float past it :)  One of my friend's refers to it as OPD - Other People's Drama, which I think is very apt :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 03, 2019, 09:04:13 AM
Hi to you, Tupp!

I was just thinking about you this morning and then I was reading your post to catch up. I was thinking how many years you have been a caregiver for your son and how exhausted you must be.

I have kids with serious mental health issues that are now (after many years) getting onto their feet with the right meds and care. I remember well the years of getting up every morning to another day of everyone depending on me, and never ending crises. Its exhausting. And no matter how much sympathy you get, the day to day of it remains with you. I can feel your bone-tired weariness.

I love it that you are going to put everything to the side and just concentrate on basics. When I hit the wall, I walked and walked and walked and I do think that made a difference--not in my circumstances, but just the chemicals in my body. Once I even had a horrible argument with my ex while I was walking on a treadmill and I was astounded at how different I felt (yeah, I know: who has arguments on a treadmill?)

Just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and I sure get it how hard it is right now. You are a pretty awesome mom and it's not easy at all, but your immediate plan seems just what you need.

CB

Thanks, CB, it's good to have you back here :)  I'm glad your kids finally got to a place where things are okay.  It is exhausting; I don't think you ever stop worrying (although I think that's just a parenting thing in general).  What I find really difficult is other people getting involved.  It's very difficult to find people who will just do what I say and I don't mean that in a diva type way, just that my son has multiple problems, none of which are terribly obvious and most of which I try to help him with by preventing him from getting too tired or too stressed (because that then exacerbates all of his problems and then you get into this whirlwind of trying to deal with it all and it's awful for both of us).  But there's such an attitude towards parents here that we're all neurotic overbearing weirdos that the 'professionals' often won't listen.  So letting anyone else in means we're always potentially heading for disaster and that means I need to have the energy to cope with the possible fall out - which I don't have, and so we get caught in the cycle.  But I am feeling better this week for just putting the breaks on and doing what I want and sitting down on my bum when I feel like it.  It does make a really big difference.  Thank you for your kind thoughts and words and it's good to have you back.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 03, 2019, 09:17:56 AM
Well I thought I would give you all a little update as I am several days in to my, "I am broken and I don't give a crap anymore so everyone can get lost and I'm staying in to eat biscuits" phase.  I have to say it's going well!

I am feeling better, physically and mentally.  The lack of pressure to be at college twice a day has made a big difference, as has being able to take my time and do what I want to do, rather than having to focus on where I need to be to match the college timetable.

My initial idea of only being in this house for six months seems hilariously optimistic now.  I think it's more likely we'll be here at least another two years, if not longer.  Realistically, I need to sort all of son's college and healthcare stuff out before I even think about moving, and then I would be best placed to get some money coming in regularly and to save up enough to move again without having to borrow as I did last time.  So I think another two years here is minimum.  With that in mind, I've started on a major clear out and re-arrange again and it's going well.  I have a huge shelf unit in the sitting room that is just full of files and folders, with the top two shelves being piles of all sorts of things that need sorting out in some way or another.  I've cleared the two top shelves this morning (a lot of it was rubbish and just needed dumping) and I'm going to aim to sort through a file a day, if possible.  There is stuff there now that's so old I really could scan it and then shred the hard copies.  Some stuff is duplicated as well so I could do the same with that.  The paperwork remains a bit of a nemesis in my life so clearing through it whilst sorting out the current stuff will probably be quite therapeutic.  What's great about the holiday is that I can do some of the stressy, unpleasant stuff, and then go and do as much calming, relaxing, nice stuff as I like, because I don't have the worry of getting back for college that I had before.  So yesterday we went to the beach in the afternoon and just sat enjoying the sun, watching the surfers and being an old maid (I don't know what you guys call them but over here everyone seems to be wearing swimsuits that go up their bums!  We would call that a thong but is that what you call beach shoes?)  So I was looking at all these bums out on the beach and feeling like an old woman thinking, "we wouldn't have done that when I was younger" lol.  But it's nice, it's just real life, you know, feeling the sun and running the sand through my fingers and watching the waves crash.  It was lovely, and then we went to buy food for tea and again, it was easy because I didn't have to worry about son being tired from college and try to do it before I did anything else.  It's working well.

Son has been amazing; I wanted to try to de-clutter his room a bit and I want to re-arrange things in there and get him a new bed.  He is usually very resistant to getting rid of anything and we often end up putting everything back, or I sneak a few things into a box and hide them in my room.  But he was keen to help so a couple of boxes of toys have gone in to the attic and there's another box waiting to go to the charity shop.  There's a lot more to do but it was a good start and it was amazing that he was so keen to do it.

I have had a couple of blips with a phone call and an email from a speech therapist.  Any contact from anyone now just feels like a threat and the physical reactions are very strong.  But, again, I've got more time to deal with it now, so I was able to talk myself down a bit, concentrate on sorting out the lunch and then we're heading to the beach again for a while and then to do more food shopping.  We're doing a day trip tomorrow that son has chosen and he's bought a new computer game with his pocket money that we'll collect on the way so he's happy and things are going well :)  I will update with more improvements as they happen :) Thank you all for being there! xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 03, 2019, 11:35:52 PM
Ha!! @   "Well I thought I would give you all a little update as I am several days in to my, "I am broken and I don't give a crap anymore so everyone can get lost and I'm staying in to eat biscuits" phase.  I have to say it's going well!"

I know it's not funny but at the same time it is. We can't all be perfect and fab all the time can we.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 05, 2019, 02:48:11 AM
Ha!! @   "Well I thought I would give you all a little update as I am several days in to my, "I am broken and I don't give a crap anymore so everyone can get lost and I'm staying in to eat biscuits" phase.  I have to say it's going well!"

I know it's not funny but at the same time it is. We can't all be perfect and fab all the time can we.

Ha ha, I know what you mean, G, it is funny how deciding not to bother any more can be the most positive form of action to take.  I'm just so tired of trying to make life better and other people getting in the way of that.  So I have just thrown in the towel and funnily enough have felt happier and more relaxed since.  The sting of 'friends' not getting in touch or returning my calls has left me, it seems, and I'm finding it easier to focus on people who do keep in contact and on doing things that I want to do and enjoy doing, rather than what I must do all the time.

It is a lot easier for me to have my son home; it makes managing his health problems easier and that in turn reduces my workload so that has helped a lot and we've got another nine weeks of that now :)  We had a nice day out yesterday and we're out tomorrow so today we can stay at home and I can catch up on home jobs while he does whatever he fancies.

I blocked the hole in the fence yesterday in the hope that it will stop the annoying cat from next door coming in (she's cute but she keeps attacking our cat who is usually ferocious but for some reason seems scared of this one and runs indoors to hide.  Our cat has a stress related health problem so I try not to let her get stressed to stop that flaring up - we all seem to suffer from stress in this house!).  Just heading off for a nice bath and a productive day of getting things done but in my own time and at my own pace :)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 05, 2019, 06:14:12 AM
Just going to use this space to jot down problem things as I notice them :)

Washing up - we have a very small kitchen with a very limited amount of space and, it seems, a never ending pile of washing up, or dishes that have been washed and are waiting to be put away, or recycling that needs taking out, or various bits and pieces that need to go to the shed/bin/recycling centre or something like that.  It is an almost constant mess in there, mostly just because it's small so you only need one work surface cluttered for it to look messy.  I do try to tidy up each time I go in there but I feel like I never get to the end of it and the only time it's tidy is that small gap between me cleaning it and using it again.  Think I probably just need to work on not being bothered by the mess rather than stressing about it as I can't see any practical way to stop it getting cluttered other than never using it :)

I've just sorted out the big bookcase in the sitting room.  It is mostly full of files and folders relating to all the hideous paperwork; it's hidden behind a door a lot of the time so I can ignore it but it does tend to get cluttered with stuff that I just sort of bung up there because I haven't got time or don't feel up to dealing with it, so it just gets put there.  The problem I have with decluttering jobs like that is not knowing how long they'll take.  If I start it and don't have time to finish then it just makes the problem worse, so I often leave it.  I had plenty of time today, and as it turned out it only took about ten minutes to put things away and bung some stuff in the shredder so it was fine, but it made me realise how unfinished jobs stress me out because they're so unknown.  I also don't know how I'll react to stuff and doing anything with it upsets me, but what's good about today is that I can do some yoga now to work out the bad feelings.  So I think I need to take the next nine weeks as a chance to get all the horrible jobs out of the way, deal with all the feelings that come up because of it, try to work it all out with yoga, beach walks, days out and generally nice, healthy coping habits.  And then maybe if I've at least got the backlog out of the way and some sort of idea of what to do next in place by the time the summer holidays finish I'll be able to do the winter with healthier habits in place and it might all be a bit easier.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on July 05, 2019, 02:37:06 PM
Oh, Tupp.  So much of your post resonates for me right now.  Keeping up with clear counters in the kitchen, recycling, and paperwork.  There's SO much stress around paperwork, but I'm employing new strategies, and seeing how that goes. 

Remember you can push on a door jamb, with ALL YOUR MIGHT, if you're stuck feeling tense. 

Counting backwards....

Walking backwards, around an item in the room.... all these things done while breathing in, and out slowly, with intention.

Glad things are calming down with college out.  You're a giant, Tupp.  I know most people wouldn't be doing as well as you are.  You're amazing, and resilient, and I can't wait to see the next phaser  for both of us: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 06, 2019, 08:17:36 AM
I'm also connecting with the kitchen mess problem Tupp. With Steve here more often - and his different habits/standards - and a revolving door of guests the kitchen is constantly in some state of disorganization. Part of the problem, is people just eating when they're hungry and then running off to do something else and forgetting to clean up after themselves. (He is trying; I've noticed.)

Part of it is also, that we get conditioned to the pictures of "House & Garden" kitchens that have had a pro stylist come in and shift things 1/4 inch (or 5 mm) to make it "just so" for it's glamour shot. It's so PRETTY... ya know? And inviting. And we want that too. LOL. But it is sterile; posed; no life in it. No energy.

And if Buck comes here... all that will change again. Some of Hol's friends work in professional kitchens; I've been able to abandon the kitchen to them completely and when they've moved on to other things, then I go back and put things where I like to find them unless I'm also moving on to the next thing. I'm letting go an awful lot of the OCD/perfection stuff these days. There aren't enough hours in the day for that. And as long as I'm using that time for the important stuff in life... so what? I know I'll have another quiet time to go through and claim my space again.

I am highly territorial about my space - or at least, I have been. To absurd levels. But I'm now sharing a studio with Hol, Steve, and sometimes my house guests... and they have their own habits and needs/requirements for doing their thing. These days, I just roll with it. For me, that's something totally new... but it helps make this temporary living situation do-able.

So much for being a grumpy old hermit.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on July 07, 2019, 03:09:02 AM
I love Lighter's term for you, Tupp. You ARE a giant, especially on those days when you feel anything but. I'm sorry about your kitchen. You must feel as though you're rearranging peas in a thimble. I hope you are on the list for better housing and if there is any way to move up it...yet even if not, your inner minimalist may help. I wish I could.

Amber, what's going on in your life is just amazing! Will catch up on thr farm thread.

Xxxxxooooo
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 09, 2019, 04:40:56 AM
Morning, everyone, I'm very behind on all the threads (again) but am working hard on myself and just wanted to jot things down as I notice them so that they don't get lost in everything else that's going on.

I'm amazed at how difficult trying to look after yourself and rest and relax can be.  I'm having to work really hard at not working really hard, which is bizarre.  There are some things that still need to be done each day, of course, but other than those things I am trying really hard to only do things I want or enjoy doing, and to spend as much time as possible at the beach or snoozing indoors.  I am managing to do yoga most days, which is good, and I'm generally able to find time to meditate as well.

The anger is still a problem only less so now; I think having less day to day stress helps as there are fewer things to trigger me off.  The out of control dog situation around here is astonishing.  Someone about half a dozen houses away has huskies that howl, all hours of the day and night, a chorus of them.  One of them was actually at the window yesterday howling at the night sky.  Astonishing amount of noise.  They then set off several other dogs on the same block, the worst of those being the ones next door to us who seem to bark at the slightest noise and then just go for hours.  The owners yell at them, to no effect, and so it continues.  It is blissfully quiet at the moment; it seems there's nothing that can be done as words have been had; the dogs aren't being mistreated so the animal rescue people won't get involved and the local council say it's not a serious enough noise issue for them to get involved.  It is apparently an ongoing problem that's been happening for years and it seems that many people simply move away as there's nothing else they can do.  It always baffles me that anti-social stuff can be allowed to continue and it's the people who are bothered by it who have to move but there we are.

Anyway - I digress.  Grief is the overwhelming factor for me at the moment; it has knocked me sideways the last couple of days and I wonder if it underpins the anger.  I have felt more grief stricken than angry over the last day or two, although the anger is still present.  I am listening to meditation music that is supposed to help with grief and have been doing yoga to try to stay calm and balanced.  Son is being lovely and keeping himself busy in his room, bless him, he has decided that science is his thing and so has surrounded himself with all sorts of kitchen ingredients to make stink bombs and goo pies.  He's wearing safety glasses and my dressing gown as a lab coat, bless him.  But yes, the grief.  Two things have been very heavy on my mind this last couple of days, both relating to my mum (just for a change).

I think the need to keep her happy - which spilt into people pleasing and being responsible for everyone else in my adult life as well - might stem from her suicide attempt when I was four.  I don't remember it at the time, but she told me all about it when I was relatively young - maybe ten or eleven.  I think that sense of keeping her happy to keep her alive was perhaps there for a long time.  I can remember the pain of losing my dad very acutely and it still astonishes me to this day that literally not one person made the slightest effort to talk to me, comfort me, take my mind of it or do anything at all.  I'm aware things were different back then but even so, it seems mad to me that no-one even tried.

I think that links in to my taking it so badly when friends don't keep in touch.  I've been thinking about that a lot; it upsets me and bothers me, even when it's friends that I find a bit tiring or difficult to deal with so I don't actually want to spend too much time with them.  But I think that lack of reaching out when my dad died, and then my mum's reaction to my cutting off contact with her - has had a lasting effect and I think that's why when a friend makes no effort to reach out or contact me, I just kind of switch off.  I stopped talking to my mum thirteen years ago, and in all that time she's never once reached out to try to talk or change the situation.  Part of me is glad of that, because she's so messed up and destructive I couldn't have her in my life.  But the fact that my own mum was willing to let me walk away, for no reason other than me refusing to let her destroy us anymore, still weighs heavily on me and I think that's part of where I've got to at the moment.

Anyway - as I say, just putting it down so that I don't forget it all.  We have a quiet day today - I am loving these quiet days where I can attend to my own needs and not rush around all day.  I love having the time to think and reflect, rest or go out, depending on how I feel.  It's nice to be able to decide - that's enough - and just put my feet up and not do anymore.  I've decided to give myself two full weeks without any paperwork, so everything's just been dumped in a box out of the way and all the unpleasant emails have been swept in to a 'Need to Read' folder.  I'll get back to it next week, but I think I'm going to limit it very strictly to two hours a day maximum and that will have to be enough.  It will only stop controlling my life if I stop it so I'm going to have to put myself on a timer, I think, sit down, plough through what I can and that will be that.  I will catch up with all the other threads soon, thank you for reading :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on July 10, 2019, 02:25:59 PM
Morning, everyone, I'm very behind on all the threads (again) but am working hard on myself and just wanted to jot things down as I notice them so that they don't get lost in everything else that's going on.  That you manage to find the time to focus on your inner world, and DO that, consistently, takes strength, Tupp.  Again, I'm inspired, and awed by your ability to handle so many things, so well.

I'm amazed at how difficult trying to look after yourself and rest and relax can be.  I'm having to work really hard at not working really hard, which is bizarre. Do you think this is part of the PAT... learning to be comfortable with feelings of pleasure, and safety? There are some things that still need to be done each day, of course, but other than those things I am trying really hard to only do things I want or enjoy doing, and to spend as much time as possible at the beach or snoozing indoors.  I am managing to do yoga most days, which is good, and I'm generally able to find time to meditate as well.  Again, Tupp.  Your discipline, and focus are astonishing.

The anger is still a problem only less so now;I hope you've been able to let someof it flow through and OUT, Tupp.  However you do it, it's something you should allow to COME OUT, and be what it is.  Wherever it's coming from, it's human, and belongs.  I'm hoping you can find a way to honor it, acknowledge it, examine it, and release it. I think having less day to day stress helps as there are fewer things to trigger me off. You're entitled to that very appropriate anger, IMO.  It's safe to process it now.  I hope you feel you can, bc you deserve to access it, and stop stuffing it, if that's something you're doing.  I hope that doesn't sound bossy.
 So sorry if it does, but young Tupp gets to BE angry now, if that's what she needs to be.  It's OK.
The out of control dog situation around here is astonishing.  I hate the idea of having to wear noise cancelling headphones OR earplugs, gack, but that might be the best you can do.  People can be so dense, and rude.Someone about half a dozen houses away has huskies that howl, all hours of the day and night, a chorus of them.  One of them was actually at the window yesterday howling at the night sky.  Astonishing amount of noise.  They then set off several other dogs on the same block, the worst of those being the ones next door to us who seem to bark at the slightest noise and then just go for hours.  The owners yell at them, to no effect, and so it continues.  It is blissfully quiet at the moment; it seems there's nothing that can be done as words have been had; the dogs aren't being mistreated so the animal rescue people won't get involved and the local council say it's not a serious enough noise issue for them to get involved.  It is apparently an ongoing problem that's been happening for years and it seems that many people simply move away as there's nothing else they can do.  It always baffles me that anti-social stuff can be allowed to continue and it's the people who are bothered by it who have to move but there we are.  I've come close to driving a neighbor's dog into another State, I have to admit.  Auntie Helen was dying, and suffering, bc the dog next door howled all day, and that neighbor didn't have to hear Auntie H cry, or struggle.  We ended up putting insulation and foam in her window, and it still wasn't much better.  So sorry you're dealing with this.

Anyway - I digress.  Grief is the overwhelming factor for me at the moment; it has knocked me sideways the last couple of days and I wonder if it underpins the anger. (((Tupp)) You've lost so much.  Your father, and the mother/family you deserved.  The safety of protective loving family.  The care and protection of the loving mother you didn't have, but still hope for. The care,  and comfort of adults when you lost your father..... when you were figuring out your son's issues, and how to help him... you needed support, and help.  You have a lot to mourne, Tupp.
 
I have felt more grief stricken than angry over the last day or two, although the anger is still present.  I am listening to meditation music that is supposed to help with grief and have been doing yoga to try to stay calm and balanced.  Son is being lovely and keeping himself busy in his room, bless him, he has decided that science is his thing and so has surrounded himself with all sorts of kitchen ingredients to make stink bombs and goo pies.  He's wearing safety glasses and my dressing gown as a lab coat, bless him.  But yes, the grief.  Two things have been very heavy on my mind this last couple of days, both relating to my mum (just for a change).

I think the need to keep her happy - which spilt into people pleasing and being responsible for everyone else in my adult life as well - might stem from her suicide attempt when I was four. (((Tupp)))  I trust your instincts.  I don't remember it at the time, but she told me all about it when I was relatively young - maybe ten or eleven.  I think that sense of keeping her happy to keep her alive was perhaps there for a long time.  I can remember the pain of losing my dad very acutely and it still astonishes me to this day that literally not one person made the slightest effort to talk to me, comfort me, take my mind of it or do anything at all.  I'm aware things were different back then but even so, it seems mad to me that no-one even tried.  I'm sure there's sadness, and grief attached to these moments, Tupp.  Anger on top would be normal.

I think that links in to my taking it so badly when friends don't keep in touch.  I've been thinking about that a lot; it upsets me and bothers me, even when it's friends that I find a bit tiring or difficult to deal with so I don't actually want to spend too much time with them.  But I think that lack of reaching out when my dad died, and then my mum's reaction to my cutting off contact with her - has had a lasting effect and I think that's why when a friend makes no effort to reach out or contact me, I just kind of switch off. I think switching off would be one of the healthier ways to cope. I stopped talking to my mum thirteen years ago, and in all that time she's never once reached out to try to talk or change the situation.  Part of me is glad of that, because she's so messed up and destructive I couldn't have her in my life.  But the fact that my own mum was willing to let me walk away, for no reason other than me refusing to let her destroy us anymore, still weighs heavily on me and I think that's part of where I've got to at the moment.  That's crazy to read.  It's super crazy to KNOW that truth, and try to make sense of it.
 It's so unfair.  Crazy making ufair, IMO.


Anyway - as I say, just putting it down so that I don't forget it all.  We have a quiet day today - I am loving these quiet days where I can attend to my own needs and not rush around all day.  I love having the time to think and reflect, rest or go out, depending on how I feel.  It's nice to be able to decide - that's enough - and just put my feet up and not do anymore.  I've decided to give myself two full weeks without any paperwork, so everything's just been dumped in a box out of the way and all the unpleasant emails have been swept in to a 'Need to Read' folder.  I'll get back to it next week, but I think I'm going to limit it very strictly to two hours a day maximum and that will have to be enough.  It will only stop controlling my life if I stop it so I'm going to have to put myself on a timer, I think, sit down, plough through what I can and that will be that.  I will catch up with all the other threads soon, thank you for reading :) xx  Wouldn't it be amazing to have a happy functional life, despite the paperwork, people, and crazymaking situations?  I can see that for you, Tupp.  I hope you can visualize it for yourself.  Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 15, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
I'm also connecting with the kitchen mess problem Tupp. With Steve here more often - and his different habits/standards - and a revolving door of guests the kitchen is constantly in some state of disorganization. Part of the problem, is people just eating when they're hungry and then running off to do something else and forgetting to clean up after themselves. (He is trying; I've noticed.)

Part of it is also, that we get conditioned to the pictures of "House & Garden" kitchens that have had a pro stylist come in and shift things 1/4 inch (or 5 mm) to make it "just so" for it's glamour shot. It's so PRETTY... ya know? And inviting. And we want that too. LOL. But it is sterile; posed; no life in it. No energy.

And if Buck comes here... all that will change again. Some of Hol's friends work in professional kitchens; I've been able to abandon the kitchen to them completely and when they've moved on to other things, then I go back and put things where I like to find them unless I'm also moving on to the next thing. I'm letting go an awful lot of the OCD/perfection stuff these days. There aren't enough hours in the day for that. And as long as I'm using that time for the important stuff in life... so what? I know I'll have another quiet time to go through and claim my space again.

I am highly territorial about my space - or at least, I have been. To absurd levels. But I'm now sharing a studio with Hol, Steve, and sometimes my house guests... and they have their own habits and needs/requirements for doing their thing. These days, I just roll with it. For me, that's something totally new... but it helps make this temporary living situation do-able.

So much for being a grumpy old hermit.

Skep, a professional chef would run screaming from my kitchen :)  Lol.  I'm one of those people that wants everything to be nice and clean but doesn't want to clean it.  I hate cleaning, cooking, laundry, all the domestic chores, but I love it when the house is sparkly and smells nice.  Our kitchen is so small that you literally only need to leave a plate on the side and it looks cluttered.  Part of the problem as well is my current recycling phase, because I've been saving stuff up with a view to seeing if we can make or re-use things (it's one of my ideas for possible workshops to run with learning disabled people at some point so I wanted to try a few things out).  I did find a small fold up table in the shed that I'd forgotten about and it fits down the side of the fridge so I've moved quite a lot of stuff on to that which has helped.  But I think I need a chef and a cleaning lady :)  Lol.  And no, you're not doing too well at being a hermit ;) Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 15, 2019, 01:44:55 PM
Oh, Tupp.  So much of your post resonates for me right now.  Keeping up with clear counters in the kitchen, recycling, and paperwork.  There's SO much stress around paperwork, but I'm employing new strategies, and seeing how that goes. 

Remember you can push on a door jamb, with ALL YOUR MIGHT, if you're stuck feeling tense. 

Counting backwards....

Walking backwards, around an item in the room.... all these things done while breathing in, and out slowly, with intention.

Glad things are calming down with college out.  You're a giant, Tupp.  I know most people wouldn't be doing as well as you are.  You're amazing, and resilient, and I can't wait to see the next phaser  for both of us: )

Lighter

Lighter, thank you xx  I bumped into one of the other parents today and all the mums are tearing their hair out with their kids at home.  I'm the only one who prefers it!  I do wonder if it's because I home educated him for so long; he's very used to getting on with his own projects.  He makes little Lego films, he's working on a comic and a superhero encyclopedia, he likes to read and do 'science' stuff, loves dressing up so he just gets on with whatever he's doing at the time.

I haven't done a scrap of paperwork for two weeks now.  I will get back to it tomorrow but I am just done with it all.  I'm going to work in two hour blocks, four days a week and that's it.  I am going to try very hard not to let it upset me or bother me, or at least to do some yoga or go to the beach afterwards to blow it off a bit.  It's all so unnecessary, I think that's part of the problem.  But I am going to start working through some old boxes of papers that I can scan and then shred.  I was wondering what it would be like not to have the huge bookcase of files in the main room - just to have a unit full of well read books and photo albums.  My home used to be like that but hasn't been for so long now.  So that's a good thing to keep in mind, I think :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 15, 2019, 01:53:32 PM
I love Lighter's term for you, Tupp. You ARE a giant, especially on those days when you feel anything but. I'm sorry about your kitchen. You must feel as though you're rearranging peas in a thimble. I hope you are on the list for better housing and if there is any way to move up it...yet even if not, your inner minimalist may help. I wish I could.

Amber, what's going on in your life is just amazing! Will catch up on thr farm thread.

Xxxxxooooo
Hops

Ha ha, peas in a thimble is about right, Hops!  We are on the housing list but there's such a housing shortage we have very little chance of getting anything off that.  I do keep wondering if I should have stayed where I was as I had such a nice flat there.  I find it hard to feel okay about material things - my mum is so materialistic that I've always been the opposite.  But there does come a point where being comfortable and feeling happy to be home becomes important and I think I've got to that stage now :)  But at least as time goes on we can keep looking for something else and this place is slowly getting better organised so I will probably do my usual thing of moving out just after I get it all really nice :) Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 15, 2019, 02:01:23 PM
Morning, everyone, I'm very behind on all the threads (again) but am working hard on myself and just wanted to jot things down as I notice them so that they don't get lost in everything else that's going on.  That you manage to find the time to focus on your inner world, and DO that, consistently, takes strength, Tupp.  Again, I'm inspired, and awed by your ability to handle so many things, so well.

I'm amazed at how difficult trying to look after yourself and rest and relax can be.  I'm having to work really hard at not working really hard, which is bizarre. Do you think this is part of the PAT... learning to be comfortable with feelings of pleasure, and safety? There are some things that still need to be done each day, of course, but other than those things I am trying really hard to only do things I want or enjoy doing, and to spend as much time as possible at the beach or snoozing indoors.  I am managing to do yoga most days, which is good, and I'm generally able to find time to meditate as well.  Again, Tupp.  Your discipline, and focus are astonishing.

The anger is still a problem only less so now;I hope you've been able to let someof it flow through and OUT, Tupp.  However you do it, it's something you should allow to COME OUT, and be what it is.  Wherever it's coming from, it's human, and belongs.  I'm hoping you can find a way to honor it, acknowledge it, examine it, and release it. I think having less day to day stress helps as there are fewer things to trigger me off. You're entitled to that very appropriate anger, IMO.  It's safe to process it now.  I hope you feel you can, bc you deserve to access it, and stop stuffing it, if that's something you're doing.  I hope that doesn't sound bossy.
 So sorry if it does, but young Tupp gets to BE angry now, if that's what she needs to be.  It's OK.
The out of control dog situation around here is astonishing.  I hate the idea of having to wear noise cancelling headphones OR earplugs, gack, but that might be the best you can do.  People can be so dense, and rude.Someone about half a dozen houses away has huskies that howl, all hours of the day and night, a chorus of them.  One of them was actually at the window yesterday howling at the night sky.  Astonishing amount of noise.  They then set off several other dogs on the same block, the worst of those being the ones next door to us who seem to bark at the slightest noise and then just go for hours.  The owners yell at them, to no effect, and so it continues.  It is blissfully quiet at the moment; it seems there's nothing that can be done as words have been had; the dogs aren't being mistreated so the animal rescue people won't get involved and the local council say it's not a serious enough noise issue for them to get involved.  It is apparently an ongoing problem that's been happening for years and it seems that many people simply move away as there's nothing else they can do.  It always baffles me that anti-social stuff can be allowed to continue and it's the people who are bothered by it who have to move but there we are.  I've come close to driving a neighbor's dog into another State, I have to admit.  Auntie Helen was dying, and suffering, bc the dog next door howled all day, and that neighbor didn't have to hear Auntie H cry, or struggle.  We ended up putting insulation and foam in her window, and it still wasn't much better.  So sorry you're dealing with this.

Anyway - I digress.  Grief is the overwhelming factor for me at the moment; it has knocked me sideways the last couple of days and I wonder if it underpins the anger. (((Tupp)) You've lost so much.  Your father, and the mother/family you deserved.  The safety of protective loving family.  The care and protection of the loving mother you didn't have, but still hope for. The care,  and comfort of adults when you lost your father..... when you were figuring out your son's issues, and how to help him... you needed support, and help.  You have a lot to mourne, Tupp.
 
I have felt more grief stricken than angry over the last day or two, although the anger is still present.  I am listening to meditation music that is supposed to help with grief and have been doing yoga to try to stay calm and balanced.  Son is being lovely and keeping himself busy in his room, bless him, he has decided that science is his thing and so has surrounded himself with all sorts of kitchen ingredients to make stink bombs and goo pies.  He's wearing safety glasses and my dressing gown as a lab coat, bless him.  But yes, the grief.  Two things have been very heavy on my mind this last couple of days, both relating to my mum (just for a change).

I think the need to keep her happy - which spilt into people pleasing and being responsible for everyone else in my adult life as well - might stem from her suicide attempt when I was four. (((Tupp)))  I trust your instincts.  I don't remember it at the time, but she told me all about it when I was relatively young - maybe ten or eleven.  I think that sense of keeping her happy to keep her alive was perhaps there for a long time.  I can remember the pain of losing my dad very acutely and it still astonishes me to this day that literally not one person made the slightest effort to talk to me, comfort me, take my mind of it or do anything at all.  I'm aware things were different back then but even so, it seems mad to me that no-one even tried.  I'm sure there's sadness, and grief attached to these moments, Tupp.  Anger on top would be normal.

I think that links in to my taking it so badly when friends don't keep in touch.  I've been thinking about that a lot; it upsets me and bothers me, even when it's friends that I find a bit tiring or difficult to deal with so I don't actually want to spend too much time with them.  But I think that lack of reaching out when my dad died, and then my mum's reaction to my cutting off contact with her - has had a lasting effect and I think that's why when a friend makes no effort to reach out or contact me, I just kind of switch off. I think switching off would be one of the healthier ways to cope. I stopped talking to my mum thirteen years ago, and in all that time she's never once reached out to try to talk or change the situation.  Part of me is glad of that, because she's so messed up and destructive I couldn't have her in my life.  But the fact that my own mum was willing to let me walk away, for no reason other than me refusing to let her destroy us anymore, still weighs heavily on me and I think that's part of where I've got to at the moment.  That's crazy to read.  It's super crazy to KNOW that truth, and try to make sense of it.
 It's so unfair.  Crazy making ufair, IMO.


Anyway - as I say, just putting it down so that I don't forget it all.  We have a quiet day today - I am loving these quiet days where I can attend to my own needs and not rush around all day.  I love having the time to think and reflect, rest or go out, depending on how I feel.  It's nice to be able to decide - that's enough - and just put my feet up and not do anymore.  I've decided to give myself two full weeks without any paperwork, so everything's just been dumped in a box out of the way and all the unpleasant emails have been swept in to a 'Need to Read' folder.  I'll get back to it next week, but I think I'm going to limit it very strictly to two hours a day maximum and that will have to be enough.  It will only stop controlling my life if I stop it so I'm going to have to put myself on a timer, I think, sit down, plough through what I can and that will be that.  I will catch up with all the other threads soon, thank you for reading :) xx  Wouldn't it be amazing to have a happy functional life, despite the paperwork, people, and crazymaking situations?  I can see that for you, Tupp.  I hope you can visualize it for yourself.  Lighter

Thanks, Lighter.  I cannot tell you how much having all your sane, wise voices responding to my ramblings helps and calms me.  The PAT thing that you mention is hard to cultivate, isn't it, but I'm trying hard every day to be nice to myself, look after myself, not give myself a hard time and also to remember that much of what goes on in my head is only in my head - I can rant away about certain things or people and they don't need to know (I suppose in some situations they do need to know but when I'm in one of my ranty meltdowns I can just keep it to myself).  The hormones do have an impact but I think it's improving; this month has definitely not been as bad as last month was (although that could be to do with less stress because of no college - I'll have to see what happens in September!).

Son has plenty of ear defenders and ear plugs so I've been borrowing them but honestly, there were huskies howling at 4am!  And then at half five next door's dog was barking like mad and the woman screams and shouts at it.  We kept dogs throughout my childhood and of course they all bark sometimes but I've never known anything like this deranged lot.  Dense is the right word!  I might need to grow moss over my ears :) Lol.

I think a happy, functioning life is coming, Lighter :) I think I've stored up a lot of stuff I've not had the time or energy to deal with and it's starting to come out.  That's okay.  Our big thing is done, we moved, he's in college.  It's not going as well as I thought it would but he's happy and this time off (we've still got eight weeks holiday now) is so welcome and I'm hoping that starting this September calm, without a paperwork mountain to deal with and without the lengthy bus journeys that we were doing last year will mean I can stay calmer and happier.  I think we're all going to be alright, Lighter :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 17, 2019, 03:18:14 AM
Just scribbling down what's in my head as I'm quite confused about the way I'm feeling and thinking at the minute and I'm trying to unpick it all so that I can work out what to keep and what to get rid of :)

My feelings about and towards friends are very muddled and I'm trying to pick through them.  I've three friends in particular where I've moved to who I have been friends with for a long time and who, prior to and for a little while after moving, I've always felt very close to.  I thought that moving, at the very least, would allay my loneliness, but it's actually got worse and I've really struggled to understand what's happened.

I think the problem is I've changed a huge amount over the last ten years or so, for various reasons but much of it has been down to a lot of hard work, facing hard truths, cutting difficult people out of my life and so on.  I think the three friends I have down here have a lot of codependency issues, as I used to.  I've not found them very supportive of me over the last few months whilst I've been struggling and very tired.  I've not felt up to being around them (because I find them draining) so I haven't reached out and they haven't contacted me either, which I've felt very hurt or upset by, even thought I didn't feel up to seeing them because I find them tiring.  So that's kind of perplexed me; I'm not entirely sure why I'm upset about people who, if I'm honest, I don't really think I want in my life anymore, not wanting to spend time with me either.  It should make things easier but for some reason I've found it really upsetting.

What I'm finding very difficult is kicking off the past.  I am trying to see these friendships ending as a positive, because it gives me space for new people.  The mums at the group are great; very proactive and they've asked me if I'd like to get more involved in making the group bigger and expanding what we do, which I've said I'd love to do.  I really like the people at the eco group we've been to a few times; again, they're intelligent, engaged and proactive (proactive is a big theme with me, I've realised.  Son is now an adult who is dependent on me.  I also have to look after myself.  I don't have the time or energy to think for other people as well).

We meet a lot of nice people when we're out and about.  We've met nice people at beach cleans, in local shops and cafes.  The lady that's been cutting my hair is lovely, as is the chap that does my son's hair.  The lady in the local health food shop is very sweet.  The acupuncturist and osteopath are both lovely, particularly with my son.  The parents at the local sports group we've been going to are lovely and in general there's a lot going on here; people are busy and focused, there's a lot of outdoor activity and people just seem to be generally more aware of accepting and understanding of disability.  To give one recent example, we went to the cinema at the weekend and the chap who was ticking off the names on the list saw my son's T-shirt (which has the name of a band on it) and said - "oh!  There's a tribute act of them doing a gig at the such and such next weekend".  I know it's only a tiny thing but that's someone we don't know noticing something about my son's interests and giving us some information about something we could go to.  It was a really sweet thing of him to do and little things like that mean such a lot to me.  And we get that a lot round here; people are nicer and friendlier than where we were before.  So I feel that I should be feeling positive and hopeful and focusing on these new opportunities and possibilities in front of us - and instead I'm ruminating on these three friends who I'm not keen on anymore, but I'm upset that they're not keen on me either.  It doesn't make any sense and I keep telling myself it doesn't make sense and to stop doing it - but I'm finding it really hard to shake it off and focus on something different.  Why do our brains make us do the thing that isn't good for us??!!  It's infuriating lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 17, 2019, 06:47:52 PM
Two,

If we find a good friend I think it's like a miracle. To me it seems like a rare thing for a lot of people.

From what I can tell there are many people who are situational friends, classes and work, they come and go.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on July 17, 2019, 08:01:05 PM
I think sometimes the miracle has happened for me when I responded to someone else's need or loneliness, in a brief moment when I stopped being so conscious of my own.

Some really loyal and lasting friendships have come out of moments like that, sometimes simple ones.

Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 19, 2019, 04:27:02 AM
Tupp,
In my online reading this morning, I ran across a woman's account of her life--she felt that she was becoming angry with people and out of sorts in a way that didnt seem to fit her circumstances. She finally went to the doctor because it was so disconcerting to her (she sounded a lot like you in your post, genuinely baffled).

Turns out, she is in perimenopause and her rather sudden decline in hormones had precipitated that. Just as some people get morning sickness and some don't, everyone is not affected the same way by these hormone dumps. But I thought that was interesting and wanted to pass it along to you in case that's something you wanted to look into further. Even if you would rather not take hormone therapy, I think there are natural things you can do to help.

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out as a possibility. I have found in my life and with my kids that a lot of physical problems dont manifest in physical ways which can be really confusing and delay treatment for the underlying issues.

CB

CB, thank you, yes, goodness, so true!  I definitely have menopausal stuff going on and the angry stuff is definitely worse in the two weeks before I get my period.  I've been seeing an acupuncturist and the chinese medicine theory is interesting to me.  It's thought that different emotions get stuck in different organs, so what the acupuncturist is working on is clearing my liver, which is where the anger is thought to lie.  I think the idea is if there's no anger stuck in there, the hormone shift won't make such a big difference.  I have noticed improvement in the hormonal stuff itself - I'm not having as many nights waking up hot and sweaty (in fact this month I think it's only happened once) and I haven't been as sore and bloated so I'm hoping it might be easing a bit.  There are so many things that manifest themselves in physical ways, it's very hard sometimes to try to trace something back and work out where it came from.  I'm sometimes astonished that women get anything done at all; I've spent so much of my life dealing with periods and hormones it's a miracle that there's time or energy to do anything else sometimes lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 19, 2019, 04:30:32 AM
Two,

If we find a good friend I think it's like a miracle. To me it seems like a rare thing for a lot of people.

From what I can tell there are many people who are situational friends, classes and work, they come and go.

G, I think that's so true, and it makes me wonder if it's hard to meet real friends because we so often are doing things we don't really want to do - jobs that we have to do to pay the bills, classes that we attend because we want to do something and it's the only thing in our area/that fits with work/that we can afford - so much of our lives are situational, in some ways?  So I supposed it makes sense that most people we meet we meet because of our situation rather than through some sort of deeper link.  I yearn more for the deeper links, I think, but also feel guilty if I don't want to spend time with people because they're nice people, you know?  I just don't feel like I've got that deeper link and I really crave that now.  It's like wanting a really nice dinner rather than a sandwich.  Lol.  It's funny how we often have to make the best of something because it's kind of all that's there.  Happens in all areas of our lives, I think xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 19, 2019, 04:39:06 AM
I think sometimes the miracle has happened for me when I responded to someone else's need or loneliness, in a brief moment when I stopped being so conscious of my own.

Some really loyal and lasting friendships have come out of moments like that, sometimes simple ones.

Hops

Hops, that was really interesting for me, because I feel like I am in exactly the opposite situation.  I feel like my tendency to reach out to other people's needs is the reason I keep finding myself surrounded by people who only call me when they want something.  And that got me thinking about the difference between those friendships and the friends I've got who do call, chat, know where I'm at and so on.  And the difference is - they're the ones that reached out to me when I was struggling, rather than me reaching out to them.  Isn't that funny?  It got me thinking - and I think I've put this in a post at some point - that I have got to be more real when I meet people.  I always kind of adapt myself to other people - I ask them questions about themselves, I listen to what they say, I carry on talking about it even when I'm not interested.  I really need to push myself more to talk about myself and what I like and don't like, so that I get more people who really see me.  I think that's how I feel with some people; that they don't know me even though we've been friends for years.  Someone suggested meeting her for a beach swim when I told her I was feeling exhausted and wanted to stay at home and rest as much as possible.  And I can appreciate that she's trying to help - but apart from the practicalities of being so tired I can barely stand some days and of who will look after son while I swim - I'm scared of water!  So swimming in the sea is stressful for me - I do it if son wants to because he can't go in on his own but it really isn't something I like to do or find relaxing.  And I just wondered how someone can know me for fifteen years and know so little about me that they suggest something that's one of the things I dislike so much (I love being near the sea but being in it scares me).  And I think it's because I'm too passive; I let people talk about themselves a lot even when I'm not interested in what they have to say and I don't push forth about myself.  I need to try and change that somehow - I just find the practise of it much harder than the reality.  Isn't it funny how those different ideas connect together and help you see what's going on but from a different angle?  That's what I love about the forum, everyone's different thought and perspective helps you see your own more clearly.  So helpful xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 19, 2019, 05:27:48 AM
I'm scared of water too. A warm private pool okay but ocean or rivers nah.  invisable slime monsters

You get like anxiety and panic when you talk about yourself? I guess if you are afraid of losing a friendship you would do anything to keep them, not rock the boat, be agreeable etc.

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 19, 2019, 06:31:14 AM
I'm scared of water too. A warm private pool okay but ocean or rivers nah.  invisable slime monsters

You get like anxiety and panic when you talk about yourself? I guess if you are afraid of losing a friendship you would do anything to keep them, not rock the boat, be agreeable etc.

Exactly the same for me, G - I'm okay in water if I can see clearly and my feet can touch the ground and it's enclosed, like a pool.  I'll happily paddle in a stream or at the edge of the ocean but not being able to see what's down there, touch the ground, worrying about waves, rip tides, gusts of wind that knock you off course - nah!  It's not a relaxing experience for me.  Even boats; I get so sick just on a flat, faintly moving surface that it's best just to avoid them.  Lol.

Yes, lots of anxiety, I am far more focused on the other person and making them feel comfortable.  Which is okay in short bursts.  But I find it really hard, for example, to just say to someone, "oh, I just read a book/saw a film/read an article about................." in case it's something they're not interested in, in case they've never heard of it and they feel daft for not knowing about it, in case they think I'm weird for talking about something they've never heard of, in case it's a topic they find offensive, in case it makes them say something that I find offensive.  I think I just see opening up as a risk, plus when I do see people it's often in public places so I'm very conscious of what people around us are hearing as well.  I think I probably just think too much!  Should just talk and not think, it would probably be easier :) Lol

Something very interesting has just happened, though.  I've been talking to a friend who lives some distance away about how much I've been struggling recently, and she's just called to tell me they've booked a holiday nearby to coincide with my birthday next month so that we can spend the day together.  Now how utterly lovely and sweet and kind is that.  Made me cry.  And then also made me think, how do I attract someone that kind, lovely and thoughtful - and also attract people who suck every last ounce out of me and then chuck me on the ground when I say I'm too tired to do anymore?  And now I'm thinking again!  Lol, I'm going to go to the shop and think about groceries; it's easier :)  Have a nice weekend, G xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on July 19, 2019, 11:05:55 AM
I get it, (((((((((Tupp)))))))) -- the possibility of parasite people.
My empathic heart led me into toxic relationships too, and plenty of them.

But in years and years of working on my relationship with myself,
I did get better at it. I can enjoy both solitude and togetherness better, where the latter used to leave me brittle, scared and full of anxiety.

What I should have added about making friends sometimes when the other person
is as or more lonely than I am...it's more often been that the person is coping
with grief, illness, being new to town -- transitory life situations that I can relate to and offer
friendship by just making some time for them. If they seem permanently sealed in self-absorption, personality wise, I'm not attracted to making a connection. Because I know my stress limits and can't take on pure dependency. I can just "feel" that now, when I feel those tentacles coming from someone. I can sense toxicity (and indifference) much better than I used to, in my years of trying to milk turnips and suck water from rocks.

BUT. And it's a BIG "but." Some years back I figured out that the most toxic thing I was
doing was not being my own compassionate friend, who needs RECIPROCITY. Not just
proximity. Reciprocal interest (taking turns though sometimes with stretches where it's one-way because of a crisis situation, so not necessarily 50-50) and reciprocal caring.

Even with being tuned in to a new person's needs, these days, if the reciprocity of
support or interest doesn't appear early (despite what they're going through, it's just decent behavior to show SOME awareness--not in the acute pit of grief, of course, but in most situations), I will gently back out of forming an emotionally close connection. If they become stronger and reach out again later, then perhaps a new friendship is ready to be built. Or not.

I have a friend from grad school who's currently dying in a city not too far from here. She reached out to tell me (we'd been not close for years but I remained loyal) and was glad when I offered to visit. And when I wrote her about my M news, she was very happy for me, asking several questions, etc. I was touched by that. Our lifestyles and values weren't compatible for consistent closeness, and the interest was not reciprocal for a long time which really hurt me. But I never hated her for abandoning me (we'd been very close when younger), just grieved over it and finally accepted it completely. This end-of-life conversation opportunity is meaningful to me. I'll be glad to give her comfort. Partly because even in her situation, she has the grace to care about what's happening in my life too.

Instant grace or belated grace, I'm ready for it any time it can happen. Can't be forced but it does appear sometimes. In the meantime, it does help me love (and other times, forget) myself when I can extend love a bit. (When I'm OVER-extended, which you can relate to so much Tupp -- I don't go looking for that. I just keep it in mind as a general principle...reciprocity needs to manifest EARLY, before a strong attachment. Then it's not painful to gently step back from a new connection BEFORE it becomes a friendship, when I can see reciprocity isn't going to happen there. I can do it without anger or blame or judgement now. But for a long time, I couldn't, because I took it so personally. (Thanks, Mom....)

I've come to believe opportunities for friendship are actually abundant. All around me. It's been my own pain or fear that have prevented me from the enjoyable, easy, confident "catch and release" kind of approach. Like practicing. Trying it out with someone. Pleased when it works, let it go quite peacefully when it doesn't.

It's hard to just "go with the flow" when we need people and phamilies so deeply it feels like water. So we just have to keep giving ourselves water and working at it...how to grow connections.

I think the "how does that person not know this about me so they wouldn't suggest such an insensitive thing" is exactly what my friend who was mad at me for not taking care of her feelings (about the other friend she disliked being at my house that day) said to me.

And in my experience, she's risking wasting what has been a friendship we both valued. And because she decided to avoid me until "sometime in July", all this time after the stroke when I have been scared and needing to email or talk about it with close friends...not a peep of interest or concern from her. Very unfortunate, and I do miss talking to her. Yet...I can let her go. Despite a misunderstanding or disagreement, I would not shun someone who'd just been through that.

I just know I did nothing intentional to hurt her, she holds on fiercely to a "blame and judge" point of view, and if she can discard (or threaten to discard) me that readily, it's one of my weakest friendships. I'm going to reach out to her by the end of the month and ask if she'd like to meet and talk. If she does, I'll be glad. But if she doesn't, I'll realize she's stuck in a place where she can't. She has a complicated personality and told me often how important our friendship was. Yet--she can't forgive right now so she's dropped her end of "us" and I can't pick it up for her. Got my own end to hold. I'm sorry about it but not devastated. It's just a shame. Every friendship I have is important and I do hate to lose one. But when it happens, it's human, and the world won't ever run out of good people.

Yes to "talk and not think"! When a conversation is planned it's often awkward, that's all. It helps me in new situations with people to behave a little as though conversation is PLAY. What are we gonna talk about? I dunno! Oh, what she said makes me think of blah blah, and on it goes. It's a dance. Just take turns and be real while also allowing spontaneity. Express yourself. Let it be light and tune into eyes, expression, sound of their voice. If that all feels good, safe, welcoming, then share some of the darker things, the music in your life that is in a minor key. It's all music, all the same dance, we're all on the floor together.

love to you
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 21, 2019, 02:49:30 AM
I get it, (((((((((Tupp)))))))) -- the possibility of parasite people.
My empathic heart led me into toxic relationships too, and plenty of them.

But in years and years of working on my relationship with myself,
I did get better at it. I can enjoy both solitude and togetherness better, where the latter used to leave me brittle, scared and full of anxiety.

What I should have added about making friends sometimes when the other person
is as or more lonely than I am...it's more often been that the person is coping
with grief, illness, being new to town -- transitory life situations that I can relate to and offer
friendship by just making some time for them. If they seem permanently sealed in self-absorption, personality wise, I'm not attracted to making a connection. Because I know my stress limits and can't take on pure dependency. I can just "feel" that now, when I feel those tentacles coming from someone. I can sense toxicity (and indifference) much better than I used to, in my years of trying to milk turnips and suck water from rocks.

BUT. And it's a BIG "but." Some years back I figured out that the most toxic thing I was
doing was not being my own compassionate friend, who needs RECIPROCITY. Not just
proximity. Reciprocal interest (taking turns though sometimes with stretches where it's one-way because of a crisis situation, so not necessarily 50-50) and reciprocal caring.

The image of milking a turnip has got me laughing, Hops.  I think all of the above is what's relevant to me now.  When I formed these friendships thirteen, fourteen years ago I didn't do reciprocity; I did everything for everyone and never grumbled and of course that's the pattern that was set.  I also didn't have a disabled adult I was looking at figuring out a lifetime of care for, either.  I think that's the issue; I've changed but of course the other people haven't.  Then I feel guilty, which I know is stupid, but I feel like I changed the rules and now I'm angry with them for not changing as well.  Which is daft.  I'd say with these friendships it's 95% me, 5% them, which is nowhere near good enough for what I want now.  It got me thinking about how we're different with platonic friendships to romantic relationships.  If I kept telling people I had a boyfriend but that I only heard from him when he wanted something or he had nothing better to do everyone would think I was mad.  But with friendships it seems to be less clear cut and that's bothered me as well, I think.  But ultimately I want friendships that are roughly 50/50.  Like you say, it doesn't have to be completely even and it doesn't have to be even at all during a tough patch (on either side).  But I seem to have fallen into the role of 'contact when needed and ignore when not' and I don't like that at all.  My own fault - no boundaries in earlier days, and much more free time so it didn't matter as much.  But time is much more precious to me now and I want it to count rather than wear me out.  Definitely needs to be more like 50/50

Even with being tuned in to a new person's needs, these days, if the reciprocity of
support or interest doesn't appear early (despite what they're going through, it's just decent behavior to show SOME awareness--not in the acute pit of grief, of course, but in most situations), I will gently back out of forming an emotionally close connection. If they become stronger and reach out again later, then perhaps a new friendship is ready to be built. Or not.

Yes, this is what I'm doing/practising through the groups I have been going to.  In years gone by I'd have said yes to any invitation, allowed anyone who latched on to me to become my friend, not given a thought about what I was getting out of it.  I've already met a few who talk about themselves constantly - often quite entertainingly, so it's perfectly fine for a bit of small talk at a group thing - but I'll not be pursuing that.  I've met someone who seems nice, but I am taking my time and slowly getting to know them.  I've offered to help out a bit with the local disability sports club; I do think getting involved is a good way to get to know people as you work alongside them and it's kind of easier to get out of those situations if you need to.  Part of it with me is knowing what it feels like to be left out of things and not wanting anyone to feel like no-one wants them around.  But of course I have to temper that with losing what I want in the whole mix, but it's getting easier and I think I'm spotting the ones to avoid sooner.

I have a friend from grad school who's currently dying in a city not too far from here. She reached out to tell me (we'd been not close for years but I remained loyal) and was glad when I offered to visit. And when I wrote her about my M news, she was very happy for me, asking several questions, etc. I was touched by that. Our lifestyles and values weren't compatible for consistent closeness, and the interest was not reciprocal for a long time which really hurt me. But I never hated her for abandoning me (we'd been very close when younger), just grieved over it and finally accepted it completely. This end-of-life conversation opportunity is meaningful to me. I'll be glad to give her comfort. Partly because even in her situation, she has the grace to care about what's happening in my life too.

I'm sorry about your friend, Hops.  It's good that you're able to come back together now.

Instant grace or belated grace, I'm ready for it any time it can happen. Can't be forced but it does appear sometimes. In the meantime, it does help me love (and other times, forget) myself when I can extend love a bit. (When I'm OVER-extended, which you can relate to so much Tupp -- I don't go looking for that. I just keep it in mind as a general principle...reciprocity needs to manifest EARLY, before a strong attachment. Then it's not painful to gently step back from a new connection BEFORE it becomes a friendship, when I can see reciprocity isn't going to happen there. I can do it without anger or blame or judgement now. But for a long time, I couldn't, because I took it so personally. (Thanks, Mom....)

Yes, I think taking time to assess the situation before committing is essential!  I did develop a kind of three strikes rule a few years back with new people - I'll initiate three times maximum and then step back (three invitations, three times I arrange getting together, three times I phone first).  And then I don't do it again and wait to see if they contact me.  Most people don't and yes, like you say, the rejection is hard to take but is better than doing it for years (as I feel I have been doing now!) and then realising it's not reciprocal

I've come to believe opportunities for friendship are actually abundant. All around me. It's been my own pain or fear that have prevented me from the enjoyable, easy, confident "catch and release" kind of approach. Like practicing. Trying it out with someone. Pleased when it works, let it go quite peacefully when it doesn't.

It's hard to just "go with the flow" when we need people and phamilies so deeply it feels like water. So we just have to keep giving ourselves water and working at it...how to grow connections.

I think the "how does that person not know this about me so they wouldn't suggest such an insensitive thing" is exactly what my friend who was mad at me for not taking care of her feelings (about the other friend she disliked being at my house that day) said to me.

And in my experience, she's risking wasting what has been a friendship we both valued. And because she decided to avoid me until "sometime in July", all this time after the stroke when I have been scared and needing to email or talk about it with close friends...not a peep of interest or concern from her. Very unfortunate, and I do miss talking to her. Yet...I can let her go. Despite a misunderstanding or disagreement, I would not shun someone who'd just been through that.

I just know I did nothing intentional to hurt her, she holds on fiercely to a "blame and judge" point of view, and if she can discard (or threaten to discard) me that readily, it's one of my weakest friendships. I'm going to reach out to her by the end of the month and ask if she'd like to meet and talk. If she does, I'll be glad. But if she doesn't, I'll realize she's stuck in a place where she can't. She has a complicated personality and told me often how important our friendship was. Yet--she can't forgive right now so she's dropped her end of "us" and I can't pick it up for her. Got my own end to hold. I'm sorry about it but not devastated. It's just a shame. Every friendship I have is important and I do hate to lose one. But when it happens, it's human, and the world won't ever run out of good people.

Your friend sounds like a numpty, Hops :)  The swimming thing wasn't/isn't a deal breaker for me, it's just part of the overall examining I'm doing of that particular friendship at the moment and weighing up the positives (at the moment I don't feel there are any) against the negatives (which at the moment feel plentiful).  She's not a bad person, none of them are, I just feel that perhaps our lives are so different now and going in such different directions that I really need people around me who (a) do the fifty fifty thing and (b) get where I'm at and so don't draw from me yet another explanation of why I can't do something (which seems to be the central focus of every conversation I have these days).  Although saying that I didn't explain it, just said no thanks, but again through being too tired to go through it.  I feel like I need friendships that don't feel like such hard work at the minute.  So yep, I don't think your friend is being reasonable about the situation and she shouldn't have ignored you after the stroke, regardless of whatever else she was miffed about.  I'm glad you're able to let go if need be.  I think that's the bit I'm still struggling with.  Loving people, even though they're not doing me any good, and trying to figure out whether to stay or go.

Yes to "talk and not think"! When a conversation is planned it's often awkward, that's all. It helps me in new situations with people to behave a little as though conversation is PLAY. What are we gonna talk about? I dunno! Oh, what she said makes me think of blah blah, and on it goes. It's a dance. Just take turns and be real while also allowing spontaneity. Express yourself. Let it be light and tune into eyes, expression, sound of their voice. If that all feels good, safe, welcoming, then share some of the darker things, the music in your life that is in a minor key. It's all music, all the same dance, we're all on the floor together.

love to you
Hops

Love to you, too xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 21, 2019, 02:50:34 AM
G, were there other replies on here from you?  I thought I'd read some stuff and was going to write back this morning but can't find it now.  I might have got the threads muddled up, I'll keep hunting!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 21, 2019, 03:02:43 AM
Sorry I deleted it. Sometimes I try not to respond with something that sounds like advice. Like I think about something, write and  delete it. Also I was doing voice recognition so it was a little unclear anyways which doesn't help.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 21, 2019, 04:25:59 AM
Sorry I deleted it. Sometimes I try not to respond with something that sounds like advice. Like I think about something, write and  delete it. Also I was doing voice recognition so it was a little unclear anyways which doesn't help.

Aw, I got what you were saying but it was getting late and I was going to wait until today to write back :)  And I've forgotten a lot of it now as well lol, my brain is like a sieve, but I think it was about opening up to people and that being difficult?  Which I really identify with, although my brain is now saying is that what it said?!  My memory is so bad lol, is voice recognition where it types it for you as you speak? xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 21, 2019, 05:59:50 AM
I've just realised, in the midst of my warbling mindset, that a big part of the problem I have with friends is that I don't like to discard them once I no longer have a use for them.  It feels like a very narcissistic thing to do - I've taken what I need from you and I have no use for you now.  It happens to me a lot and I hate it, so I hate doing it to other people.  But I have realised that you can just get to a point in life where certain friends don't fit any more and I think that's what's happening to me now.  I really want to be around people I can learn from and absorb information, advice and energy from.  I think perhaps I've done that for a people a lot in the past (and found it exhausting) but my time is very limited now (because of my son) so I feel like I want to spend time with people who at least understand what the situation is.  I find constantly explaining what we can and can't do exhausting and I feel like I spend a lot of my time with people who need the explanation.  Today I want to spend mostly in bed, and I can because I've very purposely not been arranging things so I can be flexible and meet my own needs rather than worrying about anyone else.  I think perhaps that's it; I just need to concentrate on moving forward in my own way and under my own steam and if people join in then great, but if people get left behind then perhaps it's just time to say that chapter's over and move on.  Growing isn't easy!  It feels bloody exhausting a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 24, 2019, 04:38:56 AM
How do you guys cope with feelings of guilt?  I am struggling at the minute.  I want/need to reduce a couple of friendships - not cut them off completely or fall out with them but I am realising that I want more than some people can give me and rather than spending time and energy who can't give me what I need I want to keep the space open to look after myself and hopefully meet more people on the same wavelength.

I feel guilty about doing it - they're good people and they haven't done anything wrong, but I've realised for me that reciprocity (as Hops mentions) is important, as is regular contact.  It doesn't have to daily or for many many hours but a text message now and again with no agenda other than "how are you, what are you up to" means a lot to me and is something I want in my life (and am lucky enough to get from some people).  I also feel like I need deep connections, like the ones I have on here.  I want to be able to have some conversations in real life in the same way that I do with you guys.  So I need to free myself up a bit from this but feel guilty about doing it.  Any tips?

My other guilt point is my mum, partly brought on by something G says in one of her threads about her mum being defined by the men in her life.  I am aware that women's lib didn't exist when my mum was born; she grew up in a world where women were expected to look nice, keep house and keep quiet.  Her education was basic, even though she's intelligent, and her own home life wasn't nice.  Life was generally tougher in those days with fewer distractions (I think of the times I veg in front of the TV for nine hours to block out the loneliness or the boredom and ask myself what my mum would have been able to do years ago when it wasn't possible to watch telly for nine hours?).  Her turning to drink seems inevitable.  She is herself trapped in an abusive relationship, albeit a luxurious one, so she doesn't see it that way, but he controls everything she does.  So there are a lot of negatives there and she did grow up in a different world to the one I grew up in.  That said, she has had opportunities to do something about it and has chosen not to but again, sometimes the pain of facing up to what made you the way you are is too much.  None of that excuses the things she's done and I don't want to engage with her - poking the sleeping bear is the way Lighter puts it and that's absolutely right.  But there are times when I wish I could mother her and give her what she never got and what I think that little girl inside her still desperately wants.  So I'm feeling guilty about my mum at the moment.  I'm aware she's getting older and that she has health problems and it is alien to me to leave an older person to get on with it and not give two hoots.  It just jars with everything I think is important in the world, but at the same time I can't bear to be anywhere near her all the time her husband is still alive.  Just the thought of him still makes my flesh crawl.  I find myself picturing one scenario where my mum dies suddenly and that's it, there's no getting older and needing help stage.  Alternatively I see him dying first and there being a reconnection between myself and my mum (which realistically would be a disaster but some part of me feels that I need to see or speak to her before she dies).  I find the prospect of having to manage the least damaging scenario unappealing and alien but equally feel guilty about not being able to make things different.  Which I know makes no sense and I know there's no point to guilt - but it is still there :)

Anyway - picnic in the park this morning with the nice mums.  Son is doing art and craft at college, I've got the nice mums meeting, then some jobs to do in town and then getting my back done.  Son will be collected, we'll be home by about 3.30pm and for the first time in months I feel like I have a manageable workload in front of me.  That is all good.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 24, 2019, 06:05:22 PM
The emotional struggle is real. With both the friend situation and the mum situation.

Picnic sounds kinda pleasant.



Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on July 25, 2019, 01:20:07 AM
I hope the rest of your day went well, Tupp.
Sounded like some good getting out.

About the guilt over friends who are less supportive than you need. Instead of framing it to yourself that you are "discarding" them, could you instead try thinking about them with gratitude without the guilt? More like privately "thanking and releasing them" (from your expectations)? IOW, you can stop bothering about as much contact, but leave the angst over it behind. You can love yourself AND old but ineffective friends. Just by thinking of them peacefully; loving them doesn't mean staying locked in a harmful painful yearning. You can love people without being much in touch. Maybe you feel gratitude for times when it did click well and meet mutual needs, and "releasing them" from keeping up with your present self. You have grown and changed and are seeking more. And that's okay and it's normal and LOADS of people evolve through relationships that way throughout life.

It doesn't make you an N or a "discarder" of people. Friendship is an active thing, if it's satisfying. And when it becomes clear it's not and can't be...it's okay to think of it as a relationship that worked once, but isn't active in your life now. With peace.

As to the Mom guilt, you do have compassion for her, but your compassion for your own hurt girl-self, who was so badly injured by her behavior, plus the monster's, has got to take priority. Perhaps if monster dies first, you'll be able to have some visits and closure with her. Even if it doesn't work out that way, you'll still find your way to that peace. You've punished yourself enough. And your Mom's age and declining health is sad for her as for every old person, but it comes to every single one of us and is a natural if poignant part of life.

You know you can't change that. But perhaps as you continue your deep work on self-healing and finding ways to carry on, you will somehow connect with the little seed of mothering in yourself that did not grow in her. It's not present in her body and her mind as she lives now, but mothering is still in you, and in the world around you. You can find it for yourself as so many have to do, and in doing that, I believe you will find peace about her. (She will find her own comforts as life winds down, because the seeds of that are in her, too. It's not on you to fix it for her, though in an ideal universe, of course you'd like to.)

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 25, 2019, 01:42:46 AM
The emotional struggle is real. With both the friend situation and the mum situation.

Picnic sounds kinda pleasant.

Thanks, G, it's amazing how hard emotional stuff can be!  Really pulls us down sometimes.  I'm so grateful I've got you guys :)

The picnic was nice, no drama :)  That's what I like about this group, there's no theatrics, just people pulling together during a tough time.  I keep saying it's a mum group but there are a few dads there as well and a couple of new ones were there yesterday.  I also discovered that there's a disabled swing at the park; I'm not sure if son would still want to do that but he used to love being in a swing so it's something else to suggest to him over the summer :)  The osteopath worked a miracle with my jaw as well; she said it had seized up which is why my headaches have been so bad.  So all good in the end.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 25, 2019, 01:54:56 AM
I hope the rest of your day went well, Tupp.
Sounded like some good getting out.

About the guilt over friends who are less supportive than you need. Instead of framing it to yourself that you are "discarding" them, could you instead try thinking about them with gratitude without the guilt? More like privately "thanking and releasing them" (from your expectations)? IOW, you can stop bothering about as much contact, but leave the angst over it behind. You can love yourself AND old but ineffective friends. Just by thinking of them peacefully; loving them doesn't mean staying locked in a harmful painful yearning. You can love people without being much in touch. Maybe you feel gratitude for times when it did click well and meet mutual needs, and "releasing them" from keeping up with your present self. You have grown and changed and are seeking more. And that's okay and it's normal and LOADS of people evolve through relationships that way throughout life.

It doesn't make you an N or a "discarder" of people. Friendship is an active thing, if it's satisfying. And when it becomes clear it's not and can't be...it's okay to think of it as a relationship that worked once, but isn't active in your life now. With peace.

As to the Mom guilt, you do have compassion for her, but your compassion for your own hurt girl-self, who was so badly injured by her behavior, plus the monster's, has got to take priority. Perhaps if monster dies first, you'll be able to have some visits and closure with her. Even if it doesn't work out that way, you'll still find your way to that peace. You've punished yourself enough. And your Mom's age and declining health is sad for her as for every old person, but it comes to every single one of us and is a natural if poignant part of life.

You know you can't change that. But perhaps as you continue your deep work on self-healing and finding ways to carry on, you will somehow connect with the little seed of mothering in yourself that did not grow in her. It's not present in her body and her mind as she lives now, but mothering is still in you, and in the world around you. You can find it for yourself as so many have to do, and in doing that, I believe you will find peace about her. (She will find her own comforts as life winds down, because the seeds of that are in her, too. It's not on you to fix it for her, though in an ideal universe, of course you'd like to.)

Hugs
Hops

Hops, thank you for that very sensible advice, I am going to try that and see if I can reframe it :)  It does make sense to think of it that way, I will have to practise flipping it around and being grateful for what was good - and there have been lots of good things - and not berating myself about it not being enough any more.  It's funny how changes just don't feel smooth a lot of the time.  It would be so much easier if changing and growing felt nice :)  Lol

Yes, the mum thing, I know, I do get it on a practical/sensible level, I just feel that the bond that should be there kind of resonates even though it isn't, if that makes sense?  I'm aware that I'd never find closure through her; just from conversations she has with my sister it's clear there's been absolutely no change, her narrative is the same as ever and I can't see that ever changing, and maybe there would be no closure for me either way - maybe it's just not something we can close?   I don't know, I see old people around, living alone, only seeing the check out lady in the supermarket or the doctor from time to time and it breaks my heart.  I do what I can but individual people can only do so much.  It's a societal thing, so much focus on work and money means people aren't useful once they're out of employment and if they haven't got a good circle of people who love them they're kind of buggered from that point on.  I'm aware that my mum would be a lot nicer to me if I wasn't her daughter which is an odd turn of events.  But yes, I will carry on working on myself and my own healing and will content myself with talking to old ladies at the bus stop and offering to carry their shopping (and a funny story; I was in a shop yesterday when an elderly chap dropped his keys.  I said "oh let me get those for you" and bent down to pick them up and my back went and I couldn't get back up - he ended up having to help me :)  Note to self; I'm heading a bit towards that phase as well.  Osteo has sorted my back (I was on my way to see her) so all good now :) ).

Thanks Hopsie, I will concentrate on gratitude and release and let you know how it goes :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 25, 2019, 04:02:12 AM
and not berating myself about it not being enough any more

Same. Now I'm thinking about it the self berating part.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on July 25, 2019, 12:46:36 PM
Tupp:

Thank goodness the osteo helped with your jaw.  You're asking for help,  and getting it.  So important to do that, IME.  Did they say what's going on that your jaw is locking up?

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 25, 2019, 01:25:47 PM
and not berating myself about it not being enough any more

Same. Now I'm thinking about it the self berating part.

I know, we create more work for ourselves, I think?  I'm so used to not making any demands on anyone, ever, that something as simple as saying, yep, I want more than this person can give me feels wrong.  And of course it isn't, wanting friendships that run roughly fifty/fifty with people who understand the situation I'm in and who want to keep in regular contact isn't a big ask of anyone (in fact it sounds like minimum requirement in a friend!).  Just time to re-evaluate and shift gears, I think :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 25, 2019, 01:31:04 PM
Tupp:

Thank goodness the osteo helped with your jaw.  You're asking for help,  and getting it.  So important to do that, IME.  Did they say what's going on that your jaw is locking up?

Lighter

She's great, Lighter, really lovely lady and knows our previous osteopath from where we lived before :)  She surfs as well so has been giving us tips on where to try body boarding, she's so sweet.  She says it's stress and that we all have an area that's affected by stress and that will manifest in different ways depending on our individual circumstances.  She said neck and shoulders is really common and that all affects the jaw as well; partly it's postural (son holding my arm when we walk, lugging bags on one side and son on the other, computer time, slouching and so on) but mostly stress and tension.  I have to say that as the day's gone on I feel like I've swallowed a load of valium; so much has just melted away and I had a really nice nap this afternoon so it's definitely let a lot of stuff go.  I found a good yoga routine on YouTube that focuses on the jaw so I'm going to try to add that to my routine to keep it supple, plus she showed me a couple of simple things to do through the day to try to keep it a bit less tight.  The difference is amazing - any my headache has finally gone!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 25, 2019, 03:01:18 PM
That's awesome. Is it the lions pose thing that you do for your jaw where you stick your tongue out?

I feel inspired after reading your post to do something body positive like yoga.

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 26, 2019, 01:31:38 AM
Today I was texting a coworker friend and then the text turned into a phone call she talked to me for 30 mins about a single subject science fiction fantasy thing that was sort of teenager-esque. She is in her 30's. I listened but she didn't take a gasp. I asked her a few questions but after about 15 mins it felt like it was more detail than I could handle about something that wasn't interesting to me. I just listened but I thought about you Two while this was happening. I stay friends with her just because I feel like it's good to have any friends even if they are someone odd-minded as opposed to like-minded. But sometimes I wonder what friendships should be like. Is it enough to be human or do we have to have a lot in common. Also that she could ramble on for so long I don't think she cares if I'm even listening or not. If I wanted to end it all I would need to do is not put any effort in. I can talk about myself and sometimes she does have something to add. Still sometimes I wonder.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on July 26, 2019, 09:05:03 PM
Sometimes I wonder if it always requires or feels like more than 100% contribution. A friend stated we should do a picnic couple months ago and then said nothing more about it. Next week we are going to be in the same class, so I asked her the where when and hows. Was asking her how she wants to plan the food and she pretty much only said "well picnics are pretty casual".  Yes I KNOW that by definition they always are casual BUT they require more planning than going to a restaraunt where you show up and sit down and do nothing else. still we all have to figure out something to bring because it's going to be around dinner time. Anyhow it kinda sounds like she doesn't want to bring anything at all. Shrug. It was her idea. So I started thinking of bringing a lot of stuff but it was her idea!!!  There are other people coming so I will just coordinate with the others. But yeah I've been texting everybody to see if they are avail. trying to google where to have it because I don't live in that area. It's fine it's not a big deal and I like rallying the troops/harassing everybody into mutual understandings. BUT still part of the fun of a picnic is planning it and it's not a picnic without park food. It took a whole day of texting but finally 5/6 people are all going to show up at the same place at the same time. At least it's something. I wouldn't call any of them close friends.

Also when I was out today I overheard two women talking at Starbucks, they didn't know each other. One of them looked uninterested in what the other was saying. I think they met up just to meet new people, not sure if they met online or what. I should have just walked over there lol and joined them but nooooooo. But talk about proactive.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 27, 2019, 05:01:08 AM
G, I could have written both of those posts, this is exactly what I'm struggling with at the minute!  One of the friends I'm distancing myself from can talk for an hour without drawing breath, usually about someone else's drama.  I will willingly listen endlessly to someone who is in an impossible situation and just needs to vent - bereavement, diagnosis of something hideous, husband just announced he's been having an affair for ten years and he's leaving - I understand that there are times when listening is all you can do.  But, friends that talk only about something that interests them, for whatever reason - it's just tiring.  And interestingly, the friend that talks about herself all the time is the same one that suggested going swimming (which I hate) and who this week called wanting to meet up that day (three hours notice) and who then kept suggesting I fit her in when I said no.  I suppose it stands to reason if most of the conversations you have only involve them then they won't know much about the other person.  And yes, lots of my friendships stopped once I stopped making an effort.  There are many people who I didn't call for six months when my son first got ill, just because there was so much else going on I didn't even think about ringing people for a chat.  It was only after six months I started to notice that not one of those people had called me in that time - I hadn't rung, so nothing else ever happened.  So yes, perfectly possible to shed friends simply by not calling them (although also a good way to find out who your real mates are because they are the ones that phone - it's just a shock to the system if you find out it's no-one!  I was lucky; one kept ringing and she has kept in touch with me weekly for nearly twenty years now, I am so lucky to have her).

And yes, organising other people is like herding cats!  I've no idea how so many people manage with no idea what they're doing from one day to the next and constantly thinking on their feet and having to keep adapting each day - I find it exhausting.  Phoning, texting, Facebook, then chasing again because tickets need to be booked, then organising how to get there - have stopped doing it now!  Just too much hassle, especially when everyone says they want to come but then no-one comes back with a date or a time.  And group food events like a picnic do need a bit of organising re who does what because otherwise everyone turns up with the same stuff and a lot of it gets wasted.  And the meet with the other mums this week was a good example of that; we were meeting for a picnic and I thought (as did many others) that we were bringing our own individual food.  Several had been told it was a group food thing so had bought stuff for everyone and ended up taking loads of it home.  So yes, planning is required!  Lol

I'm curious about the Starbucks ladies as well now, G, I'd have liked to know what the circumstances were.  Lol, very proactive if they're meeting up unknown to see about becoming friends.  Or maybe a date?

I've not been doing Lion's Pose with this particular yoga sequence but I honestly feel like I've taken Valium after I do it, it's releasing so much from my jaw.  Have stuck the link below in case you want to have a look :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbItEmN16jw

xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on July 27, 2019, 08:24:21 AM
Thanks, Tupp.  My youngest dd has trouble with her jaw.  I'll share this with her: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 27, 2019, 09:30:09 AM
Thanks, Tupp.  My youngest dd has trouble with her jaw.  I'll share this with her: )

Lighter

I'm finding it really helpful, Lighter, so much so that I keep having to go and have a nap after I've done it, it seems to flood tension out of me.  I'm still focusing really hard on trying to get as destressed as possible over the summer break so that next year isn't the stressful nightmare that this year has been.  Feels odd to have to work at not being stressed, though, bit of an oxymoron!  But I'm sticking with it.  It's half two in the afternoon and I'm still not dressed - I've pottered about at home, sorted out food, done yoga, meditated, updated on here, caught up on emails, had a chat with a friend on the phone.  It feels wrong to me not to just rush rush rush but I'm forcing myself not to - I want not rushing to be my new default setting.  We're going to the beach tonight and I am actually going to make an effort to wear something nice.  I never bother, it always feels like too much hassle and I think there's no point to it but I am experimenting with changing my look to see if that makes anything else change :)  So an effort will be made :)  We'll see how it goes lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on July 27, 2019, 10:40:17 AM
I'm curious how making an effort with appearances works out this evening, Tupp.   

I can say this about that... when going through the airports I always make an effort.  People treat me different.  Even if I forget I've taken that time, people treat me better, in general.   I usually pick security lines manned by men, out of habit.   In the big city, women were often cruel in the workplace, school, and social situations.  That's really sad, but we're set up to compete, not support each other,  aren't we?   

I don't have to worry about that when I'm not making an effort with appearances.  There's a lovely feeling of being invisible when I throw on comfy clothing, hair in a bun, sunglasses, no makeup. 


have fun, and stay in observer mode: )  I hope you feel seen, and lovely in whatever you wear.


Lighter





Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 27, 2019, 04:25:10 PM
I'm curious how making an effort with appearances works out this evening, Tupp.   

I can say this about that... when going through the airports I always make an effort.  People treat me different.  Even if I forget I've taken that time, people treat me better, in general.   I usually pick security lines manned by men, out of habit.   In the big city, women were often cruel in the workplace, school, and social situations.  That's really sad, but we're set up to compete, not support each other,  aren't we?   

I don't have to worry about that when I'm not making an effort with appearances.  There's a lovely feeling of being invisible when I throw on comfy clothing, hair in a bun, sunglasses, no makeup. 


have fun, and stay in observer mode: )  I hope you feel seen, and lovely in whatever you wear.


Lighter

Lighter, it was very odd!  I just wore a dress and a bit of lip gloss (usually would wear shorts and T shirt and no make up) and people were friendlier!  I keep my head shaved so it did occur to me that perhaps if I'm in casual or blokey clothes I look a bit aggressive?  And maybe less so with a dress and a bit of make up on?  It was funny, I really hadn't expected it to affect anyone else, it was more just about me trying to shake myself up a bit but I'm going to try it again tomorrow and see what happens! xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on July 27, 2019, 05:45:24 PM
Woo HOO, Tupp!

After all these years we find out you shave your head?

You DEFINITELY do not follow the madding crowd.

More awe...and so glad you had a good time!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on July 27, 2019, 07:04:42 PM
Ok, Tupp.  That was an experiment. 

Now, see if feeling wonderful and happy gets people's attention too.  I found it was truly magnetic.

Glad you had a good time.  Observer mode is better.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on July 28, 2019, 02:53:40 PM
This sounds like a useful experiment Tupp! I hope you have some fun with it.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 30, 2019, 03:29:45 PM
Hops, it's not completely shaved at the moment - about an inch long on top and shaved at the back and sides.  But will probably be coming off again this week :)

I have carried on making an effort - I've only got one dress and one skirt so not that easy to be girlier every day lol, but son is at college tomorrow so I'm going to pop to the charity shops and see if I can pick up a few bits.  But it definitely does seem to make other people friendlier and chattier and I'm not sure if it's me giving off a different vibe or them seeing me differently.  I don't feel different but perhaps I'm giving off something else without realising it.

In other news - I finally got a bed :)  I had to get rid of mine when we moved because the room's so small it wouldn't fit in and I've been on a fold up bed since then.  But a new bed was delivered today, it's set up with fresh bedding and I got new pillows and duvet as well and I have to say I can't wait to get in it!  Will be interesting to see if I sleep any better now.

Today has been great.  Completely without stress or hassle, we've been home all day, I've pottered about getting on with jobs that needed doing, cleared my bedroom out and gave it a good clean before the new bed arrived and I've put the fold up bed up for sale online.  The whole place is starting to feel more organised and I can see better now what I can change and re-arrange to make it work better, plus I'm clearing out and rehoming things as necessary.  Everything feels easier at the moment and I'm hoping it will stay that way :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on July 31, 2019, 11:16:06 AM
Well guys, great news!  Today has been amazing :)

New bed is incredible - my alarm woke me at 7am this morning which is the latest I've slept since we moved here.  Sooooo comfortable (the cat thinks so, too).  My back is nowhere near as sore as usual and I was so comfy I would have gone back to sleep if I hadn't had to get up :)

Bought a dress and a couple of nice tops in the charity shop, very cheap, pretty and summery.  Even looked at heels and hats - didn't buy any but thought maybe a bit further down the line might go for hats to ring the changes as I don't have much hair and might even venture into wearing heels every now and again (not sure if I could walk in them now but might have a go).

The nice mum group - apart from being so nice and welcoming they are setting up formally as a charity and have ideas for various ways to help and support local families.  All very informal, low key and non-snobby.  Without meaning to sound unkind or ungrateful, I've found in the past that some of the people that run groups aren't always very nice to low income families or if there's a family with a relative in prison or something like that.  This group is very different, very down to earth and understand that life is tough and we deal with it as best we can.  Really like them.

They've asked me to be more involved and we had a team meeting today, at which I offered to be Secretary (they need three roles filled to satisfy the Charity Commission requirements).  I explained that I've never done it before but was happy to have a go; one of the guys who's helping ot set it up has worked for charities for years so knows how everything works so is going to talk me through the process and I can send stuff to him to check before it's sent out.  Very excited and it's so nice to be part of a group for a change, instead of ploughing through things on my own.  They've offered to send me on a Safeguarding course, as well as a First Aid one so I've said yes to both.  I'm trying to take opportunities as they come now.  I've been scared for years about sticking my head out anywhere in case my mum causes problems but I need to move forward so I've said yes.  I have explained to the lady running the group about my mum just in case the many false allegations in my past might cause a problem, or if my mum gets wind that I'm involved and starts phoning social services again, but the lady was fine with it, said various members have got various problems in their background and it's all good.  And it is all good :)

So a nice day, finally!  I don't feel as tired, stressed, run down or demoralised.  Son had a nice day at college and is now upstairs.  I'm going to get the dinner ready and then do some yoga as I slept too late to get any done before we left this morning!  Things are good :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2019, 03:03:05 PM
Well guys, great news!  Today has been amazing :) Whoo hoo!

New bed is incredible - my alarm woke me at 7am this morning which is the latest I've slept since we moved here.  Sooooo comfortable (the cat thinks so, too).  My back is nowhere near as sore as usual and I was so comfy I would have gone back to sleep if I hadn't had to get up :)
I'm so happy to read this, Tupp!  Nice bedding, a decent mattress, and kitty tucked in for comfort.  Sounds like bed time's improved a good deal.  That's wonderful: )   Good sleep is so important.
Bought a dress and a couple of nice tops in the charity shop, very cheap, pretty and summery.  Even looked at heels and hats - didn't buy any but thought maybe a bit further down the line might go for hats to ring the changes as I don't have much hair and might even venture into wearing heels every now and again (not sure if I could walk in them now but might have a go).At our charity shop I often find little kitten heel shoes.... often in new condition.  Having a nude pair, a black pair, a red pair, and a blue pair are options to consider.  Just t TINY heel.  I think our clothes absolutely influence the way we feel, sometimes more than others.  A pretty summer dress, on hot days, feels different than our same old run around clothes, IME, and I swear feeling better radiates off us like the sun... people can see and feel that too, IME.   

The nice mum group - apart from being so nice and welcoming they are setting up formally as a charity and have ideas for various ways to help and support local families.  All very informal, low key and non-snobby.  Without meaning to sound unkind or ungrateful, I've found in the past that some of the people that run groups aren't always very nice to low income families or if there's a family with a relative in prison or something like that.  This group is very different, very down to earth and understand that life is tough and we deal with it as best we can.  Really like them.  You might find some of your people, Tupp.  You never know when they'll come along.

They've asked me to be more involved and we had a team meeting today, at which I offered to be Secretary (they need three roles filled to satisfy the Charity Commission requirements).  I explained that I've never done it before but was happy to have a go; one of the guys who's helping ot set it up has worked for charities for years so knows how everything works so is going to talk me through the process and I can send stuff to him to check before it's sent out.  Very excited and it's so nice to be part of a group for a change, instead of ploughing through things on my own.  They've offered to send me on a Safeguarding course, as well as a First Aid one so I've said yes to both.  I'm trying to take opportunities as they come now.  I've been scared for years about sticking my head out anywhere in case my mum causes problems but I need to move forward so I've said yes. Absolutely in agreement here.  Time to come out, embrace the sun, and dance, Tupp. I have explained to the lady running the group about my mum just in case the many false allegations in my past might cause a problem, or if my mum gets wind that I'm involved and starts phoning social services again, but the lady was fine with it, said various members have got various problems in their background and it's all good.  And it is all good :)  You did what you could do, proactively.  Now it's time to put your mum away, and turn to what's in front of you now.

So a nice day, finally!  I don't feel as tired, stressed, run down or demoralised.  Son had a nice day at college and is now upstairs.  I'm going to get the dinner ready and then do some yoga as I slept too late to get any done before we left this morning!  Things are good :) xx  Wow, that's a terrific update, Tupp.  You're keeping self care in place, and I think sleeping in wasn't a mistake.  I think extra sleep was a good thing.  You're building more of what you want for tomorrow, seems to me.


Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on July 31, 2019, 04:33:18 PM
Awwww, (((((((((((Tupp))))))))).

I just feel joy for you all over.

I'm so GLAD.

Huge hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 01, 2019, 06:15:39 AM
Tupp,

I really, really enjoyed hearing about that group. That seems so much better (to me) than just a coffee and chat group. I feel energized with groups of people that are gathering for a particular purpose, so I'm very enthusiastic for you! Isn't it funny how when you decide you arent going to continue along trying to build relationships with people who are responsive, and then almost right away this door opens up? I wonder what that is, but I 've seen it before.

Sleep is non-negotiable for me. I can imagine you feel like a million bucks if you don't normally sleep til 7. Lack of sleep can undo my day faster than anything else. Coffee only helps so much.

CB

CB, I'm exactly the same, I can and will do chit chat in certain situations - at the bus stop, sitting in a cafe, waiting at the doctor's surgery - but to specifically carve time out of my day to sit for two hours listening to people talk about nothing that interests me is just not on my list of things to do!  I've been to many groups in the past where I've left feeling exhausted.  People need to talk and offload, I get that (and I am lucky that I have you guys to do that with) but other people (like me!) need to do more than listen to tales of woe.  I just find it tiring.  So yes, it's been a great find, they're very proactive and also very funny (I love funny women!  I think they're great).  One is a very natural story teller and she had the whole group in stiches yesterday with tales of her daughter's antics many years ago.  I come out of there feeling good and I love the fact that they're fighting for change and refusing to sit back and do nothing - I find other people's apathy really draining so it's great to be around that productive energy.   Really lucky to have found them.  And yes, sleeping in a proper bed!  Makes such a difference, my back is nowhere near as sore as usual and coffee does only take you so far :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 01, 2019, 07:59:08 AM
Well guys, great news!  Today has been amazing :) Whoo hoo!

New bed is incredible - my alarm woke me at 7am this morning which is the latest I've slept since we moved here.  Sooooo comfortable (the cat thinks so, too).  My back is nowhere near as sore as usual and I was so comfy I would have gone back to sleep if I hadn't had to get up :)
I'm so happy to read this, Tupp!  Nice bedding, a decent mattress, and kitty tucked in for comfort.  Sounds like bed time's improved a good deal.  That's wonderful: )   Good sleep is so important.
Bought a dress and a couple of nice tops in the charity shop, very cheap, pretty and summery.  Even looked at heels and hats - didn't buy any but thought maybe a bit further down the line might go for hats to ring the changes as I don't have much hair and might even venture into wearing heels every now and again (not sure if I could walk in them now but might have a go).At our charity shop I often find little kitten heel shoes.... often in new condition.  Having a nude pair, a black pair, a red pair, and a blue pair are options to consider.  Just t TINY heel.  I think our clothes absolutely influence the way we feel, sometimes more than others.  A pretty summer dress, on hot days, feels different than our same old run around clothes, IME, and I swear feeling better radiates off us like the sun... people can see and feel that too, IME.   

The nice mum group - apart from being so nice and welcoming they are setting up formally as a charity and have ideas for various ways to help and support local families.  All very informal, low key and non-snobby.  Without meaning to sound unkind or ungrateful, I've found in the past that some of the people that run groups aren't always very nice to low income families or if there's a family with a relative in prison or something like that.  This group is very different, very down to earth and understand that life is tough and we deal with it as best we can.  Really like them.  You might find some of your people, Tupp.  You never know when they'll come along.

They've asked me to be more involved and we had a team meeting today, at which I offered to be Secretary (they need three roles filled to satisfy the Charity Commission requirements).  I explained that I've never done it before but was happy to have a go; one of the guys who's helping ot set it up has worked for charities for years so knows how everything works so is going to talk me through the process and I can send stuff to him to check before it's sent out.  Very excited and it's so nice to be part of a group for a change, instead of ploughing through things on my own.  They've offered to send me on a Safeguarding course, as well as a First Aid one so I've said yes to both.  I'm trying to take opportunities as they come now.  I've been scared for years about sticking my head out anywhere in case my mum causes problems but I need to move forward so I've said yes. Absolutely in agreement here.  Time to come out, embrace the sun, and dance, Tupp. I have explained to the lady running the group about my mum just in case the many false allegations in my past might cause a problem, or if my mum gets wind that I'm involved and starts phoning social services again, but the lady was fine with it, said various members have got various problems in their background and it's all good.  And it is all good :)  You did what you could do, proactively.  Now it's time to put your mum away, and turn to what's in front of you now.

So a nice day, finally!  I don't feel as tired, stressed, run down or demoralised.  Son had a nice day at college and is now upstairs.  I'm going to get the dinner ready and then do some yoga as I slept too late to get any done before we left this morning!  Things are good :) xx  Wow, that's a terrific update, Tupp.  You're keeping self care in place, and I think sleeping in wasn't a mistake.  I think extra sleep was a good thing.  You're building more of what you want for tomorrow, seems to me.



Lighter, it was all good news but today I've had a big emotional crash and all the anxiety and fear has resurfaced.  I think it must be that you take a step forward and all the old fear reflexes kick back in.  I didn't sleep well, couldn't stop thinking about my mum, have been ruminating all day about unsupportive friends (you have amazing friends in your life, Tup!  Focus on them and not the crap ones!) and have generally been in a down place about it all.  I think the only thing I can do is keep on keeping on - keep focusing on moving forward, accept that other stuff will come up when that happens, work on it as it does and eventually it won't be there anymore and it won't keep causing problems?  I guess?

I have got acupuncture next week and I was reading up on emotions and Chinese Medicine - their theory is that different emotions get trapped in different organs so the therapist will work on releasing emotional blockages from different places depending on what they are.  It's interesting to read and I feel very comfortable with this guy so I will have an honest chat with him about the different emotions that I keep finding resurface and see if he can help move any of it along at all.

Another day, another dollar!  And all that :)  Lol

PS The charity shops here are great, absolutely awash with all sorts of weird and wonderful treasures.  Some have vintage sections (I got my son some great Superhero T shirts from the 1980s), some have fancy dress sections (which is really big around here for some reason), some even have bridal sections!  A thrifty bride could kit herself out without too much trouble.  I love having a rummage - will keep an eye out for some heels that are unlikely to cause a broken ankle :) lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 01, 2019, 08:01:41 AM
Awwww, (((((((((((Tupp))))))))).

I just feel joy for you all over.

I'm so GLAD.

Huge hugs,
Hops

Thanks, Hops!  It was nice to write a positive post for a change :)  I don't feel quite as positive today - insecurities and old fears resurfacing, I think.  But I will continue to work through it and move forward.  It feels like two steps forward and one back, instead of one forward and two back, so there is improvement :) Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 01, 2019, 01:41:39 PM
(((Tupp)))

Breath, and get curious. 

Feeling down is cause for curiosity.  Right?

No more judging. 

Be compassionate with yourself. 

What would you want me to do?

Do that.

It's going to be OK.

Even if it's not OK.

It's OK.

Lighter
Remember, breathe in 4 seconds, hold it 4 seconds, breathe out 4 seconds - repeat several times as needed

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on August 01, 2019, 02:31:09 PM
Definitely, always do the math!
2 steps forward + 1 step back = a step FORWARD

Considering how you've taken DOZENS of steps forward lately, don't ever despair over a couple back.

If somebody graphed you, Tupp, the wiggling line would be trending UP.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 02, 2019, 02:29:22 AM
(((Tupp)))

Breath, and get curious. 

Feeling down is cause for curiosity.  Right?

No more judging. 

Be compassionate with yourself. 

What would you want me to do?

Do that.

It's going to be OK.

Even if it's not OK.

It's OK.

Lighter
Remember, breathe in 4 seconds, hold it 4 seconds, breathe out 4 seconds - repeat several times as needed

Thanks, Lighter, things have eased off a bit today.  What I find difficult at the moment is that in the time it happens I'm like a rabbit frozen in headlights so all the self care stuff doesn't come into my mind.  I'm seeing the acupuncture guy next week so I'm going to ask him if there's a point he can work on to slow down that terror response, to give me time to work on the feelings as they come up.  It's like a shutter comes down - perhaps linked to disassociating in the past?  But it's like I can see what's going on but I'm not really part of it.  But today feels better and I can practise the breathing, do some yoga, work through my list (lists keep me going at times like this, I can work through things and feel like I've achieved something), perhaps go to the beach this evening and just sit and watch the waves for a while.  It's okay - we're doing okay :) xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on August 02, 2019, 02:33:42 AM
(((...Hugs...)))
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 02, 2019, 02:36:20 AM
Definitely, always do the math!
2 steps forward + 1 step back = a step FORWARD

Considering how you've taken DOZENS of steps forward lately, don't ever despair over a couple back.

If somebody graphed you, Tupp, the wiggling line would be trending UP.

hugs
Hops

There is definitely upward progress, Hops, do you know what, a graph would be a good idea, wouldn't it?  To stick on the wall and just plot each day where you think you are - an easy way to see quickly how much progress you've made so that the difficult bits are put into perspective?  I think you are on to something there!

I am aware that I've had a breakdown.  It's been a fairly quiet and calm one, and mostly internal - I don't think anyone else would have noticed day to day - but it feels quite complete now.  I did do something quite ridiculous and shaved my head to to the bone one evening last week.  I keep my hair very short anyway, shaved at the back and sides and a little longer on top (an inch or so).  But something came over me and I've taken it all off completely and it looks awful.  But for some reason it has shocked me out of the fog I've been in for the last few months and I can see that a very slow, calm breakdown has taken place and I think that was the pinnacle of it.  I almost felt like I wanted to destroy myself completely?  But, it does feel quite cathartic now (although I do feel very daft and think I will tell people I had a hair dyeing incident and so had to chop it all off.  And will be wearing a hat for a couple of months until it has at least grown back a little bit).  But it has made me see things a little clearly and it's been interesting to me to know there are friends I would tell - because I think they'd be sensitive to it and understand - and friends I wouldn't mention it to because they'd just think I was nuts and gossip about me.  So there's been a slight revelatory notion to it.  And I am so grateful I have all of you, even more than ever right now.  Thank you xx xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 02, 2019, 10:41:53 AM
(((...Hugs...)))

Thank you, G, it is much appreciated :) xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on August 02, 2019, 12:43:01 PM
I'm so sorry, (((((Tupp)))))).

My D did the same during her particular bipolar darkness at one point.

I think it' was her way of saying to the world, I have pain and I am overwhelmed and I am vulnerable. SEE ME.

Reminds me of the absolutely brilliant standup comedienne, Hannah Gadsby.
I admire her almost more than anyone I can think of in show biz.

She "broke" comedy, blasted through the third wall, and it was very much like watching a woman shave her head, in this culture.

Bravo you. I'm sorry there's regret (thank heaven hair grows). But I totally get the appeal. It occured to me about a year ago, briefly. When I began losing my hair, I asked myself...would I be happier if I just got rid of all of it?

Only reason I didn't was the necessity for maintenance. Waaay too lazy.

I know you are gorgeous, hair or no hair.

Please keep posting, dear Tupp.

love to you,
Hops

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2019, 04:27:00 PM
Tupp:

There are degrees to breaking down, and understanding what happened later on, IME.

Having a way to chart our days,
maybe gage physical pain from 1-10
dread 1-10
fear 1-10
happiness 1-10
 Something we can get in a glance.

A place for notes.... "hired sketchy tree guys bc they knocked on the door. and looking up sent me into panic mode.....  right before going out of the country, leaving a huge mess in the yard I still haven't dealt with...." that kind of thing.   I honestly feel this is such an out of character move for me... it's like shaving my head.  It's like trees exploded all over the moss.  There's holes that are 2 feet deep, and moss dragged into the leaves, and huge divets, and ruts.... oh my.  I have to get up all the saw dust.  I'm honestly shocked at that decision.  I HAVE TREES I NEED TO MOVE BY SECTIONS, and no idea where I'll move them. 

You know what.... like your hair, I know the situation will resolve, so no use worrying about it.  We do what we can, then let go of the outcome.

I've said that.  Given that advice.  Taken that advice, but this is the first time I've understood that advice, and know why it's a better strategy than the anxiety/racing mind syndrome of anticipating problems, which is really hard to live with, IME.  It's also my main coping strategy, if I'm being honest.  Having one week of consistently NOT doing that has changed how I see my life, and world.

It's a longer respite, and it helps things stick, IME.

Having little moments, here and there, was all I could manage before, and it likely kept me from going over many edges, or at least brought me back, which is a lot when we're stuggling, IME.

I want something better.

I want to be OK most of the time, and not suffer more than once over the things I have on my plate.

If I have a problem, I look at my resources, healthy boundaries, logical consequences, list the things I have to do in order to get the best possible outcome, DO what I can (with compassion, and the calm tapping and breathing can help bring) then release the outcome, and KNOW there's nothing else I could do to bring about a better outcome. 

Wishing and worrying doesn't change anything, so I'm ready to let them go in the name of more peace in my life.

Drat, this is your thread.  I didn't mean to post so long on your thread.  Sorry, (((Tupp)))

::straightening Tupp's hat::

We're going to be OK: )

Lighter

 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 03, 2019, 04:27:03 AM
I'm so sorry, (((((Tupp)))))).

My D did the same during her particular bipolar darkness at one point.

I think it' was her way of saying to the world, I have pain and I am overwhelmed and I am vulnerable. SEE ME.

Reminds me of the absolutely brilliant standup comedienne, Hannah Gadsby.
I admire her almost more than anyone I can think of in show biz.

She "broke" comedy, blasted through the third wall, and it was very much like watching a woman shave her head, in this culture.

Bravo you. I'm sorry there's regret (thank heaven hair grows). But I totally get the appeal. It occured to me about a year ago, briefly. When I began losing my hair, I asked myself...would I be happier if I just got rid of all of it?

Only reason I didn't was the necessity for maintenance. Waaay too lazy.

I know you are gorgeous, hair or no hair.

Please keep posting, dear Tupp.

love to you,
Hops

Thanks, Hops.  I'm sorry that you've had this with your D as well.  I have been thinking this morning (or for the last few days, more specifically, but it felt clearer this morning), that I think I feel at the moment that I've not got any personal happiness in my life - and I feel like I haven't got any more ways to try to get it now?  I'm thinking about what it means for me.  I do love to feel wanted - not in a needy way, but when someone phones because they just want to talk to you.  Not about themselves, but you, as a person.  When they want to know what you think and feel for no reason other than they like that and they have that sort of connection with you.  For me that's different to company - I can get company all day, every day, but I find it tiring and I don't always enjoy it.  But I do love deep connections and long, rambling conversations and I love those chats you can have with someone you're really close to because they 'get' what you're saying without you needing to explain it.  I love those reminiscing sort of chats where you say, "do you remember that time we went to .................." and you're both laughing without saying anything else because you know the incident and what happened and it's just that shared memory, without anyone needing to explain it.  I really miss that.

Work is important to me, or paid work at least.  I'm not materialistic but the constant financial pressure is exhausting.  There are flats available to rent near where we are now, bigger than our current house and cheaper, but they don't allow tenants on housing benefit.  That frustrates me - I pay the rent here even though it's more but I'm not judged on my reality - I'm judged by the source of my income.  That makes me unhappy.

I've felt for years that I needed to prove everyone wrong and that I would eventually end up with an amazing life and I could shout, "Ha ha!  Look at me now!  Fuckface!".  Lol.  And yes, I know it could still happen but I'm out of ideas for ways to try and make life happier now.  I feel it's more about finding ways to cope with it and I find that quite depressing.

I can sort a care plan out for son, get him enrolled in different things, get carers in place - but none of that will change other people and I think that's my big sticking point - meeting people who are my 'thing', getting to know them, building the friendship, testing it with a trying time (and it passing the test) - that's a lot of work and I feel like I fall at the first hurdle with a lot of people.

So yes, I kind of think the head shaving thing may have been a real, "okay, there's nothing else I can do now.  Where do I go from here?"  sort of a moment (as well as a kind of temporary insanity - it was like watching someone else do it.  Very odd).

But - I have you guys.  I have two very close, real life friends, several good acquaintances and I am meeting potential new friends.  I can focus on getting my home as comfortable as possible, getting my finances back in order, sorting out some paid work that son can be involved in in some way.  I have things I can focus on so I just need to keep moving forward, resting when needed, reminding myself that I don't need to solve all the problems of the world every day.  And I have a nice scarf to wear on my head now and it will only take a couple of months to grow back.  I might even grow it long again!  I've got plenty of hot water for a nice bath and I'm going to carry on with trying to make a bit of an effort with my appearance.  Son and I are going to walk into town later (I can take his wheelchair in case he gets tired as it's a flat pedestrian path all the way into town so it's easy to push).  And my friend is coming down for her holiday next week so I can spend lots of time with her and her lovely family and I know that will make me feel a lot better.

Thank you to all of you for caring so much, it really does mean a lot to me xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 03, 2019, 04:34:33 AM
Tupp:

There are degrees to breaking down, and understanding what happened later on, IME.

Having a way to chart our days,
maybe gage physical pain from 1-10
dread 1-10
fear 1-10
happiness 1-10
 Something we can get in a glance.

A place for notes.... "hired sketchy tree guys bc they knocked on the door. and looking up sent me into panic mode.....  right before going out of the country, leaving a huge mess in the yard I still haven't dealt with...." that kind of thing.   I honestly feel this is such an out of character move for me... it's like shaving my head.  It's like trees exploded all over the moss.  There's holes that are 2 feet deep, and moss dragged into the leaves, and huge divets, and ruts.... oh my.  I have to get up all the saw dust.  I'm honestly shocked at that decision.  I HAVE TREES I NEED TO MOVE BY SECTIONS, and no idea where I'll move them. 

You know what.... like your hair, I know the situation will resolve, so no use worrying about it.  We do what we can, then let go of the outcome.

I've said that.  Given that advice.  Taken that advice, but this is the first time I've understood that advice, and know why it's a better strategy than the anxiety/racing mind syndrome of anticipating problems, which is really hard to live with, IME.  It's also my main coping strategy, if I'm being honest.  Having one week of consistently NOT doing that has changed how I see my life, and world.

It's a longer respite, and it helps things stick, IME.

Having little moments, here and there, was all I could manage before, and it likely kept me from going over many edges, or at least brought me back, which is a lot when we're stuggling, IME.

I want something better.

I want to be OK most of the time, and not suffer more than once over the things I have on my plate.

If I have a problem, I look at my resources, healthy boundaries, logical consequences, list the things I have to do in order to get the best possible outcome, DO what I can (with compassion, and the calm tapping and breathing can help bring) then release the outcome, and KNOW there's nothing else I could do to bring about a better outcome. 

Wishing and worrying doesn't change anything, so I'm ready to let them go in the name of more peace in my life.

Drat, this is your thread.  I didn't mean to post so long on your thread.  Sorry, (((Tupp)))

::straightening Tupp's hat::

We're going to be OK: )

Lighter

 

Nothing to apologise for, Lighter, it's a very apt post :)  And your tree situation sounds like a nightmare.  Is this at your regular house or at the beach house?  You have so much going on at both places, it's a real nightmare to deal with.  And I think it's a good example of stress making us make bad decisions.  Panic makes us do odd things, and I think it's odd how panic doesn't always feel like panic?  Decisions can seem perfectly rational at the time but once we calm down they're very out of character.  I remember when my son was small and we had nowhere to live.  I couldn't raise the money for a deposit on even a small flat so we ended up living in one room in a shared house for seven months until I'd saved enough to move somewhere bigger.  It was only months later that I realised that I could have asked ten friends to lend me £100.  I knew ten people that would have done that, and it would have been enough for us to get a flat.  I could have paid them back reasonably quickly and saved myself a lot of hassle and unpleasantness.  But in my stress and panic I just didn't think of it, even though it was an obvious solution.  So I think it can affect our brain waves and our decision making processes and I hope you get the mess sorted out soon!  I hope it isn't too bad to get sorted again xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 03, 2019, 04:42:45 AM
Tupp,

Two of my kids shaved their heads when they had an emotional crisis--something internal, nothing external at least in the immediate sense. One was a son, and one was a daughter. Interestingly, both changed their first names as well. I've never completely understood why shaving their heads seemed to be what they needed to do, but it didnt bother me at all (I think the name change did more--names are such gifts from a mother to a child IMO). I had more of a sense that they, like you, felt a little bewildered themselves about why they did it.

Both grew out and were none the worst--but I do wonder now that you have described your own situation, what catharsis must take place to rid yourself so completely of something so personal.  I suspect its a good thing. I hope if you slowly get insight into what it has done for you that you will share it here. I'm glad you have a safe place to talk about it and not feel "all eyes on you"!

CB

CB, It's interesting to me how many other people have done the same thing!  Getting a new haircut is very common when a relationship ends; maybe shaving our heads is more about our relationships with ourselves?  The name change thing is interesting as well; I did look very seriously in to changing my name completely (first and last name) although for me that was more to do with my mum not being able to find me again because of the harassment.  I eventually decided against it because my surname's all I've got left of my dad and I do like my name!  But I know someone else who changed her first name and used her middle name instead because she preferred it more.  I do remember a funny story about someone I used to know who had no name for the first month of her life because her mum and dad couldn't agree on one.  Eventually they tossed a coin - dad won.  So his choice was first name, mum's second.  And when she got older she didn't like any of them and picked a new one for herself.  It's an odd situation to find yourself in, I think.  I wouldn't like it if my son wanted to change his name - like you say, you put a lot of thought in to it and it's what you choose for them.  I'd like to think he'll carry on liking it.

There is some sort of catharsis, I think.  I do feel like it's snapped me out of the fog I've been in for quite a while now.  I suppose it's like tangible proof that things aren't alright?  And you can see it, very easily, all the time.  So it's a constant reminder.  But I do feel calmer now (and embarrassed!).  I'm just so very tired of having to keep going, keep keeping on, and of feeling let down by friends who, when I can't go on any longer, just go off to do something more interesting!  I do need to focus the good people I do have in my life rather than the ones who haven't been great.  But it does feel like you're being kicked when you're down.  Anyway - I have listed all the positives on my reply to Hops so I won't repeat it all and bore everybody.  But I do appreciate you all very much xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 03, 2019, 05:46:01 AM
And in the spirit of positivity I have emailed the local Forest School; they run weekly well being sessions for carers and people with mental health difficulties and they also do sessions for adults with learning disabilities so that might be suitable for son next year.  I can check it out while I'm there and I think the wellbeing sessions would help me so I've asked if I can go along :)  I've also put a note in my diary to go to the next couple of meetings with the local eco group and I've got my weekly meet ups with the nice mums.  I think later on today I'll sit down and write myself some self help checklists for different situations - feeling overwhelmed, feeling anxious, panic, fear, exhaustion.  I have got things that help me in all of those situations but I find when I'm in it everything goes out of my mind and I can't think straight.  So perhaps if I write myself some lists and stick them on the wall in my room when something happens I can work through my list (me and lists!  Where would I be without my lists!) and that might get me out of it again quicker.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 04, 2019, 03:11:32 AM
Tupp,
I didn't question my kids when they shaved their heads so you are giving me some insight into their possible thought processes. The bewilderment you describe is what I noticed, but I left it alone. My kids have been remarkably non-rebellious in general and I thought it was a small thing to shave one's head!

I identify the sense of being cut adrift that you expressed. I have felt it acutely since I moved back to the city almost 5 years ago. My kids also have required care far into adulthood, and there was just this sense that the day to day pressure was never-ending.  I have moved too often in the last 12 years to sustain many (any) friendships--all of my energy was working, keeping my family above water and,until a few years ago,  my relationship with M. He was a great encouragement in all that, until he wasn't. That relationship breaking up was more than the loss of a romance, I think, but also a friendship.

So, like you, I find that I dont see a clear path forward. I have been rather desperate in some of the darker days, but I have begun to make peace with it just out of exhaustion, probably!  I feel as though I have expended so much energy just making life work, I can't imagine building a new friendship. It would be wonderful to have that "remember when" that you talk about, without there being pain attached to it. But failing that, I am okay with peace too--rather solitary peace as it is.

Do you think that a small part time job would help any for you? Sometimes I think that friendships are made these days only with work mates. My work mates are all much younger than I am, so that's not going to happen in my case. I dont know your situation whether that's even a possibility for you. I thought I would retire as soon as I could possibly, and now I find that I am worried that I would not have even the social outlets I have now, if I did. So, for me, employment has been a bit of a stabilizer.

I see myself in so much of what you have expressed here. I wish I could encourage you more, but perhaps we will muddle through together.

CB

Oh CB, so much of what you wrote resonated with me!  The day to day pressures are huge, although largely invisible, which I think is what causes my frustration with other people not 'getting' it.  With us, a lot of the care is around avoiding doing things that are stressful or tiring - which for my son is pretty much anything that involves leaving his room.  So the planning to involved in getting (a) the day to day necessities done and then (b) trying to keep him engaged in a range of interests, active, living healthily and so on, is enormous and I can't do spontaneous or spur of the moment.  Similarly I'm constantly exhausted now so I'm at a stage where, once what needs to be done is done, I really need to just sit and rest - which other people don't seem to be able to understand.  So we get invited to things that we can't go to (and it is nice to be invited, even if we can't go) but I find very few people are willing to make the effort to talk on the phone regularly or come over.  So most weeks I see my nice mums at the group for an hour or so and that's it for the week.  I've one friend who always catches up by phone at the weekends so it probably totals about two hours of conversation a week, leaving me alone for the other 166 and I do find it's just too much.  I think I've got to the point now where isolated and alone is so normal for me that being around other people is actually quite stressful.  I find it hard to relate to other people now - their lives of meeting up with family, planing evenings out, going on holiday, attending courses, getting promotions, watching their kids go through college, Uni and then into the big wide world is alien to me and I find it as difficult to relate to them as they do to me.  I find that if I do explain how I feel to someone or explain the situation to them that I generally get suggestions as to what I can do about the problem - other people don't seem to think it's down to them to pick the phone up occasionally or come over one evening.  For me other people making an effort is what would make the difference - and of course I can't make anyone do that.  But - I have got you guys, and I have got a couple of amazing friends so that's what I'm trying to focus on now :)

Part time work isn't an option at the minute because of son's care needs and the difficulties of getting him looked after but once all the education battles are sorted out and finalised I do want to look into opening a community shop.  I don't know if you have them in the States but they're starting to pop up here.  They're not for profit co-operatives, usually selling healthy, environmentally friendly products, with any profits made being spent on courses and workshops for local people to attend.  I'd like to see if I can set something like that up as son would be able to come with me if care was a problem, and I'd like to see if I can set up a community room alongside it that runs quiet, sedentary classes and workshops for anyone who struggles to cope with the constant noise and rushing about that society seems to be now.  I find that everything set up for adults with learning disabilities is either very active and/or very noisy - neither of which son can cope with for long, which is why we have so many problems.  So I'd like to set up quieter pursuits - photography, computer training, short film making, book club, poetry workshop, Scrabble competition, that sort of thing - aimed to cater for people with learning disabilities but open to anyone else who finds they need a bit of support and understanding.  I'd really love to just have a quiet space that people can drop in to, just to sit and read, play a game of cards, have a quiet chat or just stare into space - no phones, no background music, no computer games or coffee machines hissing and whirring - just nice and quiet :)

That's my aim once I get son's personal stuff sorted.  I have always felt that the support we need just isn't there so I need to find a way to provide it for him, I think, but without it being just on my shoulders.  So if I can set up some sort of shop with a few courses and workshops running on the side I think that will be a good step in the right direction.

I think muddling through is the way forward, CB!  I do think that, as you say, you put so much energy into just getting through the day that you really do need other people to make a bit more of an effort to reach out, but it doesn't seem to happen often.  I don't know what the answer is.  I think our society is so focused on making money and then spending that money in 'fun' ways that it doesn't leave a lot of time or energy for people.  Which I think is sad.  We can only muddle through.  I hope that some companionship, at least, comes out of your work relationships.  That's why this board is so amazing, it gives us a chance to connect in a way that a lot of us can't with the outside world :) xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 04, 2019, 05:01:42 AM
It occurred to me after writing all of that that I suppose we're all just looking for what we want.  Friends who are looking for people to go out with and do things with seek that, those of us who have to stay in and want people to visit seek that.  I guess it's about making deep enough connections with people that they're willing to put the time in - and does that mostly come from romantic relationships?  I guess single women will want to be out more looking to meet someone special and coupled up women will be spending their time with their love.  So I guess being single and having to stay at home isn't a great combination.  But I have good connections with you guys, I'm trying very hard to focus on my friends who do stay in touch and I enjoy the mum group.  Hopefully I can join this forest wellbeing group and at least learn some useful skills and be outdoors more, and I'm going to make the effort to get along to the eco group as often as I can.  So perhaps social get togethers that at the very least aren't draining and perhaps more will come from that.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 04, 2019, 11:59:42 AM
The tree situation isn't a real nightmare, Tupp. It's a decision I made, and I'll deal with it.  Same as your hair.  It'll grow back, and you'll have impressions about the decision, your hair as it grows, and how you keep it going forward.  Not good or bad, just information. 

I know I learned a lot about myself.  I think about it as I move through the clean up, and try to hold zero judgment around it. 

I did it bc looking UP, at that moment with a tree guy pointing out dangerous branches/trees, made me feel unsafe.  Big dead branches, over my children's heads as they walk in the yard, and sleep in their bedrooms. 

I'd just decided to go to Toronto for a funeral after hearing something about the final moments of the beloved person's life dealing with cancer, and that was a huge stress for me. 

 I see why I did it.  I understand I KNEW better as I moved through the decision making process, but went ahead anyway.  Very clearly my decision making process was hijacked, and that's information I'll benefit from going forward.   

We'll be OK, Tupp. 



Lighter

 

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 05, 2019, 02:16:03 AM
The tree situation isn't a real nightmare, Tupp. It's a decision I made, and I'll deal with it.  Same as your hair.  It'll grow back, and you'll have impressions about the decision, your hair as it grows, and how you keep it going forward.  Not good or bad, just information. 

I know I learned a lot about myself.  I think about it as I move through the clean up, and try to hold zero judgment around it. 

I did it bc looking UP, at that moment with a tree guy pointing out dangerous branches/trees, made me feel unsafe.  Big dead branches, over my children's heads as they walk in the yard, and sleep in their bedrooms. 

I'd just decided to go to Toronto for a funeral after hearing something about the final moments of the beloved person's life dealing with cancer, and that was a huge stress for me. 

 I see why I did it.  I understand I KNEW better as I moved through the decision making process, but went ahead anyway.  Very clearly my decision making process was hijacked, and that's information I'll benefit from going forward.   

We'll be OK, Tupp. 



Lighter

Sorry that you've lost someone close, Lighter, yes, that sort of news can make us do and say all sorts of things that we don't want to do or say.  My hair is already looking less hideous - I'll be wearing the scarf for a while (I quite like it, actually) but it's already not as bad as it was a week ago (and people keep holding doors open for me; I think they might think I'm having chemo :) ).

I think I was feeling very overwhelmed with all the paperwork, very worn down and invisible and I wonder if people not ringing links in to my feelings of invisibility as well.  I do feel it very acutely and struggle with it (and those co-dependency issues crop up again; when I used to do things for lots of people my phone never stopped ringing.  When I stopped, so did the calls.  That was hard).

I'd also been feeling very torn about the friends who haven't kept in touch much since we moved (the ones we now live near to).  I've been so hurt by that, and so utterly surprised as well.  I just didn't see that coming.  But I also struggle with feeling guilty for being 'demanding', ruminating on whether or not I'm being reasonable, wondering what it is about me that makes people feel so reluctant to ring for a chat every now and again, why do my own family not want me, why haven't I had a boyfriend for so long, and so on.  I think that's played in to it all as well.

I feel less like that now.  A couple of them have got in touch over the weekend; it's my birthday this week and they've contacted about meeting up and I realised a big part of it is, I just don't want to.  Regardless of all the other things that have gone on, I just find spending time with them too tiring right now and I don't feel up to doing it.  So I'm trying just to go with how I feel and not think too much about anything else.  I've a friend down for holidays this week so I'm seeing her on the day, which is a handy excuse for not seeing anyone else.  Life can be complicated at times :) Lol.  I hope you get your trees sorted soon xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on August 05, 2019, 01:28:26 PM
Tupp, hon, I know you're not into religion.
So maybe there's some secular program that might be comparable.

But I thought I'd describe anyway something I find important about the church community I'm in. I'm possibly going to be what they call a "pastoral visitor" -- a small team that goes through a little training in empathic listening, and volunteers for regular visits to various members who are isolated or having a hard time. Not out of pity. Not out of superiority. Not out of anything except the certain knowledge that isolation and loneliness are killers of hope and possibility and that everyone deserves to know they're not alone. Some people are just made for it, and take serious satisfaction in hearing others. It goes both ways, the benefit.

Sometimes, miraculously, people will actually reach out for it without others having to guess. And if there's any way you can do that with some sort of similar program, while trusting that a visit from a person drawn to kindness and who has a spiritual value of compassion and sees the need for caring listening as common emotional sense, nothing unusual whatsoever....would improve your life enormously.

I can't imagine how meaningful and healing it could be for you to pour your heart out in DETAIL, while being listened to WITH CONCENTRATION (which most of our friends can't provide). And regularly. So that kind of person would be incorporated into your life as, I dunno, an auntie. A village elder. Somebody who doesn't try to fix it (you're doing a damn good job of navigating all that), but genuinely cares about HEARING it.

Doing this in 3-D as well as here, I believe, could make the essential difference between what's difficult and what causes despair.

I think of religious organizations (including Buddhist) as one place to find this. And just describing your isolation and yearning to be "checked on" by someone who cares, as honestly as you have here, is all it would take. A little courage to be vulnerable with a pastor or Buddhist teacher, but allowing for the possibility of that good thing happening.

love to you,
Hops

PS When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron...huge huge help when I felt I was nearly dying from stress in isolation. She's probably one reason Buddhist community crossed my mind. That plus your bald head! :)

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 06, 2019, 07:12:34 PM
Happy Birthday this week, Tupp.  I hope you have a lovely celebration with your friend.  Something you really enjoy doing.

I wanted to share book recommendations from my T for overcoming codependency.

The first is Conquering Shame and Codependency by Darlene Lancer.

The second is Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody, and the third is called Breaking Free, a Recovery Workbook by Pia Mellody that goes along with Facing Codependence. 

I'm ordering them tonight.... I've been procrastinating. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on August 07, 2019, 02:19:09 AM
HAPPY NOT GETTING OLDER DAY
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 07, 2019, 02:59:59 PM
Currently reading HAPPINESS by Thich Nhat Hanh.  My T lent it to me, and I just knew she'd put a book in my hands today.  So useful. 

I ordered the 3 I listed PLUS the book PEACE IS EVERY STEP  by Thich Nhat Hanh.

It's time to practice consistently, and have tools to get me back on track when I struggle.

So many moving pieces, and learning how to put them down, so I can focus on being here, now, is the trick to having control over flipping the ON OFF switch for being present.... being in the zone... etc. 

Call it what I have, it's learning to get myself back in the moment, and re set old pathways so THIS is my default.

20 - 60 days of practice. 

::BIG BREATH::.

I might journal about this. 

I might write about it on the board. 

Will see.

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on August 08, 2019, 03:54:30 PM
Tupp, I want to apologize for mumbling on about church settings again...it's not appropriate. It's not RELIGION I imagine for you (in any way), it's community and comfort. That's it.

And you're already taking all kinds of steps, from forest groups to a dream of a future gathering place...that are your OWN ideas about community and comfort.

I'm just busting myself about my own urges to fix. I honestly am so grateful for your openness and sharing...you are an inspirational person for me. You speak more truth more often than I ever could. You have a shattering honesty about everything.

Because of my own "Mama Tiger" fantasies, every now and then when I look full-face at your lonely struggle, I feel frantic to fix it. That's not my place, and frantic ain't healthy.

How much? Thinking about your situation, I actually Googled support groups in UK, kinds of things, a couple times. (Can't do it of course without a postal code.) The other day I emailed the contact for a UK humanist organization that offers humanist pastoral care...but only in institutional settings. I asked him if it ever is available in the community, as well. I just wanted to PM you some help, to show you that you could find caring visitors who would listen with acceptance and compassion and break a little light channel through your painful isolation.

But I don't really think it's healthy for me to feel frantic to support anyone. I need to be loving, present, and ready to offer what I can, in this 2-D context.

I promise I'll continue to do that. Just wanted to 'fess up to why I nattered on (again) about church! It's just because it gave me an extended family (trustworthy despite ups and downs) and I ....err... urgently, now that I've renounced franticlly .... wanted you to have that too.

I found just as much, and just as supportive, comfort through a totally secular women's support group here years ago. Alas, feminism in that old-school circle-meeting sense has faded or transmogrified lately into just #MeToo and identity politics. And online. Sigh. When will people rediscover how much it matters to sit in reality with other humans? What I'd found so helpful was just that women could provide amazing strength to each other, regardless of background. It wasn't political at all, and it worked.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 10, 2019, 02:14:12 PM
Tupp, I want to apologize for mumbling on about church settings again...it's not appropriate. It's not RELIGION I imagine for you (in any way), it's community and comfort. That's it.

And you're already taking all kinds of steps, from forest groups to a dream of a future gathering place...that are your OWN ideas about community and comfort.

I'm just busting myself about my own urges to fix. I honestly am so grateful for your openness and sharing...you are an inspirational person for me. You speak more truth more often than I ever could. You have a shattering honesty about everything.

Because of my own "Mama Tiger" fantasies, every now and then when I look full-face at your lonely struggle, I feel frantic to fix it. That's not my place, and frantic ain't healthy.

How much? Thinking about your situation, I actually Googled support groups in UK, kinds of things, a couple times. (Can't do it of course without a postal code.) The other day I emailed the contact for a UK humanist organization that offers humanist pastoral care...but only in institutional settings. I asked him if it ever is available in the community, as well. I just wanted to PM you some help, to show you that you could find caring visitors who would listen with acceptance and compassion and break a little light channel through your painful isolation.

But I don't really think it's healthy for me to feel frantic to support anyone. I need to be loving, present, and ready to offer what I can, in this 2-D context.

I promise I'll continue to do that. Just wanted to 'fess up to why I nattered on (again) about church! It's just because it gave me an extended family (trustworthy despite ups and downs) and I ....err... urgently, now that I've renounced franticlly .... wanted you to have that too.

I found just as much, and just as supportive, comfort through a totally secular women's support group here years ago. Alas, feminism in that old-school circle-meeting sense has faded or transmogrified lately into just #MeToo and identity politics. And online. Sigh. When will people rediscover how much it matters to sit in reality with other humans? What I'd found so helpful was just that women could provide amazing strength to each other, regardless of background. It wasn't political at all, and it worked.

Hugs
Hops

Hopsie, there's nothing for you to apologise for, it's nice that you care enough to go to all that trouble or even think about it and I really appreciate it (and it's a far cry from my 3D 'friends' who don't even bother to text every now and again :) lol).  I appreciate the thoughts and the sentiment and I do understand where you are coming from - but I feel like I've turned a corner this last few days and something has just shifted.

I do have a lot of support - it just doesn't match in my head what I think I ought to have TO SATISFY OTHER PEOPLE'S STANDARDS :)  I've been reading a lot more recently about autistic adults, who are talking about what would have helped them as kids - and their biggest thing is just having people accept them as they are and not try to change them to fit into something that everyone else considers 'normal'.  It's very interesting to read - heart warming because they're reassuring me that I've done right by son by following his lead rather than forcing him to fit in - and interesting to me because I've always felt pressured to be someone I'm not and, as you know, whether I may be autistic myself has crossed my mind recently.  So there's been a lot swirling about in my head over the last few days and I realised my frustration comes from trying really hard to have this wide circle of 3D friends around me so that I can prove I'm popular/likeable/acceptable or whatever.  And I've not been seeing what I've actually got which is better than that.  I've got you guys on here, a stable of strong, reasoned, emotionally astute, compassionate people who've supported me through goodness only knows how many dark patches and cheered me on through good times as well.  Lovely Dr G, who provides all of this for us to rattle on endlessly in complete confidence.  A couple of amazing 3D, real life friends who are real rocks and I'm very lucky to have them.  A couple of other good friends who I enjoy talking to and catching up with.  Several acquaintances who are nice to pass a bit of time with every now and again.  Various nice people we've met down here since we've moved, several of whom are helping me with my health problems.  The college staff are nice - college hasn't worked out for us but the staff are nice and son enjoys going.  The kids on our street are nice, very sweet with son, very friendly.  The cinema staff are lovely (we're in there a lot!) and there are lots of activities for adults with learning disabilities here so I do think this time next year our situation will have changed.  I have been focusing a lot on how I think everything should be and it's closed my eyes to what I've already got.  And that shifted this week so I just don't feel so cut off and alone now.

I do still find it hard when friends aren't what I thought they were but I think I said previously that, if I'm honest, I probably wouldn't become friends with some of the people I've known down here for years if I met them now.  I've changed a lot, my interests have changed and there are a few people who, if I met them now, I don't think I'd pursue the friendship with.  As you said, Hops, let them go with love and thanks for the good times and catch up every now and again if appropriate.  It's okay, isn't it?

So nothing for you to say sorry for - it's very sweet of you to go to all that trouble and I appreciate it very much xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 10, 2019, 02:15:46 PM
HAPPY NOT GETTING OLDER DAY

Lol, thanks, G - it was a nice day!  Fish and chip lunch with some friends in their caravan, some cups of tea whilst watching it rain - we're British!  This is what we do!  Lol.  And then home for some down time on the sofa.  Not getting older day was nice :) Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 10, 2019, 02:20:07 PM
Currently reading HAPPINESS by Thich Nhat Hanh.  My T lent it to me, and I just knew she'd put a book in my hands today.  So useful. 

I ordered the 3 I listed PLUS the book PEACE IS EVERY STEP  by Thich Nhat Hanh.

It's time to practice consistently, and have tools to get me back on track when I struggle.

So many moving pieces, and learning how to put them down, so I can focus on being here, now, is the trick to having control over flipping the ON OFF switch for being present.... being in the zone... etc. 

Call it what I have, it's learning to get myself back in the moment, and re set old pathways so THIS is my default.

20 - 60 days of practice. 

::BIG BREATH::.

I might journal about this. 

I might write about it on the board. 

Will see.

Lighter

I'll add all these to my reading list, Lighter!  You'll be busy reading for a while :)  I had an interesting chat with the acupuncturist about my current struggles.  He practices Taoism so we talked about how that applies to day to day situations.  I like the way he explains things.  He suggested I write some affirmations, which I'm not keen on because I'm not keen on all the law of attraction stuff.  But he suggested just phrasing things in a way that focuses on the qualities about myself that I like so that I put my attention to that more than what other people are or aren't doing - not so much about trying to make certain things happen externally but more about feeling happier in myself and not focusing so much on the lack.  It's a balance - isn't it - we need to focus on lack to change things when necessary but focusing too much makes me fall into a pit.  I think it's going to be okay.  Thank you for birthday wishes :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 10, 2019, 05:04:58 PM
I think it's unhelpful when we're negatively impacted by someone or something....
the word, for me, MEDITATION, was quite triggering, and  brought up anger for me, and frustration FOR YEARS.  Like a little social club giggling over secrets they wouldn't share, but felt superior about... just maddening, even though it's not the truth.  It FELT that way.

 A freinamy once spoke about the law of attraction, but she didn't impact me the same way, but I understand.  I  dismissed it, and went on.  It felt like hoo hoo. 

My old Martial Arts Instructor practiced isms.  Taoism or Daoism as he called it... the way.  Not a religion, just a chosen path, and he didn't believe in suffering twice.  Only once, then he stopped going over that thing, and if you ever wondered what X felt like.... BAM, he showed you.  We stopped wondering in front of him, as classmates.

I can't even think how this T took me around it, and avoided that shutdown.  I know she bumped into it later, and just pulled back, and allowed me to HAVE it, unchallenged.. just kept on talking around it, taking little pathways around it, bringing me back to the way I wanted to go... and we both knew that, together.  We understood that resistance, and she dropped the rope every time.  I understood she dropped the rope, and allowed her to find a different path to lead me where I needed and wanted to be.  I really wanted it, is the truth.  I surrendered to that desire for change.

With the law of attraction.... you have frustration and anger.... I think.  You're entitled to it, and you should have it, hold it, give it space to belong, and know it's a part of you that will always be there.

The law of attraction is one way of explaining something that makes sense to some, but not others.
 Fine.  It doesn't work for you.  Ok.

I understand my brain as a computer.  I open a file, and input information.  That information will be used in calculations for possible solutions. 

It's simple for me.  Even if I have unconscious belief systems countering that positive information, I know cultivating the positive or what I want, today, will bring me more of that tomorrow.  I'm experiencing it now, and falling short, but it's the mission. I want to engage neurolasticity, gain control over my biology, and brain pathways, and cultivate non judgmental presence in the moment.

That's the game today

Dropping judgment.  Dropping expectation. 

I don't really need to repeat things negative people in my life have said, or believed ABOUT ME.  I don't want to help them keep those ideas alive inside my brain, and body.  I want to see what's real, and what I truly am, outside those beliefs... so harmful, and difficult to challenge once they take up residence in the subconscious. 

My truth is my truth.  What others think... that's just a story.  Sometimes it FEEEEEEEEELS SO REAL, but it's just a story, and I have permission to put them on the shelf, revisit my touchstones, and practice today what I want more of tomorrow. 

It's difficult to deal with old trauma, and I honestly don't want to, bc I'm HUMAN.  Nobody seeks out that kind of pain.  We all spend our time between avoidance, and seeking behaviors.   I can get lost in that pain, and confused, if I don't have a framework to handle it, or deal with it, IME.  I fall back into old coping strategies and feel lost when I forget.  T appointments center me, even if I arrive feeling super bad, I leave feeling super relieved.... touchstones restored, the way revealed, once again. 

  I have to remember... THE framework for DOING THAT, IME.  If I can cultivate the practice of utilizing that framework, even when my default system is blaring alarm bells loudly.... get up under those alarms, and unhook them, consistently, I can change those pathways.  I can make it possible for my brain to finish up old business, bc THAT's what the alarm bells are signaling, IME.  That I have old business that needs attention.  Understanding that.... finding a framework to DO that.... practicing it consistently... makes it possible to get through the old business, file it, and open up possibility for new things, which is the goal for me. 

When I try to do that, outside the framework, it leads to muddled thinking, confusion and pain.  That's not good.  It IS familiar, however, and a struggle not to feel defeat when I'm up against it. 

I'm getting better at dropping judgment.  Noticing my breathe.  Noticing my thoughts, and remembering how to find my framework.  I have tremendous peace after my T sessions.  The last one was really hard... I dreaded it, then left feeling energized, and relieved... so relieved.  To speak my truth, the shame of it, the sadness, and process it with someone who's not judging, and is teachi9ng me not to judge, but to face it.  Let it in, examine it, and keep moving.  Her revelation, for me, was that under all the emotions, and resistance is desire to feel supported emotionally.  To seek it out, and name it.  Ask for it.   

Feeding negatives into my computer program isn't going to get me more of what I want, IME.  It slows me down, and creates a bog situation, IME.  Time to stop doing that.   

Focusing on the positives... what I want more of.... likely will take me to different places, IME.
 I'm trying to do that in everything.... everything.  Just drop the judgment, and stop feeling hijacked.

Less hijack,  and more autopilot engaging the parasympathetic nervous system... silencing the alarm bells.   Just repetition.   

::nod::

Yup.

Lighter




 




 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on August 10, 2019, 09:49:28 PM
Fish and chips while watching rain and drinking tea does sound nice.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 11, 2019, 01:11:11 AM
Fish and chips while watching rain and drinking tea does sound nice.

Thanks, G - it was nice!  And we have plenty of rain at the moment :)  Lol xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 11, 2019, 01:25:58 AM
I think it's unhelpful when we're negatively impacted by someone or something....
the word, for me, MEDITATION, was quite triggering, and  brought up anger for me, and frustration FOR YEARS.  Like a little social club giggling over secrets they wouldn't share, but felt superior about... just maddening, even though it's not the truth.  It FELT that way.

 A freinamy once spoke about the law of attraction, but she didn't impact me the same way, but I understand.  I  dismissed it, and went on.  It felt like hoo hoo. 

My old Martial Arts Instructor practiced isms.  Taoism or Daoism as he called it... the way.  Not a religion, just a chosen path, and he didn't believe in suffering twice.  Only once, then he stopped going over that thing, and if you ever wondered what X felt like.... BAM, he showed you.  We stopped wondering in front of him, as classmates.

I can't even think how this T took me around it, and avoided that shutdown.  I know she bumped into it later, and just pulled back, and allowed me to HAVE it, unchallenged.. just kept on talking around it, taking little pathways around it, bringing me back to the way I wanted to go... and we both knew that, together.  We understood that resistance, and she dropped the rope every time.  I understood she dropped the rope, and allowed her to find a different path to lead me where I needed and wanted to be.  I really wanted it, is the truth.  I surrendered to that desire for change.

With the law of attraction.... you have frustration and anger.... I think.  You're entitled to it, and you should have it, hold it, give it space to belong, and know it's a part of you that will always be there.

The law of attraction is one way of explaining something that makes sense to some, but not others.
 Fine.  It doesn't work for you.  Ok.

I understand my brain as a computer.  I open a file, and input information.  That information will be used in calculations for possible solutions. 

It's simple for me.  Even if I have unconscious belief systems countering that positive information, I know cultivating the positive or what I want, today, will bring me more of that tomorrow.  I'm experiencing it now, and falling short, but it's the mission. I want to engage neurolasticity, gain control over my biology, and brain pathways, and cultivate non judgmental presence in the moment.

That's the game today

Dropping judgment.  Dropping expectation. 

I don't really need to repeat things negative people in my life have said, or believed ABOUT ME.  I don't want to help them keep those ideas alive inside my brain, and body.  I want to see what's real, and what I truly am, outside those beliefs... so harmful, and difficult to challenge once they take up residence in the subconscious. 

My truth is my truth.  What others think... that's just a story.  Sometimes it FEEEEEEEEELS SO REAL, but it's just a story, and I have permission to put them on the shelf, revisit my touchstones, and practice today what I want more of tomorrow. 

It's difficult to deal with old trauma, and I honestly don't want to, bc I'm HUMAN.  Nobody seeks out that kind of pain.  We all spend our time between avoidance, and seeking behaviors.   I can get lost in that pain, and confused, if I don't have a framework to handle it, or deal with it, IME.  I fall back into old coping strategies and feel lost when I forget.  T appointments center me, even if I arrive feeling super bad, I leave feeling super relieved.... touchstones restored, the way revealed, once again. 

  I have to remember... THE framework for DOING THAT, IME.  If I can cultivate the practice of utilizing that framework, even when my default system is blaring alarm bells loudly.... get up under those alarms, and unhook them, consistently, I can change those pathways.  I can make it possible for my brain to finish up old business, bc THAT's what the alarm bells are signaling, IME.  That I have old business that needs attention.  Understanding that.... finding a framework to DO that.... practicing it consistently... makes it possible to get through the old business, file it, and open up possibility for new things, which is the goal for me. 

When I try to do that, outside the framework, it leads to muddled thinking, confusion and pain.  That's not good.  It IS familiar, however, and a struggle not to feel defeat when I'm up against it. 

I'm getting better at dropping judgment.  Noticing my breathe.  Noticing my thoughts, and remembering how to find my framework.  I have tremendous peace after my T sessions.  The last one was really hard... I dreaded it, then left feeling energized, and relieved... so relieved.  To speak my truth, the shame of it, the sadness, and process it with someone who's not judging, and is teachi9ng me not to judge, but to face it.  Let it in, examine it, and keep moving.  Her revelation, for me, was that under all the emotions, and resistance is desire to feel supported emotionally.  To seek it out, and name it.  Ask for it.   

Feeding negatives into my computer program isn't going to get me more of what I want, IME.  It slows me down, and creates a bog situation, IME.  Time to stop doing that.   

Focusing on the positives... what I want more of.... likely will take me to different places, IME.
 I'm trying to do that in everything.... everything.  Just drop the judgment, and stop feeling hijacked.

Less hijack,  and more autopilot engaging the parasympathetic nervous system... silencing the alarm bells.   Just repetition.   

::nod::

Yup.

Lighter

Nodding throughout, Lighter.  I think, for me, what I'm trying to do at the minute is find the bits that work for me, real time, real world situations.  I think possibly for me, the phrase 'law of attraction' is just too caught up in victim blaming, and in not 'hearing' people.  Traumatic experiences are just that; they can shatter your soul, your physicality, soak up your finances, take your possessions, your children, rob you of people you love, expose people you love as deceivers or abusers, give you a life that you didn't ask for and don't deserve.  And all of those things are terribly painful and difficult to deal with and, in my opinion, when you're in a pit that deep and dark, doing anything for yourself can be nigh on impossible.  Those are the times when your dark vibration needs to reach out to loving, caring people who will look after you until you are well enough to get out of that pit again.  I just don't believe (based on my own experiences) that you can experience those feelings and not be affected by them.  And I've not yet been able to find anything written that deals with law of attraction/your thoughts create your reality stuff and also deals with rape, child abuse, domestic violence, inequality, war, famine and so on.  So the phrase itself makes me feel uncomfortable.

I am very happy with constructive thinking, though, and with finding a way to deal with your feelings and cut new pathways through your life (and neural pathways as well).  The acupuncturist did suggest some YouTube films on Taoism for me, and watching them I felt that much of this stuff has been written by men, and by men who lived thousands of years ago - and I'm wondering if that's why it doesn't deal with some of the modern issues and issues that affect primarily women.

Anyway, I digress :)  I am focusing on my affirmations (I am a loving and creative individual.  I am building a supportive network for my son.  I am working on myself and I am open to new relationships with supportive, loving people).  They feel realistic to me, and I've noticed that, if my brain wanders into a ruminating, negative pattern (as it does many times during the day), if I read the affirmations the negative stuff just doesn't fit with them and it evaporates.  So I feel that's helping, at the minute.  I'm not keen on the phrase 'raising my vibration' either; that induces fear in me (deep down, it says, "Tup, if you don't vibrate high enough, step-dad will get you again".  Illogical, I know, but that's what it brings up.  So I need to think of a new phrase for that).  But I do like the idea of making healthier choices that will likely do me more good than harm.  So I'm trying really hard, when I think about or want to do something, to ask myself if this fits with my healthier, more loving lifestyle.  And if the answer's no, I'm trying to find something else to do, or a healthier way to do it.  Can only keep trying, I think.

Phew!  The Voiceless forum comes under 'loving options' for me :) x x x x
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 15, 2019, 04:41:55 PM
I guess we keep plugging away, forming positive habits, and see how cultivating positive things works for us, Tupp. 

I'm feeling really good about finding answers right now, even if I know it takes time plant, and grow new things.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 17, 2019, 01:52:47 AM
I guess we keep plugging away, forming positive habits, and see how cultivating positive things works for us, Tupp. 

I'm feeling really good about finding answers right now, even if I know it takes time plant, and grow new things.

Lighter

That's it, isn't it?  We keep trying to change and form better habits, trying things, seeing if it works, tweaking it or discarding it if it doesn't.

Quite a lot is coming up for me at the minute; a lot of worries about life and how things are going for us.  The lack of reward for the huge amount of work I put in troubles me hugely.  It isn't a case so much of feeling that I'm not enough, it feels more like a case of genuinely not being enough - and still not being able to get anyone else to take the helm, even for a short time.  That troubles me hugely.

I worry enormously about son, and about myself.  We both have health problems and are almost in similar situations now.  What we can do is restricted by our health and how often we can go out is restricted in the same way.  I don't think that son feels loneliness.  He's very happy as long as he has his stuff around him - computer, books, favourite films, Lego sets.  I am finding the loneliness is eating me alive.  I've genuinely never felt it so acutely nor been so badly affected by it.

I don't feel positive about the future.  State care provision is poor and funding/policies/legislation is changed with alarming regularity, meaning that, even if you get a good package in place, there's no guarantee it will remain in place.  The other thing that troubles me is the thought that, once I'm dead, there will be no-one to even visit son, unless a kind friend or neighbour happens to still be around to do it.  But there's no family, no partner and the couple of friends who would visit are older than me and therefore not too likely to be around for much longer than I will.  That troubles me greatly.

I also don't feel positive about work.  Even with son taken care of, I no longer feel that I could cope with a stressful, busy or noisy job, nor one that involves a lot of physical activity.  That will affect what I can do, obviously, and therefore what I can earn.  Living costs here are astronomical and predicted to keep rising, probably sharply once 'Brexit' happens.  Our current government has dismantled, sold off and run in to the ground all of our state provision - health service, social services, leisure facilities, transport, monetary benefits, police, fire crews, even the roads are in a state.  The population have voted for that - twice.  I find the notion of anyone voting to get rid of the very services that they will have to rely on in times of crisis or hardship baffling - who gives away their own lifeboat?  But people have, and people with disabilities have born the brunt of that.  So many have died, or are living in miserable conditions - alone, without support, very limited incomes.  It troubles me hugely.

And money.  I don't have a pension, or any savings.  My home is owned by a private landlord, who gets paid before anyone else.  It's the smallest and cheapest I could get that still gave us a bedroom each, and it's still very expensive.  It's a constant struggle to find anything beyond paying the bills.  Son does better, because he gets disability benefits so there is a little spare for him, but for me there is very little beyond paying for what is essential.  I honestly thought him going to college would change all of that.  I thought I'd at least be able to work part time, and that he'd start gaining a little independence, maybe making friends and getting a bit more interested in the world.  I thought I would have time to myself, that I'd see my friends regularly, make new ones, even start going out in the evening.  But the opposite has been true.  College has been a huge amount of hard work, for very little reward.  His health has suffered, as has mine, and he's become even more focused on staying in the house and it's harder to get him out than it used to be.  I've not seen a soul; it's become very apparent that my friends have busy lives that I can't keep up with.  I've met nice people and I do appreciate that but I don't even feel like I've got the energy, or the resilience now, to reach out to try with new people and risk being knocked back or used in some way again.  So that feels hard.

I do feel better for just writing all of that down.  Those are my 'truths', as you would say, Hops!  I feel like they are very big, very real problems that I've tried very hard, for many years, to address, but I'm still not making any headway.  So - my next phase to investigate is - Intentional Communities.

I have looked in to this before.  I still prefer to call them communes - I think it sounds cosier - but they aren't called that any more, apparently.  The stumbling block I've come up against when I've looked in to them previously was the workload.  Many will allow you to work in leiu of rent, but as I'd have had to work enough to cover rent for myself and son, whilst looking after him and home educating him, it was just too much work and each option I looked in to seemed to put me in the same situation.  My other concern with it was having to look at places in which there was alternative (cheap) accommodation available, in case things didn't work out and we needed to move out.  That was hard to find as well, keeping in mind that I also wanted somewhere that had a range of provisions available for son.  So each avenue I went down seemed too difficult to follow through.

Things have changed a little now.  I'd still have to do son's share of the work for him, but some 'back of an envelope' calculations seem to suggest that will be less work than the hours I'd have to do to earn enough to pay his share of the rent on our current place.  We're both looking into ways of making money working from home so I think it might be possible to cover our living expenses by working within the community and then make a bit of money for ourselves on top.

I like the idea of having other people around - not to be in each other's pockets and talk endlessly (and I'm sure there will be times when I wish I was living on my own again) - but it would be nice not to have to leave the house any time I want face to face contact with another human being.  I would feel one less worry about son if I know there are other people about in case some emergency occurs with me.  He can still have a care package that involves carers taking him out or sitting in with him so that I could go out but it would mean that it wouldn't be our only source of support and company (which scares me as I feel that a cut to that provision or the carer leaving, for example, means everything falls back on my shoulders.  At least if that happened I'd be largely based from home anyway, so it wouldn't mean me not being able to go to work, for example).

It's just an idea at the moment.  It will mean a lot of work reading up on places, talking to people, visiting places and no doubt knocking many off the list.  We're still in a situation where I'd want to be somewhere with decent provision for son, should it not work out, and cheapish accommodation available for the same reason.  There's a very real possibility that I'd be just as miserable doing that (once the initial novelty had worn off) as I am living like this, and that scares me a lot.  But - the other possibility is that we get to live somewhere much nicer than our current home without money changing hands, we could both be home based without being so alone all of the time and there would be a bit of back up in an emergency (which we don't currently have).  So I think it's an idea worth looking in to.

What do you guys think? xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 17, 2019, 05:12:37 AM
I guess we keep plugging away, forming positive habits, and see how cultivating positive things works for us, Tupp. 

I'm feeling really good about finding answers right now, even if I know it takes time plant, and grow new things.

Lighter

That's it, isn't it?  We keep trying to change and form better habits, trying things, seeing if it works, tweaking it or discarding it if it doesn't.

Quite a lot is coming up for me at the minute; a lot of worries about life and how things are going for us.  The lack of reward for the huge amount of work I put in troubles me hugely.  It isn't a case so much of feeling that I'm not enough, it feels more like a case of genuinely not being enough - and still not being able to get anyone else to take the helm, even for a short time.  That troubles me hugely.

I worry enormously about son, and about myself.  We both have health problems and are almost in similar situations now.  What we can do is restricted by our health and how often we can go out is restricted in the same way.  I don't think that son feels loneliness.  He's very happy as long as he has his stuff around him - computer, books, favourite films, Lego sets.  I am finding the loneliness is eating me alive.  I've genuinely never felt it so acutely nor been so badly affected by it.

I don't feel positive about the future.  State care provision is poor and funding/policies/legislation is changed with alarming regularity, meaning that, even if you get a good package in place, there's no guarantee it will remain in place.  The other thing that troubles me is the thought that, once I'm dead, there will be no-one to even visit son, unless a kind friend or neighbour happens to still be around to do it.  But there's no family, no partner and the couple of friends who would visit are older than me and therefore not too likely to be around for much longer than I will.  That troubles me greatly.

I also don't feel positive about work.  Even with son taken care of, I no longer feel that I could cope with a stressful, busy or noisy job, nor one that involves a lot of physical activity.  That will affect what I can do, obviously, and therefore what I can earn.  Living costs here are astronomical and predicted to keep rising, probably sharply once 'Brexit' happens.  Our current government has dismantled, sold off and run in to the ground all of our state provision - health service, social services, leisure facilities, transport, monetary benefits, police, fire crews, even the roads are in a state.  The population have voted for that - twice.  I find the notion of anyone voting to get rid of the very services that they will have to rely on in times of crisis or hardship baffling - who gives away their own lifeboat?  But people have, and people with disabilities have born the brunt of that.  So many have died, or are living in miserable conditions - alone, without support, very limited incomes.  It troubles me hugely.

And money.  I don't have a pension, or any savings.  My home is owned by a private landlord, who gets paid before anyone else.  It's the smallest and cheapest I could get that still gave us a bedroom each, and it's still very expensive.  It's a constant struggle to find anything beyond paying the bills.  Son does better, because he gets disability benefits so there is a little spare for him, but for me there is very little beyond paying for what is essential.  I honestly thought him going to college would change all of that.  I thought I'd at least be able to work part time, and that he'd start gaining a little independence, maybe making friends and getting a bit more interested in the world.  I thought I would have time to myself, that I'd see my friends regularly, make new ones, even start going out in the evening.  But the opposite has been true.  College has been a huge amount of hard work, for very little reward.  His health has suffered, as has mine, and he's become even more focused on staying in the house and it's harder to get him out than it used to be.  I've not seen a soul; it's become very apparent that my friends have busy lives that I can't keep up with.  I've met nice people and I do appreciate that but I don't even feel like I've got the energy, or the resilience now, to reach out to try with new people and risk being knocked back or used in some way again.  So that feels hard.

OK.  I'm noticing your fear, and frustration in your post, and it seems your in fight or flight mode, going round and round, alarms blaring, and in charge.  My T would talk me down, so the alarms quieted.... no judgement.... just breathing... she'd touch her nose, and I'd touch mine... bringing attention to breathing in.... "I have arrived"... breathing out.... "I feel at home."

If that doesn't work, we tap on the problem.  She has me say out loud my thoughts, and she writes them down, then walks me through the problems.... "This problem I have with (insert problem) and I tap the different points, repeating the words, twice.  Then move on to anothe statement, and tap through again, twice.  I move into a positive space about how I'd like things to change, and BE.
 I always feel better, sometimes complete relief lands on me like a warm soft blanket.  It's hit or miss,  but it's always moving in the right direction, and often there's joy in practice.  I get a lot out of Youtube videos as I work in the yard, do housework, etc.   I try to read, and practice sitting and walking meditation regularly, but that's a work in progress.

When I hear your fear around getting hurt again.... it reminds me of Pia Mellody's Youtube video on lack of boundaries..... sometimes we have walls up,  and those walls can be anger or fear.   Typically it's injustice done to us that diminishes our self worth.  The natural frustration turns into anger,  trying to get our self worth back (paraphrasing of course) but that never works. 

We have to learn how to regulate our emotions through breathing, sitting and walking meditations, paying attention to the fear,  the anger, the sadness, the loss of what we had or would could have been....with curiosity, and compassion.... no judging.... and that's addressing our trauma.  The beginning of addressing our trauma, and we deserve to wiggle out from under it, Tupp.  We deserve to calm those alarm bells, and engage our frontal lobes, and embrace NOW, sluff off the worries of tomorrow, and the bile of yesterday. 

Even if we can't change our truth, we can change how we deal with it, and feel about it.  We can cultivate peace, and calm, and lose nothing..... being anxious,  and frustrated and angry, and fearful doesn't get us more of what we want.  It diminishes our capacity to experience joy, and fellowship, and intimacy.  Those darned walls of fear and anger need to be dismantled, replaced with flexible boundaries, exterior and interior.  They'll keep us safe, and we can venture into community again, without fear.

The trauma traps us, is insidious, without our realizing it, we're underwater, and didn't see it coming.  There's a way back to the surface, Tupp.  The injustice might not change,  is unlikely to change, but how we feel about it, and deal with it can change. What does hypervigilance get us?
 Isolated, frustrated more deeply, and ANGRY.  Angrier and angier, and holding it in just makes it grow. instead, we can go inside, find the pain in our body, name it, sit with that pain, and give it what it's asking for.... attention

Honestly, it feels like adding space to my interior... pushing out the walls, and inviting air, and spaciousness inside.... pushing the pressure off my interior, and relieving the physical manifestations of the emotional struggle.  But that's not often...  it's just enough to help me KNOW I don't have to live this life haunted, and in fight or flight mode.  I can have more choices, and if one of those choices is joy..... I'll take that,  please.   

I write this out, bc it helps me, and bc I hope a thing or two clicks for you.  I had to hear it a certain way for it to click for me, and it's sort of like praying for me.  Like a wavelength, a frequency I'm not used to being on, but can find,  if I try, and experience something that feels like transcendence.
 That's hopeful,  IME.

You don't know what will happen in the future.  You can't know, bc no one knows, and sometimes for humans that's worse.  It's just too much energy spent upset over things that might not happen at all.  Energy we could spend problem solving or enjoying what we have NOW.   Ok, I'll leave that there. 


I do feel better for just writing all of that down.  Those are my 'truths', as you would say, Hops!  I feel like they are very big, very real problems that I've tried very hard, for many years, to address, but I'm still not making any headway.  So - my next phase to investigate is - Intentional Communities.

I have looked in to this before.  I still prefer to call them communes - I think it sounds cosier - but they aren't called that any more, apparently.  The stumbling block I've come up against when I've looked in to them previously was the workload.  Many will allow you to work in leiu of rent, but as I'd have had to work enough to cover rent for myself and son, whilst looking after him and home educating him, it was just too much work and each option I looked in to seemed to put me in the same situation.  My other concern with it was having to look at places in which there was alternative (cheap) accommodation available, in case things didn't work out and we needed to move out.  That was hard to find as well, keeping in mind that I also wanted somewhere that had a range of provisions available for son.  So each avenue I went down seemed too difficult to follow through.
I'm intrigued, Tupp.  You're very resourceful, and competent.  Perhaps the work load wouldn't have to be something taxing and loud, and difficult.  Perhaps it could be something you're good at, and don't hate to do?   

Things have changed a little now.  I'd still have to do son's share of the work for him, but some 'back of an envelope' calculations seem to suggest that will be less work than the hours I'd have to do to earn enough to pay his share of the rent on our current place.  We're both looking into ways of making money working from home so I think it might be possible to cover our living expenses by working within the community and then make a bit of money for ourselves on top.Sounds encouraging.

I like the idea of having other people around - not to be in each other's pockets and talk endlessly (and I'm sure there will be times when I wish I was living on my own again) - but it would be nice not to have to leave the house any time I want face to face contact with another human being.  I would feel one less worry about son if I know there are other people about in case some emergency occurs with me. I'm a little alarmed at an unexpected yearning to live among nuns..  ::sigh::  Picturing you and your son in a community, like the midwives and nuns in the BBC series CALL THE MIDWIVES.... brings me joy. He can still have a care package that involves carers taking him out or sitting in with him so that I could go out but it would mean that it wouldn't be our only source of support and company (which scares me as I feel that a cut to that provision or the carer leaving, for example, means everything falls back on my shoulders.  At least if that happened I'd be largely based from home anyway, so it wouldn't mean me not being able to go to work, for example).This portion of your post seems pretty grounded, and centered,
 Tupp. 


It's just an idea at the moment.  It will mean a lot of work reading up on places, talking to people, visiting places and no doubt knocking many off the list.  We're still in a situation where I'd want to be somewhere with decent provision for son, should it not work out, and cheapish accommodation available for the same reason. You're always thinking ahead, Tupp.  You're an amazing person.  I hope you can step into your self worth, and own how special you truly are. There's a very real possibility that I'd be just as miserable doing that (once the initial novelty had worn off) as I am living like this, and that scares me a lot.  But - the other possibility is that we get to live somewhere much nicer than our current home without money changing hands, we could both be home based without being so alone all of the time and there would be a bit of back up in an emergency (which we don't currently have).  So I think it's an idea worth looking in to.  That;s all you're doing.  Expanding choice, and examining those choices.  That's a good thing, Tupp.  90% research, and 10% execution: )  Light

What do you guys think? xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 18, 2019, 05:53:22 AM
Defo lots of research, Lighter, and I did laugh at your 'Call The Midwife' analogy :)  There are definitely places like that around but lots of other alternatives - eco villages, direct action groups, communities that are very focused on bringing art to the local community, communities that are specifically for people with learning disabilities (I'm not keen on these, they all seem to focus on the horticulture/animal care/catering route which just isn't right for son), all sorts of different set ups.  Some are coastal, some very rural, some set up on big council estates or inner city areas.  Some required people to build their own homes or buy existing houses, some are renting a room in a shared house.  A couple are completely off grid - people living in their own shelters in the forest.  That sort of thing appeals to me when the weather is nice but at no other time lol.  Lots of different possibilities.  There are a few within driving distance of us and most run open days or community events so we can go along and just start getting a bit of an idea of what might work, what won't, whether or not it's feasible and so on.  I think it will be enjoyable finding out a bit more and visiting a few places - I expect we'll meet some interesting characters, if nothing else! xx

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 18, 2019, 02:08:15 PM
I'm sure there'll be lots of interesting stories, Tupp.  Good luck with your research.  Maybe you'll find a new friend.  You never know: )

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 19, 2019, 03:15:10 AM
I'm sure there'll be lots of interesting stories, Tupp.  Good luck with your research.  Maybe you'll find a new friend.  You never know: )

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter, I think it will be an interesting thing to research, even if it ends up with me deciding against it!  I've found two places within a reasonable drive that we can visit.  One does a community day every Sunday where anyone who fancies going can visit and they put on some activities and food so we're going to go there and get a bit of a feel for the place.  The other organises open days every now and again so I've put our names down to be notified of the next one that's happening so that we can visit them as well.  There was a third one that does weekend visits but they charge and it was quite expensive!  Which I thought was a bit cheeky for people who are interested in finding out more - a small charge I can understand but this was quite a lot so that put me off.

I think what I'd need to look at first of all is whether we'd suit an actual shared house, where everyone is under the same roof, or somewhere where you have separate accommodation but come together at certain times for certain activities.  I think I also need to have a think about whether we're best suited to a place where we can work in leiu of rent, or if it would be easier to be somewhere where we pay rent rather than having to work on site.  And then looking at whether we want a place that has a particular ethos, or a place that's more just a place where people live and that's their main connection.  I want to feel exited about looking in to it but in all honesty I just feel exhausted.  We've still got the current education/legal battle to deal with.  We've also got to deal with transitioning from children's to adult services next year (the social worker is already being a pain in the arse and keeps misquoting chunks of legislation at me so I know she's not being honest.  I'm trying to get a different one but it isn't easy because there are so few of them).  We've also got to transition from child related benefits to adult ones at some point although I'm hoping we can put that off for another year or so and that I might be earning again by then so that might not be such an issue.  I just feel so overwhelmed by it all, plus trying to work on myself, change patterns and habits, be a happy mum for son and take him out from time to time and then dealing with the loneliness which for some reason is intolerable to me right now.  Maybe that's a sign of healing, though?  It might mean I'm open to being around people more now, if I'm finding loneliness difficult to bear?  I'd love a magic wand :) Lol xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 21, 2019, 12:54:02 PM
Feeling slightly less positive about the group today, but am trying to stay as observer/not panic/let things happen and remind myself I don't have to do anything about anything at any time!

Just felt a bit more today that people were off loading on to me, rather than talking (by that I mean conversation, back and forth).  We were only there for an hour or so, slightly longer perhaps, but I felt tired by the time we left, rather than energised as I have done previously.  The scope of what they want to do (and therefore what they want me to do) has changed several times over the last couple of weeks (emails back and forth).  It doesn't affect me hugely but I do feel slightly perturbed that concrete plans keep changing - but will continue to sit back and watch and remind myself this doesn't need to be my thing if it turns out to be a lot to cope with.  Also found out that someone else who's been asked to help out is no longer required - but the lady in charge of the overall thing hasn't told them which I find slightly worrying.  The other person is very keen to help and I understand the lady in charge not feeling they should now (I think they have quite different ideas about where things are heading and how things should be done) but do feel she should have let them know, as the other person was talking today as if they're very involved and they still think we're heading down Path A, whereas lady in charge decided Path B was better a couple of weeks ago, but hasn't told them.  So that felt a bit uncomfortable and I hope they sort that out fairly soon.  I also seem to have fallen in to the role of tea lady and washer upper, which I don't mind completely but I kind of need anything else I do to bolster me up so I think I need to watch out that I don't just become group mother.  Not a biggie, just a few things that came up today so thought I would get them written down and out of my head :) xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on August 21, 2019, 02:26:10 PM
Two I read your last few posts here about intentional community. I don't know what I think about it and don't feel I'm the best to give advice.

I guess we have to explore all options we know about as part of our due diligence in life. Even if a lot of the options end up being no-goes. If we don't at least ponder it we can't even rule them out.

There are so many pros and cons to consider in that scenario.

What is this most recent group that you are doing tea duty for?
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on August 21, 2019, 11:19:46 PM
((((Tupp))))

It's a defense against disappointment to zero in on all the group's mistakes and inadequate leaders. I understand it completely.

I wonder if it'd help you to not be so concerned about the logic, legalistic consistency, or proper organization of their behavior? (Sounds like an echo of how you feel about The System which makes it so hard to trust any bureaucrat, though I know these are just regular people.)

What if, instead, you could not focus on performance, but just on feeling good about being a part of something. Not with grand or perfectionistic goals, but just to be there (NO, not as constant dishwasher!) with other benign human beings, pottering toward some kind of good goal, however imperfectly.

I think you just need to be in rooms with other benign human beings. As often as you can.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 22, 2019, 04:12:20 AM
Two I read your last few posts here about intentional community. I don't know what I think about it and don't feel I'm the best to give advice.

I guess we have to explore all options we know about as part of our due diligence in life. Even if a lot of the options end up being no-goes. If we don't at least ponder it we can't even rule them out.

There are so many pros and cons to consider in that scenario.

What is this most recent group that you are doing tea duty for?

I think that's it, G, it's about exploring options isn't it, and seeing if something may or may not work.  It's just an idea to look into at the moment.  Our current situation isn't sustainable and the prospect of putting him into a care home doesn't appeal to me just yet, partly because of dealing with officialdom, partly because standards are low, partly because I don't think it will change my life much - I'll still be on my own and worn out from working long hours, so too tired to get out there and meet people.  So I'm wondering whether sharing house space would be an option.  It is nice to be in the position of having time to check something out, rather than being in a crisis and having to make a decision quickly (which is what I usually find myself doing) so I'm just going to look on it as a project and see what it turns up :)

The group is a very nice group of local parents who all have children with educational or health problems.  I've been going for a couple of months now and it's been great - yesterday just felt a bit less great and my antennae popped up a bit.  It's no biggie, I'm just noticing things and filing things into 'keep an eye on that'.  It's more to do with my own problems/patterns and not wanting to get myself into another rut where I'm doing too much and feeling resentful.  Just need to keep a balance there :)  How are you doing with your decision making situation?  xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 22, 2019, 04:16:37 AM
((((Tupp))))

It's a defense against disappointment to zero in on all the group's mistakes and inadequate leaders. I understand it completely.

I wonder if it'd help you to not be so concerned about the logic, legalistic consistency, or proper organization of their behavior? (Sounds like an echo of how you feel about The System which makes it so hard to trust any bureaucrat, though I know these are just regular people.)

What if, instead, you could not focus on performance, but just on feeling good about being a part of something. Not with grand or perfectionistic goals, but just to be there (NO, not as constant dishwasher!) with other benign human beings, pottering toward some kind of good goal, however imperfectly.

I think you just need to be in rooms with other benign human beings. As often as you can.

Hugs
Hops

Thanks Hops, all is okay, it was just my antennae popping up.  The only reason I mention the emails and other bits is because that's what they've asked me to help out with.  I don't mind helping but don't want to end up repeating things because people keep changing their minds and getting caught in power struggles because people aren't speaking to each other.  Similarly don't want to fall into the role of 'passive listener' (which is what yesterday felt like a bit) or tea lady!  So it was just noticing things as they come up and giving myself a bit of a reminder not to fall into those old patterns and go down old paths again.  I'm sure it will be okay, I've messaged the lady in charge and asked her if she can speak to the chap she's kept a bit in the dark before she goes on her holidays so hopefully if she does that things will settle down a bit again xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 22, 2019, 06:22:14 AM
Just pondering as I feel sooooo ill today.  We haven't had a major change in our routine - we did go out to meet some friends on Tuesday and I was tired afterwards but it was a nice day and not terribly busy, just a bit more driving than usual.  I'm not in my mad phase of my cycle so I doubt it's hormones and I haven't eaten or taken anything different to normal.  So either Tuesday was too much for me (despite the fact it wasn't a huge amount of activity) and I'm feeling it now, or the triggering yesterday has had an effect.  I think I just need to try to keep track of when I have these random 'ill' days to see if I can spot a link between physical activity or emotional triggers being the factor that's causing the problem.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on August 23, 2019, 02:08:11 AM
Same was a crap week. Tired after stress effect I guess.    Nah no decisions right now
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 23, 2019, 02:27:12 AM
Same was a crap week. Tired after stress effect I guess.    Nah no decisions right now

Another friend of mine has been ill this last week as well, are we all synched in to the moon or something?  Lol, always seems odd to me when people have ill, crappy weeks for no reason and it all comes at the same time.  Sorry no decision yet!  I will catch up on your thread soon to find out what's been happening :) xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 23, 2019, 04:52:33 AM
The group situation has improved :)  I emailed the leader and asked her if she could speak to the guy who is currently in the dark before she goes away, which she has done.  He isn't happy but now that I know he knows and it isn't my bag I don't feel concerned about dealing with anything when she's away next week so I feel better about that.

Lighter's co-dependency thread has made me think a lot about how I validate myself by the actions and reactions of other people, and how much of my life I've spent running round after other people, thinking about other people, doing what they want and so on.  And where is Tupp in all of that?  So I'm going to try really, really hard to focus on my own health and just making myself feel as well and healthy as I possibly can, and to try not to focus on what other people are doing and saying - what do I want to do, what do I think, how do I feel?  I want to try and focus more on that and not what I feel because of things other people say or do (or don't do!).  And as phase one I am still in bed three hours after waking up!  Have been listening to meditation music, eating toast, drinking tea, cuddling the cat and reading (and coming on here). xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on August 24, 2019, 12:18:37 AM
Quote
I'm going to try really, really hard to focus on my own health and just making myself feel as well and healthy as I possibly can, and to try not to focus on what other people are doing and saying - what do I want to do, what do I think, how do I feel?  I want to try and focus more on that and not what I feel because of things other people say or do (or don't do!).  And as phase one I am still in bed three hours after waking up!  Have been listening to meditation music, eating toast, drinking tea, cuddling the cat and reading (and coming on here).

This is outstanding, Tupp. I think it's a big shift in your compass and will help it move North.

I think something popped up for me....that I'm at my most miserable when I'm grieving (or angry) about yesterday -- OR -- fearing (grief or anticipatory anger) tomorrow.

What you did instead sounded so real, alive, and experienced in the present moment of being in your own existence, nobody else's. I think finding a balance between reacting to past/planning for future (which nobody can avoid entirely) with this exact kind of present self care (not just driven by a "how to do perfect self care" list but honestly by what you said: What do you want to do? How do you feel now? -- is fantastic.

You keep trusting yourself, Tupp -- your compass is a good one.

Hugs
Hops

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 24, 2019, 03:31:15 AM
Quote
I'm going to try really, really hard to focus on my own health and just making myself feel as well and healthy as I possibly can, and to try not to focus on what other people are doing and saying - what do I want to do, what do I think, how do I feel?  I want to try and focus more on that and not what I feel because of things other people say or do (or don't do!).  And as phase one I am still in bed three hours after waking up!  Have been listening to meditation music, eating toast, drinking tea, cuddling the cat and reading (and coming on here).

This is outstanding, Tupp. I think it's a big shift in your compass and will help it move North.

I think something popped up for me....that I'm at my most miserable when I'm grieving (or angry) about yesterday -- OR -- fearing (grief or anticipatory anger) tomorrow.

What you did instead sounded so real, alive, and experienced in the present moment of being in your own existence, nobody else's. I think finding a balance between reacting to past/planning for future (which nobody can avoid entirely) with this exact kind of present self care (not just driven by a "how to do perfect self care" list but honestly by what you said: What do you want to do? How do you feel now? -- is fantastic.

You keep trusting yourself, Tupp -- your compass is a good one.

Hugs
Hops

Hops, thank you :)  It's weird when these big shifts happen.  What you said about being your most miserable when you're reacting to something in the past or something in the future really rang for me.  Yesterday I realised that I've spend all my time since I had son waiting and trying to get back to where I was before I had him.  Pre son Tupp had a good job, a good income, her own flat (apartment, I think you guys would call it!), a decent car, a good social life, lots of friends, work colleagues, family (albeit a messed up one but I was still in a state of ignorance and denial then so it didn't matter) and just lots of hope for the future.  Promotion at work, bigger property, more friends, travel etc.  Then I fell pregnant, wasn't in a relationship with the dad (think two weeks of falling out of pubs barely able to stand and you get the picture with that situation) and it didn't phase me.  I just thought I'd have the baby, go back to work and after a couple of years start teaching abroad.  I pictured having this truly international life, where I could work a year or two at a good International School (which son could attend), and then do voluntary work or just travel with him for a bit, and keep doing that.  I honestly thought that was perfectly possible and attainable, and do you know what, without his disabilities, and/or my mum's constant abuse allegations and general nastiness, it would have been achievable.  And through out everything since then, that's more or less what I've kept trying to get back to, at least in terms of working, earning and getting abroad a bit.

Yesterday I realised that I can't go back.  I can give myself platitudes and encouraging comments but the truth of that matter is that part of my life is well and truly over and I've spent the last eighteen years working towards something I can't have.  I've been rowing in the wrong direction.  So the direction I need to go is forward, but I have no idea how, why or who with.  Which I find terrifying.  So I think that, for the time being, I'm best off focusing on myself and nothing else at all, just to give myself a good point from which to start now and to hopefully be healthy enough to enjoy opportunities as they come along.  I'm trying really hard to focus on how things make me feel, rather than what I think I should be doing.  It's very difficult!

But last night we went ferret racing :)  It was a charity event in a nearby village; we'd never been before so in the spirit of trying new things we went along.  We parked near the beach and walked into the village, lots of holiday makers about, the pubs were busy, people are chatty and friendly.  And I thought, I do need to try to start getting out, just for the sake of getting out.  Organising care for son is still a problem but if we just go for an hour or so early evening he'll be fine to sit and have a drink somewhere.  So I'm going to try to get out each weekend to just sit, enjoy a drink and just not be sitting at home on my own.  Feels a bit scary!  But it's part of my mission now to improve my health (the loneliness and isolation doesn't help me at all, I find it very hard now).  I will let you all know how it goes! xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 24, 2019, 05:19:40 AM
Something has just hit me right in the face and now I've seen it it seems so obvious that I don't understand how I haven't seen it before!

All this time alone - the isolation, the endless days sitting indoors, not having a circle of people to talk to (I've got you guys but not similar in real life) - all of which gets me down and makes me feel unwanted, is a result of putting boundaries in place and setting myself some standards that I'm not prepared to back down on (particularly in relation to son being around abusive people and so on).  And I have struggled with that for years, because it feels like I'm being punished for standing up for myself and doing 'the right thing'.

But - what I've just realised this morning is that having all this alone time and not having people around me too much is the perfect opportunity to put in place healthy habits, to build structures and routines that suit myself and son, to do what makes us both happy (instead of running around after other people all the time) and just generally is a good place to start out from.  A clean slate.  Myself and son, with all the knowledge and experience we've accumulated over the last eighteen years, good and bad, a better idea of what works and what doesn't.  Better antennae to avoid getting into bad relationships again, more experience when it comes to work, a better idea of what we need now, and what we don't.  Which all feels quite positive?  I've surprised myself lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 24, 2019, 03:22:28 PM
Yes yes yes, Tupp.  You're in position to build new habits, and move forward in safety. 

You have room to create, and add worthy relationships.  This is possible bc you've questioned and limited past relationships.
Loneliness is a messenger too.  This part of your life needed attention.

I don't know why growth is painful, but it is, ime

You have good reason to feel optimistic: )
Lighter

I think you see your future with clarity.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on August 25, 2019, 03:35:16 PM

All this time alone - the isolation, the endless days sitting indoors, not having a circle of people to talk to (I've got you guys but not similar in real life) - all of which gets me down and makes me feel unwanted, is a result of putting boundaries in place and setting myself some standards that I'm not prepared to back down on (particularly in relation to son being around abusive people and so on).  And I have struggled with that for years, because it feels like I'm being punished for standing up for myself and doing 'the right thing'.


Well community is a pretty basic human need, I think most people probably suffer to a degree without it excluding those men who go off to cabins deep in the wilderness and they still receive periodic visits from a supplier of sorts. I think it's hard to have a tribe in the modern world. People with large intact nuclear families maybe have a tribe. Seniors at senior centers have their community there. Maybe Amish people and very active churches like Mormons who give each other house visitations are in the midst of a community. Everything else in my opinion feels like pop-up and transient style community, co-workers, volunteering. All the community I've ever found really does dissipate after a while. Whatever the secret to maintaining meaningful community is I don't know. I guess people who are at the center of it being the facilitator, leader always have people revolving around them, business owners or something.

I guess if your relationship to community is to bend to anybody else's wishes in order to get alone then yah some time away from that would be a chance to see it from a distance and sort it out I guess.

Thinking about it made me want to look up books just now on community. First book I landed on when actually reading ends up being about ON-LINE community and marketing for it. I'm definitely at home sitting on my computer right now, I think some people fall into this trap because it is the easy thing to do in the city. Some places community is just easier to get involved in because it just exists already, part of the vibe of an area. Literally I used to live in a town where they were still having square dances regularly and young people went to them. It's bizarre and unheard of where I'm at now.

Frankly I often feel like I am at the wrong place at the wrong time consistently. Like I am just trying to get by someplace I don't really belong.



Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on August 25, 2019, 06:31:57 PM
G, I think you'd be a great addition and candidate for small town life! Tupp, is your town a summer tourist mecca? If that's the case, the season is close to hand now, when "local community" revs up a bit because all the tourists are gone. You might find some of those new acquaintances becoming friends soon.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on August 26, 2019, 09:59:28 PM
Two I think it's harder when you're single and you're trying to do every single thing by yourself. Maybe because of feminism and a culture of you can do it attitude exist people aren't supposed to admit that it's just difficult to do things alone. I think it when people believe they have help just knowing that gives a person energy because they feel like some burden has been taken off their shoulders that they are part of a team and they're contributing but they're not carrying the whole load of everything. And I think when you've been doing everything yourself for a long time a person can just get used to being tired cuz when it accepts the burden. I'm not saying people shouldn't be single or anything. It's not news. It's just stating the obvious but maybe sometimes we have to be reminded of the obvious. I mean if you're single your time your energy your money is just stretched that much more.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 31, 2019, 05:45:25 AM
Two I think it's harder when you're single and you're trying to do every single thing by yourself. Maybe because of feminism and a culture of you can do it attitude exist people aren't supposed to admit that it's just difficult to do things alone. I think it when people believe they have help just knowing that gives a person energy because they feel like some burden has been taken off their shoulders that they are part of a team and they're contributing but they're not carrying the whole load of everything. And I think when you've been doing everything yourself for a long time a person can just get used to being tired cuz when it accepts the burden. I'm not saying people shouldn't be single or anything. It's not news. It's just stating the obvious but maybe sometimes we have to be reminded of the obvious. I mean if you're single your time your energy your money is just stretched that much more.

G, all absolutely, true, and I was nodding all the way through your other post as well, about community and how transient it is and how it can be hard to fit in.  And maybe that's why we have transient communities now, because we fit in at a certain time - because we work at a certain place, or we joined an art group, or we're at a parenting group with other people whose kids are the same age - and then when the situation changes the friendships don't survive.  Maybe that's it.  I do feel that a lot of the time connections with other people are about filling a basic need - an unoccupied morning, a bit of solidarity over a shared issue (moaning about the boss, for example), a sense of obligation to say yes to an invitation - and much less about connecting with people on a deeper level and creating something that can withstand distance, changing circumstances, difficult times and so on.  I think I need to continue to focus on people's core qualities, rather than what they do or what they say but also to really focus on my own values now and stay true to them - not to bend to fit in with other people anymore.

And yes, being single.  I enjoy it.  I certainly couldn't put up with a bad relationship now.  But I would really like to meet someone who just ticks my boxes and is just an easy fit, you know?  Like comfy trousers (or pants, as you guys would say :) ) Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 31, 2019, 05:48:50 AM
G, I think you'd be a great addition and candidate for small town life! Tupp, is your town a summer tourist mecca? If that's the case, the season is close to hand now, when "local community" revs up a bit because all the tourists are gone. You might find some of those new acquaintances becoming friends soon.

Skep, yes, lots of tourists, it's been really nice, I've enjoyed directing people to good places to park and telling them where to get the best icecream!  And I agree, G would be a great addition anywhere :) Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on August 31, 2019, 06:00:31 AM
Yes yes yes, Tupp.  You're in position to build new habits, and move forward in safety. 

You have room to create, and add worthy relationships.  This is possible bc you've questioned and limited past relationships.
Loneliness is a messenger too.  This part of your life needed attention.

I don't know why growth is painful, but it is, ime

You have good reason to feel optimistic: )
Lighter

I think you see your future with clarity.

Lighter

New habits, Lighter, new habits :)

Acunpuncturist suggested I write a list of 101 things to do before I die (might have already mentioned this on a thread, I'm not sure).  I wrote it in about twenty minutes flat and could easily have written more; there is so much I have wished I could be doing over the years!  So I wrote it all out and it's a good list.  I decided that I am going to spilt my week into work and play.  I have things I have to do each day; I don't particularly want to but they need doing.  So I am giving myself a working day of eight hours, Monday to Friday, and during the working hours I will do the boring but necessary stuff.  Then the time outside of that, and the weekends, and the 28 days holiday a year I have decided to award myself (apparently 28 days is the national average here) I can spend working on my list of things to do before I die, trying to find ways to do things, find out more about things and so on.  So far, it's working well!  I feel less down trodden and downcast and I've had some nice evenings working on projects of my own.  I want to do a memory book up for my son for his 18th next year so I got started on that, and finally pulled out the jewellery making kit I bought about three years ago and haven't opened yet.  I've dance round the sitting room, chopped the sleeves off a couple of tops to 'customise' them and have started sifting through a pile of resources I've made for son over the years, thinking I might stick them up online and see if anyone else wants to use them.  It's felt better than just plodding through the day until I drop and then watching crap telly until I go to bed.

In less good news, my sister called to tell me my mum knows where we live and is planning to holiday here in the next month.  I really thought she might have stopped with all this crap now.  I kicked myself for telling anyone we'd moved but then thought no, I shouldn't have to live like a fugitive on the run.  I dreamt I was being raped last night, and was screaming with no noise coming out.  I hate that dream so much, I woke at 4am on the verge of screaming for real.  Couldn't get back to sleep.  I hate that just the mention of them both still elicits something that I can't control (how do I control my dreams?  I'm not even conscious).  I have put 'see my mum again' on my list of things to do before I die.  Maybe that will be happening sooner than I think.  I can only keep on doing what I'm doing and just deal with things as they come up but the woman drives me mad.  It has made me realise that my thinking that I could help her out if she ended up alone is probably just nonsense; just the thought of her has thrown me completely off course so there's no way I could go back to any kind of regular contact with her.  She's a royal pain in the arse.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on August 31, 2019, 11:59:03 AM
Ahh, sorry about your sister's news, ((Tupp.)) 

I'd like to believe that it's just an empty poke at you, and maybe it is.  In any case, you might want to jot down thoughts about this on a new pad of paper, process what you need to about this, review it, then burn it, or shred, whatever feels best.

Once you process it, you'll have more room to relax into the knowledge these people don't have power over you any longer, and you can take back the power they do have.  The mindful practice, cultivating curiosity, and compassion for yourself and situation, refusing to live with the knee jerk fight or flight reaction you've always suffered..... maybe this event... or the threat of the event, can lead to huge growth, and realizing for you.  And that knee jerk reaction is a terrible way to live.   It was installed by the PDs, and it's necessary to uninstall it, and reprogram our responses. 

These people are elderly, have little time to poison people, they don't KNOW who to seek out and tell lies to, they're elderly and can't sit outside your home for long waiting for you to come and go... they'll likely appear insane if they go to the college, and start spewing accusations that don't jibe in any way with who you are, and what you're doing for your son. 

They're very sad, broken, elderly people, and they no longer have the power over you and your son they once had.  The truth is they certainly did, and you've suffered terribly.  That's your reality THEN, but it's not your reality now.  Your brain doesn't know the difference.  Time to internalize that reality, maybe.

You've broken away physically, and now you can break away emotionally. 

As difficult as it is to have criminals come back and attempt to harm you again, which stirs up the original injustice, we have a choice to limit that emotional vomit, IME.

Take back your power.  Even though the PDs have intention to harm and do trauma to you.... they no longer have the ability to do so.  Internalize that, and claim that power for yourself.  With curiosity.  With compassion for yourself, then and now.  No judgment.  Just notice what comes up.

I hope you can reach out to your good friends, get some feedback.  Hit on it, with notes, then put it down.  I find my most pragmatic friends have very good insights, and I always benefit from short discussions about the PDs.

Perhaps visit the local police station, and give them a heads up regarding the possibility your pedophile sf will confront you at your home, or in your community, and ask them to keep an eye out.  MEET your local police officers, and get to know them.  You have court documents alleging those assaults.  The police can be on your side this time if your calm, and to the point, IME. 


Then put the PDs away, and channel peace around the situation.  Maybne write your mum a letter you don't send, but have it clear in your mind what your feelings are now, so you aren't confused if she shows up.  Your wish to see her again might happen, as you say.  What would you truly wish for that moment?  You can't control her, or what she does, but you can do and say the things that are important to you, and that's all that really matters.  What you can control. 


THIS can be a triumphant experience of reclaiming your inner world, and limiting any future harm from your past. 

I love the list of things to do before you die.  We call it a bucket list here, and it's about focusing on what you want more of, and cultivating it, which is the mission, right?

I also love the memory book for son's 18th birthday.  Just the idea of doing that makes me feel relaxed, and happy for you.

You're a hero, and we know that truth about you,  ((Tupp.))  You're an Amazon of the first order.   

Lighter



Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 02, 2019, 04:18:06 AM
Ahh, sorry about your sister's news, ((Tupp.)) 

I'd like to believe that it's just an empty poke at you, and maybe it is.  In any case, you might want to jot down thoughts about this on a new pad of paper, process what you need to about this, review it, then burn it, or shred, whatever feels best.

Once you process it, you'll have more room to relax into the knowledge these people don't have power over you any longer, and you can take back the power they do have.  The mindful practice, cultivating curiosity, and compassion for yourself and situation, refusing to live with the knee jerk fight or flight reaction you've always suffered..... maybe this event... or the threat of the event, can lead to huge growth, and realizing for you.  And that knee jerk reaction is a terrible way to live.   It was installed by the PDs, and it's necessary to uninstall it, and reprogram our responses. 

These people are elderly, have little time to poison people, they don't KNOW who to seek out and tell lies to, they're elderly and can't sit outside your home for long waiting for you to come and go... they'll likely appear insane if they go to the college, and start spewing accusations that don't jibe in any way with who you are, and what you're doing for your son. 

They're very sad, broken, elderly people, and they no longer have the power over you and your son they once had.  The truth is they certainly did, and you've suffered terribly.  That's your reality THEN, but it's not your reality now.  Your brain doesn't know the difference.  Time to internalize that reality, maybe.

You've broken away physically, and now you can break away emotionally. 

As difficult as it is to have criminals come back and attempt to harm you again, which stirs up the original injustice, we have a choice to limit that emotional vomit, IME.

Take back your power.  Even though the PDs have intention to harm and do trauma to you.... they no longer have the ability to do so.  Internalize that, and claim that power for yourself.  With curiosity.  With compassion for yourself, then and now.  No judgment.  Just notice what comes up.

I hope you can reach out to your good friends, get some feedback.  Hit on it, with notes, then put it down.  I find my most pragmatic friends have very good insights, and I always benefit from short discussions about the PDs.

Perhaps visit the local police station, and give them a heads up regarding the possibility your pedophile sf will confront you at your home, or in your community, and ask them to keep an eye out.  MEET your local police officers, and get to know them.  You have court documents alleging those assaults.  The police can be on your side this time if your calm, and to the point, IME. 


Then put the PDs away, and channel peace around the situation.  Maybne write your mum a letter you don't send, but have it clear in your mind what your feelings are now, so you aren't confused if she shows up.  Your wish to see her again might happen, as you say.  What would you truly wish for that moment?  You can't control her, or what she does, but you can do and say the things that are important to you, and that's all that really matters.  What you can control. 


THIS can be a triumphant experience of reclaiming your inner world, and limiting any future harm from your past. 

I love the list of things to do before you die.  We call it a bucket list here, and it's about focusing on what you want more of, and cultivating it, which is the mission, right?

I also love the memory book for son's 18th birthday.  Just the idea of doing that makes me feel relaxed, and happy for you.

You're a hero, and we know that truth about you,  ((Tupp.))  You're an Amazon of the first order.   

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter, for everything you wrote, it really does blow me away that you guys will spend so much time writing stuff to help me level my head out again.  It does help a lot, thank you.

I have heard it called a bucket list as well, some people here call it a f**k it list :)  Which always makes me laugh.  I have struggled over the weekend; I feel pissed off that my body still reacts so strongly to just the knowledge that someone has told her.  I don't think it's even so much that she knows, it's that once again someone has told her.  And I still don't know who it is.  I think the time has come to cut ties with pretty much everyone from my past.  I didn't want to have to - some are good people who I like and get on well with and who've been good to me over the years.  And I feel it's wrong, so wrong, that it's me that has to keep away from people, me that moves house, me that keeps my info off social media and so on.  So that bothers me as well.  But I think it will have to be done this time as it's clear that there's someone there that I can't trust just to not speak or say "I don't know" if they're asked.  It might even be one of my sister's kids and that makes me uneasy, another generation of children being brought up in this fucked up family and feeling that they have to keep secrets or appease her and keep her happy.  But I did kind of shut down over the weekend, I found it very hard to get anything done or think about anything, I feel like I just do onto auto pilot and there's no connection between thinking and feeling any more.

Anyway - I had scheduled my days off over the weekend as is my new habit so it was alright, I didn't have to do anything anyway.  I have cancelled a meeting I had tomorrow as it just feels too much but that's okay, it was a favour for someone and they can go ahead without me anyway so it's not causing a problem.  My anxiety about college has gone through the roof and I had been keeping a lid on that fairly well.  I just feel like someone throws a grenade at me and then my energy has to go into coping with dealing with it.  I so wish I could get to a point where I just don't have a reaction to any of it - it just flows past me and my body doesn't even notice.

In other news I cleared some overgrown bushes from the front so I have a really good view of the tree with the bird feeders in it so I'm watching dozens of birds enjoying their breakfast as I type this up.  There is a little girl on our street who I don't think has a very good home life.  She comes to visit every day and sat in here yesterday drawing pictures.  It was sweet to watch her.  I had a friend's parents who gave me a refuge when I was a kid and I'm still so grateful to them for that.  It made me happy to think she might look back one day and have nice memories of drawing pictures and talking to the cat.

I hope you're alright after the storm situation and that there isn't too much damage at the island house.  Thank you again, I appreciate it so much xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 02, 2019, 02:28:13 PM
Tupp, I'm so very sorry.
I can completely imagine how that bit of news triggered anxiety and nightmares.

But I have to say Lighter's post even calmed ME down. It was extraordinary and I can just admiringly echo, "what she said." All of it.

I think basically the truth is that an N does wither with age and loses their power. If you want to test it you can agree to have a cup of tea with her. But you sure don't need to have her enter your home. That's the limit I immediately thought of: IF YOU WANT TO, agree to meet her at a cafe of your choosing. But never invite her home. If she asks, here's an answer: "No." She doesn't get control.

As to who betrayed your wish to not have her get the info about where you live...no point. People are gossips at heart and if, as you guess, some young relative has slid into that toxic pattern under your family's tutelage, there is absolutely nothing you could do about that.

I hope you'll soon find a T, a new and present friend to talk to. This is really tough for you and I am so glad you pour it out here.

I have such enormous faith in you, Tupp. Your mother doesn't own the moon or the air or the life in your body or anything else. Her magical powers were removed and she's just a crazy old manipulative lady and it's sad, and even though you have some compassion, you have learned that your FIRST empathy belongs to yourself and your son. That is core life and health preservation. They're simply not going to be given away, no matter what nonsense she imagines.

Big big hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 03, 2019, 01:20:09 AM
Tupp, I'm so very sorry.
I can completely imagine how that bit of news triggered anxiety and nightmares.

But I have to say Lighter's post even calmed ME down. It was extraordinary and I can just admiringly echo, "what she said." All of it.

I think basically the truth is that an N does wither with age and loses their power. If you want to test it you can agree to have a cup of tea with her. But you sure don't need to have her enter your home. That's the limit I immediately thought of: IF YOU WANT TO, agree to meet her at a cafe of your choosing. But never invite her home. If she asks, here's an answer: "No." She doesn't get control.

As to who betrayed your wish to not have her get the info about where you live...no point. People are gossips at heart and if, as you guess, some young relative has slid into that toxic pattern under your family's tutelage, there is absolutely nothing you could do about that.

I hope you'll soon find a T, a new and present friend to talk to. This is really tough for you and I am so glad you pour it out here.

I have such enormous faith in you, Tupp. Your mother doesn't own the moon or the air or the life in your body or anything else. Her magical powers were removed and she's just a crazy old manipulative lady and it's sad, and even though you have some compassion, you have learned that your FIRST empathy belongs to yourself and your son. That is core life and health preservation. They're simply not going to be given away, no matter what nonsense she imagines.

Big big hugs,
Hops

Thanks, Hops, yes, you're right, Lighter is Mrs Calm :)  I think the issue for me isn't what my mum may or may not do or say or anything else, it's more that my body still has such huge physical responses to her.  I feel like I've been hit by a truck, despite working so hard to do yoga each day, stay calm, eat well, keep away from toxic people and so on.  And it's not me that's reached out to her, or anyone else - I keep myself to myself and my contact with people who know her is basically limited to birthday and christmas cards now.  I feel like I've had a four day hangover even though I haven't had a drink :)

It has made me realise that I need to cut ties with my past, completely.  I'm just so done with it all, largely because so many people I know from way back just haven't changed in so many years.  If I met them now I wouldn't go near them; quite frankly, our paths wouldn't even cross these days.  I've always felt bad about leaving people behind, because it's hurt me so much when other people have done it to me.  But, just as an alternative example, I posted something on Facebook about some problems we've had getting hold of my son's meds lately.  Some of my Facebook 'friends' are other parents with poorly kids or work with people with disabilities so I was asking if anyone had any more information about the current situation.  Some friends responded with calm, factually based answers about various things they'd read and heard - useful information.  Others - people from the past - responded with rants about the EU causing shortages and all the bloody immigrants using all our services and I just thought, do you know what, none of these people know how offensive I find this, because none of them have ever stopped banging on about themselves for long enough to ask what I think (and for some reason they all seem to be unaware that my Dad was an immigrant, as is my son's Dad, as is one of my best friends).  And I just thought, how do these people know so little about me?  It's an aside, but it just focused for me that no-one from my past is part of my life now and I just need to toughen up a bit and cut them out.  Really, really time to move on now.  I guess I moved in distance but not emotionally - I need to do that bit now as well xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Meh on September 03, 2019, 01:36:48 AM
Well I think it's good to keep on writing it all out. I think in the process of writing about emotional distance maybe you can get emotional distance.

For me personally I feel in the past month I've had more distance from my mother. After writing it out I then put it out of my mind for a while.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 03, 2019, 04:50:00 AM
Well I think it's good to keep on writing it all out. I think in the process of writing about emotional distance maybe you can get emotional distance.

For me personally I feel in the past month I've had more distance from my mother. After writing it out I then put it out of my mind for a while.

Yes, definitely, G, writing about it helps, and I find the feedback on here so helpful.  So many people with similar experiences that can share what helped, what didn't, who know you can fall off your horse again and again and don't judge you for it.  Amazing place to be :)

I've thought about the situation more as well, because my body's very strong reaction puzzles me.  Logically, the most she can do is a false allegation, which she won't get very far with, some untrue gossip to her cronies - don't care, I don't have anything to do with any of them, or leave some crap on the doorstep/post something through the door.  I know that and understand that, so this enormously strong reaction I get puzzles me.  I am wondering if it's more to do with what I see as her rejection of me again - I feel that underlies everything she's done.  She didn't like me as I was, and that's why she made my life difficult.  Most people, after thirteen years of estrangement, would have let water pass under the bridge by now.  There's still no interest from her in how we're doing, whether life is treating us well, whether I'd be interested in trying to have some sort of relationship.  She's still in this weird place of "Tupp keeps trying to get away - I'll make sure she knows she can't".  Which is just fucked up, and I wonder if the fact that she's still rejecting me so completely is what gives me such a strong reaction.  Not sure but will look in to it more. 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 03, 2019, 11:34:29 AM
That's a good insight, Tupp.
That it's not fear of her power to mess up your life any more as much as it is hurt over her longterm rejection.

Well, if you do see her, you could revert to just saying the truth, even if you sit in public streaming tears and she acts cold as an icicle about it. The truth would still be the truth. For that matter, you could pick some place like a public garden or beachside bench -- for YOUR comfort and ease (if that's what would feel better).

I think Facebook is utterly toxic and have never done it. But my advice for the people who react like idiots is to instantly Hide them (or whatever it's called) so you never see other posts by those individuals again. Should one send you a DM (if that's what it's called)  you can say, Oh yes, I had to Mute you since I found your political comments upsetting. But in the meantime, blissful peace....

You can filter anybody you need to, hon. You're in the driver's seat and you have every right to fill your world with people who are kind.

love and comfort,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 03, 2019, 12:00:44 PM
That's a good insight, Tupp.
That it's not fear of her power to mess up your life any more as much as it is hurt over her longterm rejection.

Well, if you do see her, you could revert to just saying the truth, even if you sit in public streaming tears and she acts cold as an icicle about it. The truth would still be the truth. For that matter, you could pick some place like a public garden or beachside bench -- for YOUR comfort and ease (if that's what would feel better).

I think Facebook is utterly toxic and have never done it. But my advice for the people who react like idiots is to instantly Hide them (or whatever it's called) so you never see other posts by those individuals again. Should one send you a DM (if that's what it's called)  you can say, Oh yes, I had to Mute you since I found your political comments upsetting. But in the meantime, blissful peace....

You can filter anybody you need to, hon. You're in the driver's seat and you have every right to fill your world with people who are kind.

love and comfort,
Hops

Thanks, Hops :)  I won't be seeing my mum (at least not willingly!).  I don't want people who make me feel like this in my life.  I'm in a new place with new opportunities, new people, new places to explore, and that's where I need to look, not backwards or over my shoulder the whole time.  I had to cancel a meeting I was supposed to go to today with the lady who runs the support group - she's very proactive and has been setting up meetings with all sorts of local service providers to work on improving services and so on.  I just felt it was too much for me today, told her honestly what was going on and she was just so lovely, can she do anything, anytime I want tea and a chat just shout, do I need her to have son for a while, if my step-dad turns up do I want her to send her husband over - she was just lovely.  And another friend, who is in this area (also a newer one) immediately offered us a caravan on her farm, either for a holiday or to live if we need to get away from here.  "Come and stay, we'll look after you", she said.  Those are the sort of people I need to be focusing on, not my blooming mum or my gossipy friends and relatives or the ones who don't bother to call when they know I'm struggling.  I'm still focusing too much of my time in the wrong direction so I must keep working to redirect myself.  Only today, we've been out to run some errands.  Two shops for supplies for son - lovely friendly people working in them, nice brief chats with both.  Funny moment when I stopped to let someone on a mobility scooter cross the road - turned out there were loads of them and they all kept appearing from behind a hedge, it just looked funny, as if the hedge were spewing them out :)  Took son for a haircut, lovely barber, really friendly with a constant stream of daft jokes that son loves.  Health food shop, lovely lady and it always smells so lovely in there.  Charity shop, two friendly assistants and I picked up a beautiful patterned valance sheet to cover the boring beige base of my bed, £5! (about six dollars, I think).  And had an enormously helpful man at the doctors surgery this morning sort out a problem with son's meds for me, so efficient and helpful and has passed all the info on to the GP so that next time we go in it's already written up and I don't need to do anything.  So there are all these good people (I've got you guys as well!) and I must focus on that and not the blooming numpties of the past.

And yes, Facebook is a place where I should have practised much stronger bounders, I've set up a new account and just moved across the half a dozen people I know who I like to chat and catch up with and who have similar views to mine.  I should have done that a long time ago.  So it's kind of settling again, I just find it difficult because it all throws me off my stride so quickly and sometimes I struggle to find a path to walk down again :)  But getting there now, going to do a bit of yoga before dinner and then might head to the bath to read :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 03, 2019, 03:15:27 PM
Oh, your last post had me swooning.  Such a lovely day filled with lovely people, Tupp. 

There are choices, much if the time, about what we focus on.  Yes, please, more joy, more laughter, more seeeeing beauty.

About the little neighbor girl....do you think this kindness circles back around to your experience with refuge, and heals young Tupp, along with providing shelter for this child?  Not sure about that question, but it makes sense for me.

The island is OK as far as I know.  No word today, so maybe electric out. 

Remember to play music you love.  Humm.  Cold water rinse after shower, and to breath when your biology is hijacked.

You can take back your physical safety, and emotional peace.  Sometimes I think we wait for permission, or for things to feel better.  This isn't a passive endeavor, ime.  Banishing the voices.  Taking back the spaces they occupy is hard work, but people do it.  You can do it.  We all can.

So ride the waves, and expect ups and downs as things plane out. 

Maybe tell your sister only things you want you mum to hear....meaning misdirection, and confusing untruths....maybe a bit of humor.

I love the idea of visiting friends and receiving support.....call friend's I if you feel vulnerable.  Go check out that caravan when mum is expected.  Let your friends feed you, and I know you'll feed them back.

New reciprocal fellowship, YES, please!

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 05, 2019, 03:47:58 AM
Oh, your last post had me swooning.  Such a lovely day filled with lovely people, Tupp. 

There are choices, much if the time, about what we focus on.  Yes, please, more joy, more laughter, more seeeeing beauty.

About the little neighbor girl....do you think this kindness circles back around to your experience with refuge, and heals young Tupp, along with providing shelter for this child?  Not sure about that question, but it makes sense for me.

The island is OK as far as I know.  No word today, so maybe electric out. 

Remember to play music you love.  Humm.  Cold water rinse after shower, and to breath when your biology is hijacked.

You can take back your physical safety, and emotional peace.  Sometimes I think we wait for permission, or for things to feel better.  This isn't a passive endeavor, ime.  Banishing the voices.  Taking back the spaces they occupy is hard work, but people do it.  You can do it.  We all can.

So ride the waves, and expect ups and downs as things plane out. 

Maybe tell your sister only things you want you mum to hear....meaning misdirection, and confusing untruths....maybe a bit of humor.

I love the idea of visiting friends and receiving support.....call friend's I if you feel vulnerable.  Go check out that caravan when mum is expected.  Let your friends feed you, and I know you'll feed them back.

New reciprocal fellowship, YES, please!

Lighter

Lighter, I'm glad the island is unscathed and hope that is still the case now.  Such devastation, it's so frightening.

I think with the little girl - she's very cute but also very active, very loud, doesn't understand personal space and so on.  The other kids aren't keen on her, they're quite kind and let her join in but it often ends in an argument or her being mean to one of them or vice versa.  I get from the other kids that home life isn't great and another sibling might be in care?  I don't know how accurate it all is but she feels like a little lost soul to me.  My friend's parents, as a child, who used to let me sit round theirs, gave me a security and stability that I didn't understand or appreciate until I was a lot older.  Probably not until I had my own son, to be honest.  I'd like to think that maybe one day there will be a woman who looks back and remembers the single mum on her road who used to let her sit in the kitchen and do drawing and thinks of it as a nice memory.  There is something to little Tupp there now.  What's come up for me over the last year as I've looked into care options for my son is the huge difference between care in terms of someone making sure you eat and take your meds, and care from someone who loves you.  There have been very few people in my life who I have felt genuinely cared about me and I feel with son that I am the only person in his life who genuinely cares.  And knowing how hard I've found it to be surrounded by people who don't care, I kind of feel it's important to maybe be that person to someone else, even if it's only for a few minutes?  Does that make sense?  It's a bit early lol.

Yep, nice people about, I'm trying to focus on that now, and on myself, looking after myself, listening to my body, not pushing myself too much.  Son starts back to college next week, I've organised reducing his timetable so that should help.

I read something yesterday - a meme on Facebook - that said no-one's coming to rescue you.  You have to do it yourself, through self love and making good decisions.  Making good decisions is something I really need to focus on as most of my coping mechanisms are unhealthy and if I don't have stress and drama in my life there's just a big empty hole.  So I need to try to work on that.

Contact with sis is minimal now, I'm just done with the past, I think.  I want a new life with positive, proactive people and people who'll support me, just by not causing me headaches and stress, you know.  A lot of people from my past are very caught up in drama, as I used to be, and I just don't want that anymore.  I want calm.  I think we might go and have a working holiday at the friends' farm - just go for a few days and help them out a bit.  Their boy and my son get on well, I can take his go kart and they can bomb up and down the track through the mud together :)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 06, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
Right, I've got two new ideas I'm going to try.

I wake up feeling angry, stressed, not terribly well rested and usually mid argument about something legal or educational in my head - it's like all the stress and anxiety kind of pours out during the night and I wake up in a big puddle of it.  I've tried various ways of starting the day but nothing seems to have helped long term.  So my new idea is to try and spend the evening de-stressing - yoga, warm bath, reading, something light hobby wise - sewing or jewellery or something like that, or even a bit of de-cluttering, which I find relaxing - and see if that makes me wake up in a better mood.  First night of trying it tonight so I'll let you know how it goes.

The other thing I tried today was to re-focus my negative, repetitive thoughts onto more positive matters.  I'm not good with the law of attraction stuff, but this morning when I found myself endlessly running and re-running all the negatives about a friend I feel hasn't been a great friend recently I switched it to talking to myself about a really good friend of mine, as if I were describing her to someone new.  Then I did that with another friend, then with you guys on here, then I went through random people I've met over the last couple of weeks who've been nice.  That seemed to help so I'm going to keep trying to do that.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 06, 2019, 04:41:11 PM
That did make sense, Tupp.  And the little girl likely has no idea what a boundary IS, honestly.  She might benefit from having a lovely maternal spirit in her life draw pictures of what healthy boundaries are, and how we breath to get hold of our emotions so we get more of what we want, and create healthy lives for ourselves.

No pressure there, but darnit, maybe we were all that little girl, of a sort, and maybe we've all met her too.  I wonder about the little lessons, that are actually VERY IMPORTANT, if we'd been introduced in our young lives.  JUst pointed in a direction, or had a door opened to information we wouldn't become aware of till we were full arse grown, kwim?

I think dropping allll the people who keep you mired is a good plan, Tupp.   I think moving ahead, and not looking back.... giving yourself permission to let the past go..... is amazing and freeing, and I'm trying to do that too.  Even your sister.... for reasons she can't control.  For reasons you can't control.  Release her with love.  Because you have to, for your own good. 

(((Tupp))) Trying new things, to break that negative waking pattern, sounds healthy, and proactive to me.  You're moving out of old patterns, TUPP!  Yes.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 07, 2019, 04:53:08 AM
That did make sense, Tupp.  And the little girl likely has no idea what a boundary IS, honestly.  She might benefit from having a lovely maternal spirit in her life draw pictures of what healthy boundaries are, and how we breath to get hold of our emotions so we get more of what we want, and create healthy lives for ourselves.

No pressure there, but darnit, maybe we were all that little girl, of a sort, and maybe we've all met her too.  I wonder about the little lessons, that are actually VERY IMPORTANT, if we'd been introduced in our young lives.  JUst pointed in a direction, or had a door opened to information we wouldn't become aware of till we were full arse grown, kwim?

I think dropping allll the people who keep you mired is a good plan, Tupp.   I think moving ahead, and not looking back.... giving yourself permission to let the past go..... is amazing and freeing, and I'm trying to do that too.  Even your sister.... for reasons she can't control.  For reasons you can't control.  Release her with love.  Because you have to, for your own good. 

(((Tupp))) Trying new things, to break that negative waking pattern, sounds healthy, and proactive to me.  You're moving out of old patterns, TUPP!  Yes.

Lighter

Lighter, when I look back over my life I can see so many times when someone has just said or done something kind - often just an off-hand thing, not a huge deal to them, but years later I could see how that was very significant and poignant for me.  The friend's parents, who I've mentioned before, and a teacher at junior school who told me how sorry she was that my dad had died.  No-one mentioned my dad after he died.  I think that was the way back then, people didn't talk about things, particularly with kids.  She offered me her condolences, in the school playground, the way a grown up would, and it's just stuck with me ever since as being the right thing to do.  I'm not even sure why, but it meant something to me.  So yep, if that little one wants to come round and draw or tell me about her new bike then that's fine by me, it would be nice to think it would help in some small way.

Yes, new habits!  I did wake up feeling less stressed than I normally do.  Not completely without stress and I did find my mind wandering to negative things quite quickly, but I got it back fairly well.  I can feel my neck and shoulders are knotted up so the plan for today is some time at the beach after son's sports sessions, a nice dinner and then I might aim for an evening of yoga?  And see how I get on.

Son's speech therapy and occupational therapy have finally been organised.  It still isn't the right amount but it's in place at last so I can carry on working on the personal budget plan and include that in it now.  I've reduced his college hours (I might have already said that - sorry!) which should make life easier for us.  The speech therapist is open to working with me so that I can carry on with what she does at home, don't know about the occupational therapist yet.

What I do notice is difficult is that, without stress or drama or constant adrenalin surges, there's a big empty space.  I find that difficult, very draining and it affects my mood.  So I think I'm just going to have to work on accepting that there will be a gap between leaving high stress people, situations, circumstances etc and having a healthy and fulfilling life that I find enjoyable and satisfying.  There's going to be a lull between the two so I'm just going to have to keep it in mind and not get too freaked out by it xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 07, 2019, 09:21:50 AM
Wow, I think that last paragraph was HUGE, Tupp. Realizing that calm, which you aspire to, is actually uncomfortable.

That's such an opportunity. To see what eternal adrenaline has been about. Not just that it happens, but what is it substituting for?

I don't know a lot about how trauma works. But I wonder if feeling perennial anger, frustration and negativity keep the stillness away. Because in stillness, the trauma might resurface. I don't know if that's accurate, I'm just guessing. (And you have ACTUAL stress, big stress, it's not like you're manufacturing it. Waking up with it every day, though, says .... too much.)

It would be so wonderful to have a safe space with a skilled, kind T you trust, where you could release and talk through a lot of it, once a week. Maybe then you could wake up in peace, no matter what the day brings.

big hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 07, 2019, 10:54:10 AM
I understand... and I'm not sure why it IS what it is, but it just is discomfort with the quiet bits.

Whether it's dread of getting thrown back into chaos, which is worse if I DO manage to relax, finally, and believe things will be OK... or if it's that PAT thing the T spoke about.... Pleasure Affect Tolerance?

I guess you take notice, stay curious, and go back to basics.... breathing, yoga, beach, social contact. 

At some point the quiet won't feel so strange.  It becomes familiar, right?

Keep breathing your way through it, and train your brain...... it's OK.  No reason to get anxious, or avoid, or find distractions.  It's OK. 

::nodding::.

What becomes habit, becomes pleasure.

20 - 60 days to form new patterns.  This too shall pass.

Lighter



Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 07, 2019, 01:24:02 PM
Wow, I think that last paragraph was HUGE, Tupp. Realizing that calm, which you aspire to, is actually uncomfortable.

That's such an opportunity. To see what eternal adrenaline has been about. Not just that it happens, but what is it substituting for?

I don't know a lot about how trauma works. But I wonder if feeling perennial anger, frustration and negativity keep the stillness away. Because in stillness, the trauma might resurface. I don't know if that's accurate, I'm just guessing. (And you have ACTUAL stress, big stress, it's not like you're manufacturing it. Waking up with it every day, though, says .... too much.)

It would be so wonderful to have a safe space with a skilled, kind T you trust, where you could release and talk through a lot of it, once a week. Maybe then you could wake up in peace, no matter what the day brings.

big hugs,
Hops

Yes I think that's it Hops, part of it with me (I think) is if I'm at a point now where I can't blame (or don't want to keep blaming) my situation on other people, for whatever reason, it then becomes down to me to do something useful or meaningful with my life.  And I think I find that quite scary - lack of confidence or something, I guess.  Am I good enough to do something useful?  The lack of people in my life is down to the problems I have with maintaining relationships - I just find it really hard work and if I'm honest I can't be bothered to make a lot of effort a lot of the time.  Co-dependence suited me, it meant I could busy myself with other people's stuff and avoid dealing with my own, then moan when they didn't need or want me anymore.  It's more of a risk to have a relationship with someone that's just based on them liking you enough to spend time with you, rather than doing it because you run round after them all the time.  So I think I'm just at a point where I've got rid of a lot of the old stuff but I haven't filled the spaces with new, good stuff yet.  And I want to do that slowly so that I don't just find myself back in the same situations again another couple of years down the road (which has happened before!).  And the space inbetween is difficult to manage.  But today was a good day!  So I think it will be alright :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 07, 2019, 01:30:40 PM
I understand... and I'm not sure why it IS what it is, but it just is discomfort with the quiet bits.

Whether it's dread of getting thrown back into chaos, which is worse if I DO manage to relax, finally, and believe things will be OK... or if it's that PAT thing the T spoke about.... Pleasure Affect Tolerance?

I guess you take notice, stay curious, and go back to basics.... breathing, yoga, beach, social contact. 

At some point the quiet won't feel so strange.  It becomes familiar, right?

Keep breathing your way through it, and train your brain...... it's OK.  No reason to get anxious, or avoid, or find distractions.  It's OK. 

::nodding::.

What becomes habit, becomes pleasure.

20 - 60 days to form new patterns.  This too shall pass.

Lighter
 
I think that's it, Lighter, keep walking new paths until they become familiar paths.  I'm going to keep focusing on my health and keeping life orderly and calm as much as possible and just keep trying to make good choices.  I've told sis I don't want to hear about mum again, whatever she may or may not be doing, and I think I'll keep contact with her now to Christmas and birthdays.  Same with friends from the past as well.  It's time to move on and just not keep dealing with this stuff all the time!  It's too tiring.  There are more enjoyable ways to feel tired :) Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 07, 2019, 02:11:22 PM
I think healthier people make these types of healthier decisions
all
the
time.

I don't think they have the same fear,  guilt and shame pressuring them to continue relationships, and situations that are unhealthy. Maybe they do. I just know that we have control over decisions we make daily, and switching to the best possible choice will have implications we can't imagine, but will be proud of. 

One day at a time.  One decision at a time.  It ads up.  Think about the bad things we've become accustomed to.

We can get used to feeling better, and having less strife in our lives, can't we?

I'm sure we can.

Its getting beyond the discomfort.   That familiar old discomfort that usually pushes us into decisions that won't get us more of what we want, but dispells discomfort in the moment. 

This moment has to be endured, and overcome to get beyond old patterns. 

We can do that.  I notice I'm calmer, generally, as I continue practicing breathing, and cultivating positive moments.  It's easier to get back on track. 

Lighter
 

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 08, 2019, 02:33:53 AM
I think healthier people make these types of healthier decisions
all
the
time.

I don't think they have the same fear,  guilt and shame pressuring them to continue relationships, and situations that are unhealthy. Maybe they do. I just know that we have control over decisions we make daily, and switching to the best possible choice will have implications we can't imagine, but will be proud of. 

One day at a time.  One decision at a time.  It ads up.  Think about the bad things we've become accustomed to.

We can get used to feeling better, and having less strife in our lives, can't we?

I'm sure we can.

Its getting beyond the discomfort.   That familiar old discomfort that usually pushes us into decisions that won't get us more of what we want, but dispells discomfort in the moment. 

This moment has to be endured, and overcome to get beyond old patterns. 

We can do that.  I notice I'm calmer, generally, as I continue practicing breathing, and cultivating positive moments.  It's easier to get back on track. 

Lighter

Nodding, Lighter, all the way through, yes, I think some people just make decisions that are in their best interests as a matter of course.  They don't have the same baggage to deal with and aren't mired down by generations of unresolved angst.  I do feel I'm getting better at at least pausing before I decide what to do next instead of just reacting and responding.  That's starting to become apparent now.

The relaxing before bed didn't seem to work last night; I did my yoga and we'd had a nice day doing sport in the afternoon and chatting to people so nothing unpleasant to work through.  Woke up at 1am feeling like I wanted to punch someone and then had a very odd dream; the cat leapt into shark infested waters and I leapt in to get her out (very peculiar, our cat is so lazy she doesn't leap anywhere and why would there be sharks in the river?? lol, how odd).  And then somehow I was back on dry land trying to balance my diary to make an arrangement to meet a group of people and I had to keep re-arranging my appointments to try to fit it all in, and then ended up paying for everyone's coffee.  It was very strange and I woke feeling quite unsettled.  But I will stick with it!  Hopefully it's just stuff working its way out and eventually, surely, I will get to a point where I'm not overloaded with goodness knows what and I can wake up feeling like I've had a good sleep. 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 08, 2019, 02:39:37 PM
I try to remember pushing on walls when BIG feelings to BE ACTIVE come up for me.  Instead of doing doing doing, I want to push push push, then see how I feel.  DO I feel calmer?  Do I feel things can be resolved without running around doing what I've always done, that gets me nothing I truly want?

I'm pretty sure toxins will keep coming up as we process the junk, Tupp.  I think you're right to take it in stride, and keep working at it.  Things will get better, then worse, then better, then worse... I guess.

::sigh::.

I keep breathing, and that's no so hard to remember.   I feel like I'm adding fat to pathways I want to strengthen and build.  Starving the pathways I want to get rid of.   Every little bit moves me along.  And it's OK, even when it's not OK.  My nervous system seems to be calmer, and more resilient.  That's great right?

It doesn't feel like I'm dead inside either, lol. It feels like I have more time to process before fight or flight runs me over.  That's what it feels like.

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 08, 2019, 05:59:45 PM
Tupp, you have SO much mature and rational insight into who you are, your own makeup, and how you work...that once again, you blew me away.

There is NO WAY that this much self-insight is not going to pay off for you, ultimately.

Just
no
way.

I have such faith in you, and so much respect for how honestly and deeply you think!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 09, 2019, 11:45:40 AM
Hops and Lighter, thank you :)  Lighter, for some reason I find that clapping my hands together seems to break a little pattern for me?  I don't know why but it seems to help stop things spinning.  Hops, I never feel like I have rational insight, lol, I always feel like I'm just muddling through :)  But it's nice to read that so thank you :)

I have noticed some things today (Lighter, I am being observant) and I have made some efforts to be clearer with other people (Hops, that's down to you :) ).

First day back to college.  Taking son later is a help.  We got everything he needed ready last night to avoid rushing this morning and I made his packed lunch as getting him to do that is stressful and I don't want stress in the mornings now, so that went okay.  The drive in is always a bit stressful, just because the roads are busy.  We got there and son had forgotten his drink, despite my reminding him twice and me saying "Have you got your drink?"  as we left the house and him saying "yes".  This is the kind of stuff that is problematic for me.  Because of his problems, I can't just say, "tough, you'll have to manage without".  There's only one thing he will drink and it has to be in a particular water bottle (with a straw) or he can't manage it.  He can't go to the food hall on his own to buy something else and they don't have the staff to take him so he'd have to go without.  If he gets dehydrated it increases the risk of a seizure.  So it's one of those things where I just had to go home and fetch it for him and take it back to college.

What I noticed was the physical reaction to the stress, and it was very quick.  My left shoulder popped.  Then pain started up my neck and across the side of my head.  My jaw started to feel very painful, as if someone had punched me.  My gum line (under my teeth) started to throb on that side of my face and then the headache started.  I started to feel sick, then anxious, then came the chest pains.  It all happened in a matter of seconds and within a few minutes I felt like I could just go home and go back to bed for the day.  I had stuff I needed to do but couldn't face the thought of all the people in town, so drove to the next town along which is smaller and quieter so I did what I needed to do there instead.

I think I need to keep trying to do the yoga to keep my neck and jaw relaxed and hope that helps.  I'm not sure if the acupuncturist can do something to try to stop that instant reaction from coming.  It was so fast and so sudden.  I did try deep breathing and to focus on other things but it didn't seem to do anything much (maybe it stopped it from getting worse, it's always hard to know with that sort of stuff).  But it did show me that my reaction to stress is a very physical one and it comes from external stress, rather than internal.

So that was the first thing.  I did my stuff I needed to do and then messaged a friend who lives nearby; this is one of the ones I've been upset about not hearing from much when I was going through my bad spell over the summer.  We have talked and cleared the air a bit and Hops, I think you are right about having to not have an expectation and accepting people as they are for who they are.  She is a good friend in other ways; I think part of the problem is my lack of boundaries and the fact that I often let her talk endlessly about various problems that other people she knows are going through.  I need to work on that and I did interrupt a couple of times today and changed the subject so that worked well.  I also realised that one of the reasons I don't like seeing people when I feel down is that I worry I will snap or be unkind as I feel very intolerant.  I think perhaps I ought to just be honest and say I'd like to meet up but I'm not feeling great so will apologise if I'm snappy or impatient.  That might be better; they can say they'd rather wait until I'm in a better mood then if they want to and I won't feel like I've got to try to pretend I'm in a better place than I really am.  So yes, that went well, I feel better for it and I feel more positive about being here than I have for quite a long time really.  I'm just going to keep working on myself; I think the thing for me to remember is to prioritise the people who are around when I'm in a bad place and not let other people monopolise my time or energy (boundaries again).  I think if I focus on that it will help and I'll cope better next time things fall apart a bit and I fall into a bit of a pit xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 09, 2019, 01:04:48 PM
Quote
perhaps I ought to just be honest and say I'd like to meet up but I'm not feeling great so will apologise if I'm snappy or impatient.

That sounds PERFECT, Tupp! Honest, vulnerable, human. Not even complicated.
I always appreciate it so much when someone's simply open about how they're doing. It helps me remember I am also always allowed to be real. I don't have to orchestrate someone else's response to me -- I can just be real.

It can be just as simple as your good example. You let the other person make their own choice, and just take responsibility for yours.

I really love your example because it invites the possibility of just being real for you both, acknowledges that both of you are human (you because of how you're feeling, and also her, because you're respecting it'll be her choice depending on how she is feeling herself). I get it. I feel so appreciated when someone trusts me with their simple truth instead of an act.

It's not magic, and doesn't change people necessarily. But it makes relationships so much simpler. If just being real is something that a particular person can't or doesn't respond to well, that's helpful information. But if, even in small ways, they do respond well (or with realness of their own, even briefly)...that's a good sign.

Bravo, you!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 12, 2019, 08:53:34 AM
Quote
perhaps I ought to just be honest and say I'd like to meet up but I'm not feeling great so will apologise if I'm snappy or impatient.

That sounds PERFECT, Tupp! Honest, vulnerable, human. Not even complicated.
I always appreciate it so much when someone's simply open about how they're doing. It helps me remember I am also always allowed to be real. I don't have to orchestrate someone else's response to me -- I can just be real.

It can be just as simple as your good example. You let the other person make their own choice, and just take responsibility for yours.

I really love your example because it invites the possibility of just being real for you both, acknowledges that both of you are human (you because of how you're feeling, and also her, because you're respecting it'll be her choice depending on how she is feeling herself). I get it. I feel so appreciated when someone trusts me with their simple truth instead of an act.

It's not magic, and doesn't change people necessarily. But it makes relationships so much simpler. If just being real is something that a particular person can't or doesn't respond to well, that's helpful information. But if, even in small ways, they do respond well (or with realness of their own, even briefly)...that's a good sign.

Bravo, you!

Hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops.  I think part of me still feels like I need permission to speak about myself?  It's quite weird, but when I was talking to the friend I saw earlier in the week, she was talking about another friend who'd been 'triggered' by something someone had said something about her ex and how it had taken her a week to get over it - and she understood that.  And it was a revelation to me, because the main reason I've not felt comfortable seeing her is because she tells me all about the abusive man dramas she's surrounded by and that triggers me - and takes me a week to get over it.  And I don't say anything, I just sit home on my own feeling lousy and ruminating on it all.  So I've got to start being clearer with people, even if I do keep repeating myself and I feel like a broken record.

I've realised as well that being around people really has potential to make me exhausted and I'm going to have to find a way to manage that.  College has been exhausting, even with the reduced timetable, and son is already struggling.  I think realistically we really need to be in a situation where he's mostly at home and we have just one or two people involved in helping him out, so that we can all be doing the same thing.  College is just to chaotic for either of us to manage.

The group yesterday was great and I'm helping one of the mums with her social services assessment.  I'm really enjoying going and I'm enjoying helping her out.  But the group was very busy, everyone was talking at the same time and there were two 'speakers' in doing different things and again, all talking at the same time.  Alongside that another mum was talking about all the problems she's having with her son and one of the dads has just had his son taken into care, so he wanted to talk as well.  So I'm wondering if what I need to do is perhaps look into doing voluntary work with an organisation, rather than through an informal group like that.  I love helping out parents who're in the same situations I've been in in the past.  The mum I've been helping is a single parent, her son has complex needs and she's just muddled through on her own, like me.  She was so appreciative of the help and I can remember going home from situations where someone helped me with a form or explained something to me and the feeling of relief was always so immense that I really want to do more of that, to help other people.  But I think perhaps it needs to be through a formal organisation so that it's a booked appointment and one person at a time, rather than half the county all at once, which was too much.  So that's where things are at the minute.  I think I need to find a way to balance out what I want to do without getting to overwhelmed or too over involved in too many other things at once.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 13, 2019, 09:10:59 AM
I can see why, (((Tupp))).

I think for anyone with even a toe on the spectrum or who is naturally introverted or has something like ADD, an event like that could feel overstimulating and exhausting. Is there any chance you could explain that to the organizers very simply, and ask if a booth or curtained space might be set up -- or simply explain that you'd like a quiet corner where you can help just one person at a time?

It wouldn't be a complicated arrangement, or shouldn't have to be....and maybe it'd be nice to retain your connection with nice folks you've met instead of having to give up on the group?

Just a thought, may or may not make sense for you.

Big hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 13, 2019, 01:38:43 PM
I can see why, (((Tupp))).

I think for anyone with even a toe on the spectrum or who is naturally introverted or has something like ADD, an event like that could feel overstimulating and exhausting. Is there any chance you could explain that to the organizers very simply, and ask if a booth or curtained space might be set up -- or simply explain that you'd like a quiet corner where you can help just one person at a time?

It wouldn't be a complicated arrangement, or shouldn't have to be....and maybe it'd be nice to retain your connection with nice folks you've met instead of having to give up on the group?

Just a thought, may or may not make sense for you.

Big hugs
Hops

That's a good idea, Hops.  I think, as the lady who set the group up hasn't done this before, it's all still sort of unfolding as we go along.  Privacy is an issue as well; obviously people need to talk but some things need to be discussed in private and there isn't really a private space there.  I think there were just too many different things happening that day and it was a bit much.  I will talk to her about it; the idea is to provide informal support but I think even within that there needs to be some sort of system in place so that there aren't too many things going on at the same time.

What I have really noticed this week is how much external situations stress me out, and much more than would ordinarily be expected.  So I think I need to work about being really rigorous at setting boundaries, saying no and focusing on healthy habits.  I think I should go and see the GP again and discuss whether I ought to be assessed for autism myself and possibly PTSD.  There are definitely symptoms of both but I would guess that one might be the cause of everything I'm experiencing.  I don't feel that a diagnosis does much to help (it hasn't in my son's situation) but I wonder if it might mean I stop analysing what's going on with me quite so much if I know it definitely is or isn't something in particular.  I'll think about it some more.  Things generally don't feel too bad at the moment though, which is good.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 13, 2019, 05:15:21 PM
That's a great idea, Tupp.
Knowledge is power. And sometimes having an actual explanation for something unique about your system or how you function is really helpful.

When I was diagnosed with ADD, huge weights of shame just poured off me. I hadn't realized how much self-criticism and pain had come from a simple neurological difference--why I struggled with some things other people didn't appear to. I was in deep frustration for years, trying to turn myself into something I wasn't, rather than learning how to adapt to and accomodate my own particular brain.

It's a very good brain and I'm lucky to have it. But it ain't quite like everybody else's. That's okay with me now, and I understand myself so much better and with much less shame.

Small idea: If that group meets in one big large space, a simple way to manage this would be to ask for one table and two chairs. Set the table up a good distance from a wall and set the chairs at a comfortable "privacy distance" behind it and off center, facing each other, not the table. Put a BIG NOTE on the table, folded to stand up:
Please wait until a chair is free--happy to help you next! [smiley face]

Big hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 13, 2019, 08:51:32 PM
Echoing Hops here.  Maybe set up a waiting area some distance away from your private area, Tupp.

Hear hear to asking for what you want and need, Tupp.  Learning to casually say NO, sans feeling bad about it....some day soon.

::nodding::

Soon.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 15, 2019, 06:42:35 AM
Thank you both.  I've been thinking a lot more about my codependence issues over the weekend and I realised I really do need to make more of an effort to do more for myself and son before I start worrying about other people, for whatever reason.  I really must sort out the rest of this paperwork and get some sort of money spinning activity set up for the two of us.  So I need to be careful to make sure I look after us before I look after anyone else now x
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 15, 2019, 09:33:33 AM
Self-care is Job ONE, for sure, Tupp!

Is it possible to "help" folks at these meetings but build in self-care boundaries at the same time? Like -- "I can tell you about this or that, or suggest going in that direction as it's been helpful to me, or whatever .... I won't be able to do X or Y for you, but I can tell you how I made progress on Z....." Does that sound realistic? I hope so but only you can assess it, or try it to find out.

Just don't want you to feel you have to choose between participating in community life or making friends versus living your own responsible life. Just really want you to know you deserve both, and with simple boundaries, getting more comfortable saying simple Yeses and Nos, you can have them.

You're a hero, Tupp. Heroes need both too.

Big hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 15, 2019, 11:24:57 AM
Self-care is Job ONE, for sure, Tupp!

Is it possible to "help" folks at these meetings but build in self-care boundaries at the same time? Like -- "I can tell you about this or that, or suggest going in that direction as it's been helpful to me, or whatever .... I won't be able to do X or Y for you, but I can tell you how I made progress on Z....." Does that sound realistic? I hope so but only you can assess it, or try it to find out.

Just don't want you to feel you have to choose between participating in community life or making friends versus living your own responsible life. Just really want you to know you deserve both, and with simple boundaries, getting more comfortable saying simple Yeses and Nos, you can have them.

You're a hero, Tupp. Heroes need both too.

Big hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops :)  I think I can do both.  I think I need to practise thinking before I act or speak.  I have a tendency to immediately soothe, whether it's myself or someone else, rather than tolerating discomfort for a while so that a longer term response is more appropriate, if that makes sense?  I also don't want to fall into the routine of endlessly comforting people who don't help themselves.  As an example, two people I spoke with last week were in completely different situations.  One is working hard to change things, keep all the balls in the air, try to do her best for her child whilst keeping a bit of a life for herself as well.  Another is in a similarly tough situation and has been for years but has done very little to change the situation, preferring to wait for outside agencies to do everything for them and then being upset with the action the outside agencies have finally taken (which, in my opinion could have been avoided had the parent been more proactive and tried more approaches themself).  I prefer to help the first parent who just needs a bit of a hand with the form filling and knowing the language to use when dealing with the system rather than listening to the second one, who is justifiably upset but still doing very little to change the situations.  So I think I just need to be careful where I put my energy - energy into helping people help themselves (including me), yes, energy into absorbing other people's problems, no.  I find that too tiring and that impacts on what I can do for myself then so I need to find the line and stick to it.  So I think it's doable, I think what I find hard is knowing that saying no or saying what you think does sometimes mean upsetting people and that's the bit I struggle with so I need to find a way to make that less of a problem for myself, and probably to organise my time better so that I can be more efficient with myself and make sure I build in my own time and avoid getting too tired.  And I think I need to crack on with this mountain of paperwork again, I keep putting it off but it needs to be done and got out of the way, finally, so we can get on with other, more enjoyable things that we both want to do.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 15, 2019, 11:51:34 AM
Hi Tupp:

We're better able to care for, and help others when we're taking care of ourselves. 

We're more resilient when we're rested and have our needs met.

We're more responsive and able to apply creativity to our efforts.

Today I learned a little calming exercise involving the parasympathetic nervous system.  We place our hands over our eyes, and press between our eyes, then press down around our ears, behind our ears, then back into the hollow where our spine meets skull..... massaging a bit.  Then down the neck and shoulders... massaging shoulders one at a time if necessary. Then place our hands over our throats, protectively, very lightly.  Then our hearts.  Then our solar plexus.  Then hands in lap.

We do all this while breathing deeply in through the nose, and out through the mouth. 

It's helps calm us down before making decisions.  We can go through a short version in public before answering more autentically. 

It gives us a chance to center and calm our biology, while allowing our intuition to kick in, and guide us.

I'm all about listening to gut instincts right now. 

BTW, did you know the parasympathetic nervous system (PSNV) runs from our forehead, down our faces, into our heart, lungs, and digestive tracts?  THAT's a huge bundle of nerves!  It's also running along our meridian system, which runs from the top of the head down the front, and around to the lower back, or the root chakra. 

WOmen have 9 times more tolerance for pain than men, and codependents have more than other people.

::nodding::.

Lighter


 

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 15, 2019, 07:44:38 PM
I love that calming exercise, Lighter.
Just READING it felt good.

Thanks!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 16, 2019, 06:06:13 AM
Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 16, 2019, 06:43:28 AM
Ooh ladies, I'm on a roll!  Received another text, from a friend, who often texts to moan about her daughter's school.  There are a lot of problems and she's a very dear friend but I find that I give advice, quote sections of Education Law, tell her groups to contact to help her sort problem out - and she never does.  So I started to text back the relevant info after looking it up online for her and then thought, no, she is perfectly capable of doing this herself if she wants to, it took me two minutes to find it online, so I deleted what I had written and just wrote back that I hoped it got sorted soon and to have a lovely day.  We can be friends without me running round pulling up info for her, right?  Had a very bad night's sleep last night so I am back off to bed for a couple of hours before picking son up from college later :)  night night :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 16, 2019, 11:21:33 AM
Wow, Tupp, I am IMPRESSED.
REALLY impressed!

You observed the inner over-alarm, engaged the boundary idea,
communicated your needs calmly, and .... voila! I'm awed.

And the friend texting about her daughter's education issues.
I GET THIS! I have a dear friend also who texts me simple questions
that are easily answered on Google, and I tend to instantly look it up.
That happens a lot. I usually think 'well, I google everything anyway'
so don't really mind...but sometimes I think, what is she thinking when
she asks it? Probably: enjoyable dialogue. Or just: connect by asking a
question, as she's too tired for other talk. I think sometimes it's that.

One thing I do sometimes as a compromise is enter a to-me-obvious
search term, see if some decent-looking results pop up, and then forward
her the link to the entire search, just in case she's having difficulty figuring
out how to ask the query. With education law, I don't know if there's a
portal link where she could begin her own search, but it's a possibility....

In my example, she doesn't do it often, so it's not a serious annoyance.
But it's a great example of how to work within oneself to check on the
leap-to-fix impulse, which I know I have in spades. See above. Busted!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 16, 2019, 12:31:33 PM
Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.

Simply making a statement.... I'll be home tonight or tomorrow.... is better than making excuses, avoiding, or feeling guilty over something we haven't done, and aren't responsible for.

I think many of us feel responsible, and guilty all the time.  It's a low thrumming through our lives we've gotten used to, and don't notice,  till we stop, and pay attention, like you did here. 

I sent you a few things in your PM box that seem applicable. 

Honestly, just noticing the feelings are creating chemical dumps.  Becoming aware of them is pretty scary.... sometimes I feel so snowed and mired very deeply, I'm afraid i won't be able to dig myself all the way out,  Now, that's fear based thinking, and I want to quiet that too.

Lordy, I'll get there: )

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 16, 2019, 12:34:06 PM
I love that calming exercise, Lighter.
Just READING it felt good.

Thanks!

Hugs
Hops

You're welcome, Hops.  I went through it today.  I want to come up with a quick version I can do in public.  I remember a nice fellow I used to date used to do something like that when he was really under pressure.  It sort of ended in a quick snap of his hand, like he was shaking something off his hand.   It's funny how the body does things to calm itself without understanding why it's doing it.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 17, 2019, 08:54:40 AM
Wow, Tupp, I am IMPRESSED.
REALLY impressed!

You observed the inner over-alarm, engaged the boundary idea,
communicated your needs calmly, and .... voila! I'm awed.

And the friend texting about her daughter's education issues.
I GET THIS! I have a dear friend also who texts me simple questions
that are easily answered on Google, and I tend to instantly look it up.
That happens a lot. I usually think 'well, I google everything anyway'
so don't really mind...but sometimes I think, what is she thinking when
she asks it? Probably: enjoyable dialogue. Or just: connect by asking a
question, as she's too tired for other talk. I think sometimes it's that.

One thing I do sometimes as a compromise is enter a to-me-obvious
search term, see if some decent-looking results pop up, and then forward
her the link to the entire search, just in case she's having difficulty figuring
out how to ask the query. With education law, I don't know if there's a
portal link where she could begin her own search, but it's a possibility....

In my example, she doesn't do it often, so it's not a serious annoyance.
But it's a great example of how to work within oneself to check on the
leap-to-fix impulse, which I know I have in spades. See above. Busted!

Hugs
Hops

Lol, thanks, Hops :)  Yes, your friend situation is similar and like you, this friend probably isn't actually asking for me to do anything for her, it's just my go to default whenever I hear someone having a problem.  Years ago a T told me that by constantly jumping in to 'do' for others I was denying them the opportunity to learn for themselves and develop their own skills.  Which is absolutely true.  I think, like your friend, this one is just describing what's going on and do you know what, that probably applies to a lot of people I know, they don't want a fix, they just want a moan.  Which sometimes is okay and sometimes isn't, so we can choose whether or not we listen.  Depends on what else we've got to do, I guess?  And what sort of mood we're in?  But same friend has messaged today, situation is ongoing and friend has decided to leave it as she feels it's not worth chasing so I think there is that difference between people asking for help and people just thinking out loud and maybe I need to check more which of the two it is :) 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 17, 2019, 09:03:58 AM
Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.

Simply making a statement.... I'll be home tonight or tomorrow.... is better than making excuses, avoiding, or feeling guilty over something we haven't done, and aren't responsible for.

I think many of us feel responsible, and guilty all the time.  It's a low thrumming through our lives we've gotten used to, and don't notice,  till we stop, and pay attention, like you did here. 

I sent you a few things in your PM box that seem applicable. 

Honestly, just noticing the feelings are creating chemical dumps.  Becoming aware of them is pretty scary.... sometimes I feel so snowed and mired very deeply, I'm afraid i won't be able to dig myself all the way out,  Now, that's fear based thinking, and I want to quiet that too.

Lordy, I'll get there: )

Lighter

Thanks for that, Lighter, I'll have a look through them all.  And yes, the chemical dumps are hard to cope with.  I've spoken to the group lady now, it was just an admin thing she wanted to check with me and make sure I was happy with it.  I've got to try really hard to just not try to figure out what someone might say before they say it!  I guess I've just been bamboozled so many times now with unexpected responses and suddenly had things like solicitor's letters or child protection reports shoved in to my hand that the fear response just kicks in quicker than anything else.

I'm trying to deal with my paperwork better as well.  I've had two big jobs to sort out that have been bothering me.  One turned out to take only ten minutes and the other turned out to take no time at all because, having read it properly, it doesn't apply to us anyway so I've just binned it.  I think perhaps I need to make more of an effort to read things properly and categorise them instead of assuming that all paperwork is important and/or time consuming.  That bit's been hanging over me all week and it's taken less than twenty minutes to cross both jobs off the list.

In other news, we had a doctor's appointment this morning that made me very anxious - again, it's just an instinctive reaction now, I could feel the panic building in the waiting room.  I did deep breathing but didn't feel less anxious, but as soon as we're in the office and I was explaining the situation the anxiety went away.  It's the unknown, I think.  The doctor was friendly and helpful and has basically said "do what you think is best" (this is in relation to a problem with son's meds) which for me is the best kind of advice so I felt the appointment went well.  I do feel stressed now, I can feel it up in my shoulders, so I'm going to break to do some yoga and try to get back to a sense of calm before collecting son from college.

On another note, I am feeling that there is a big lump of hatred lodged in me somewhere.  I can't quite explain it, but I wake up in the mornings thinking "I hate this life", before I'm even properly awake.  It's like it floods out through the night.  I'm going to have to try to shift that somehow, I don't think it's healthy.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 17, 2019, 06:41:55 PM
Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.

Simply making a statement.... I'll be home tonight or tomorrow.... is better than making excuses, avoiding, or feeling guilty over something we haven't done, and aren't responsible for.

I think many of us feel responsible, and guilty all the time.  It's a low thrumming through our lives we've gotten used to, and don't notice,  till we stop, and pay attention, like you did here. 

I sent you a few things in your PM box that seem applicable. 

Honestly, just noticing the feelings are creating chemical dumps.  Becoming aware of them is pretty scary.... sometimes I feel so snowed and mired very deeply, I'm afraid i won't be able to dig myself all the way out,  Now, that's fear based thinking, and I want to quiet that too.

Lordy, I'll get there: )

Lighter

Thanks for that, Lighter, I'll have a look through them all.  And yes, the chemical dumps are hard to cope with.  I've spoken to the group lady now, it was just an admin thing she wanted to check with me and make sure I was happy with it.  I've got to try really hard to just not try to figure out what someone might say before they say it!  I guess I've just been bamboozled so many times now with unexpected responses and suddenly had things like solicitor's letters or child protection reports shoved in to my hand that the fear response just kicks in quicker than anything else.

I'm trying to deal with my paperwork better as well.  I've had two big jobs to sort out that have been bothering me.  One turned out to take only ten minutes and the other turned out to take no time at all because, having read it properly, it doesn't apply to us anyway so I've just binned it.  I think perhaps I need to make more of an effort to read things properly and categorise them instead of assuming that all paperwork is important and/or time consuming.  That bit's been hanging over me all week and it's taken less than twenty minutes to cross both jobs off the list.

In other news, we had a doctor's appointment this morning that made me very anxious - again, it's just an instinctive reaction now, I could feel the panic building in the waiting room.  I did deep breathing but didn't feel less anxious, but as soon as we're in the office and I was explaining the situation the anxiety went away.  It's the unknown, I think. I think it IS the unknown, but also that's one of those times, maybe, where pushing on a wall, gargling BIG, or walking backwards while breathing, would be helpful.  Sometimes DOING is necessary, and I forget that.  I hope you try one of those,  and report back.  The doctor was friendly and helpful and has basically said "do what you think is best" (this is in relation to a problem with son's meds) which for me is the best kind of advice so I felt the appointment went well.  YAY! I do feel stressed now, I can feel it up in my shoulders, so I'm going to break to do some yoga and try to get back to a sense of calm before collecting son from college. 

On another note, I am feeling that there is a big lump of hatred lodged in me somewhere. I'd imagine there are several hate filled bubbles, my dear.  I can't quite explain it, but I wake up in the mornings thinking "I hate this life", before I'm even properly awake.  I don't know how you wouldn't have that thrumming through your brain pan, considering the last 15 years, Tupp.   It's natural, and I so want you to feel better too. THe past is a big heavy wet sucking thing, and it takes mindful action to look at it, deal with it, make friends with it then set it aside in peace, IME    It's like it floods out through the night.  I'm going to have to try to shift that somehow, I don't think it's healthy.  I think you've been learning HOW to shift it.   Now you're identifying it, and preparing to deal with it. 

That's how you transition into feeling better, IME.  One layer at a time, and there are many layers.  We do well not to judge, but just keep looking toward the next thing that comes up... when they show up, they're asking for attention, IME.  They aren't trying to overwhelm us, or drown us... it's how they present, and let us know it's time to do that work, IME. 

Sometimes it can seem scary, and humans try to avoid pain at all costs,  but I think it can be exciting too, bc we also understand spending time looking at the painful stuff is how we get past it.
 I think you've come so far, I just want to make sure you take time, pat yourself on the back, and recognize how amazing you are.  Now that you're practicing yoga, working on mindfulness, and new coping strategies.... you'll keep snowballing into feeling better, and better as you work through the layers.  The more you practice, the easier it gets.  The more familier, the more often you default in favor of positive choices, kwim?

I see it so clearly for you, and that helps me see it for me too (((Tupp.))) 

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 18, 2019, 09:20:34 AM
Thanks, Lighter :)  I think it is a constant process of evolution or stripping off the layers, isn't it?  Different things to try and practise, repeat, new habits to form and so on.

I do feel exhausted today.  Chemical dump, I think, as you mention in one of the threads.  Stress from seeing doctor, stress of dropping son off at college and picking him up again - I feel like I leave him at the door, rush around for a few hours and then collect him again.  It doesn't feel good to me.  We went out last night, to watch an opera at the cinema and it was amazing.  I felt like a human for a couple of hours, completely engaged in the set design and the incredible talent in the singing, whilst not understanding a word (they have subtitles but it kind of spoils it, I don't think it translates well from the Italian!  The singing sounds beautiful and the translation is kind of clunky and doesn't roll in the same way.  So not understanding it and just listening suits me :) ).

Trying to drink more water.  Group today - not sure how to proceed or what to do.  We had a training session booked, which I've been booked onto for months, but had so much else to do today, felt so tired and son is starting to flag that I cancelled the place I'd booked (just for myself, everyone else still went).  The admin task that the earlier calls and emails were about still needed to be done (I just had to sign something) so I went in just for an hour this afternoon to do that and say hi.

Lady had changed her mind about doing the forms today so hadn't brought them in.  Not the end of the world, but I only went in to sign them (as per our previous conversations) so if I'd known we weren't doing it I wouldn't have gone in at all (and could have taken a nap before picking son up which may have helped).  Stayed for a coffee but even with only about eight people there the noise level is just too much for me.  Everyone's sitting in a group talking at once and so the noise level just goes up and up.  It's informal so people just sit where they want.  The people either side of me were telling me all about their health problems, in tandem.  I was only in there about half an hour in the end but felt so overwhelmed that I've come out with a headache brewing, stiff shoulders and a general feeling of exhaustion.  So I'm really not sure how to play this and how best to move forward.  I'm not in next week anyway so it gives me a bit of time to think.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 18, 2019, 12:18:06 PM
However in the world will be figure out boundaries, put them in place, and somehow find comfort behind them,  Tupp?

I reallhy want you to creatively solve your privacy problem in the group, and keep the positives you've found there.  Can you borrow an office, or even a hallway for your one on one meetings?  Maybe even put up one of those tri fold cardboard things kids use for projects at school... sitting on the table between you and the rest of the group.  Yu could put a sign on it with instructions....
PUT YOUR NAME ON THE LIST BELOW THEN WAIT TILL YOUR NAME IS CALLED.... something.

I'm noticing how my energy invites people to talk AT me,  and overshare, and that really robs the joy out of things that should bring joy... like dropping off a basket of food to post op neighbors.

 I just can't solve their problems with meds that aren't doing the trick with pain, and if they won't consider doing something, like askig the doc for a med that actually works, then I need to go on my way.  Does talking about it help?  I'm sure it does,  but it's too draining to get trapped for too long, and not know how to end it without feeling bad.  It's a double whammy bc I get drained the beat myself up for not having better boundaries, then have a harder time problem solving from that negative head space.

I should think up better boundaries, and have them ready to deploy proactively.... so I don't have to think when I'm in the thick of being talked at  or trapped.  I can just DO that thing I thought of ahead, and know it's better for everyone all the way around. 

Yup yup yup.

Good luck figuring out how to handle the group, Tupp.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 18, 2019, 02:01:23 PM
However in the world will be figure out boundaries, put them in place, and somehow find comfort behind them,  Tupp?

I reallhy want you to creatively solve your privacy problem in the group, and keep the positives you've found there.  Can you borrow an office, or even a hallway for your one on one meetings?  Maybe even put up one of those tri fold cardboard things kids use for projects at school... sitting on the table between you and the rest of the group.  Yu could put a sign on it with instructions....
PUT YOUR NAME ON THE LIST BELOW THEN WAIT TILL YOUR NAME IS CALLED.... something.

I'm noticing how my energy invites people to talk AT me,  and overshare, and that really robs the joy out of things that should bring joy... like dropping off a basket of food to post op neighbors.

 I just can't solve their problems with meds that aren't doing the trick with pain, and if they won't consider doing something, like askig the doc for a med that actually works, then I need to go on my way.  Does talking about it help?  I'm sure it does,  but it's too draining to get trapped for too long, and not know how to end it without feeling bad.  It's a double whammy bc I get drained the beat myself up for not having better boundaries, then have a harder time problem solving from that negative head space.

I should think up better boundaries, and have them ready to deploy proactively.... so I don't have to think when I'm in the thick of being talked at  or trapped.  I can just DO that thing I thought of ahead, and know it's better for everyone all the way around. 

Yup yup yup.

Good luck figuring out how to handle the group, Tupp.

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter.  The problem this morning was that I wasn't there with an advice giving hat on, it was just a coffee morning type thing - and the people talking at me weren't after advice, they were just talking at me.  Which I find tiring.  Some people wouldn't.  Like you, I find people do seem to just give me their life stories without any prompting - I don't know why!  And yes, it's hard to have boundaries in every situation, because situations just appear or can change quickly whilst you're in them, so sometimes you have to react fast and that's difficult to do.  I was tired anyway, which of course makes everything seem worse too.  It will sort itself out somehow, I'm sure.

In other news - the friend I resisted seeking information for earlier in the week texted me today to say she'd sorted the problem out and it was all dealt with :)  So me not sticking my nose in was defo the best idea.  I think I need to stop feeling so responsible for everyone else.  But because I've had so many situations where I've felt so alone and so desperate I hate thinking of anyone else feeling like that, which is why I think I jump in too quickly.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 18, 2019, 10:09:40 PM
It's going to be a difficult mind shift, Tupp.  Finding comfort and being OK with letting people find their own way.  Just listening, for a brief time, then breaking off, with love... breaking off without offering advice and help, and allowing space for folks to solve their own problems.  THat's a tricky one bc, for us I think, it carries the potential of not being accepted/supported/protected in a group ALONG with feeling like we're letting down someone who's struggling in ways we've struggled when we really needed help.  Just generalizing here, but I think I get what you were saying, and understand it, at least the bigger pieces. .

My ex SIL used to do this nodding shaking head thing that wasn't a yes or a no... a rolling head thing, while she listened.  I've used it, and it makes me feel like I'm responding appropriately with less desire to jump in, and solve problems for people, which is my default.

It's not my usual reaction, and just mindfully choosing something different seems to change up my patterns, in other words.

And I also think we put out signals, particularly to people who seek out good listeners/fixers.  I've always been a good secret keeper, and I don't want to be that anymore, not for everyone at any rate.

When I was a 9 or 10 yo child I remember my best friend's father telling me things about his marriage, and sexlife that no child should have to listen to.  He didn't DO anything towards me he was just lonely and needed to talk to someone, and we were in the car for hours.  I'm sure I said zippo to that, and I think he just chattered like a monkey the entire trip. THAT has been how things have gone since I can remember.

Last week a neighbor, who's talked about very personal things with me, and actually asked out my married sister, always tells me I'm a great listener.  The truth is, I'd never ever ever tell him anything personal about myself, and listening is safer for me.   I do enjoy talking to him about our dogs, the yard, the bears, the forest, the rain run off, the weather, and different things I'm working on with energy work, etc, but the intimate stuff is uncomfortable.  He's very helpful, and now that I know he asked out my sister,  maybe too helpful. 

I'm going to be careful not to pull up my drawbridge, which is something I typically do when feeling this way.  I'm going to try to come up with ways to discourage too much information, but lets light connection flow. 

I don't honestly know how to DO that right now. 

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 19, 2019, 05:24:39 AM
Lighter, that is the thing, isn't it - how do we keep ourselves open to possibilties of good encounters and interactions, new people, new places, but also avoid our energy being drained by people who aren't deliberately trying to be draining, but who none the less leave us feeling tired and displaced from ourselves.

And perhaps it's the displacement that's the problem.  I love being around people who are into self help, healthy living, reading, outdoor activities and so on.  I enjoy the company of people with a bit of knowledge behind them - not necessarily academic, but just someone a bit open minded, whose experiences in life have encouraged them to dig a bit deeper.  I don't feel like that when I'm with people who tend to just talk about themselves and their own day to day minutia.

And then there's the guilt.  I have you guys to talk to.  I feel guilty that other people don't have this level of awesomeness in their lives!  But then I think, well I found you guys because I was having counselling and reading books about toxic parenting, childhood abuse, narcissism and so on.  Then I went looking on the internet for more info and found a forum, which I joined.  Someone on that forum mentioned this one and that is how I found my way here.  I was actively looking for answers and for ways to change.  And perhaps that's the key - there are people who search and people who wait to be found, or have everything done for them, or who don't want to change but like to complain about where they're at.  Am I responsible for those people.  No.  Do I feel responsible for those people.  Yes.  That's the tricky bit for me.

Perhaps it is more about slowing down and focusing more on myself.  I'm thinking in terms of the group at the moment.  Perhaps I should wait until the day it runs to see how I feel and see whether I want to go in or not.  Perhaps, if I do go in, I should sit slightly apart, on my own.  I don't do that, because I feel it looks aloof and standoffish.  But perhaps I should do that initially and take a bit of time to watch and then perhaps take a bit more care over choosing who to sit next to.  It feels quite a lot of work - and even a bit manipulative?  or selfish?  I'm not sure, something weird is coming up - but perhaps ten minutes like that at the start would help avoid needing two days to recover afterwards?  What do you think? xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 19, 2019, 11:00:19 AM
Still practising boundary setting and self care.  Was so exhausted this morning the effort of getting out of bed felt monumental.  We were supposed to do various things after collecting son from college (early finish today).  I cancelled, explained to son we'd do them another day and took to the sofa.  Son's repetitive habits intensify when he's tired or stressed and are currently through the roof.  It's tiring for both of us.  So we both need a break.  Nap was achieved :)  Neighbour popped round to borrow strimmer.  She has two young (very cute) children.  I opened my mouth to offer to sit them while she cuts the grass  (see?  I do it to myself, I don't even wait to be asked, I just jump in there).  And then I thought, Tupp, you need to rest, lady is very nice and has partner/other family who can help if need be.  Shush yourself.  So I closed my mouth again, showed her how to use the strimmer and left her to it.

Lady from group has messaged again, having re-written all the paperwork that we've already agreed on and wants to meet up to go through all the new paperwork again.  I have said I'm busy now until next week but I'm sure it's all fine and she could just send it off without it being checked again (she writes very well so it won't need re-writing and even if it did, I've just offered to help out, it's no skin off my nose if it's terribly badly written).  I am mindful that she's learning this as she goes so mistakes are inevitable.  I'm also mindful that some people do like to have a constant whirlwind of activity going on around them, self created or otherwise.  I'm also mindful that THIS ISN'T MY BAG SO I DON'T NEED TO PICK IT UP.  I feel like I need to shout it at myself so that I remember.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 19, 2019, 05:03:28 PM
Just jotting things down as I notice them.

Stress has a huge effect on me, and is affecting me hugely at the moment.  I am in the hormonal phase of my cycle, which intensifies things, but I had far fewer problems with that over the summer holiday, because the external stress was missing.

So - stressful events have been - college - just taking him there and back every day stresses me out.  I don't want him there and I don't think he's particularly enjoying it now either.
Seeing doctor - even though the appointment went well, the stress of going near a doctor was there and has had an effect.  I have booked up appointments for myself as well but again, the thought of it alone is enough to make me feel anxious.
Group and/or people chopping and changing appointments - smaller levels of stress with that but enough to make an impact.
Practising boundaries - I do find it stressful, even though I want to do it.
Loneliness - cripples me now, but equally I find being around people stressful.  The only option seems to be (at the moment, anyway) staying home quietly until the physical symptoms pass.  I couldn't tolerate anyone near me at the moment, even having the light on feels too much.

It's interesting because it seems to me that just not having control over my own timetable causes me stress (autism trait? or just easier to manage?  don't know) so just having to arrange my day around college is difficult.  Then the other things on top have made it increase and I think what's hard is that I'm having to cope with more stress but I've got less time to do stress relieving things because of the time I'm spending doing stressful things.  Mmmm.  Will have to keep noticing and pondering until some ideas become clear.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 19, 2019, 09:22:18 PM
I think you're coping amazingly, Tupp.

When you stop beating yourself up and just make whatever daily adjustments you
need to make, in order to get through that day with less emotional exhaustion, you're doing more than a whole lot of hopelessly dysfunctional people do!

From my friends who are mildly on the spectrum, I recognize a powerful commitment to timelines, logical arrangements, and things not being changed willy-nilly. I think it's difficult to just "go with the flow" and adjust your approach to things in mid-air. Or, I can't imagine that WOULDN'T be difficult!

For that reason, dear, you awe me more than ever. That you have dealt with all you deal with with such grace and at times transcendent common sense, is miraculous.

DO rest up, be nice to yourself, and don't worry about perfection or tight control of every task or challenge. Ain't no such thing.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 20, 2019, 01:14:53 PM
I think you're coping amazingly, Tupp.

When you stop beating yourself up and just make whatever daily adjustments you
need to make, in order to get through that day with less emotional exhaustion, you're doing more than a whole lot of hopelessly dysfunctional people do!

From my friends who are mildly on the spectrum, I recognize a powerful commitment to timelines, logical arrangements, and things not being changed willy-nilly. I think it's difficult to just "go with the flow" and adjust your approach to things in mid-air. Or, I can't imagine that WOULDN'T be difficult!

For that reason, dear, you awe me more than ever. That you have dealt with all you deal with with such grace and at times transcendent common sense, is miraculous.

DO rest up, be nice to yourself, and don't worry about perfection or tight control of every task or challenge. Ain't no such thing.

Hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops.  I think daily adjustments is the way to go forward, and maybe even that I need to stop arranging anything non-essential in advance for now so that I can decide each day what I feel up to doing.  It's difficult with son's needs being what they are to chop and change anything around and yes, I find it difficult for me as well because I get my head into 'this is what we're doing' mode and I just don't have the energy any more to come up with a plan B.  So I think I need to keep practising my boundaries.  Group lady wanted me to go round to sign papers again; I waited until today to message her back and said I have some time on Monday so we've arranged it for then.  Purposely didn't drop what I was doing to accommodate.  Feels odd but I know it's right.  Similarly, a friend texted with a problem she's having, I resisted offering to help.  I need to keep my focus on my health, son's health and I need to start earning some money so I really do need to start being more ruthless with my time and keep the best of it for me.

In other news - I had one of those lightbulb moments today when I realised, really realised, that people treating me badly is a reflection of them, not me.  People have said that to me before, I've read it in various places but I didn't really feel it until today.  Don't know why, the penny just dropped all of a sudden.  I've felt for years that something I do attracts certain kinds of experiences and people to me.  But it doesn't.  There are a lot of messed up people in the world and when they do thoughtless or unpleasant stuff it's about them, not me.  I've just got to focus more on me and get myself into a better place where I'm naturally coming into contact with people who don't have as much baggage to offload onto someone else :)

My feet hurt :)  Lol, you know it's been a busy day when your feet are pounding when you take your shoes off :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 20, 2019, 01:49:39 PM
Hi Tupp:

I wanted to post back about that reflexive offer to help.

That's something I do, and I'm trying to stop doing it reflexively, give myself a bit of time to breathe, then see if I really have the time, and resources.... I'd like to be able to ask myself if it's appropriate if it's something that will bring me more of what I want, etc.

The last thing you said, about people treating you badly is about  THEM, not YOU....
HUGE bit of information there! 

It's easier to process IF we're not feeling it reflects on US, for sure.

Elevate those tired feet, and drink plenty of water.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 20, 2019, 03:45:13 PM
Hi Tupp:

I wanted to post back about that reflexive offer to help.

That's something I do, and I'm trying to stop doing it reflexively, give myself a bit of time to breathe, then see if I really have the time, and resources.... I'd like to be able to ask myself if it's appropriate if it's something that will bring me more of what I want, etc.

The last thing you said, about people treating you badly is about  THEM, not YOU....
HUGE bit of information there! 

It's easier to process IF we're not feeling it reflects on US, for sure.

Elevate those tired feet, and drink plenty of water.

Lighter

Ha ha, I'm just heading off for an Epsom Salts bath :)  Yes the reflex is so strong, and yet very few people have that reflex with me?  It's a funny thing that I've noticed, I'm very conscious of the fact that when I'm having a bad time very few (real life) people offer to help, yet it's the first thing I do with just about everyone.  And I do need to stop.  If I'm honest I don't have time to help anybody else out, ever!  I don't want to get completely to a point where I never do anyone a favour but I have got to start being more honest with myself about what I can do and whether I need to do it.  I think we need to think about what constantly offering to help says about us?  I think with me it's low self esteem, a desire to please and be thought of as 'good', and not to be the reason someone feels alone or unwanted.  It's hard, isn't it?  I think I need to be more honest with people about my own situation.  It sort of doesn't occur to me that saying, "I've got no help myself so I'm sorry but I can't offer to do anything for you" is actually alright?  I need to practise more lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 20, 2019, 03:53:24 PM
Yes, yay, HUGE info!

For me key line:
Quote
Purposely didn't drop what I was doing to accommodate.  Feels odd but I know it's right.

Soooo cool. What I read here is that you have allowed that the feelings ("odd" = "discomfort") do not get to run the show, because you're also trusting your reason (what you know). You are actually quite rational, and the rational truth is --- when we practice a different response to our usual emotional-trigger, repetition of not letting feeling always rule = the eventual change in the feelings. How long is "eventual"? DON'T GIVE UP when from day to day it seems to go backward. See this article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/forming-new-habits_b_5104807. A quote:

Quote
In other words, if you want to set your expectations appropriately, the truth is that it will probably take you anywhere from two months to eight months to build a new behavior into your life -- not 21 days.

Interestingly, the researchers also found that "missing one opportunity to perform the behavior did not materially affect the habit formation process." In other words, it doesn't matter if you mess up every now and then. Building better habits is not an all-or-nothing process.
[/size][/i][/color][/b]

When feelings don't get their way, one DOES become more feeling-comfortable with a new, more rational choice. It just takes time and repetition. Your recent boundary-setting, decisions not to automatically leap to exhaust yourself for unimportant agendas of others....those are just awesome.

Huge thing #2?
Quote
the penny just dropped all of a sudden.  I've felt for years that something I do attracts certain kinds of experiences and people to me.  But it doesn't.

I'm really happy for and about you, Tupp. Even though your feet hurt.

Ohhh, being codependent me, gotta fix that too!

1) Epsom salts in bucket of warm water. [edit: Duh. You just mentioned Epsoms!]
2) Insert feet, 15-20 minutes.
3) Dry and moisturize with lotsa oil.
4) Put on clean cotton socks.
5) Roll feet. (Use a rolling pin, baggie of pencils, whatever's hard and rolls.)

Happily,
Hops



Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 23, 2019, 04:29:34 AM
Lol, thanks, Hops, I didn't know the rolling pin trick!  Will try that next time, thank you :)

Just jotting down what I'm noticing about stress today and how it affects me.

Felt very ill yesterday - awful headache, sick, very tired.  Didn't have anything to do at a set time which is a much better way for me to work - it takes pressure away and means I can concentrate on how I feel, rather than what I need to do.  Did yoga frequently throughout the day, drank lots of water, ate regularly and relaxed in the evening and woke up this morning feeling a lot better than I did when I went to bed.

Got up and did yoga, had breakfast, drank water - and felt lots of anger start to surface.  I am wondering if I store anger (repress it?), and if that makes me tense, headachey, sick etc.  Then the yoga and relaxation stuff starts to let the anger out.  Maybe.

It's Monday so I needed to get on with the work stuff that I avoided all weekend so that I could have a break.  Have an ongoing email problem that hasn't been resolved, that is only in relation to the email system the local authority insist we use because it's 'secure'.  So secure I haven't been able to access any emails for a fortnight so information I need to my meeting this week is still unavailable for me.  That makes me start to feel angry, and stressed (other people causing work).  Then my mind snowballs, so fast.  Friend hasn't replied to a text all week, sister messaged me to say mum is telling people she's coming to visit me, I wish we hadn't moved, we need to leave the country, I haven't got any money, his dad never supported him - it floods through in seconds and is so hard to stop.  The noise from the barking dog next door is incessant at this point, as is the noise from the washing machine and son's screeching that he tends to do when he gets up in the morning.  I'm assuming the extra stress increases noise sensitivity but I don't know.  My urge is to drink tea and eat biscuits - which seems to numb me a bit and make me start to calm down?  I'm not sure why that is but they are two things I'm trying to avoid too much of at the moment because of the sugar and caffeine.  So craving them because I'm having less of them?  Or craving them because the chemical reactions of the sugar and caffeine will numb my brain a bit and make everything easier to cope with?  I'm not sure.  Will have to keep observing and see what comes up.

Stomach is very painful now, neck and shoulders very sore (particularly left shoulder) and chest pains have started.  Will do yoga when I get home later to try to wind everything back down again but honestly guys, I feel like I just want to go and live in the middle of nowhere with nothing but books and an army of pets around me.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 23, 2019, 10:37:43 AM
Morning anger > stress mounting > noise > pain.

How horrid, Tupp. I wish your sensitivity to noise-stress (can't imagine what it does to Son) could qualify to get you on a list for different housing. I can't imagine how stressful this is for you. Just READING it made my shoulders tighten!

I remember when you first moved, there was a plan to be in the house for six months (because you knew it wasn't pleasant or spacious enough) and then move to a better one. Are you still on the list for a change in housing? Or was the information you were given about how the process worked in your new city incorrect?

As to your sister, did you ever manage to say plainly to her: Do Not Mention mother to me. At all. It triggers me into a bad state of stress. (And then if she ignores that request, block her.) I thought that was the plan...

I'm so sorry Tupp. I wish I could help.

Sending comfort, courage (well, you already have that, champion level) and calm...

Hugs
Hops

PS I also think of how incredibly helpful your post would be to a T. Hand it over, give them a few minutes to read it. Can't imagine how meanginful that would be. You write so well that one understands instantly all you're trying to cope with. And then the T can direct the session very intentionally into what might help.

Can you still access a T? You deserve that concentrated help.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 23, 2019, 11:53:14 AM
Morning anger > stress mounting > noise > pain.

How horrid, Tupp. I wish your sensitivity to noise-stress (can't imagine what it does to Son) could qualify to get you on a list for different housing. I can't imagine how stressful this is for you. Just READING it made my shoulders tighten!

I remember when you first moved, there was a plan to be in the house for six months (because you knew it wasn't pleasant or spacious enough) and then move to a better one. Are you still on the list for a change in housing? Or was the information you were given about how the process worked in your new city incorrect?

As to your sister, did you ever manage to say plainly to her: Do Not Mention mother to me. At all. It triggers me into a bad state of stress. (And then if she ignores that request, block her.) I thought that was the plan...

I'm so sorry Tupp. I wish I could help.

Sending comfort, courage (well, you already have that, champion level) and calm...

Hugs
Hops

PS I also think of how incredibly helpful your post would be to a T. Hand it over, give them a few minutes to read it. Can't imagine how meanginful that would be. You write so well that one understands instantly all you're trying to cope with. And then the T can direct the session very intentionally into what might help.

Can you still access a T? You deserve that concentrated help.

Thanks, Hops :) The original plan to move again in six months was based on my assumption that I'd be working again once son started college.  That hasn't happened (at the moment I feel even further away from working than I did before!) so that's caused a money problem.  We're on the list for housing but it's a very long one.  I could start getting doctor's letters about stress, noise etc but it's a slightly dangerous game to play because once you get past a certain point of need you lose the right to choose.  They offer you a place and you either have to take it or go to the bottom of the list again.  So we might get offered a place sooner but it could be in a worse area, or up several flights of stairs, or not allow pets.  So it's a bit of a gamble.  I have learnt my lesson and absolutely don't want to move anywhere now where I'm making do because I don't want to be fed up with it again in a matter of months so we're probably better off waiting until I'm earning again and we can choose somewhere nice - but we'll stay on the housing list in the meantime and something might come up before then anyway.

Sis and I did talk about my mum but I did decide that I would prefer to know if she's circling the area.  I thought about it and decided I feel calmer knowing she 'might' be around than never knowing when it might be so I've asked her to tell me if she knows she's down this way.  It does still trigger me; I think anything about my mum will still trigger me.  But we don't really talk about anything else to do with her now.  The possible bonus of her coming down here is that, if I know in advance next time, I could go back up there to catch up with old friends knowing she's away :)  Lol, that would work well for me :)

No T, I can't afford one at the minute and to be honest the last few I've been to have put me off (as Dr G writes about in his book!).  None seem to understand my son's situation and I've felt they take the view that I'm overprotective of him.  I remember the last one telling me he wouldn't be in education for ever, which is true, but he will be disabled forever and so will always need education in one form or another - we all do, really.  But his education does need to be specific to him and she didn't seem to understand that.  So that frustration of explaining things and not being 'heard' (again, as Dr G writes about) really bothers me and sets me back quite a way.  I also feel that a lot of counseling now, at least here in the UK, is very centred on mindfulness, positive thinking and all that sort of thing which again, as we've talked about on here, often feels like victim blaming and to me is teaching people to tolerate abusive relationships by changing their responses to abusive behaviour, which I think is wrong.  (My thinking here is that dealing with the Local Authority is like being in an abusive relationship - the gaslighting, deceit, tacit abuse of disabled children by denying them education, healthcare and so on).  So I don't think parents should be taught how to cope with that; to me that's like teaching a battered wife how to curl up to protect herself from a beating and I think it's wrong.  So I don't think therapy is really for me anymore.  Have done it on and off for twenty years and certainly in the early days it helped a lot.  But these days I think I get much more sense out of all of you than I do from a therapist and you all know my background so I don't have to explain it every time :)

You do help :)  You all help, so much, more than I can ever put in to words.  I can never say how grateful I am for this forum, it is my rock in a mad world :) xx xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 24, 2019, 04:14:50 AM
Just posting as I think of things again :)

Stress is clearly an issue but I am managing it better and I am starting to feel that I can see an end in sight :)  I've started working on the Personal Budget for son (this is what will mean I can carry on getting educational support for him at home and go back to organising a lot of the work for him myself).  It is a lot of work to get the budget in place (the paperwork is phenomenal) but I've found some good sources of support, have printed loads of stuff off the internet and have a meeting with someone this week to get advice and get the ball rolling at my end.  There's also no rush for it now - I work with him at home regardless, so if this isn't in place when he finishes college it won't make a huge difference, I'll just do it anyway.  It will just mean me forking out for things he needs rather than the local authority paying for them but I've done that all his life anyway so it will work.  Feel like we have a Plan A and a Plan B, which is good.

I have got various complaints I need to organise and put in; the good thing about those is that working through the procedures for the Personal Budget will mean I do a lot of work for the complaints at the same time (as the complaints are about people not following procedure).  So it feels manageable now, which is good.

I am nearing a point where I feel I will need to tell friends that I feel let down by them.  The nice lady from group has been reaching out to me for coffee and lunch dates.  I realised that I feel reluctant to put any effort into making friends now.  I don't feel that I judge situations well enough, as is shown by my constant surprise when friends vanish from my life.  I realised that there are two things I want.  The first is to be around people who enjoy my company enough to want to make the effort to have it.  The second is that, during times when my company isn't so great, because of my situation at home, I want people who care enough about me to reach out anyway, even if it's just by text or email, even when I can't see them and am not up to talking to anyone.  It isn't an endless situation in my life - I'm not always down and unapproachable.  But I do feel incredibly let down that over this last six months or so - which quite frankly have been the hardest I have been through - I have friends who not only didn't notice I'd fallen off the cliff, but who also didn't care to take the time to try to help me back up again.  I do feel I'm getting back up again, but it hasn't been down to any of them (it's been down to you guys and a lot of investment in my health and preserving my sanity).  I feel that my anger has lessened.  I'm probably not quite ready to talk to any of them about it yet but I feel like the time is coming when I will need to say something.  I do feel I need to say my bit and I'm not concerned about whether or not they think it's okay.  That's new for me so I'm going to sit with it for a while and see if that feeling stays.

Also feel I need to try and simplify by working on one big thing at a time.  I feel that I constantly need to juggle all the balls all the time.  All aspects of our life need improvement and I feel like I should try to work on everything simultaneously.  It doesn't work, so I feel I need to keep focusing on health (I'm really noticing the difference yoga makes now and am trying very hard to do it morning and evening).  I need to deal with this paperwork, sort son's education plan out and do all these complaints - and then put this very unpleasant phase of our lives behind me.  Then I need to concentrate on getting some sort of income and once that's in place we can start looking for somewhere new to live.  I've seen a beautiful place, a two bedroom cottage with a wood burning stove that's in the middle of nowhere.  Huge garden, absolutely surrounded by fields and only £20 a month more than we pay now (about $25, I think).  There's no way we could move at the minute, just too much else to do and organise, but that's exactly the sort of place that I love so I'm keeping that in mind as my goal, to give me something to focus on.

The other thing that has crossed my mind is whether, once son's educational provision is finished here (age 25), he and I could house sit globally?  I've read about people doing it, just sitting in other people's houses while they holiday or go away for work placements or something like that.  I don't know much about it but it occurred to me that we might be able to travel the world that way.  Might be pie in the sky but it's something else I'll look into in due course.

That's all for now! xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 24, 2019, 10:01:12 AM
Wow, ((((Tupp))).

In addition to big stress, it also keeps striking me that you have big vision.
That you still dream, have deep imagination, and remarkable resilience (as I sit here comfortably with an iota of the load you carry) is incredibly inspiring to me. Thank you. You'll never know how valuable your story here is to others, but I just want to say it.

I SO wish that beautiful cottage could be yours tomorrow. And more.

When I talked about a T I was thinking of the compassionate one you trusted in your previous city. It seems WRONG to me that a person living with all that you carry isn't helped by access (and financially supported access) to a therapist. But if wishes were horses, we'd all be riding.

I am awed by your determination, your courage, and the fact that when you fall or sink, you get up or swim. There's enormous depth to you. You have character where it counts, in spades.

Be proud of yourself today. Truly proud.

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 24, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
Wow, ((((Tupp))).

In addition to big stress, it also keeps striking me that you have big vision.
That you still dream, have deep imagination, and remarkable resilience (as I sit here comfortably with an iota of the load you carry) is incredibly inspiring to me. Thank you. You'll never know how valuable your story here is to others, but I just want to say it.

I SO wish that beautiful cottage could be yours tomorrow. And more.

When I talked about a T I was thinking of the compassionate one you trusted in your previous city. It seems WRONG to me that a person living with all that you carry isn't helped by access (and financially supported access) to a therapist. But if wishes were horses, we'd all be riding.

I am awed by your determination, your courage, and the fact that when you fall or sink, you get up or swim. There's enormous depth to you. You have character where it counts, in spades.

Be proud of yourself today. Truly proud.

hugs
Hops

Thank you, Hops.  I get very down when I don't have a dream.  The thought of my life carrying on like this until I die makes me very depressed.  I need to have something in mind to work towards, even if just in imagination most of the time!  I struggle without a bigger picture to focus on.  And yes, that T from many moons ago was lovely but she is two hundred miles away now and I've not found anyone since who was like her.  I think I'm quite likely to punch the next person who tells me to practise mindfulness which probably won't go down well :)  Lol.

Anyway, I wanted to share with you a public sector experience that kind of epitomises my struggle with them, in one way or another.

When my son was 11, I decided to have him re-assessed, with a view to him attending a special needs school.  You can't get in to one without an assessment so I started contacting private doctors with a view to getting this done.  One of the doctors I contacted used to work at a large Children's Hospital here and advised me to contact them to get the assessment done on the NHS.  I did and they agreed to see him, but I had to get a referral from a local paediatrician.  It took me over a year of fighting local doctors to get a referral in place, and then the waiting list was another year so he was thirteen by the time they assessed him.  They sent me a lot of forms to fill in beforehand, all about his developmental history, birth and so on, and I also sent a copy of every assessment he'd had done to that point, both private and NHS (it was a lot of paperwork).

I also explained that I was a qualified teacher and had given up my career to teach my son at home and sent in quite a detailed explanation of all the child abuse allegations my mum had made over the years, along with a copy of the letter I eventually received from social services in which they admitted all of the information they had used against me was inaccurate and that my version of events was the one that should be taken as being factually accurate.  I included information from well respected domestic abuse organisations here about various types of emotional abuse and how my mum's actions fitted these forms (this is from a domestic abuse group that works with the police and court system and the definitions are part of UK law).

I stated, several times, that I was more than happy to provide more information should they need it, that I had written evidence at home running into hundreds of pages that I was happy to bring with me if need be and that they could verify anything they needed to with the relevant department managers.

To me, I did everything I could to be open, honest, transparent and assist them in their assessment.  We were there for a total of nine hours over three assessments and I was asked no further questions about any of the child abuse stuff or the situation with my mum.  We left with a sixty page report and the consultant repeatedly told me she 'took her hat off to me' ( I don't know if you have the same phrase in the states but here it means someone thinks you're doing a good job).

Fast forward two years and I had some paperwork sent through once we'd started the education application that I'm still battling on with, as son had to be assessed by social services.  Unbeknown to me, the same doctor had made a referral to social services.  I just had a bullet point note in the file so it just read that we'd moved from Place A to Place B (they were both places we'd never even visited, let alone lived in), that my son had never had a proper assessment done (literally hundreds of pages of assessment information on him) and that he'd previously been on the at risk register (absolutely untrue).

Although this was about two years ago I've only just had a chance to start looking into it.  I requested his records from that hospital - the file is just under a thousand pages - and it isn't indexed so I've had to scroll through the entire thing on my computer.  I eventually found the letter the doctor wrote.  She has basically taken the things I wrote in my own explanation that sound damning and missed out all the information that explained and contextualised them.  She's claimed we lived in places we never lived (and that's really weird because our address is all over the paperwork and you have to refer to social workers in that area so she'd have had to have sent it to a county different to the one she claimed we lived in).  She's described my relationship with my mother as 'complex' - despite all of the information I provided that showed it's an abusive relationship, not a complex one.  She's mentioned my mental health difficulties, which I was very open about, but she's chosen to miss out the explanations I gave for conflicting diagnoses, childhood abuse and trauma and the fact that, by that time I'd had no problems at all for nearly a decade.

She claimed that my son was on the Child Protection Register - again ignoring all the information I'd provided to the contrary and essentially has just demonstrated a horrible level of prejudice and a refusal to engage with fact.  I'm perplexed, endlessly, that time and time again I provide honest, factual information that can all be verified and it's ignored and/or manipulated to meet someone else's agenda.  Is that gaslighting?  They all do it.

For the record, no action was taken (which is why I knew nothing about it).  Social services did check, discretely, and found that nothing she stated was true so no action was taken.  I had originally planned to complain but I know all that will happen is a long process which eventually will end in someone telling me I'm right and no action being taken.

It makes me sick, sad and angry that these people are just so blinded by their own views.  At no time has anyone recognised that my son has been abused by his grandmother, not by me.  How do people not see it?  Why did they never investigate the sexual abuse I went through?  Why is it overlooked by every single person?  Time and time again my attempts to get help for my son failed, and time and time again I was blamed for it.  The madness of it frustrates me but I hold on to the glimmer of hope that in six months time we will be out of the clutches of these stupid people.  It can't come soon enough for me.  Sorry to moan but our records are full of things like this, there have been so many people try so hard to find something to pin on me, if only they'd worked as hard to help my son.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 24, 2019, 02:28:46 PM
Ye GODS, Tupp.
Complex, my ass.

This account really did help me understand. I think the volume of pages you provided probably flipped some switch in various bureaucratic heads so they skipped way forward to a familiar, but incomplete, way of "summarizing" you. And son. And family. Damn. I'm sorry.

Question... is it too late to press charges against your stepfather? And...can you request from the courts a legal order of protection from your mother? I think since you have custody now, it's a fairly simple matter.

But I don't know. Might be a comfort to you, now that you're hearing about her hints that she wants to "visit." It sounds to me (with limited knowledge of restraining orders in the U.K.) that it would be a perfect reason for the court to understand why you're asking for it now. If you say you and Son are settled, he's in college, you've worked hard at establishing a stable routine for him, and all those extra activities, etc., and that from your own experience a visit from his grandmother would be massively destabilizing for him (as well as yourself), it's just a rubber stamp?

Hope I'm right but I'm probably not. Just a wish for you.

love and comfort,
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 24, 2019, 03:00:37 PM
Ye GODS, Tupp.
Complex, my ass.

This account really did help me understand. I think the volume of pages you provided probably flipped some switch in various bureaucratic heads so they skipped way forward to a familiar, but incomplete, way of "summarizing" you. And son. And family. Damn. I'm sorry.

Question... is it too late to press charges against your stepfather? And...can you request from the courts a legal order of protection from your mother? I think since you have custody now, it's a fairly simple matter.

But I don't know. Might be a comfort to you, now that you're hearing about her hints that she wants to "visit." It sounds to me (with limited knowledge of restraining orders in the U.K.) that it would be a perfect reason for the court to understand why you're asking for it now. If you say you and Son are settled, he's in college, you've worked hard at establishing a stable routine for him, and all those extra activities, etc., and that from your own experience a visit from his grandmother would be massively destabilizing for him (as well as yourself), it's just a rubber stamp?

Hope I'm right but I'm probably not. Just a wish for you.

love and comfort,
Hops

Thanks Hops.  I didn't mean to ramble on so much, it was just such a clear example.  Time and time again I've given factual, truthful information about my son, my family situation, my mental health and so on - and I'm always doubted and it's always assumed I'm not being honest, despite the mountain of paperwork to back everything up.  My mum lies through her teeth, complete fabrication, not a shred of evidence - and she's believed without question?  What does that say about our safeguarding systems?  Stupid people.  Anyway - I've been out for fish and chips and I'm going to bed with my book and to try out my new mattress!  I got a new one a while ago and it was very hard so they've swapped it for me.  This one feels softer so I'm hoping it will be more comfortable :)

I'm not willing to put myself through the horror of dealing with the police, social services and my family again to try to bring charges against my step-dad.  They treated me like an animal last time and I'm not willing to put myself through it twice.  My statement remains on file so if anyone else reports him they've got a corroborating statement but other than that I'm not going near them.  You can't get a restraining order via Legal Aid in the UK unless there's violence involved and to pay for it costs upwards of ten thousand pounds (probably more now, that was the quote I got about twelve years ago when I was trying to stop her).  Plus other than send him some photographs and a cheque she hasn't done anything for a long time now so there wouldn't be anything to take to court.  My biggest bug bear is with the public sector - they've got procedures to follow and if they'd followed them she'd never have been able to do what she did.  But because they all jump on this 'mother's mentally ill, child's not in school' bandwagon they just create more problems and let the actual abusers get away with it.  Stupid, stupid people.  But never mind.  Bedtime soon :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 24, 2019, 10:08:15 PM
Sorry, Tupp.
I keep stupidly suggestion new interactions with new institutional resources when it's very clear that you've been front and center, have battled those systems all you can bear, and have worked out the sanest and realest position for continuing your own sane life.

YOU know best, and I apologize for dragging forth another exhausting explanation!

I so have much confidence in you. And I'm really happy you've got a new mattress!

Waving magic wand from across the pond...
with big hugs,

Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 25, 2019, 03:40:26 AM
Sorry, Tupp.
I keep stupidly suggestion new interactions with new institutional resources when it's very clear that you've been front and center, have battled those systems all you can bear, and have worked out the sanest and realest position for continuing your own sane life.

YOU know best, and I apologize for dragging forth another exhausting explanation!

I so have much confidence in you. And I'm really happy you've got a new mattress!

Waving magic wand from across the pond...
with big hugs,

Hops

Nothing to apologise for, Hops, I massively appreciate the time and trouble you all go to as I go through my endless ramblings!  And that you care enough to make suggestions; it means a huge amount to me.  And your version of what should happen is what should happen - it's very wrong that it doesn't.  But onwards and upwards and all that.

My new mattress is lush!  My goodness it is comfy, my back is nowhere near as sore this morning :)  I'm using my sun lamp now (the one that replaces the daylight, not the one that gives you a tan) and I am feeling perkier so I think that's helping as well.

Things are definitely calmer.  Having another plan in mind helps me and I'm enjoying working on an education plan for son.  I really like writing schemes of work - I think I should look into whether I can create them for other people and see if that is a way of making a bit of cash?  Worth checking, I do enjoy it.  I'm going to write up a health update today as well; a lot's gone on over the last couple of years.  It is also worth my while checking in with the solicitor again about the medical negligence case - we've tried twice before (as I believe son suffered a brain injury during the birth) and didn't have enough proof either time.  But I've more evidence of his disabilities now so it would be worth contacting the sol to see if it's worth trying again.

Things feel more orderly.  Son does enjoy college but has told me that he prefers being at home.  So I think we can naturally finish at the end of this academic year without any drama, ease in to our own at home programme again and just put all of this behind us :)  I had such high hopes!  Lol, I really thought this was going to make our lives so much easier.

I'm doing yoga everyday; that's helping and has made a difference to my back and jaw pain.  The weather isn't great but I'm enjoying the change in seasons.  I think everything is going to be okay :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on September 25, 2019, 05:35:06 PM
Tupp, it feels so positive to hear you having a calm, sane day where you're doing what you can and experiencing a sensation of peace about that.

That is beautiful. Only 6-8 months more of those kinds of reactions and it'll be your new habitual position toward stuff! (Whatever that article said about habit training, is what I'm referring to.)

You are really an inspiration.

Hugs
Hops

PS Did the comfy mattress help?
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on September 30, 2019, 02:59:40 PM
Tupp, you OK:

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on September 30, 2019, 03:46:45 PM
Tupp, you OK:

Lighter, I'm good, thank you, checking in on posts but need to catch up on what everyone else is doing - lots has been/is going on, there has been a big shift, I think and things are starting to move and settle, will report on progress soon and catch up on all the other threads xx xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 07, 2019, 03:27:14 PM
Hi all, sorry I have not been very active on the board lately; I have got about a million threads to catch up on, you have all been very busy of late!  I hope it is mostly good stuff :)

Things are not great here; I have been feeling like I'm in quick sand and the more I tried to do, the further down I sank.  College is not going well; son's needs are simply not being supported well enough.  They are doing what they can but the additional support we won in court has still not been implemented (that's down to the Local Authority, not the college) so son's health is deteriorating rapidly and we are both exhausted.  I have thought about pulling him out altogether but have decided to keep him enrolled and let him decide each day whether he feels well enough to go in.  If I can see he's still doing too much and it's making him worse I may have to put my mummy foot down and tell him he has to stay home for a few days but I would rather he manage things for himself as much as he is able, so for now we're going with a chat in the morning about how he feels and whether he's up to going in and I'm letting him decide.

There was an incident last week; quite minor and probably just an oversight or misunderstanding on the college's part but unfortunately when I contacted them to ask for the situation to be clarified so that everyone involved knew what was supposed to happen I got several different versions of the same event from different staff members.  When I queried the discrepancies one member of staff in particular got quite funny with me which I don't appreciate and it puts my back up.  A mistake is just that and this was a fairly minor thing, it just needed someone to confirm that it had been dealt with and everyone now knew what was going on.  Instead it escalated fairly rapidly and what particularly bothered me was something they claimed had to be done because of 'teaching practice'.  They are unaware that I used to be a teacher and what they were saying was bullshit - I haven't pulled them up on it because it wouldn't have achieved anything and I didn't want anymore drama but it has left me feeling uneasy and in all honesty when I took him in today I didn't want to leave him there.

I think all I can really do for the time being is stress management stuff, so I have re-arranged a couple of appointments that I was feeling anxious about to give myself a bit more time and head space in between.  I am trying very hard to focus on positive, constructive actions but I do find it difficult; the fifteen years of public sector nonsense starts spinning through my head and I have to work very hard to quieten it down again.  Then I resent that I am having to spend time quietening down stress caused by other people and then I have to work at not resenting it :)  And so on.

I have been looking at ways to try and make a bit of money and/or give myself and son gainful employment.   He draws a lot of pictures and I'm going to look into making those up as little greetings cards and seeing if we could sell small packs of those.  He also writes a lot of stories and I'm wondering if we could try self-publishing some, not as great literary works of art but more as a kind of 'look how lovely and creative this learning disabled young man is', more to try to dispel the myths that people with learning disabilities are only interested in playing bingo and what they're having for pudding.

I'm also looking at his enormous Lego collection and wondering if I could put together a series of articles or advice guides regarding the use of Lego in education and give some examples of the kinds of things we've used Lego for at home and how people in similar situations to me (ie, forced to home educate because of a lack of suitable provision) can use the things their kids are interested in to create schemes of work and lesson plans (without having to spend a fortune, because we managed it for years spending very little).  But essentially all ways of trying to use things he's created in one way or another to generate a bit of work and/or income.  And once I've found a way to keep him usefully occupied all day I can start focusing on myself making a bit of money.  A friend has suggested proof reading, which I will look into, and there is apparently quite a lot of data entry type stuff to be done from home these days - quite boring work but it would bring in a bit of cash.

I think we're on a bit of a cusp.  The way we've been doing things isn't really working but I'm not too sure what else to do next.  So I'm just going to try a few things out and see how we get on, without making any big decisions or commitments.  I will let you know how it goes.

Sorry to have been so absent and I will try to catch up with all the other threads soon xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on October 07, 2019, 07:07:00 PM
When life isn't working, sometimes it feels like life's coming to an end, rather than the parts that no longer serve.   

(((Tupp and Son))) 
You do what feels right without reservation.  Trust yourself, Tupp.

::sending strength, creativity, and intestinal fortitude::.

Lighter   



 
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: sKePTiKal on October 08, 2019, 09:17:12 AM
Understand completely Tupp! You do what you gotta do, best you can. (((((Tupp))))

I like your idea about teaching through a child's interests, like the Legos. Also, maybe turning that into a book of lesson plans to make a bit of income. That's actually an old way of doing things - at least, how I was taught things like addition & subtraction; how that scaled up to multiplication/division.

Language was always so easy for me, I didn't need much instruction. But I learned a lot from trying to teach my brother to read & spell.

People contemplating homeschooling are usually pretty anxious about whether they can perform up to the standards. A book of lesson plans like that might really encourage someone to try.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on October 09, 2019, 10:54:55 AM
Tupp, I'm really sorry.
You're coping with a lot of uncertainty and stress and I don't know how you do it so well.

I wish I knew about income strategies.
In my experience in publishing, it's usually not a reliable way to earn any income stream, and is tremendously complicated. Unless you self-publish on some portal like Amazon and there are thousands of self-published books languishing there. As to marketing, most new writers are left entirely on their own with enormous effort to do websites and promotions and often, I'm sorry to say, for nothing much.

[EDIT: Know what? Was thinking back on this following unsolicited advice, and realized point blank that the right way to offer ideas like this would be to say: Would you be interested in learning more about my PT companion care gig, in case it might be possible for you? And that's it. Too often I get all caught up in my own fantasy of "fixing" somebody else's situation, and it can for the "fixee" be a whole lot of tiring work to explain why NO, that idea won't work in my case. Just want you to know that I don't need an explanation, because my guess is, if some kind of gig work would be workable, you'd have researched it long ago. So consider the blah blah blah below as something that doesn't need to be rebutted. It's PRE-rebutted! Left it in anyway in case it helps, but don't expect it could.]

My guess would be that something local might be more viable than something that depends on the internet. Again, just because of my own experience....the most lucrative and easy-to-begin gig for me in recent years has been light eldercare. Nothing medical, just light companion care.

I don't know if the situation's the same where you are, but in my area there are a LOT of retirees who are still generally independent but need (and can afford) someone to, for example:

--sit with the frailer or perhaps home-bound one while the other goes to appointments
--drive to doctor appointments (in their vehicle)
--grocery shop with or for them
--sort a closet
--take them on errands
--do their laundry
--cook a simple meal

What I was daydreaming about was wondering whether there's a well-off family with a child on the spectrum, a child you could manage and who might enjoy Legos play with your son. I wonder if you could earn money babysitting for their child, with permission to bring along your son? Same question for elder companioning. I can visualize families who would like you so much they'd do all they could to adapt your hours with their elderly parent to your own schedule.

I earn a nice hourly fee, which isn't bad for part-time work done only for hours I want to do it. (In my case I told them from the beginning I was available weekday afternoons, with a two-hour minimum. For some I'd do three hours.) When I had 3 regulars, it was surprising how fast my emergency fund filled up.

If you're interested, there's a huge market for it. I have a lot of tips on how to set it up. I was surprised how quickly I was in business. Though I did happen to know my original client through church, it still just took a few short references (any nice person you've met through your volunteering could be asked to write a few lines about your good character, skill and kindness with people, and work ethic).

I hope you can work out what is happening with your son and college. I worry for you about the increased isolation of home schooling. But I also know you know better than anyone what is possible and most workable for you, and him.

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on October 09, 2019, 03:56:00 PM
I wonder if you could start a consulting company, Tupp.

Help people with special needs children navigate the system, put homeschool programs in place and tweak as they go, look at what's working and what's not, keep people's lives on track with special needs kids, instead of learning everything the hard way, like you had to.  Food sensitivities are a factor, IME.  Figuring out alternative food choices is a nightmare when you don't know where to start, and are already overwhelmed, and doctors are denying food impacts health. 

The thought might give you the vapors.  Ignore as needed.

Ummm.... what about a job working at a different kind of special needs school/program?  Maybe where your ds enjoyed being, fit in, learned, and went for free, bc you're teaching there?

Lighter






 



Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 11, 2019, 04:40:10 AM
Thank you all, for your thoughts and advice and suggestions, as always :)

For the time being, any work I do really needs to be homebased and flexible.  Son's health is in a terrible state again now; college has been too much for him and it has really brought it home to me that the majority of people working with kids like my son don't have any kind of real understanding of how his disabilities affect him and how exhausted he gets.  They also don't seem to be able to accept that he's tired when he isn't showing the 'neurotypical' signs of tiredness.  With him, tiredness means his reaction times get slower.  His sensitivities to noise, light, sudden changes and so on become heightened.  His obsessive and repetitive behaviours increase, sometimes to the point of him being incapable of doing anything else.  He forgets to eat and drink, loses the ability to do simple self care like tidy himself up after the toilet or wash his hair.  And then all of that makes everything more stressful for him and me, which makes us both more tired, and then you're trapped in the cycle and it's only possible to get out (in my experience) by downing tools completely and doing nothing at all (which is what we're having to do at the moment).  So anything that involves leaving the house has the potential to create all sorts of problems so for now home based is the only likely possibility.  There are all sorts of things about; I'm going to look into as many things as possible and see how many we can realistically take on whilst bringing in a bit of cash.  If absolutely nothing works out, then I'll have to start looking into outside of home opportunities.  But home based would definitely be better for me to start off with.

There's also the issue of moving.  We really can't/don't want to stay in this house any longer than we have to.  I'm finding I'm feeling less inclined to stay in this area now that it's clear that going back to home ed is our only viable option.  Whether that will change if I start earning I don't know, but for now I want to try to keep my options open and if I can find a way to pull in some money that isn't dependent on me being in one particular place it will help keep options open to us in the future.

So that's kind of where we're at now.  I'm exhausted from everything that's happened over the last year or so.  But I feel like we've got a wide open path in front of us now, so I'm just going to take my time, try things out, see what works and see where that takes us.  A friend is coming to stay for the half term holiday, which I'm really looking forward to.  Son is off college now, too unwell to go in.  We'll try again after the half term; I've decided to keep him on roll there until the end of the course (next summer) but without any pressure on him to attend.  It seems easier from a paperwork point of view to do that rather than formally withdrawing him.  Onwards and upwards, I guess :) Thank you all for all of your help xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 11, 2019, 05:42:22 AM
By funny coincidence something just happened that kind of illustrates everything that drives me nuts.  The lady who runs the group I help out with - who is lovely and I like very much - has just emailed me to tell me that she has changed her mind, again, about how she wants things done.  It's not a minor tweak of a document or a re-wording of an email, it's a complete turn around from what we agreed, as a group, two weeks ago.  I've put in another three hours work on the most recent item, all of which is now not going to be used.  It's not because I've not done the work properly; I've not actually sent it to her yet, she's just changed her mind about what she wants to do.

This is kind of why I feel I need to just work from home, under my own steam, not answering to anybody, because I just find that most people seem to create work for me and most interactions just leave me feeling flat and deflated.  I'm so tired already and then other people in the mix just seems to increase that.  Sigh.  Anyway, I've sent the document off so she can use bits of it if she wants to but I think I will probably just do what I've already agreed to do and then not offer to do any more.  I think the time has come to focus on myself and son, first and foremost, and if anyone else wants to join in on our terms then great, but I think I'm kind of done with accommodating people endlessly.  Anyway, just my little grumble, off in to town now :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on October 11, 2019, 05:50:32 AM
I think doing what you agreed, then not offering to do more on that document sounds reasonable, Tupp.

Maybe the lady won't actually need it done differently if she's the one who has to do it.

She hasn't thought things through, and it's unfair that you're the one paying the price.

Good for you.   Take care of yourself first.

::nodding::.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 11, 2019, 09:29:45 AM
I think doing what you agreed, then not offering to do more on that document sounds reasonable, Tupp.

Maybe the lady won't actually need it done differently if she's the one who has to do it.

She hasn't thought things through, and it's unfair that you're the one paying the price.

Good for you.   Take care of yourself first.

::nodding::.

Lighter

Thanks, Lighter.  I've felt jittery all day since I got the email.  I think little things build up and then my body starts to respond with panic, whatever the situation is.  I've done yoga so will start to calm down soon.  Have got soothing music on.  Problems at college have been bugging me - I try not to think about it but I'm aware it's there.  The endlessly barking dogs - again, I try to ignore, it's a bit easier now the weather's turned because the doors and windows aren't open as much but they woke me at 6 this morning and I couldn't get back to sleep.  We had a late night so I could have done with a bit more sleep than that.  Tired through the day now, so that affects me, I'm trying really hard not to stock up on caffeine and sugar to get me through but without it I feel tired and listless.  Felt a bit despondent about a friend's reaction to something I told her.  Had been able to put it out of my mind but I think the barriers come down when I'm tired and stuff just floods in then and it's much harder to get rid of.  Going to the cinema in a bit so that will take my mind off things for a while :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on October 11, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
I get it, Tupp. Here's some script play (toss at your pleasure!)

Dear XX (lady you like a lot) --

Good to hear from you. Gosh, wish I'd gotten this earlier. What I've
done already is based on what we'd all discussed some weeks back,
and it did take hours. I'm afraid I can't start over again now but
I hope this will still helpful! It's attached...do take what's useful
and ignore the rest.

Best,
Tupp
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 12, 2019, 04:47:50 AM
I get it, Tupp. Here's some script play (toss at your pleasure!)

Dear XX (lady you like a lot) --

Good to hear from you. Gosh, wish I'd gotten this earlier. What I've
done already is based on what we'd all discussed some weeks back,
and it did take hours. I'm afraid I can't start over again now but
I hope this will still helpful! It's attached...do take what's useful
and ignore the rest.

Best,
Tupp

Thanks, Hops, that is kind of what I said to her although I don't word things as well as you do :)  But I wasn't rude or unpleasant about it, just sent the document through, explained I didn't have time to re-do it in light of the recent changes and said she's welcome to use bits of it if she can.  I've got two other things she asked me to do at the same meeting which I will do but only the barest minimum; I get that this is new for her and she's still figuring out the best way to go forward but it's kind of turned into a bit of a pain for me so I think I'm going to ease myself out and work on what's best for me and son.

On a positive note I spent yesterday evening reading up on work you can do from home and have about twenty things to check out and look into so I'm hoping that something there will at least bring in a little bit of cash and start things moving in a different direction for us :)  I think the good thing is that, although I have been feeling very down and despondent about our current situation, it has at least shown me what doesn't work for us and what we don't want, so I'm starting from a negative place but in a good way, if that makes sense?  Lol, nothing feels like it makes sense at the moment xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on October 12, 2019, 11:01:22 AM
Tupp:

Starting from a negative makes perfect sense to me, bc you've already Xd out so many options.... things get easier from that perspective.

Don't forget to network with people in your groups.  TELL them you're looking for opportunities you can perform from home.  They will know people who know people, and you just never know where things will go.

The saying...
Don't ask, don't get is a meaningful one.

Ask,  bc you're certainly worthy, and competent, and committed.  All great things an individual or company looking for help would benefit from,  IMO.

Lighter

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on October 12, 2019, 12:53:46 PM
You write SO well, Tupp.
And there ARE a lot of work-from-home jobs!!!

I had a church acquaintance who made a LARGE living
teaching online for an online university.

There are so many of them who hire online instructors.
Every subject you can imagine.

There might even be an online tutoring program.

Good luck with this!

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 20, 2019, 06:10:29 AM
You write SO well, Tupp.
And there ARE a lot of work-from-home jobs!!!

I had a church acquaintance who made a LARGE living
teaching online for an online university.

There are so many of them who hire online instructors.
Every subject you can imagine.

There might even be an online tutoring program.

Good luck with this!

Hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops :)

Things are changing quite rapidly at the moment - it's kind of exciting and scary at the same time :)

I've been reading up online about work from home/work while you travel/work online ways of making money and am trying to work out which methods to try first.  Things that don't require any training or equipment will be the easiest ways to make a bit of cash, but also tend to pay the least.  Other things will require me doing some training or refresher courses, possibly just from home, so will take more time to start showing any income, but pay better.  So I'm trying to find the best way to balance my time between things that will help now and things that will help longer term.  It's interesting to look into and I think it's very fortunate that I've got stuff I can try out without having to make a huge commitment to it in terms or time or money, and it will at least give me an indication of whether it's worth taking further.  It feels exciting to at least have possibilities again - I've felt really lacking in that department for a while now.

Money is also looking a bit more promising at the moment.  A problem with our gas meter has finally been sorted out and I'm owed about £300, so I'm looking forward to that coming in to my account.  Other things that have been niggling me seem to be smoothing over and it all just generally feels a bit more positive and a bit more like something I can do something with.  I think I've felt for a while now at the mercy of other people and the system and I find that intolerable, in all honesty.  So it feels good to be finding another way to get things done.

I've a friend coming to stay next week which I'm really looking forward to.  We haven't seen each other in over a year and I've really missed her.  I've kind of pulled myself out of the help I was doing with the group.  The lady running it is very nice, but I have struggled with her constantly changing requests and responses.  After the last incident (where she asked everyone what they thought and then went ahead anyway without waiting for an answer) I've since discovered that she's been in contact with a group that she'd asked me to contact.  I don't mind her doing it instead of me, but if she'd told me I wouldn't have wasted my time doing it (basically we've both done the same thing and only one of us needed to.  Communication needs improving).  I will have to have a think about a way to feed back to her because I think if she carries on like this she'll alienate people who could help.  I'm not sure of the best way to do it and think I ought to do it face to face so that's on the back burner for now.

And I'm focusing on moving again :)  I'm not sure when or where yet but I will be glad to leave this house :)  So I'm focusing on cleaning, de-cluttering and generally keeping on top of things so that when the time comes, I can just pack and go without having to have a huge clear out and spring clean of the place.  My main aim to work through is scanning all this blooming paperwork and burning the hard copies.  It takes up a lot of space, has a lot of bad memories associated with it and I resent having to pack it all up and lug it from house to house, and then having to give it room.  It can bugger off.  So I think that's my big job to keep chipping away at over the next few months or so.
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on October 20, 2019, 10:49:03 AM
Tupp,
I think scanning and burning the paper piles is a brilliant idea. This way they'll take up a LOT less space in both your home and in your mind. The constant reminder of stacks of sh** is one thing that has been really stressful for me. Beginning to get a grip, so a lot more of it is out of sight. Really helps. Bravo, you.

How lovely that a good friend is coming! Hope you have a wonderful time, take comfort in this friendship.

It sounds great too that you're stepping back from what you can't fix (group leader lady being too scattered to not waste volunteers' time) but, if I understand right, remaining active with the group anyway to possibly build positive relationships?

And of course would love to hear about the moving plan as it shapes up. You deserve a non-damp, cheery home with enough space for you and son to breathe and relax. This was a stop-gap and though moving's hard, I'll keep all fingers and toes crossed for the right place to appear.

Open to the possibility of good things happening! (300 pounds is a nice hint...)

Hugs
Hops
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 25, 2019, 05:36:26 AM
Tupp,
I think scanning and burning the paper piles is a brilliant idea. This way they'll take up a LOT less space in both your home and in your mind. The constant reminder of stacks of sh** is one thing that has been really stressful for me. Beginning to get a grip, so a lot more of it is out of sight. Really helps. Bravo, you.

How lovely that a good friend is coming! Hope you have a wonderful time, take comfort in this friendship.

It sounds great too that you're stepping back from what you can't fix (group leader lady being too scattered to not waste volunteers' time) but, if I understand right, remaining active with the group anyway to possibly build positive relationships?

And of course would love to hear about the moving plan as it shapes up. You deserve a non-damp, cheery home with enough space for you and son to breathe and relax. This was a stop-gap and though moving's hard, I'll keep all fingers and toes crossed for the right place to appear.

Open to the possibility of good things happening! (300 pounds is a nice hint...)

Hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops :)  Yes, I've stepped back from a 'proper' volunteer role:  I'm happy to help out as and when but don't want to commit to it now or be a first port of call for different things.  I can carry on with the group, making tea and I don't mind doing odd bits and pieces, I just don't want to be committed to it to then find it's all being done differently again.

Friend staying was lovely.  Much talking and thinking about next steps, a lovely visit to a local village thought to be the final resting place of a legendary King, very mystical and magical and stunning coastal views.

A decision has been made!  We're heading to a different town - same stretch of coastline but a bigger town.  We can get a nicer house in a better location, we'll be closer to some good friends, there are some good language schools there so I might even dip my toe back into teaching overseas students; I enjoyed that and it's a lot less stressful than standard state school teaching here.  Also a good University; I do keep wondering about further study so it's another possibility.  There seem to be more activities and clubs that my son would enjoy but I'll check those out before we make a move; sometimes the way a club's described and what it actually does isn't quite the same.  But overall boxes are being ticked, financially it seems possible.  It will take a while to sort out, I need to get some more money together and I do want to banish the paperwork; i'm not dragging all this crap with me this time.  So it won't be happening for a while but it feels nice to be focusing on something and to be working towards something again :)
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on October 25, 2019, 12:18:26 PM
OH TUPP I'm going to twirl in the moss, and smile to the sun... just over the moon about your plans to move, be closer to friends, and dive back into life... teaching... other opportunities that have yet to be revealed!

That's is amazing news, and I want you to know that it's just the spark I need to go into the office and dig in. After moss twirling, of course; )

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 25, 2019, 12:41:48 PM
OH TUPP I'm going to twirl in the moss, and smile to the sun... just over the moon about your plans to move, be closer to friends, and dive back into life... teaching... other opportunities that have yet to be revealed!

That's is amazing news, and I want you to know that it's just the spark I need to go into the office and dig in. After moss twirling, of course; )

Lighter

Lighter, thank you :)  I am being more realistic about this move.  I have always thought that (a) something would be a magical solution to life and (b) that I'd kind of just go back to my old life (pre -son) at some time.  I've let go of that.  I'm not looking for perfection.  I'll check the various groups and care options out up there and if any of those seem like something son could attend, even if just for an afternoon a week, then we'll set the wheels in motion.  I'm starting from assumption of working with him at home (both in terms of continuing his various therapies and education stuff myself) and having paid work I can do from home as well and then if we do manage to get paid care help for him it will be a bonus.  But I'm starting with the assumption that I'll do it all.  I found the fall from my expectation of moving here to the reality of how it's been just too much to cope with and it took me in to a very deep, dark pit that I don't want to visit again.  So this time I'll assume it will all be me and if it gets better than that, then great.

It's a nice town - on the coast, quite quirky and vibrant, lots of independent shops and social groups.  Good train links to other major cities.  About 90 minutes away from friends who I am currently about four hours away from so that will be good, it's doable in a day then so I'll be able to see them regularly like I used to.  I am looking forward to that.  The main town itself is expensive but there are areas about twenty minutes out that are more affordable and lots of old properties which I like (our current one is a new build).  Not necessarily going to be easy or happen quickly but it's looking viable and that will do for me for now.  This move will be completely in secret; I'll get mail redirected from this address indefinitely this time so that no-one knows we've moved again and there is then no way 'She Who Must Be Avoided' can possibly find out.  Lots to do, much to organise but in theory it all looks possible and I am looking forward to getting the wheels in motion.  And hoping for a spot to grow moss!  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on October 25, 2019, 07:02:14 PM
Well, you've done this before, and this time you're all in with self protection, and expectations seems to me.

You're certainly capable of organizing this move, finding a new location, and making it happen.  I feel good about your choice to just cut ties with forwarding addresses.  Pick and choose who you invite into your life.  Are the friends, 90 min away, the ones who visited you before?  The lovely people?  Was this last visit from that same friend?

I know your son is developmentally young for his age.  Is that age now about 5yo approximately, or older?  Will he continue to mature, or is that something that's not changing?

I hope this move brings new opportunities, and a fresh start for you and ds.  The town sounds nice, and living on the coast has it's charms. 

I talked about my past, that I miss so so much, with my T, and she listened intently, looked me in the eye, and said... "That's over now.  You're past that, and it will never come again.  You have to think about building a life in the present. "  I'm paraphrasing, but that was her message.

 She went on about how amazing the world is, and what joy there is to be had... many other very nice things, and I think I just blinked at her, perhaps very flat, bc she sent me some things on how we're really afraid of how powerful we are, not how wanting we are. 

She's ready for me to step into my power, and I'm thinking that would be an amazing next step, no matter what I do.   

I have the feeling that letting go of the past, as you've said recently, is a big part of the next step in this journey.

I hope you find a shady little garden, with plenty of moisture from the coast so that moss grows in shaggy abandon, good for wiggling toes in, ((Tupp.))
Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 26, 2019, 03:39:18 AM
Well, you've done this before, and this time you're all in with self protection, and expectations seems to me.

You're certainly capable of organizing this move, finding a new location, and making it happen.  I feel good about your choice to just cut ties with forwarding addresses.  Pick and choose who you invite into your life.  Are the friends, 90 min away, the ones who visited you before?  The lovely people?  Was this last visit from that same friend?

I know your son is developmentally young for his age.  Is that age now about 5yo approximately, or older?  Will he continue to mature, or is that something that's not changing?

I hope this move brings new opportunities, and a fresh start for you and ds.  The town sounds nice, and living on the coast has it's charms. 

I talked about my past, that I miss so so much, with my T, and she listened intently, looked me in the eye, and said... "That's over now.  You're past that, and it will never come again.  You have to think about building a life in the present. "  I'm paraphrasing, but that was her message.

 She went on about how amazing the world is, and what joy there is to be had... many other very nice things, and I think I just blinked at her, perhaps very flat, bc she sent me some things on how we're really afraid of how powerful we are, not how wanting we are. 

She's ready for me to step into my power, and I'm thinking that would be an amazing next step, no matter what I do.   

I have the feeling that letting go of the past, as you've said recently, is a big part of the next step in this journey.

I hope you find a shady little garden, with plenty of moisture from the coast so that moss grows in shaggy abandon, good for wiggling toes in, ((Tupp.))
Lighter

Thanks, Lighter :)  Yes, the friends we'll be closer to are the ones who have been down to visit since we moved here (I've seen more of them since we moved here than the friends who live down here, because they've made more of an effort to get together).  So to be a train ride away from them and to be able to pop up for a few hours rather than having to do at least an overnight will mean we can get together more often.  When we lived nearer to them before I generally saw them at least every four to six weeks so it will be nice to get back to something like that again.  I think my son is probably functioning more at a seven year old level now, although his speech is probably further behind than that.  I am planning to carry on working with him with his independence skills and I'm going to look into assistive technology for him more now.  For example, there is apparently an app where he just presses a picture of a bell and it automatically calls however many phone numbers you've programmed in to it and send his location to those numbers as well, so that if there's a problem he can get help quickly.  You can also get systems now where you can see who's at your door even if you're not at home, and speak to them over some sort of wizardry tech set up - so effectively I can answer the door even if I'm not home.  Things like that would make it possible to leave him home by himself for an hour or so, I think.  And in all honesty Lighter, I don't think I'll ever stop working with him to help him be as independent as possible - I think there's always a chance we can learn new skills and change our neural pathways so I'm hopeful that he will continue to improve.

Yes, your T is right.  I have, and am, finding it really hard to let go of the past - all the bad things that happened, all the good things that I hoped I'd get back to and haven't been able to.  And because so many of my past experiences have been bad, I find the idea of having a big open space in front of me frightening rather than exciting.  But I am trying really hard to focus on what I can do, right now, to make things work a little better, even if that's just having a glass of water rather than a cup of tea or a banana instead of a biscuit.  I'm going to keep chipping away at it and really working at focusing on what I want to happen, rather than what's happened before.  It's the balance between taking sensible precautions and still moving forward that wavers a bit, so I will keep focusing on that.

The idea of shaggily abandoned moss is a brilliant one and makes me smile, Lighter :)  Lol xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Hopalong on October 29, 2019, 04:40:40 PM
I really like the sound of this other town, Tupp.
I hope this plan will come to life.

I like your realism and controlled expectations, too.

I just hate the idea of you going through another move because of you-know-who. That this old bat still has influence over your life is a frustrating thought.

Do you think you'd feel differently about your present town if you were in a more pleasant home? I was crushed for you when it became clear that your "new" place was poky, moldy, damp and cramped. You deserve enough space to breathe, NO damp or mold, and somewhere you really can make cozy. I understood completely why things went dark in your mind for a while.

I like your new plan too. But I hope Nmom is irrelevant.

love
Hops

Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on October 30, 2019, 10:02:28 AM
I really like the sound of this other town, Tupp.
I hope this plan will come to life.

I like your realism and controlled expectations, too.

I just hate the idea of you going through another move because of you-know-who. That this old bat still has influence over your life is a frustrating thought.

Do you think you'd feel differently about your present town if you were in a more pleasant home? I was crushed for you when it became clear that your "new" place was poky, moldy, damp and cramped. You deserve enough space to breathe, NO damp or mold, and somewhere you really can make cozy. I understood completely why things went dark in your mind for a while.

I like your new plan too. But I hope Nmom is irrelevant.

love
Hops

Hops, I can see you've been busy updating threads!  Lol.  Unfortunately, it was whilst browsing online at potential new properties locally a little while ago that I realised I didn't want to be here, lovely house or no lovely house.  College hasn't just not worked out, it's actually doing a lot of damage now (more drama today which I'll no doubt moan about at some point but for now I'm trying to put it out of my mind for the rest of the day).  But it's clear to me that college isn't the answer.  I've looked around at the adult provision and that's not ringing my bell either.  I do accept and appreciate that it might get to the point where I just have to suck up what's available and lower my standards - but I'm not there yet and I'm going to keep trying all the time I've still got a bit of fight left in me.  I feel very abandoned by my friends here and I have met some nice people, but I'm aware that nice people alone isn't enough.  I need good quality care for my son and a decent range of social activities for him to get in to and the boxes just aren't being ticked here.  So even with a lovely home, we've still got the same problem of (a) it's going to fall to me to do most of the work with him and (b) that means me having to be at home a lot  - and my friends here aren't even keeping in touch by text, let alone making time to come visit.  I don't expect anyone to make a huge effort but a slight nod every now and again to acknowledge they're aware we exist would mean that at least I don't have to make all the effort by myself.

Mum was the straw that broke the camel's back.  Do you have Kerplunk in the States?  You have a tube full of marbles that are balanced on sticks which you take it in turns to pull out.  Eventually all the marbles drop.  Although everything else had been going less than well, I was consoling myself with the fact that she didn't know where we were.  But now she does know, that last little bit of comfort I was trying to give myself has gone as well.  So she isn't the sole reason we're moving, but her not knowing where we were was the one thing that was making me feel I should stay and keep trying.  And now I feel like I want to put my trying into moving somewhere she doesn't know, and not telling anyone.  Shush :)  Lol.

But the positives - I am really, truly, leaving my old life behind this time.  Physically, the paperwork clutter will be gone when we leave here, scanned and archived if necessary, burnt if not.  Much of son's childhood stuff will be no more; I'll keep a few things of sentimental value, make memory books and so on, but much will be going to charity or passed on to various groups in the area.  Friends who can't find the time to text from one month to the next will not receive my love!  I'm not perfect, but I'm a good friend.  I'm kind, I listen, I offer practical help when I can, I'm a whizz with looking up stuff on the internet and will happily search a load of info for someone in need and mail it to them.  I'm good company and reliable and I do bloody well with holding it all together, if I do say so myself.  So I think friendship should be about people who enjoy my company enough to want to spend time with me and who're happy to hang on in there a bit if I'm in a bad place.  My friend who came to stay, for example, asks a lot of questions about details that I don't think of ("where shall I put my cup?  Shall I use this towel or that one?  Shall I put my biscuit on a plate?  Do I need to bring my coat?") and by the third evening my tiredness was overwhelming and I got a bit snappy with her.  I apologised the next day (having had some sleep!) and she said, "Don't worry at all.  I know you were tired and it's been so good to see you, that's what I'll be taking home with me".  That's a true friend; she cares about me enough to put up with me being grumpy and moody from time to time because she knows the situation's tough and she knows it's not my natural state.  Anyway, I'm waffling, but that's what I want going forward, real friendships, through good and bad, not ones that only work if I do all the running about.

And - this is all going to take quite some time to organise.  Much needs doing in the house first, son's programme needs sorting and setting up, health is priority!  I'm not going to run myself into the ground anymore.  I'm going to take my time with it all and I'm not rushing into moving.  I'm going to check the various facilities out in the new area and if they turn out to be of no use, I'll re-think.  If they do look promising, then I want to spend some time getting to know the area a bit so that we don't end up living somewhere without a bus service or surrounded by unpleasantness.  And then I want to spend time finding a nice place, that we can really relax in and call home.  So it's all going to take a while and during that I am going to enjoy living here - there are still nice places to visit and beautiful beaches to enjoy, and some nice people to spend time with, so this is new and improved Tupp telling everyone else they can bloody well wait until I'm ready.  Lol.  What a long essay! xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on October 30, 2019, 01:07:36 PM
You say what'cha need to say, Tupp.


Sometimes there's a place for actual F bombs, as well. 


I'm completely giving this post.

Lighter
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on November 01, 2019, 11:37:38 AM
You say what'cha need to say, Tupp.


Sometimes there's a place for actual F bombs, as well. 


I'm completely giving this post.

Lighter

Lol thanks Lighter, there are times when only the F bomb will do!  I kind of feel in an alright place.  I feel very certain about what I don't want now and I do feel like there's been a shift where I feel like I deserve to have what I want not, rather than feeling like I ought to be grateful for crumbs.  That feels good - although strange!  But strange in a good way :) xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: Twoapenny on November 03, 2019, 06:33:34 AM
I'm just jotting down things I'm noticing as we've been talking about expectation, fantasy situations, releasing old patterns and so on over various threads just lately.

A couple of days ago I received an email message from someone I used to date a long time ago.  It didn't end terribly well (quite abrupt, he just sort of vanished and I at that point had not read about 'The Switch', as recommended by Hops, so I yelled and shouted and called him names when he stopped returning my calls).  We have had contact with each other at times over the years (the odd email, Facebook and so on), sometimes it's been nice, other times he's been rude, I've been rude, I've found him boring and so on).  But no major contact for about fifteen years since we last saw each other.  He has crossed my mind a few times over the last few weeks as he used to live in the area we're now looking at moving to but again, no more than a fleeting "I wonder if he still lives over that way".

When I read the message I realised it's one of those spam ones that happen when someone hacks your account and uses all your contacts to send links to people or get them to buy stuff.  So I sent him a message just to let him know his account's been hacked.  He replied saying thanks for letting him now, he'll look into it, how was I, and from that a few emails were exchanged, ending with (from him, "It's been nice hearing from you again" and me saying "you could fill me in on all your news at some point".

Now what has been interesting is that I've been observing what goes through my brain (there we go, Lighter, I do pay attention to your posts about curiosity :) lol ).  In less than a minute my mind had gone to us getting back together, having a long distance relationship until such time as I move and then we can 'be together'.  Five minutes on from that and I'm going through all the possible problems that can occur.  Five minutes from that I'm going through every thing about him that I didn't like, found annoying, thought was rude and so on.  Five minutes from there, I'm going through all the things I did like and making excuses for all the things I didn't like.  And then from that - and this was the bit I found really weird - I found I was censoring myself in my mind TO MAKE MYSELF SOMEONE HE MIGHT LIKE MORE.

I've put it in caps because it blooming well shocked me.  Not only because of my feminist sensibilities about women not changing themselves to please men but also because I really thought I'd come a long way past trying to make people like me.  The other stuff (whirring through scenarios and coming up with plans and fantasies) is fairly standard for me so I was trying just to notice it and let it go, as Lighter would say.  But that bit really caught me off my guard.

And then I noticed when we were out last night how quickly I adapted my answers and statements to meet the needs of the people I was with (for no reason; they're nice people and they were doing a tour around a local historical building so there was absolutely no need for me to do that) and again, how I adapt my tone when replying to a couple of texts this morning.  In some situations you have to, of course, you'd talk to your boss or a client in a different way to the way you'd talk to a close friend but these are relaxed, easy situations where I'm still very focused on not upsetting or offending anybody - and there's no reason that I would, because I don't speak in an unkind or unpleasant way and we're not discussing anything that anyone would have a particularly strong opinion about, it's just chat.  I kind of knew I did it but I didn't realise how much still, despite the fact I have worked on it before.  And it made me realise it's also one of the reasons I avoid people so much; because I haven't got the energy to put on a front to the world and deal with it and I don't feel like I can just say what I think or how I feel without worrying about how the other person takes it.  How exhausting.

So - my mission now is to really, really try to just let people see me as me - who I am, good enough as I am, this is what you get.  And then to cope with the fact that some people won't like it and will keep away and that will really hurt.  But I think in the long run it's better than me doing all this mental gymnastics all the time.

And I thought it would be interesting for me to try swapping a few emails with 'the man from the past' and just try to take it all at face value, without reading anything into it, making any assumptions, escalating anything from it or writing out a future scenario.  Just to practise being myself and seeing it for what it is - a brief catch up with someone I used to know.  I will let you all know how I get on! xx
Title: Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
Post by: lighter on November 03, 2019, 11:22:39 AM
It's a shift, isn't it,  Tupp?  To really SEE what's going on inside our heads.  To wonder why we're thinking it, without any judgment, but just ask the questions, and follow the answers where they go. 

And we're breathing through it.... remembering to breathe, bc our biology can't get hijacked if we're breathing slowly... mindfully... which gives us access to our entire brain.... all our logical problem-solving skills.... and creativity!  How I've missed creativity, Tupp.

New ideas, and solutions pop up lately.  Not that I've been able to USE them, or make them into more, but I can sense the edges of current boundaries, and perhaps moving beyond.... and what might come next. 

Something.

New.

Something I haven't thought of before.

Something I haven't been doing the last 12 or so years.

Something that's not about my children, old conflicts, current conflicts, or people-pleasing codependent tapes in my head, and I'm about to spend time with an elderly neighbor gal, she's a monster in her yard... works like a fit man, and we're moving tons of leaves into my front island together.  The thing is.... I'm sort of self conscious around her retired, pragmatic retired nurse, understands and SEES things for what they are persona.  I like her very much, but I'm not myself with her, so your last post strikes a nerve for me too.

And the noticing what IS, is the next step in considering what can be, and what I want.  I'll try to be more myself with her today, and just relax out of doing doing doing, and trying to protect her from falling (she's SO capable) and just ask her what she thinks more, instead of DOING DOING DOING in my way, which is to do everything. 

I don't want more of what I have, though I'm a fine person as I am..... I'm an unfulfilled person. A person who cares more about others, and puts others first pretty much all the time, and noticing THIS has been revelation.  Seeing it in a T's eyes.... seeing that woman break down, and want me to make choices that SHOW my children I believe I'm worthy.... was just heartbreaking.  That T is the one who referred me to current T, btw. 

::sigh::.

Lordy.... I could say I had no choice over the last 12 years.  I could say I had to put the children first, and I honestly believe that....  always will.  Kids come first, and that's what good parents DO.

But I had the choice to take better care of myself, and that wouldn't have meant I didn't put the kids first.  I should have put myself on the list, and that's not something I dispute... it's something I'm gobsmacked to SEE so very clearly. 

I did that. 

I left myself off the list, with brief attempts at self care..... large things that used to come easy to me.... but not possible in the present. 

I can't go back, and that's something that requires mourning, and logical thinking to make sense of, process, and acceptance, so I can file it away, and look toward a realistic, fulfilling future for myself. 

Sometimes I DO sense the empowerment, and possibility for myself..... sense the areas outside my narrow life, where I could GO, and build things... NEW things FOR MYSELF.  I look forward to considering things way outside my little box, and just expand possibility. 

And that's new for me, Tupp.  I have to tell you.  It was a very sad realization.... the noticing all I DO for others, and don't do, or even consider doing for myself on a very consistent basis.  Even though there's been a part of me that understood, and tried to make changes.... the more consistent melody in the background was the ongoing crisis playing out, even when things weren't IN crisis.... and that had to be addressed.... is being addressed now.  I can't change that on my own, and I have to have help doing it. 

I wish I'd kept a very detailed journal about my T appointments.  I think I hit the high points here, thank goodness, but there's a lot I WANT to recall, and am afraid I can't, hence.... I see T every week.  I will see her every week, and that's just a given at this point.

At the last T session she took me through a vision meditation for how I want my life to look going forward.  I didn't see myself in THIS house, and I saw a piece of the work I think I'd like to do.... might do.  Both things surprised me, and if I started to get emotionally triggered, T knows how to immediately get me back on track, and revisit the point after we've completed the mission in the moment.  She's so great.

I have to get into the yard, and freezing temperatures..... looking forward to homeade chicken noodle soup afterwards..... fresh made cauliflower grain free nummy noodles... SO GOOD.  Fresh English Peas.  Lots of fresh veggies, and comfort.

I hope you're snuggled in, enjoying yourself this cold Sunday.  That makes me smile to picture: )

Lighter