Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Chicken on June 17, 2005, 05:21:52 PM
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hello all,
I'm new to this discussion forum, I'm sure this topic has been done to death so I apologise in advance for any repetition...
I'm so upset as I am in my mid thirties and have never had a fulfilling relationship.
I am continuously attracted to unavailable, abusive, manipulative men who are incapable of offering the relationship I crave.
I have been to counselling and have talked and talked about it, but nothing changes and my patterns just keep emerging.
I get so confused in these relationships because I can't figure out why they are so unfulfilling... Is it my fault? Am I projecting past hurts onto my current relationships? or am I really choosing unsuitable men?
I feel like if I could figure this out it would be a huge step, because if I am to blame I will stick it out and work on the relationship instead of running away when the patterns emerge...
I hope I am making sense...
Has anyone been through this and come out the other side? I really don't know how to recognise these wolves in sheeps clothing (if they are)
I don't think I can take another heartbreak!
how the hell do I cure myself? What do I need to do to heal myself and ensure I experience love before I die!!! I have so much love to give and the longer I leave it the needier I get...(how unattractive!)
Thanks so much
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Chicken, (I hate to call you that because it is a brave step to post here) welcome. Often these recurring relationship problems have their roots in our childhoods. Maybe you can tell us a little more about your background, your relationship with your mother, father, siblings, etc? You don't have to if you don't feel comfortable enough here yet. I just didn't see quite enough detail in your post to answer meaningfully.
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Welcome Chicken,
What happens in therapy that talking about it led nowhere? A therapist who is pretty competent would not let you feel this helpless and self-blaming. This is a complicated issue as longtire points out.
bunny
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Welcome Chicken,
I would think that if you are still unable to make good choices in love relationships even after therapy, that you have not had a very effective therapist and probably have not gotten to the roots of your relationship problems.
It took me 20 months of intensive therapy to finally be able to go deep inside the very injured part of me that I was so skillfully avoiding and neglecting. I have had 2 failed marriages and I can point fingers at them for not being good guys, but the three fingers pointing back at me have to do with my father and mother and childhood and how I was set up for making bad choices.
I guess we would need to know more about what has gone on in your life that may have led to your negative experiences--if you would choose to share that.
I welcome you and you will find there are many of us here who can relate to having made many bad decisions in our relationships so you needn't feel alone.
Brigid
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You sound so much like me. I had so many bad relationships I lost count. I am married now, and I am here to tell you that even then you might still be lonely, you might still be needy, and your chances of getting your needs met are even less than when you are single.
I think I'll make a list.
1. If you rush into any kind of relationship because you are needy, it will cause problems. There is no magic person out there who will rescue you and fill in your gaps and understand everything. If you meet a person who seems like that, they might have issues and their own agenda.
2. If you marry the wrong person, you will solidify any relationship problems and activate a lot more of them.
3. If you love yourself, you can show others how to love you. If you do not love yourself, you will demonstrate to others that you might not be worthy or capable of love. In order to love you, they will have to overcome your own attitudes.
4. Take your time. You might be needy but your needs cannot be met by a normal love relationship. You have to heal some things first and then approach a relationship in a more healthy state. Do not let your age make you rush into something. You want a healthy relationship with a healthy person, not a stunted relationship with someone who can exploit your weaknesses, even if they are doing is unconsciously.
Hope this is helpful.
Plucky Guest2
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Hi Chicken -this is a complex and difficult dilemma . I have also been in relationships with "unavailable,abusive and manipulative WOMEN who are incapable ----etc" .These relationships always ended painfully with me feeling either deeply hurt or relieved that it was over.
I started to see the light when I realized that my parents were "unavailable,abusive,manipulative and incapable ---and so on"
It seems that we,as adults, are drawn to those people, at a below conscious level, who resemble our parents in some ways. We then set out to transform these partners into the loving, accepting folk who will treat us like we really want and need. Unfortunately this does not work because the partners that we choose are not capable of meeting our needs and then they hurt and harm us all over again. Bummer!
Have you tried dating a nice man who really likes you just the way you are.
What happens to you emotionally when you feel an 'easy flow' of love and acceptance from a guy- no turmoil, no churning gut feelings, no conflict and no mind games? Does this equate to NO attraction?
John/.
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let's call you Plucky not Chicken! It's a brave step to admit there's a negative pattern you want to change.
Secondly- that's ALL it is, a negative pattern you somehow got into.
It DOES NOT mean there's anything wrong with, that you're unloveable or unacceptable in some way, or that you are doomed to these half- relationships.
I've been there and worried all these things are true; and let's face it when you're alone on a Saturday night or holiday...these negative feelings hit you in the face, along with a replay of all the bad times. We are lead to believe everyone has a 'soulmate' or true love, and everyone will find fulfillment through a relationship, but there are so many other ways to live a good life.
I've made a pact with myself:
a) I am going to make the best possible life I can for MYSELF even if I were to live on my own forever;
b) I'll cultivate healthy friendships to give me love, plus acquaintances to share activities with. I even got me a puppy, who's the best companion I've had so far!
c) I'm not allowed to beat myself up over anything bad that's happened in THE PAST: I'll learn from it if I can, but only I can decide to move on and not obsess about things to my detriment.
I may have my bad days, but I've decided to fake it until I make it, and I tell myself every day that by doing the above I'm going to be busy having a good life, and special people will be drawn to that wonderful me who is living life to the full.
If you are truly stuck with this and feel you need more therapy consider another therapist- some are much better than others. And keep posting here- loads of people here have been in the same place you have, you'll get lots of support and god suggestions.
Take care ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
And stop calling youself Chicken!
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Hi there, C
I highly recommend this book to you, "Getting the Love You Want..." By Harville Hendrix. Someone had suggested this book on another thread. I've started reading it. I think that you will find a lot of sound answers to your questions. This is definitely not another one of those feel good, self-help book. It's been an eye-opening book for me so far.
Butterfly
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Hey! I'm plucky. Plucky is taken.
Plucky
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Hey Butterfly, I was the one who suggested that book, I cannot find my copy right now and would appreciate it if you posted the store where you bought it.. Thanks ..John
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Hi Chicken,
Great to meet you. :D
I'm interested to understand your situation a bit more if that's okay with you. Otherwise I'll probably go off half-cocked and be barking up the wrong tree.
You said you've had counselling and talked and talked for hours and hours. Was that with a qualified therapist & over an extended period of time? Or was it in group workshop stuff? I'm curious as to what kind of counselling it was, and how qualified it was?
I've found there are many avenues available to us in these types of situations. But still, different strokes for different folks too. :D Do you feel comfortabe to tell more about the ones you've been down so far, and for how long?
John2
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Chicken, thanks for your post. Welcome to the board!
I have been through a somewhat similar situation. I was once attracted to people who were bad for me (N's!), and all of my relationships were hellish. It got to the point where I had to break the pattern of getting involved with unstable people.
It took a hellish self-inflicted dateless year for me to get a handle on my situation. I woke up at 6am, practiced yoga, went to work, then came home and read, meditated, etc. I kept a journal and wrote a lot. It felt good to get a lot of the bad stuff out. I cried a lot and it was painful to revisit some of the things that I went through.
Combined with seeing a great counselor, I learned a lot about myself and the type of people I needed to avoid (both romantically and professionally). While I survived, it was an awful, lonely time for me. But I knew that it was something I felt that I had to do, because I was tired of dealing with drama queens, liars, manipulators, etc.
By chance, I wound up meeting my fiance at the end of that year. Had I met her before that period, I would've thought that she wasn't "exciting" enough. You know, because she's kind, sweet, loving, and you always know where you stand with her.
As for the "cure" you seek, there isn't a simple antidote to your solution.
While I am curious to read your reply to those who've requested more details about your situation, you should recognize how important it is that you see a pattern in your life that you'd like to address. That is an important step, especially as there are so many people living in denial.
I hope that you can find some helpful information here. Welcome again, Chicken. I think that you will find a lot of positive support on this board.
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Dazza,
Had I met her before that period, I would've thought that she wasn't "exciting" enough. You know, because she's kind, sweet, loving, and you always know where you stand with her.
Well, its good to finally hear a man state what we girls have been saying for awhile. Why do we have that attraction to "bad girls/boys" rather than to the good guys/gals?
This is what I am trying to get to now. I only wanted the good guys as friends (father replacement figures), but wanted to be in relationships with the ones who were edgy, needing fixing, etc.
I have to say that it is getting better for me and the fixer-uppers I am not interested in any more. I have actually met a man through a group I am in that I think is wonderful, but he is not ready for a relationship. I get that and have just made myself available as a friend. Maybe in time he will come around and notice me for more than that, but if not, I would certainly wish him well because he is a terrific individual.
Chicken,
Take some time to find and learn to love yourself. This is the key to then finding and loving someone else in a healthy and fullfilling relationship imo.
Brigid
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Hi John,
I checked out Amazon. com and it has the book available there. However, I borrowed the book from my local library. What an exceptional book.
Butterfly
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Hi again Everyone!
Thank you all for your lovely kind words and support. I'm so happy I stumbled across this forum!
Well, through research and counselling, I came to the conclusion that these patterns do indeed stem from my childhood, so I completely agree with you all about that...
When I was a child my mother didn't like me and my Dad was preoccupied, distant, unavailable etc... I never once received any affection from either of them. I grew up quickly and I felt like I developed a wonderful coping strategy when I was a kid... I distanced myself from them and became self-sufficient and independant, I had a "Screw them, I don't need anything from them" attitude that served me very nicely indeed!!
Unfortunately I grew out of this defence mechanism...!
When I feel rejected now, I experience an intense feeling in the pit of my stomach that seems so deep it feels like I have it from a previous life!!
I open myself to the most unsuitable people and I get crushed again and again. It's a pity I subject my poor battered heart to this constant torture but I feel so drawn to certain kinds of men, it's just as painful to resist than it is to give in so I go for it, like a lamb to the slaughter...
The other night, I had a glass of wine with the new man in my life, and all of a sudden I became overwhelmed by this image that came into my head, I felt like I was a delicate flower in the palm of his hand waiting to be crushed. I had a lump in my throat! I felt powerless.
some of you suggested going to a different counseller etc, I really liked my current counseller but I left because I felt like it wasn't helping me. I mean, I know that my problems stem from my childhood, I know I was neglected and I know my relationships today are carbon copies of the dynamics I shared with my parents. Talking about it doesn't change it... I forgive my parents, I feel no bitterness towards them, and I get along well with my mum today (My dad died years ago)
What will therapy do for me? I'm completely aware of what I'm doing and the damage and self-destruction that I endure... I don't think counselling is going to teach me anything I don't know already!
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Hi Chicken --
Re what a therapist might be good for:
What about helping you learn a different set of behaviors, so that you can get off this dismal treadmill? If you could have come up with them on your own, don't you think that would have happened by now?
[No criticism intended. I have the exaaaaaact same problem, in 24K heavy gold electroplate. This is the main reason people go to AA and Al-Anon and ACOA and CoDA groups, too, at least in my experience.]
A cognitive t might be able to offer you some alternative responses to try.
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You said you've had counselling and talked and talked for hours and hours. Was that with a qualified therapist & over an extended period of time? Or was it in group workshop stuff? I'm curious as to what kind of counselling it was, and how qualified it was?
Hi John2,
I have been to two different counsellers (because I moved from one city to another) they were completely/fully qualified. It was just one on one basis. Both counsellers were women. I didn't stay with either of them longer than a month. I felt like I didn't need it, read my reply above as for reasons why...
I'm kind of half thinking of giving my counseller another shot... see what will come of it...
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Hi Chicken --
Re what a therapist might be good for:
What about helping you learn a different set of behaviors, so that you can get off this dismal treadmill? If you could have come up with them on your own, don't you think that would have happened by now?
[No criticism intended. I have the exaaaaaact same problem, in 24K heavy gold electroplate. This is the main reason people go to AA and Al-Anon and ACOA and CoDA groups, too, at least in my experience.]
A cognitive t might be able to offer you some alternative responses to try.
Hi Stormchild, thanks for your response. I am considering going back to counselling- sometimes I think I don't have a problem... Sometimes I kind of want to remain in the throes of my addiction... It's only recently that I have realised that I do have a serious problem, I am beginning to realise that it's time to buck up and start fighting this.
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I've been for the last two years on and off to an excellent psychologist, and I think the way she helped is to help me reconstruct my self-image/ negative self-talk/ ways I relate to people.
Even though I knew my childhood was rough and my marriages v. difficult, I don't think I could have rebuilt my life as well without her support.
It is wonderful having her in the background too so when I'm struggling with something I can call or see her and she helps me get it into perspective.
I thinka lot of counsellors are good at breaking down people's beliefs and experiences and emotions- but the best ones can help you make sense of and put your life back together after the recognition and grieving.
Recently I came to the conclusion- I'm not ready for a big relationship right now.
Before I might have rationalised that as no one loves me/ I'll never find anyone...you probably know the kind of thing.
Now I just feel- the time's not right for me and when it is I'll get back out there and look for someone.
Maybe your image of a crushed flower is a similar thing? You need to feel more complete and strong and taking care of yourself so that if you meet an abuser you're not vulnerable?
I also think we grow up thinking life is like the movies and it's terrible to be alone. But I know now- unless I'm fine on my own first, it's not going to work in a relationship.
I'm working on building me a great life as a single person for the forseeable future.
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Hi, Chicken, and welcome. Chickens are cool, and since I don't eat them, I don't have a problem with your name, even if you chose it to represent fear.....something I sure have plenty of!!! Glad always to be friends with fear!!! (better than having it for an enemy, that's for sure)
I have been following your thread, and the great folks here, as usual, have pretty much summed things up....but I might be able to send another thought your way about therapists....by way of my experience.
My current, traditional therapist was available to me in a very dark time of my life. She held my hand, helped my process, validated my pain. Because it was two years of full on crisis (legal battle) she pretty much was on weekly damage duty. I love her dearly. However, probably because of the state I was in, she was pretty much just putting on band aids as fast as she could....and we only nominally touched on some root issues for me. Mostly we focused on how to function in a horrible situation.
When I hit rock bottom emotionally, I was presented with another counselor, more of a teacher/mentor, and it was she who handed me a key that I am not sure could have come in any other form. My children sent me to this point, I am sure, as I was miserable, and making them so as well.
All that I had read about, thought, heard, believed, all came crashing down and opened up around me...suddenly things made sense. My part in all of it, the possibility of changing, of choosing to do so, all of it was now available.
I took a haitus from my traditional counselor while I worked on the things I was discovering....and just recently, started back up with her. She is without ego regarding her clients, so she was only happy to see me again, not threatened at all.
And although I am still in "crisis" legally, I am not emotionally, and doubt I ever will be there again (except briefly....). Now my therapist and I are delving deep, and she has helped me heal so many things from my past that I don't know how it would have happened otherwise.
I also still work with the other person from time to time, as her expertise is more about how energy works in this life, so it is wonderful for me to check in with her and have spiritual discussions, etc..
My point is this: open up. Have faith. I had no other option but to say I was powerless.....and that I needed some more adn different help than I was getting, even though I didn't know what it was. I couldn't do this alone...couldn't figure it out. I was just plain overwhemed.
So I asked God/the universe/whateve higher vibration or power there is for help (call it whatever works for you). How these two women came to me, or I came to them, is purely a miracle. But I was ready. It didn't come to me until I knew I needed it.
When you are ready, things will practically land on your doorstep. I see this group here that way, a real miracle discovery for me.
I am sure things will work out for you. You have taken a major step toward yourself already.
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What will therapy do for me? I'm completely aware of what I'm doing and the damage and self-destruction that I endure... I don't think counselling is going to teach me anything I don't know already!
My therapist has told me nothing that I didn't know already. The way therapy really works is the RELATIONSHIP between the patient and the therapist. This relationship can only be established over time, and the therapist has to establish a bond of trust. After that, the patient will start enacting things in the therapy session, or in dreams, or after leaving the session. The patient will have feelings for the therapist (dependency, shame, idealization, anger, resentment, etc.) and these feelings will be processed between them. It's a relationship unlike the one with a lover because you can TALK ABOUT FEELINGS without the other person retaliating, withdrawing, punishing you for it, using it against you, etc. Your patterns will be manifested in the sessions and you can work on them safely, unlike with a lover to whom you're sexually vulnerable and especially when you have doubts about his sensitivity, his commitment, etc.
bunny
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Welcome Chicken:
So glad you've posted and yes, shown such courage in reflecting on all of this. There has been much wonderful support back to you here already eh!
I was wondering, did you spend time between relationships, to go over what happened, and heal from the loss, or did you find you were getting involved with another person fairly soon after each breakup? (If you feel comfy enough to answer, that is).
Plucky is a good name, but it is taken already (Glad to see that Plucky!! Good for you!!)
Hummmmmmmm. Chicken is a foul bird. How about Heron? Steps along the edge of the water, looking carefully, taking her time to examine what's underneath, quite a lovely, inspiring bird! Well......if Chicken stays your choice, may I call you Chicky? Soft, sweet, little one trying to grow?
:D
GFN
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Your story sounds so much like mine Chicken. And talking my head off for hours and hours led nowhere positive. A senior psychologist said one day to my therapist and me "The last thing that she needs is talk therapy" and my therapist agreed :x . I was so offended and hurt. I'd had so much physical abuse and I had so many stories of sordid and emotional and psycholological abuse to recount. They went on for hundreds, maybe thousands of hours. I could have kept 20 therapists busy for 2 years just recording MY CONFUSIONS AND THE ABUSE.
She ended up being right :oops: .
Talk therapy for us isn't always the right type of therapy FOR SOME OF US.
Better now
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The search for the perfect love.......the one and only! So we have high expectations......that invariably fail to be fulfilled, so the quest goes on. The fantasy continues.....and as is often the case, one either finds ourselves with partners who live in fantasy land, or more like, wolves in sheeps clothing.
When we seek the ideal, it is soooo easy to have the wool pulled over our eyes by the wolves. They know exactly what you want to hear and thus play it back to you. Soon you find yourself in an realistic relationship desperately trying to keep it together. Only when the honeymoon period it over, reality really sucks! Either you're being used one way or other....because you actively allow yourself to be, or you're with some person who hasn't got the slightest chance of fulfilling any of your criteria and you're pissed off!
From what you wrote, I'd say the biological clock is ticking away biggggg time and your desperation is more obvious.....not a good situation to find ones self in....not good at all. So in your opinion, probably all the good guys are spoken for.....and most of the rest are crap heads! So you've probably had a number of affairs....with the guys promising to leave the wife.....whilst having fun with you. When the fun's over, as you become serious, back to wifey he goes!
I have absolutely no advice for you.....save this. If you're using sex to find a life partner.....stop! If you find yourself being talked into bed on meating a guy for the first or second time, walk away. Re define your goals and remove 'screw me' from your forehead :D Sounds harsh, but the more desperate a girl gets, the more obvious and easy to take advantage of her it becomes!
Take up rambling and join a group......doing something completely different to what you normally do......and keep your knees :wink: together :wink:
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Hi Chicken, some observations and questions for you:
I am continuously attracted to unavailable, abusive, manipulative men who are incapable of offering the relationship I crave.
You sound pretty convinced that you’re attracted to inappropriate men, i.e. that these men are abusive etc…..but then you said:
I can't figure out why they are so unfulfilling... Is it my fault? Am I projecting past hurts onto my current relationships? or am I really choosing unsuitable men?
I want to ask, are the men abusive or not? This wouldn’t only be your view, it would be the view of other people – your family, friends, work colleagues. Do they think your romantic relationships have been with abusive men? The generally accepted idea is that in a loving relationship people don’t physically, verbally or psychologically abuse each other (at least not regularly).
So maybe you want to talk about what the men you’ve been with have been like? Many here may have a view as to whether they’ve been abusive or not. That might answer your question as to whether it is the men, or you!
Also this is interesting:
I had a glass of wine with the new man in my life, and all of a sudden I became overwhelmed by this image that came into my head, I felt like I was a delicate flower in the palm of his hand waiting to be crushed.
I guess something he said or did bought this image into your mind? Can you remember what happened?
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Hi Chicken! I think many of us can totally relate to your fears and frustrations. Did you grow up with a N in your family or any other kind of abuse? My mother was a supreme N and terrorized us all. I was the only one who challenged her- a losing prospect!- and the rest of the family only saw me as a shitdisturber. Anyway, I too have had as lifelong struggle to find a decent emotionally available " normal" guy! I'm a nurse in psychiatry with 20 yreas experience. I also have a mental illness so I've seen shrinks my whole life. It's an ongoing uphill battle to understand why we make the choices we do, how to recognize early red flags- because they're always there, we just tend to deny and rationalize them. For years I was perplexed why " these guys who seemed so loving and grounded in the beginning then turned into abusers. Everyone said to me" Oh, you're so independent, so successful, educated, bright..." They thought I was just " unlucky in love". The light went on one day when I realized, and then had to work through why, I was th eone who sought them out, chose them. I rejected lots of " nice" guys- too boring!!! It's NOT a matter of fault- although getting stuck in self blame and guilt is completely normal for us( the global " us"). You do what you know and what you were conditioned to know. Chaos and abuse are familiar if you grew up with it and were voiceless and powerless as a child. Not to mention the fact that the first people we are to trust is our family. How can you ever trust- esp. yourself- if you learned early on you couldn't trust the only people who supposedly loved you and were supposed to protect and nurture you? For the longest time I was addicted to " bad boys"- they were exciting, unpredictable. regular guys were boring. I'm still learning to let go of this self destructive pattern. It's a hard row to hoe learning why we pick these guys and how to spot them and aviod them. Being partners of N's we are codependent, vulnerable and we're starving to find love- in any guise. And how Ns present themselves as the ideal partner and " appear" to " love us unconditionally and not like any other man has or could" is an irresistable lure. I always ignored every red flag and as I said, denial and rationalization are old friends. I think the terror of abandonment and having to be on our own- either permanently or for periods of time- is overwhelming and we become love junkies. I had 2 good relationships with decent guys before I met my n. Now I feel all my painful hard work in therapy was for naught. Yet when I look back on all my relationships there has been a pattern of picking men who have less and less abusive traits. I know this may still sound a wee bit sick- I should say, unhealthy- it's progress. Like any addiction it's a day by day battle and one step forward often 2 steps back. Knowing yourself, being brutally honest and willing to look in the proverbial mirror for me has been the only way to start getting a handle on it. I could never have done any of this without my psychiatrist who is fabulous. I have found it very beneficial to find a shrink who specializes not only in my condtion but does a lot of work with personality disordered people and their significant others. I recently made up a list of completely unacceptable and abusive behaviours I will NOT tolerate and have it taped several places in my house. I also now use my family- the supportive non N ones- and my good friends as sounding boards because a huge number of them over the years have hated my choices. At that time, surprise, surprise!- it used to just push me more towards the abusers and I discounted all their negative feedback. No more. Every time they have been right on and if more than 1 or 2 of them have concerns, I'm outta there. The work in progress for me is that, unlike a healthy, confident, non damaged woman, it's now a matter of me ending it right away the FIRST time I am on the receiving end of abuse. At least with my ex, I only spent 6 months enduring the escalating bullshit instead of my old pattern of hanging in there and wasting years hoping for change that is impossible with N's. Another big wake up call this time has been the incredible toll the last few months have taken physically and mentally. I will not allow anyone- MYSELF FIRST- to compromise my health including my spirit and soul. I'm 47 years old and don't have th time to continue this pattern. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I firmly believe it's possible to find a decent man totally capable of accepting, respecting and really loving me. It's a long painful journey but it is worth it and you can learn who you are and to love yourself first then be capable of trust and love with someone who is whole. Be good to yourself.
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Hello Chicken,
I found a great book When Hope Can Kill. The bottomline in the book is about finding your true self. Over 75% of the book is about finding your true self through journaling. Most everything you've talked about here is in that book. The author's premise is that unless we know our true selves we will allow others to use, abuse and hurt us.
I have yet to read another good book someone recommended Why Men Love Bitches. It is basically the same premise as the first book I mentioned. Know your true self.
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Talk therapy for us isn't always the right type of therapy FOR SOME OF US.
Better now
Same here. My therapist and I work a completely different way than most therapeutic relationships. His premise is that each person knows what they need already AND how to do their therapy to heal. He is more of a mentor like someone else said here about their therapist. Although at times he has called me his mentor because I'm doing therapy a different way. Sometimes he has to step back and trust. I would say my therapy is traditional and non-traditional at the same time. It works. Much of the time I bounce my inner discoveries off my therapist and he gives me more insight into them. He also is like a guide and shows me where I need to go when the trail seems to end.
I've been with my therapist for a long time even though there were times I wanted to quit because I didn't like what I saw on the horizon.
I'm in the grieving stages of my therapy and have been since November when I began my third book. My books, in essence, are my therapy. I talk, emote and work through everything by writing my story. Sometimes I literally cry as I write.
I've been writing for over 25 years through various avenues and found fiction is what does it for me. Actually the avenue is fiction but the story is the truth. Sounds strange but my childhood always seemed like a piece of fiction so I guess it really fits. :lol:
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Hello All,
Well here I am, two months later at the end of this relationship. It has been a roller coaster of a ride which resulted in me being physically and sexually assaulted. This only happened last night so I am still reeling. I have phoned my counsellor and she is phoning me back to make an appointment to see her. The only reason I am going to go to counselling is that I am not sure I can keep away from this man on my own because I still love him (I am addicted to him rather) and I know I will crave him when the dust settles.
I am so confused about the whole situation and I don't know how to deal with his constant phone calls, texts and emails. I told him to stop calling me but he doesn't listen. I have repeatedly tried to walk away from this abusive relationship but he always manages to win me back in the end, due to his constant phone calls,texts etc, so he thinks I will succumb eventually this time too.
Part of me is terrified of the time those phone calls will stop... (?)
I don't know what has become of me and why I always choose these abusive men as partners. Moira, you are right, I hand pick these men, they are carbon copies of each other. I feel like I need them and I need the intensity. This guy was really full on and it was an intense relationship. I feel like I need that in someone, I could never deal with subtleties. I need someone to really prove their love to me and to run through hoops before I will take them seriously, I am shocking myself by what I am saying here, oh boy! I am so messed up... so confused...
I hope I have the strength to climb this mountain that lies before me...
P.S Thank you all for your kind words. Moira, you make a lot of sense.
Resolution: I am hurt by your words as they seem to imply that I sleep around, which I do not. I take a while to get to know someone before I sleep with them so don't bother putting your issues on me.
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Just to let you all know, I changed my user name from chicken to Selkie. I thought my original post was going to be a one-off but now that I decided to stick around, I wanted to choose a name other than one I just picked off the top of my head...
hope no confusion was caused!
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Hi Selkie,
I've been away and just read most of your thread. I wanted to respond perhaps before I thoroughly understand because I am concerned that you have been hurt, and that you are not sure whether you will return to be hurt again.
Most of us up here on this board can relate to your issues. We all have been taught that we do not deserve true love and a healthy relationship, that our self worth depends on whatever sick relationship we can get, that if we reject the screwed-up 'love' we have we will not have any love at all.
While many of us reject that message intellectually, it is very hard to reject it emotionally. That takes time and repetition. Maybe as many times and for as long as we took to learn it in the first place, namely, our entire childhood.
I want to tell you what on some level you altready know to be true, but cannot believe it, cannot feel it in your heart.
You deserve to be treated with care and compassion.
You have qualities that many others can appreciate.
You have not done anything wrong. You are not a bad person.
Your ex is an abusive person who only wants you because you allow him to abuse you. That is not love.
You will find love from friends and others out there when you look in the right direction.
But that love is not necessary, because you wil learn to love yourself, and that will be enough, if you choose.
Please don't go back for more. Hasn't he been clear what he is about?
Plucky
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(((((Selky))))))
Wow, you have been through the ringer. I just read your update on this thread, and your other questions about what is an N?
One thing struck me for certain: when I was married to my exN, he often twisted my head around so awfully, that I thought perhaps he WAS a victim of me....
But the truth is NO ONE in a healthy relationship does that stuff to either party! Sure people disagree and get angry, but love, true love does not pull the kind of abusive stuff your ex has. And it is very clear that he has twisted your head to the point of thinking....what? that you deserved to be assaulted?
Drama, that need for it, (in my experience) only meant I was not aware of what true love really looked and felt like....and was a sure sign that I did NOT love myself.
I will echo what plucky said: what you are experiencing IS NOT LOVE.
Love will only come to you when you begin to love yourself. PLEASE get away from the predator....love yourself enough to see what life might be like if you loved yourself...catch a glimpse, please.
Stick with therapy.....get involved in your own life...without the drama of men...or all the men will share similar qualities (or you will find them boring...also not love).
Bless you. Keep posting, and let us know. I'm cheering you on (on the road back to YOU).
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a narcissist is totally vulnerable: not in a way they understand or construct like the rest of us do through relationships, but the n doesn't 'get' what makes a relationship work. They've come to understand relationships through their early life experiences and abusive situations- that life and relationships are a form of competition, a battle, and unless you win...you might not even exist.
For them it's a fight to the death.
I think I understand now- whenever I engage with a narcissist- to replay my own childhood- I can't ever find fulfillment or acceptance through that relationship because whilst I am ready to concede my difficulties or weaknesses...a narcissistic personality has been conditioned not only to fear such concepts...but they don't exist within them.
Whatever the conditions which produce a npd...the last thing on the agenda is honesty and a real human response.
So I have been round and round in circles trying to connect- with someone who can only view me as a weaker person, or else a threat.
The only thing I can do right now is withdraw from romantic relationships, and build myself up so that I am no longer vulnerable, I'm happy to be alone and have a strong sense of myself.
I believe I attract npd people ( or other personality disorders ) because I am so conditioned to bridging the gap between what I want and what actually is...
where other people would walk away as soon as the situation seems wrong or abusive, I stay and try and 'put things right'.
But that's not love. All of a sudden I understand myself and my situation.
I've so often ( because of my childhood and later experiences ) seen love as a form of suffering...
I need to take some time out and adjust to a new way of relating where everyone is on the level and looking for the same thing.
And I have to accept a period of mourning for all the horrible relationships, and a period of being on my own for a while.
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Hello All,
Well here I am, two months later at the end of this relationship. It has been a roller coaster of a ride which resulted in me being physically and sexually assaulted. This only happened last night so I am still reeling. I have phoned my counsellor and she is phoning me back to make an appointment to see her. The only reason I am going to go to counselling is that I am not sure I can keep away from this man on my own because I still love him (I am addicted to him rather) and I know I will crave him when the dust settles.
I'm so sorry Selkie. ((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))
I've been through coercive sexual assault numerous times with my h. I do know the pain and confusion that brings.
The only way out is through knowing yourself, trusting yourself but first finding your true self. Then you will not be attracted to men like this and best of all they wont be attracted to you.
Again, I'm sorry you've been these horrible violations.
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Hi All,
Thanks so much for your responses,
write: I am glad you understand where I am at. Yesterday I was very weak, confused and distraught, today I feel like I am a lot stronger. I know for certain that I will not return to this man, I can't say that I won't crave him. I am just not there yet, but I am beginning to understand the gravity of my situation.
I know I have what it takes to pull through this and find the kind of love I know I deserve, it will take a lot of research, counselling and thinking and maybe even crying! I have never recieved the proper kind of love, and it all started in my childhood I am sure of it. Manipulation, punishment etc is something I'm incredibly comfortable with, the sexual assault I experienced two nights ago was "my punishment" (in his words) for my behaviour. It made me feel sick because I felt like a child again.
I too, equate love with suffering, my relationships have always carried a great deal of anxiety, so much so that when If i am in a relationship, I am afraid to book a weekend away for fear i may be on one of my downward spirals when it would come around, and then I wouldn't feel like going.
Thankfully, this disease has not spread into the friendship department. I have been blessed with countless good friends all along the way throughout my life, friends that I can count on and who love me and care about me deeply. There is never any complexity within my relationships with my friends, and I thank my lucky stars for that.
Mum: The messed up thoughts! (as you spotted on my other thread!) -now this is where I am going to find it most difficult in my recovery. I am still very confused. I don't know where i end and he begins! I'm not sure what are his traits that are projected on to me and If I am doing that to him or who owns what or who is what, I don't know if I am the one who has caused this, yet! I will come to the bottom of that. I have a feeling we might both be that, I don't know.
This kind of twisted thinking thing is part and parcel of these kind of relationships though (which is very evident in Spyralle's thread about her exN) , that's why they are so head-wrecking!
write: I generally take a long break in between relationships. I cannot even bring myself to look at another man unless the one I have is out of my system, I am just like that by nature. So I am have a long open man-free road in front of me now, to get cracking on what it is that you are doing...
Sallying Forth: The sexual assault is a first for me. I have experienced physical abuse in previous relationships. I am definately going to bring this one to the attention of my counsellor (she returns from holidays on the 15th)
Two nights ago, as well as raping me, he began by pulling my hair so hard that my head still hurts two days later! I remember misinterpreting that as passion! In the past when he behaved in a controlling way, I found myself happy because this proved that he loved me. All this messed up stuff. I need the counsellor to tell me what love really is. :(
Thanks again for all your replies!
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(((((((((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))))))) I really feel for you so much.... By the sound of it your parents are the same as mine. Narcissistic mother and withdrawn father. I too have been in a series of damaging relationships, with people that allow me to re enact my childhood stuff over and over, each time thinking that 'this time it will be different'. Of course our hopes are always shattered in the end.... and still we blame ourselves and try to make some sense of what happened with completely "twisted thinking". You are so right about that.
I was in therapy a few years ago as I was training to be a counsellor and had to be there as part of my course. Of course I came to realise then that perhaps my family were not as 'normal' as I had always tried to make them out to be. I was in a relationship with another N at the time. He once kicked me wearing the new boots I had bought him and then wandered off singing. Anyway to cut a long story short my therapist asked me "What would he have to do to you to make you see him for what he is" I wasn't able to answer that question....
Like you, I gave up on therapy. I reckoned that I had pretty much worked out why I did what I did but that didn't help me stop doing it.... So I thought I would work on my problems myself... It is now 10 years later and you know the story. I was really glad to read that you had decided to go back into counselling. I have too only this time with a different therapist. This time it's a woman. She asked me yesterday what had attracted me to my ex. That was a really hard question for me... He is certianly not Brad Pitt!!! I had known him a long time and had always thought he was an arrogant *****r.. But I remember having a conversation with him one day and something just clicked in my head, then off I went into oblivion... It seems that that was the time when I recognised him as something familiar. Imagine being able to stop at that point and simply say "No thanks"....
Selkie, everything you say is so familiar to me... One of the many things I am learning here is that this sort of twisted thinking exists and how it happens. Before I just thought it was so...
The sexual assault is a real worry. I so know where you are coming from when you said that you misinterpreted it as passion... Please sustain your strength in not succumbing to his calls. I badly know the feeling of wanting them so badly.....
Write said:
a narcissist is totally vulnerable: not in a way they understand or construct like the rest of us do through relationships, but the n doesn't 'get' what makes a relationship work. They've come to understand relationships through their early life experiences and abusive situations- that life and relationships are a form of competition, a battle, and unless you win...you might not even exist.
For them it's a fight to the death.
That makes a lot of sense to me when I think about my ex that is exactly what it was like. If it's a fight to the death we need to get out of the game xxxxx
I was talking to my therapist yesterday about real love. She said it was a place where you could just 'be' ....Imagine that xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Spyralle x
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Hi Spyralle,
your post was so touching and apt that it brought a tear to my eye. I honestly believe that with each bad relationship we are having, it brings us further to the truth, and forces us to deal with our undealt with issues. You got to learn the hard way I suppose or else we wouldn't learn or listen at all. It seems we both brushed our issues under the rug for far too long. I know your situation has gone on for so much longer and thus your mountain to climb is going to be far bigger and loom for far longer than mine. It will make you a stronger person at the end of it. The relief you will feel when you are free of this weight will be immense.
my therapist asked me "What would he have to do to you to make you see him for what he is" I wasn't able to answer that question....
God, that's really amazing, because I would reply "He would have to be violent with me" as I know I wouldn't return if it escalated to that, and that would be my way out. I am relieved that he was violent with me in a wierd kind of way as it helps me not to look back. It's a shame I would stay up until that point though. Why would I settle for everything but the final physical blow?
Like you, I gave up on therapy. I reckoned that I had pretty much worked out why I did what I did but that didn't help me stop doing it.... So I thought I would work on my problems myself... It is now 10 years later and you know the story. I was really glad to read that you had decided to go back into counselling. I have too only this time with a different therapist. This time it's a woman. She asked me yesterday what had attracted me to my ex. That was a really hard question for me... He is certianly not Brad Pitt!!! I had known him a long time and had always thought he was an arrogant *****r.. But I remember having a conversation with him one day and something just clicked in my head, then off I went into oblivion... It seems that that was the time when I recognised him as something familiar. Imagine being able to stop at that point and simply say "No thanks".... ....
This really brought a smile to my face! I suppose this is what I want to achieve from counselling in a nut shell. I will be honest with you, when I met this guy, which was only two months ago, (but it feels like a year ago as the relationship was so intense and progressed triple the time it would take for a normal relationship to progress) I knew he was bad news. As you can see from my first post on this thread. At that point the addiction was there. I could have said "no thanks" but I went right ahead and you know the rest.
I really think it would be amazing if I could say no to someone like this from the onset. I would be so proud of myself. I do think these people will always be a temptation for me, they will always come knocking at my door just to test me to see if I can still abstain. I really liken it to alcoholism or some other form of addiction. It's something I will have to learn to live with.
Please sustain your strength in not succumbing to his calls. I badly know the feeling of wanting them so badly.........
It hasn't started yet, I think it's because he is trying to contact me so bad. When he finally gets the message and the dust settles and the phone stops ringing, then I'm sure the self doubt will begin and I'll second guess myself and my decision.
I was talking to my therapist yesterday about real love. She said it was a place where you could just 'be' ....Imagine that xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.........
:D I try to imagine it, I can't help but think there would be some catch, but that's because of my experiences. I know true love exists, it would be amazing to have some
xx Selkie xx
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Hi Selkie,
Isn't it good to read stuff from other people that makes you feel less alone with your problem. That is how I have felt posting here. Just to know that people have actually experienced the craziness and are still around gives me hope...
Your relationships sound just like mine have been. Dive stright in and just get lost in the intensity of it all. It's like being covered in magic stardust. Once you are in the stardust you close your eyes to everything except those wonderful feelings. The ones that tell you that this is the right one and that this time it really will work out. Whilst posting here i have realised that there were massive warning flags for me which I just brushed away because the intenseness was overwhelming. My ex said everything that I needed to hear. He also exposed his vuknerability, which is like a drug to me. I would be the special one who would make it right for him. When a found out he was married a few weeks into our relationship, he wrote me a letter. What I took from the letter was the story of a lonely little boy who had been abandoned by his mother and the rest of his family. He had been married three times. In my head none of these women understood him like I did and none of them could ever love him the way that I would. Actually I should have read that he had walked out on three wives at a whim, had three children two of whom he doesn't see and had left nothing much but devastation and a string of debts in his place.
So my thinking was already pretty crazy even before he went to work on me. On the night he gave me the letter, I told him everything about myself. I kept nothing back at all. i basically gave him all the ammunition he needed for the next three years. And even as I'm typing my brain is trying to convince me that in reality he was a nice person. At the beginning of this thread you talked about your vision of being crushed. It's that feeling of knowing somewhere and just ignoring it that i think is the key. There needs to be an antidote to the stardust and I'm sure that is within us somewhere.
I would so love to just be.... The catch for me is I'm not sure that I know how to.... You are right about there always being a catch. i guess with a narcissistic mum there usually is one...
You are right about the phoning too. You are strong enough not to take his calls because he is calling.... it seems to be that validation that we need that we are worth calling. Even if it is from somebody sick and twisted.
Keep believing...
Spyralle x
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In answer to one of your earlier questions, Selkie, the most paramount purpose of going to therapy is to develop a healthy relationship with yourself. In my opinion, all of our relationships in life reflect and point to how we feel about ourselves. And so, you might find, as you go through the process of therapy, deeper and clearer truths will be revealed to you about how you perceive life, love, relationships, men, women, et cetera. All of these truths play and important part in how you operate in your life. I am talking about something deeper than, I don't like myself very much or I don't feel I deserve love. I believe most of us would be shocked if we were ever to really discover what we truly believe about our selves and other peopel. The unconscious prejudices and preconcieved ideas that rule our life. In fact, I will say to you that if you feel bored or distracted in therapy or that it is not working, that in fact, it is in deed "working" because it is stirring up feelings in you that are uncomfortable. If you are used to being treated badly, it is very hard to determine what is going on using your feelings, because a lot of times we are so disconnected from the way that we feel that we cannot get a grip on whether we're coming on going.
So I think the most important things to do now is not to leave this man alone, or get yourself out of the relationship or try desperately to figure out what's wrong -- I think it is to feel. Feel exactly what you are feeling right now. Look at it. Decipher is. Try to determine where it is coming from. What are it's routes. Dismantle yourself, and you will begin to see the core of your problems.
Best of luck
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Hi, Selkie--
I just discovered your thread and was really confused in the beginning why everyone kept calling you chicken! I thought everyone had lost their mind or Selkie meant chicken in some language I didn't speak or something.
Anyway...
When you mentioned how talk therapy seems to just go over the past, I thought of something that in the end seems really true to your experience-- one of the benefits of therapy is that you can catch your reactions as they happen in the relationship. So, your therapist can work with you while you go through the seduction, preabuse, abuse, then return stages. It's really helpful to have that. Something about the cycle of abuse is so addictive it's hard to intellectualize later (or admit to!). It's interesting that you seem to seek out therapy only for the bad cycle of the abuse, not for the intoxicating "fun" cycle-- I did the exact same thing! Therapy seems unnecessary when things are going well (or really "well" because it's just part of a bad cycle).
Have you read about the cycle of abuse? On-line there's tons of stuff on it, and there are a lot of books. I recommended one to some others: Men who hate women and the women who love them. Yes, awful title, but it is a classic exploration of this cycle. I have been in it, and you just got out of it (I hope! You may jump back in-- let's hope not). It is very compelling. Of course, it's not compelling at all to someone who has not suffered abuse as a child and who has a healthy idea of how all this works. Alas, we weren't all that lucky. My parents actually planted the cycle in my psyche by beng rejecting and then loving, rejecting and then lovng. Until there was the utter rejection and abuse, then unfair punishment, I wouldn't get the attention and "wooing" and love as we had our "reconciliation." The only time I got attention was in the midst of some Crisis and Pain. And always the transition from rejection to affection was based in nothing real, so I had no idea how to "make them love me"-- it became a compelling fantasy to try.
Sound familiar? Probably it does :( Anyway, now is the time for reflection and reading. You have an addiction, and luckily there is a lot of research on the addiction. With your therapist you can get through this, but no more flower-crushing men for awhile, ok?
And to answer your first question: You aren't in the remotest of remote likelihoods an N. I don't know if he is one, but he is likely one, and he is something worse: an abuser.
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We seem to be back to the recurring theme of the "bad boys." Why is it that those of us who were raised by n parents end up being so attracted to these edgy, dangerous and seductive men? That is actually a rhetorical question, as I have pretty much figured that out in therapy. For those of you who still are attracted to the bad boys, I am a testament to the fact that good therapy can cure you. I used to think that I would never want those nice guys in my life for anything other than friends--that he must have an element of danger in order to instill passion and chemistry. WRONG!! Now that I have my head screwed on correctly (at least for the most part), those bad boys are now just that--bad boys who are bad for me and anyone else they come in contact with. Now that I am healthy, I attract men who are are healthy and we are attracted to each other. It has been an amazing epiphany for me and I am so happy with the new and healthy me. My therapist is also amazed and pleased with my progress and I think will soon be kicking me out of his nest to fly on my own.
Have faith, find strength and courage, continue with therapy, take advantage of other support networks if possible, lean on your friends when needed and keep posting here. You are wonderful, beautiful women who deserve to be loved by someone who is worthy of you. I keep you all in my prayers.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Wow, Brigid-- congratulations! I would love to feel confident I was in your place. Being very pregnant means I don't attract anyone :) but I'm hoping when I get out there to attract (and be attracted by) nice men. What a wonderful gift that would be.
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Vunil,
Well, sweetie, you get to look forward to the love of a baby for now, and you're going to love that. My babies are all grown up, but I look back on that time with such fondness.
The good news is, those great guys will still be there when you are ready for a relationship. I hope you can find a really wonderful one to help you raise that beautiful baby you are going to have.
Many blessings,
Brigid
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Wow, Brigid, thanks! And I'll transfer this wish to Selkie, too. Wouldn't it be nice for all of us to have companions we aren't ashamed of and that our friends don't hate :) Ones that don't make us want to post here about all the b.s. they pull on us daily. That would be peachy. Just visualizing it makes it seem more possible.
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My therapist is also amazed and pleased with my progress and I think will soon be kicking me out of his nest to fly on my own.
Congratulations on your progress!
If therapists kicked patients out when they got better, the patients would backslide and get worse, so they wouldn't be punished for improving. And therapy is useful even when things are better. Have you ever mentioned to your therapist the idea that he's going to kick you out of the nest?
bunny
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bunny,
Have you ever mentioned to your therapist the idea that he's going to kick you out of the nest?
Actually no. We have recently decreased from meeting every week to every other week at my suggestion. Never having been in therapy, I wasn't sure what to expect from bringing the relationship to an end. He has never suggested that we would end therapy for me any time soon. I guess I just assumed that would be the case. At this point, I'm pretty much taking it month to month and hoping I do not have any significant backsliding. I guess time will tell.
Thanks for the information.
Brigid
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Brigid,
I urge you to tell him that you felt he'd kick you out of the nest to fly on your own. This is very important material. I predict he will be fairly excited to hear it, as it is "transference" and it's like giving him a gift.
bunny
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If I were bored and distracted in therapy I would tell the therapist that I was feeling this. Here are possible things it could mean:
-- I am very angry with the therapist.
-- The therapist upset me and I can't tell him/her about it.
-- I don't like or trust the therapist.
-- I want to leave therapy and can't admit it.
-- I am trying to escape from things the therapist is saying. The therapist needs to be more sensitive to my needs.
Bottom line, it's grist for the mill.
bunny
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Hi Everyone!
I had a nice weekend away. Well I enjoyed the first day and a half and then I was dying to come home because I was tired of having to smile all the time and make conversation with everyone I had just met/was introduced to. Having to do that for a day though, did me the world of good. It feels healthy.
There is so much to respond to on here that I don't know where to begin.
The therapy thing:
If I were bored and distracted in therapy I would tell the therapist that I was feeling this. Here are possible things it could mean:
-- I am very angry with the therapist.
-- The therapist upset me and I can't tell him/her about it.
-- I don't like or trust the therapist.
-- I want to leave therapy and can't admit it.
-- I am trying to escape from things the therapist is saying. The therapist needs to be more sensitive to my needs.
Nothing applies to me from this list... In the past I just couldn't justify continuing therapy because ...
1. It's so expensive!
2. I felt like it was constantly keeping my wound open, thus always making me feel down, I felt like I had to keep myself in that depressed state in order for the therapy to work. If I allowed myself to be happy, then my wound would close and I wouldn't open up to therapy in my next session, thus making it a waste of time and money and I felt like such a fake.
3. I have felt that talking about it, didn't work for me. I knew why I was experiencing the things I was experiencing but I couldn't help it. However, things have changed since then and I have definate goals now about what I want to achieve from therapy. I think it's important to have a goal, an objective, otherwise it's a pointless exercise in my opinion.
I feel more educated about my problem now. I feel like I have a problem, which before I wasn't so sure about. I was very confused before but now I think I can trust my perception on things which is helpful because now we can chat properly
I have my first appointment with my counsellor on Friday. It's the same one I had before. I like her and trust her and have no problems opening up to her.
Does everyone experience "transference" in therapy? I don't think I ever have, does that mean it's not working for me?
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Hi Selkie,
It's so nice to see you back. I am glad that some of it was good for you. I know what you mean though about all that smiling!!!!
I was also worried about the expense of therapy. I can't really afford it but when I weighed it up against all the financial and emotional abuse, I began to think that it must be worth it at any cost...
I guess it's not always necessary to do the open wound stuff with the therapist. Maybe just the everyday things that are going on in the here and now are useful to examine also in terms of reaction and re framing stuff. I was so releived with this new therapist when she actually said that it was not enough just to know, but also to test changing behaviour and bring it to the session.
I know what you mean about being educated. It has helped me enormously being able to come here and speak with people who understand.
Sometimes transference just is... It will depend on the therapist and her orientation and how useful it is to you as to whether it is brought out into the open... i wouldn't worry too much about the theory, just go with the flow...
(Ha ha listen to me I sound like a sane personxxxx)
Spyralle x
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My understanding of transference is that it is only really working if you don't know you are doing it. It just feels "real" that the therapist is feeling xyz or acting xyz. Early in therapy in my 20's I got really furious at my therapist for judging me. She just sat there most of the time (she was that kind of therapist, which I needed then) with a nice expression on her face, quiet. It became clear to me she was being sarcastic and mocking me. Boy was I mad! I just really needed to let her know what I thought about all of her criticism :)
She handled it great and we really made progress that day. But it was only later that I realized what I had been doing. If she had told me at the time-- oh boy would I have stormed out of there indignantly.
I guess it goes without saying that my parents are sarcastic and critical and mocked me my whole childhood.
Humans are funny. We are so complicated.
Anyway, maybe some of your antipathy in previous therapy situations was transference. Who knows? It's definitely possible.
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Oh God! Tonight is so hard! :( :( :(
I miss him so much and all I can think about is the way he loved me. No one loved me as much as he did. He made me feel soooooo special. I just want to fall back into his arms and forget everything that has happened. It's so hard to be this new strong person. I miss what I had with him and I love him so much and am so attracted to him. I hope he doesn't ring me because I just might pick up. :cry:
He loved me so much and I just want to feel that again...
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
:oops:
Just four days til I see my counsellor, I hope I can hold out til then... I feel like I am going to break. I am not in a strong place.
Thanks for allowing me to offload...
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Hi Selkie! I totally relate to the place you may be stuck in now! Remember that Ns are incapable of loving- they're excellent actors and con artists . They learn how to go through the motions, read you for any vulnerability, and they know how to fake love. It's all about them and they're getting what they want at your expense- ALWAYS. If you've been- like me- addicted to love and relationships that are abusive and unhealthy- we are codependent. we are good at lying to ourselves, denying and rationalizing crazy making behaviours that a healthy person would never tolerate. My ex N is now calling me++ and leaving the old" oh baby...things will be different now..I see how I hurt you and it'll never happen again...you are the only woman who has ever understood me...you are my soulmate..." All B.S.!!! As people who have picked abusive relationships, we become addicted to the incredible highs and intensity and we come to believe no other man can ever give us those highs. We tend to find " normal" men boring. Focus on the lows and the incredible depression, self doubt, destructive and soul destroying crap we endure for lengthy periods of time after the sort lived honeymoon period is over. I actually found it helpful to put notes on my phone, computer etc reminding myself of the lying and abuse and tell myself not to answer the phone, not to return messages, not to respond to emails, not to answer my door should he arrive, not to talk to anyone who supports him. This is overwhelming at first but with each day, I find it getting easier and I'm getting stronger. There will always be days you feel so low you are tempted to call him. If I engage, I'm giving him the power to use and abuse me. If you have absolutely no contact with an N they will get bored and move on to another " source of Nicisstic supply". This term refers to Ns viewing all interactions in the context of using people who are vulnerable- treating us as objects because that's all we are to them- and then discarding their victims when they no longer have anything to offer. Ns always quickly find someone/ another group of people- to exploit. I also find it really empowering to start reconnecting with friends you may have neglected while with the N, going back to hobbies etc. you once loved but dropped because a N relationship is all consuming and meeting new healthy people. I'm getting back into my art, reading, going out, swimming. I'm actually meeting quite a few healthy people now- the first time in almost two years! I'm starting to like myself again, and in fact, feel like I'm back in touch with positive emotions- other than always being consumed with anger, pain, sadness, loneliness, self doubt etc. I hope this helps somehow. Keep posting here- we're all here to learn and support each other. I sent you an email in response to your email to me- but don't know if I sent it correctly! Let me know if you got it- if not, I'll send another one! Hang in there!!! a big hug and thinking of you!!! Moira
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(((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))) Oh I so badly feel for you . I know exactly where you are and the pain is so horrible. You said 'I love him so much and am so attracted to him'...... Selkie, are you attracted to him or the devasating feelings he leaves you with. This is familiarity. How scary is it to stand alone and value yourself. I know for me it is terrifying. Remember how you felt the other day after he assaulted you. Do you really want that......?? Moira is right any of the stuff that he comes out with that makes you feel special is nothing but B**lsh**. I am learning how good at acting these people are and it is shocking.... I know this is painful now but you are getting through it. Imagine yourself another three months down the line if you get back in contact with him. Remember I told you about my therapist asking what he would have to do to make me leave. and you said that assault would make you leave. Remember that. That was only a few days ago. don't let the memory of how you felt then get lost amidst the pain of being with yourself...
You are worth so much more than this. You are a special beautiful person who is worthy of a healthy life with healthy people who love you properly...
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Hi Selkie,
I agree with Moira. Make a list of all the awful things he has done. Leave copies lying around the house and look at it when you are feeling weak. Play some empowering music (Alanis Morissette or Gloria Gaynor). If you feel up to it, think through all the 'wonderful' things that happened and dissect them with the lies you know they consist of. Be strong. Your survival is at stake. Use the R word. He raped you. That is a crime. There is nothing loving about rape, ever. Could you force, coerce, humiliate, and hurt someone you loved? Can you imagine yourself doing the things he has done? Did it feel good when he raped you? Did it feel loving? Do you want it to happen again? Because if you go back, it will seem you are ok with it.
He has spun a lying story of your 'love' affair. You need to re-spin that story and make it into the true nightmare it was. Every so-called loving a wonderful experience needs to be reinterpreted based on your knowledge that this guy is a user, a loser, and and abuser. Do it in writing and it will be there as a resource for you later in weak moments.
Once the fiction of the 'loving relationship' is taken away, it might be easier to resist his advances and your responses. Good luck and I am pulling for you.
Plucky
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((((((Moira, Spyralle & Plucky))))))))
Thanks again for your support. I have been on a downward spiral since Monday. I put it down to spending all day Monday doing nothing but wallowing and now I recommend to all in the same situation that the key is to keep busy.
It seems you just dig a big trench sitting around thinking about it. It's much harder to get out of the trench once you've dug it.
I love the idea of remembering all the bad things he has done, because I normally don't hold on to anger for very long, and once it wears off I forgive and forget easily thus remembering only the good bits, which in turn lead to me craving him
I think I will make a list here too... Just for my own record...
1. He said to me "I normally go for glamourous girls but this time it's different..."
2. He said to me "I normally go for flashy girls but this time it's different..."
3. When we went out for a drink once, he approached a girl and told her she was so beautiful
On another occasion he sat with three girls whilst out with me and a friend
4. He tore my ipod headphones out of my ears once and broke them.
5. He wrote a letter on my bed sheet, in permanent ink, after I asked him to leave (because of the ipod situation)
6. He told me liked women with high-heels, this is when I was used to wear flats (I stupidly bought high-heels after this... cringe!)
7. He always stared at other women and commented on their beauty
8. He told me that he doesn't believe in monogamy
9. He told me he was addicted to porn for two years
10. When I asked him what are the ten most important things for him in life, among his list was
"seduction"
"locking eyes with someone across a crowded room"
11. He used to point out my spots/blackheads (-I don't have many, believe me)
12. We went out for drinks with my friend R***. They seemed to hit it off and I was relieved, they listened to the same ipod to some songs and he said to R***, I bet Selkie is jealous of us now...
13. He was very rough with me despite my asking him to stop
14. When I told him that I had a string of relationships that ended in abuse, he told me that I should look at how I contributed to it and that maybe I pushed people to it
15. He was physically and sexually violent
16. He went away for the weekend to a festival... When he returned i asked him if he'd been faithful, he replied "I'm really proud of myself because I was faithful to you"
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Yep Selkie I know that holding on to the good bits scenario....
! + 2. He clearly fails to see your depth and is obviously looking for some showy offy person to compliment his own arrogant self importance.
3. He is deliberately trying to unseat you and keep you unsure and off balance CONTROL
4. he is a selfish violent a**h**le who obviously thinks that HE should have everything and has no respect for others or their property. CONTROL
5. Spoilt selfish, again trying to damage yoour nice things because he is jealous
6. Again trying to keep you off balance. I did things like that on many occasions. It's all about them subtley subtly making you uncomfortable with the way you are to make themselves feel better. CONTROL
7. He knew this would wind you up and again start doubting yourself. CONTROL
8. I guess this will make you try harder to dedicate yourself to him and be that special one. It will also make you doubt yourself AGAIN!!! CONTROL
9. YUCK YUCK YUCK......... All about him....
10. Isn't seduction all about control???????????
11. CONTROL>>>>CONTROL>>>CONTROL
12,13,14,15,...............Control.......CONTROL.....ABUSIVE AND EMPTY AND SHALLOW AND VICIOUS CONTROL.....
He was a bit controlling wasn't he...................................
You on the other hand are deep and interesting and loving and compassionate..... People like him want to take that away because they are soooooo unable to do it. Feel really proud to be who you are and being as strong as you are being.
(((((((((((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Hang on in there xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Spyralle,
Thank you so much for taking the time to read that and to respond. I did that for my own benefit and didn't count on anyone else taking the time to read it!!!
You speak a lot about control. I guess in time I will see how he tried to control me. I am struggling to see how you diagnosed it as control. I'm sure therapy will open my eyes to it. My instincts told me the above behaviour was wrong.
I'm doing much better today, so much better. I don't imagine it will take me much longer now.
xx
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You speak a lot about control. I guess in time I will see how he tried to control me. I am struggling to see how you diagnosed it as control.
Hi Selkie,
I think this is about not letting you value yourself enough to think about what he was doing or not doing. If you are kept busy fretting over your own imaginary shortcomings, you will not see his own collossal faults. He controlled your ability to evaluate the relationship, therefore behave appropriately in it, by pushing your buttons. The buttons so conveniently created by others in your life. The buttons he looked for when he opened the package (how do I work this thing? oh yes). You ended up taking his word for what was going on, instead of seeing what a fraud he was/is.
I think.
Plucky
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Plucky, that is a very very valuable and perceptive insight... It makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks so much... growing up I was painfully shy around men, it wasn't til my mid twenties til I could actually be brave enough to talk to them! (Had to get really really drunk to be able to talk to them!) In every other area in life, I was confident and extremely outgoing so I never knew why I was like that around men. Anyway, I guess I was so busy trying to fix myself around men over the years, always trying to be this way or that, never being able to be myself and ALWAYS ALWAYS allowing them to dictate who I was and how I was behaving. I never thought for one minute that I was ok and maybe someone was taking me for a ride! I took their word as gospel. If they said I was being manipulative, then I would believe that etc...
I have never even given myself the opportunity to ask myself if I liked the person (ie. once I got to know them)! If they loved me, then I would stay with them what ever it took...
Thanks for giving me something to ponder over...
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Hi Selkie,
Ok let me tell you what I meant by control (I did get a bit carried away didn't I, I wanted to punch him!!!!!). I guess if somebody keeps you believing that you are not quite good enough, not really up to standard a little bit faulty, and you believe them instead of walking away, then there is the control. If you don't feel you meet his requirements then people like you and me will try harder to do so. hence the high heels etc... if we try harder then, as Plucky quite rightly says he can do or be what he likes because you are too busy trying to be what he likes to notice. If he starts critisising you and you buy into that then he knows that he can always be on top of the situation. After all if you are prepared to change yourself for him then he must be very powerful indeed. I think that that is like a drug to people like him because inside they are inadequate little men (or women).
In my case I always judge myself by the person I am with. If he is happy I am happy. If he is miserable or angry it must be me. If he does not like something about me I had better change it or he may leave. It sounds like we are very similar. When you said that if they loved you you would stay whatever it took you were spot on. Thing about me though is I have tried sometimes to go out with guys who are nice, but then I end up driving them away. My therapist told me that this was because, as Groucho Marx said....."I would not want to be part of any club that wanted me as it's member"...
Spyralle xxxxxx
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Hi Spyralle,
how are you doing today? I do indeed think we are very similiar in ways... I think we both lack self esteem MAJORLY
I had my first session with my therapist today! I think I am definately going to stick with it, and I sense it will be beneficial. I think I am ready for it for the first time in my life.
My only problem is that I really want to remember what was said and the points and discoveries we made during the session, but I am finding real difficulty remembering them :( ...it's like trying to remember a dream
Do you think I should jot down some stuff next week or would that break the flow of things? I feel therapy can only work if you can take something home to chew on...
She puts the bad relationship thing down to self esteem (among other things) I told her that I didn't think I lacked self esteem/self worth as I know I deserve better etc, well the thing i proceeded to say after that totally contradicted this... and I cannot remember what I said!!! but it revealed a deep deep lack of self esteem and I didn't even realise it until she pointed it out! It blew me away... I'm gutted I can't remember. Therapy is so abstract.
We talked a little about transference. I told her it would never happen between us, i think she is hoping it will, but I know I won't put any of my stuff on her. I only put my stuff on men! I hope I am proved wrong. She said if I ever do, that we will work through it...
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Hi Selkie,
I'm glad you held out and saw your therapist today. What an achievement after the other night! I have the same problem in therapy. Sometimes I want to think about it later and when I try it seems to have vanished into the ether. i wouldn't take notes because you would be so busy on that that the focus would change. Maybe you could do it as soon as you have left if you don't want to forget. Maybe it isn't about taking it home Selkie. Maybe it is about taking it in. Sometimes the interaction in therapy is not all on a conscious level. What orientation is your therapist? it's funny isn't it when you know inside that the treatment of you is not right and that you deserve better, but then you carry on regardless. Subconscious behaviour versus conscious thinking I guess....
As for the transference that you seem determined not to have with her. I wonder if that is part of the transference (Just a thought!)..
Oh God I'm getting a bit too technical for myself now...
As for me.... have you watched any episodes of Coronation Street lately. i was watching it the other night and there was a bit that really triggered something for me. Shelley had been sitting on the stairs listening to Charlie seducing another woman in the back room. To cut a long story short and apologies to everyone from USA, he very cleverly blamed her and gave himself a reason to leave. there she was sitting on the bed in her pyjamas pleading with him and he just rolled over and turned away. The day after my ex had called me a sad f**k in front of all my friends, I was in the exact same scenario. Sitting on the bed in my PJ's begging him and apologising..... whilst he just blamed me and turned away....
Spyrale xxxxxx
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I had my first session with my therapist today! I think I am definately going to stick with it, and I sense it will be beneficial. I think I am ready for it for the first time in my life.
My only problem is that I really want to remember what was said and the points and discoveries we made during the session, but I am finding real difficulty remembering them :( ...it's like trying to remember a dream
Do you think I should jot down some stuff next week or would that break the flow of things? I feel therapy can only work if you can take something home to chew on...
She puts the bad relationship thing down to self esteem (among other things) I told her that I didn't think I lacked self esteem/self worth as I know I deserve better etc, well the thing i proceeded to say after that totally contradicted this... and I cannot remember what I said!!! but it revealed a deep deep lack of self esteem and I didn't even realise it until she pointed it out! It blew me away... I'm gutted I can't remember. Therapy is so abstract.
We talked a little about transference. I told her it would never happen between us, i think she is hoping it will, but I know I won't put any of my stuff on her. I only put my stuff on men! I hope I am proved wrong. She said if I ever do, that we will work through it...
Selkie, I had the same difficulty when I started therapy, too. I could not remember what I discussed or throught about as soon as the session was over. I think that is actually pretty common. If your T is decent they should be able help to "hold on" to what goes on in the session for you. That is one part of their purpose. Also, one of the things that I needed a lot of practice to learn was "finding my way back" to important issues. I often felt like I lost them during that period of time. But, if it was important to me it would come up again at some point.
Hang in there, things will get better even if you can't see it right now. If you can remember, you should tell your T about feeling this way in your next session. This is good information for them to know what is going on for you.
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Hi Spyralle :)
What orientation is your therapist?
She is a pyschodynamic and psychoanalysis therapist.
I got her from the BACP website.
it's funny isn't it when you know inside that the treatment of you is not right and that you deserve better, but then you carry on regardless. Subconscious behaviour versus conscious thinking I guess....
This is something that absolutely fascinates me! ...and realising this is what finally brought me to see the therapist. I am conscious in all my dealings with people but as soon as I get myself into a romantic relationship with a man, I move into my subconscious mind. This is one of the reasons why I am always in a state of confusion in a relationship and I don't always know what is reality and what is in my mind! :?
The conscious part of me stands aside and looks on in horror! ha ha!
It is interesting as I have never LIKED the men I have been with. I loved them (at least I thought I did) but they were all horrible people. My recent ex, when I met him, I thought he was an arrogant a**hole and everyone around me agreed. He continued to be throughout the relationship too. But I adored him. All the while my conscious mind knew and warned me but was pushed aside, and the subconscious mind took over: "Let me have him! I have unfinished business with him!" *in goes the a**hole and the door slams*
I guess your conscious mind is attached to your soul, and your subconscious is your old self (child) the past with all your unhealed wounds and warts and slime and goo...
I want to have a conscious relationship. Then at least if they are unsuitable men, I can walk away happily, rather than shifting into the subconscious and allowing them in. This is my goal. I will achieve it. Awareness is the first step.
As for the transference that you seem determined not to have with her. I wonder if that is part of the transference (Just a thought!)......
Hmmm... It crossed my mind. But then...
Y'see, let me explain. I said to my therapist that there is no way I would ever ever ever experience transference with her.
The reason is that I would never reach such an intimate place with her, I would never and could never get to the place where I would depend on her completely. There is no way she could ever let me down no matter what she said or did, because she doesn't have any power over me. I just don't experience that need with anyone other than men... the reason being, is that I could only ever have a healthy relationship with her.
I trust her completely, have no problem being open with her, and I like her. I feel the exact same way with my many friends whom are amazing and supportive. I don't depend on them like I depend on a man. It's a different kettle of fish. I don't think any of my friends could hurt me either. I know that I am a nice person when I am with them, I treat them with respect and I am confident that I am a very good friend. I know for a fact that I would never give them any reason to be nasty to me, so if they were, I would have no qualms or conflict about saying goodbye.
In other words, I am conscious in my dealings with her. She doesn't represent anyone (other than my therapist) to me. She is my therapist and I would never put a mask on her and pretend she was someone else.
I think I am going to have to explore this one with her next week, because reading back over what I wrote, there is a lot going on!!!! :? I am suddenly filled with fear. :shock:
I'm not sure I'm liking this whole therapy thing. It's isolating me and I am afraid I am going to get depressed.
Spyralle, The coronation street thing is very sad! Do you utilise this time to your best advantage? Are you writing down all the bad things that you remember about him? You need to start realising and drumming it in to your head what a horrible person he is. Constantly be on the search for the horrible things he has done or said to you and keep making notes. This really works for me. There will be a time when you will forget the horrible things, and you may need another Pr**k to come and show you what they are again and you don't want to go down that road! Stop looking at him with rose tinted glasses and you won't feel the need to call him. Take off those glasses and start concentrating on you and how he hurt you. You have a lot of mental energy now for this, use it to your advantage. This is the only thing that makes me not want to call my ex. Educate yourself about him, bring yourself back to your conscious mind.
Hi Longtire :): thanks for that. I will mention it to her. I think at the moment there is soooooooooo much stuff that needs sorting that there is bound to be a bit of mess. It's like a big huge messy office that has been caught up in a tornado. -I just don't know where to start in the cleanup! no wonder I am forgetting where I put things. Now where did I put that... :)
Sorry for the epic post, had no idea it was going to turn out like this!
Selkie
xx
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The other night, I had a glass of wine with the new man in my life, and all of a sudden I became overwhelmed by this image that came into my head, I felt like I was a delicate flower in the palm of his hand waiting to be crushed. I had a lump in my throat! I felt powerless.
Sorry for being particularly self-obsessed today!! :oops:
I have one more thing to add....
I was reading back over my thread to see if I could see any progress, i came across the above quote, which I said a few months ago, I totally forgot I said that and now it has a special meaning for me...
The other day, I went into work to pick up something (I lost my job because of my exN who I used to work with) and I saw a collegue outside having a smoke. He greets me and says "so what happened to you, why did you leave us?" and I told him very briefly and without any badmouthing or anything that it was to do with my EX and my collegue said to me in broken English-can't remember where he is from now- "you are a precious flower who needs to be watered and taken care of, that man has no idea how to do that, you get yourself someone who will treat you well"
...so when I read that thing about the flower, it kinda had special meaning for me... :)
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Selkie,
I have been reading your discussion re your therapist with interest. I think I have some of the same issues (or at least I did when all of this started), which is why I felt more comfortable with a male therapist. I actually surround myself with males in all aspects--attorney, accountant, insurance agent, real estate agent, etc. Sub-consciously I don't think a woman is going to do as good a job for me. How stupid is that, but I know that I think that way somewhere down deep. I would guess that it has something to do with not ever feeling protected or cared for by my father, so I bring in all these replacement fathers to help me in my life.
I do think, however, that it was in my best interest to have a male therapist and I have experienced a lot of transference with him. It has certainly done a great deal towards breaking my cycle of choosing those dangerous men with whom to form a love relationship.
I hope you're feeling better. It sounds like the therapy will help a lot. Try not to be afraid of it.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Brigid- :shock: :shock: :shock:
Damn! I'm freaking out now, maybe I should have gotten a man counsellor? :shock: I only have that problem with men after all! It makes so much sense to go to a man!
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I want to have a conscious relationship. Then at least if they are unsuitable men, I can walk away happily, rather than shifting into the subconscious and allowing them in. This is my goal. I will achieve it. Awareness is the first step.
You're already ahead of the game!
Y'see, let me explain. I said to my therapist that there is no way I would ever ever ever experience transference with her.
The reason is that I would never reach such an intimate place with her, I would never and could never get to the place where I would depend on her completely. There is no way she could ever let me down no matter what she said or did, because she doesn't have any power over me. I just don't experience that need with anyone other than men... the reason being, is that I could only ever have a healthy relationship with her.
Transference happens inevitably in all human interactions. It's just a word for "projections between people." She has transferences as well. It's her job to look at the transference, you don't have to do anything except talk to her.
In other words, I am conscious in my dealings with her. She doesn't represent anyone (other than my therapist) to me. She is my therapist and I would never put a mask on her and pretend she was someone else.
I find myself thinking he is judging me, bored, and wishing I were a different patient. These thoughts could easily be dismissed the instant I think them, but I've trained myself to admit their significance and even tell him. You may find it interesting to notice your emotional reactions to this woman. It may surprise you.
I'm not sure I'm liking this whole therapy thing. It's isolating me and I am afraid I am going to get depressed.
I hope you can tell her.
bunny
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Hi Selkie,
I think you can get something out of either gender. I think it depends more on the therapeutic realationship than the gender. Cos of course you could say that the underlying problem is your narcissistic mother and this affects your relationship with men, so what may happen with a woman in therapy is just as valuable. Then again when I had a male therapist I used to bring into the relationship some of the stuff that I brought into my relationships with men which was very useful. It's funny I actually now think that particular therapist was quite abusive. he was the one who I went to see a few weeks ago and he let me spill for an hour then said he had no slots.... he was extremely narcissistic. At least that is what I think now!!!! and he said some quite innappropriate things. of course that would not be true of all men which brings me back to my point that if a therapist is good either gender would have a useful role.
i am hoping to have a safe experience with my new therapist who is a woman. i am hoping that I will be able to test out behaviours and make mistakes and not be abandoned or abused...
i think you are right about a conscious relationship. Trouble is sommetimes I completely ignore the conscious and the unconscious goes on overdrive. I can think of loads of times when I have literally been propelled into doing something whilst my brain is screaming at me to put the breaks on. i can clearly remember going to meet a guy who I so knew ws wrong. i was driving over to his house and Chris Rea was on the radio singing "The road to Hell"..... I was singing along in joyous rebellion.... Oh dear.... and look at me now!!!!!
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Hi Longtire :): thanks for that. I will mention it to her. I think at the moment there is soooooooooo much stuff that needs sorting that there is bound to be a bit of mess. It's like a big huge messy office that has been caught up in a tornado. -I just don't know where to start in the cleanup! no wonder I am forgetting where I put things. Now where did I put that... :)
Selkie, that sounds REALLY familiar. It sounds like you can tell your T ANY of this and maybe it will help clear up the office a little bit. It will all come up eventually, anyway. Go with what's there at the moment. Make a list if you want to.
P.S. Tell your T about the fear, isolation and fear of depression as well. 8)
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Good Morning! :)
Bunny said: Transference happens inevitably in all human interactions. It's just a word for "projections between people." She has transferences as well. It's her job to look at the transference, you don't have to do anything except talk to her.
Thanks for simplifying that Bunny, the way you put it is so much easier to grasp and now for the first time I understand it fully. I guess it's your perception of what they are thinking about you or what you're talking about. Just because you feel that way, doesn't mean it's true, it could be a manifestation of your feelings about yourself... and this is something to explore!
Now that I know what it is, I imagine I will experience that with her. I experienced such things with my old counsellors, most of the time I felt they weren't listening to me. In fact I felt that about the majority of people in my life a few years ago, so much so that it began to affect my speech and I stopped speaking mid-sentence, or I would stumble and stammer and lose my train of thought and get so flustered that they actually did lose interest; they'd yawn or change the subject. (There's a horrible self-fulfilling prophesy involved with transference, if it is to be given power) My mother never listened to me growing up. She would pretend to but when you would test her about what you said, she would fail miserably! :evil:
Thankfully, this passed by itself... and I found my voice.
Transference... as I have said earlier, I am lucky that I don't have problems with my friends and I very rarely (in fact I can't remember an incident other than the one above) experience transference with them. It's because I feel so loved, cared for and listened to when I am with them. I wonder is it safe to say that you only experience transference in unhealthy relationships, or relationships where you feel uneasy or insecure. I think my romantic relationships have possibly been filled with transference as well as everything else.
Bunny said: "...but I've trained myself to admit their significance and even tell him. You may find it interesting to notice your emotional reactions to this woman"
I think I will do this. Somebody said it only works if you are unaware it is happening, but I think it would only work if I can see myself doing it, only then can I question it and pinpoint it in the future. This transference can be quite destructive and powerful if you believe it to be reality.
It must be stopped!!!!!! :lol:
...that is... it must be explored in therapy, but aware of it when it happens in relationships...
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I am not sure you can realize you are transfering versus having a "real" reaction-- all you can do is pass on your reactions and work from there. You may be being too hard on yourself! And if you are looking for transference during the entire session it will be hard to relax and just go with the whole thing. Transference is a part of all relationships, just sort of another word for "perception." None of our perceptions are objective-- they are formed by our own brain which has its own qualities to it. In a sense our whole existence is a big ink blot test a projection. (Now I sound like gnostic-- sorry!).
I would say let yourself go a little, let the therapy flow and report what you are feeling when you feel it, say what you want to when you want to. Letting go is scary, but it might be relaxing for you, too. It's the one place you really can do that!
As for genders, it's very interesting. I love the idea of exploring my relationships with men in therapy, so my last two therapists were men. But it didn't work! I sort of just charmed them and they coddled me. I felt like a million dollars leaving their office every time, but I didn't get very much out of the therapy. I tried to talk to them about it but it didn't work. I think they found me intimidating. Here is a sexist comment, and I apologize for it, but I think there are statistically more effective female than male therapists. I've seen it in my friends who are therapists, and through my friends who go to therapists. I could be wrong! I probably am wrong. But it has been my experience.
Your therapist sounds good-- why not stick with her for now? You can learn all sorts of stuff from her. After all, she herself has relationships; you can try to figure out what makes a good relationship from a woman's side of things, what that looks like, how to recognize a good may, how to integrate childhood into adult relationships.
I am thinking I should go back to therapy... all that sounds so good... :D
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Just because you feel that way, doesn't mean it's true, it could be a manifestation of your feelings about yourself... and this is something to explore!
You've got it.
Transference... as I have said earlier, I am lucky that I don't have problems with my friends and I very rarely (in fact I can't remember an incident other than the one above) experience transference with them. It's because I feel so loved, cared for and listened to when I am with them. I wonder is it safe to say that you only experience transference in unhealthy relationships, or relationships where you feel uneasy or insecure. I think my romantic relationships have possibly been filled with transference as well as everything else.
With your friends, the transference is positive. You aren't going to analyze it, because you aren't feeling distressed. But there is transference there. let me clarify: Transference is NOT A BAD THING. it is NOT destructive or wrong. It is NOT pathological. It's how human beings are hard-wired to interact. In therapy transference is explored - that is the only difference between transference there and everywhere else. Again, I don't understand why your T mentioned it to you, because it is pretty threatening for a therapist to even say that word. Mine have never used that word to me and they are psychoanalytic. I would tell her that it bothered me if she were my T.
...I think it would only work if I can see myself doing it, only then can I question it and pinpoint it in the future. This transference can be quite destructive and powerful if you believe it to be reality.
It must be stopped!!!!!!...that is... it must be explored in therapy, but aware of it when it happens in relationships...
You've got it again!
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Bunny said: ..."Again, I don't understand why your T mentioned it to you, because it is pretty threatening for a therapist to even say that word. Mine have never used that word to me and they are psychoanalytic. I would tell her that it bothered me if she were my T".
Just to set the record straight and to come to the defense of my T, she didn't actually use that word with me, she just sort of said that if I am experiencing any feelings towards her and if I feel for any reason that I can't trust her or depend on her (Because I stopped going to therapy last year with her for no reason :? ) to let her know and we can explore those feelings together etc, I said "oh you mean like transference...." she smiled because I think she is tickled that I am doing my research!!!!
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As for genders, it's very interesting. I love the idea of exploring my relationships with men in therapy, so my last two therapists were men. But it didn't work! I sort of just charmed them and they coddled me. I felt like a million dollars leaving their office every time, but I didn't get very much out of the therapy. I tried to talk to them about it but it didn't work. I think they found me intimidating. Here is a sexist comment, and I apologize for it, but I think there are statistically more effective female than male therapists. I've seen it in my friends who are therapists, and through my friends who go to therapists. I could be wrong! I probably am wrong. But it has been my experience.
I've had woman therapists who were cold, unempathic and destructive. And I've had warm, effective woman therapists. Now, I'm seeing for the first time, a male T. He has excellent boundaries, is very smart, and really good. I have huge transference issues with him regarding my ideas of what he's thinking/feeling during the session. I think this is useful. His bedside manner isn't maternal, but we can't have everything. Anyway my conclusion is that both genders can be excellent therapists if they know their stuff.
bunny
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I want to go to your therapist, Bunny!
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Hi All :(
I had a two large glasses of wine last night with a friend. I then proceeded to go home. I was feeling quite affected by the wine and I sent a text to my EX who then called me and the rest is history...
I have descended into relapse....
I am now disgusted with myself, and am feeling like all my hard work is gone out the window. I am more confused than ever before. I thought I was doing very well and out of danger.
I don't know what came over me and I feel like it's going to ruin the work I've been doing with my therapist too.
I'm a write off
...a mess
:(
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(((((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))))))))
itwould be good for you to remember here that a lapse does not necessarily need to be a relapse. To lapse into old behaviour is normal. If we did not have that potential we would not be in the place we are in now. It's what you do with it now. It sounds like you have not descended fully into a relapse situation because you are posting here. Do you think that you could stop it before it really gets going.
Remind yourself sweetie of all the pain he has put you through, the night of the assault and look again at the list you made to re read those horrible things he said to you that hurt you. Just because you have lapsed does not make this situation un salvageable. You have survived without him Selkie. You are worth more than him..... he does not have to be in control of you. You can take control. It is hard and it is painful, but so will the outcome of this be if he gets a hold on you again. There is a life for you oput here Selkie. One where you are strong and beautiful and have a right to be treated the way you deserve.
Keep posting....
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Do you think that you could stop it before it really gets going.
Thanks Spyralle, I am in floods of tears here after reading your post. I don't think I can stop it now. It's too late now we have made contact... I should have thought of that before I initiated contact.
I will have to wait for the next explosive episode to start again. How messed up this is, I wish I were where you are Spyralle. I want to be back where I was this time yesterday, but I am powerless. I don't even like him, he is such a phony...
I hate myself for this.
I look forward to my appointment with counsellor on Friday.
Thanks for your kind words
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Selkie,
It is not too late to break it off before anything happens again. Trust me, I would have hooked up with my ex after the break-up if he would have allowed it. Fortunately, for me, he was too besotted with his married girlfriend at the time and wanted nothing to do with me.
Please don't wait for him to hurt you again. There is new life out there, with really wonderful men, but you have to get yourself healthy so you can find them. Is it possible for you to leave town for a couple of days and just get away from the situation? This guy is toxic and he is taking a little bit of you each time you re-engage him. You deserve better, but you can't see that right now. You know what your therapist is going to tell you. Don't wait for her to say it--say it to yourself. You have the strength--dig down deep to find it and break away.
I'm praying for you.
Blessings,
Brigid
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I am meeting him at 4pm today, I will speak to him then. I will ask for some time and then try to get away from him again.
Last night when we got together, I realised it was not love but an addiction. I have never realised it so acutely before and I think that the world is still unaware of how we can be addicted to people and it can have the same destructive effects as if it were a drug.
There is a huge "High" involved, at least there was last night, now I'm coming down. I need to talk to my therapist about that "High"... because I don't understand it
I will try to regain what I have lost. I just feel like I am down now (as in fallen down) so I kind of may as well stay here.
ok i will try
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Hi Selkie! Read your posts. Don't think of this contact as a relapse. As a recovering addict, I've had my share of using again and I've found it really powerful and comforting to look at them as situations I can learn from. for example taking a good look at the triggers that prompt the ersuming old familiar destructive patterns. Always a positive lesson here and I'm hopeful your therapist can help you see some positive stuff in this. don't beat your self up- often easier said than done, I know. I contacted my ex N for his birthday and sent a cake. Tons of emails, phone calls etc. I have ignored them all. I think I mentioned ? on other threads that for me- being visual- it's really been helpful to leave many written reminders of all the horrible painful things he's done and said to me- on the computer, on the phone, on my door, on my bathroom mirror etc. I not only write all the b.s. out but also include how it made me feel, did it stop( of course not!) and what I learned from it( even if it's intellectual only at this point and not connected yet with awareness and emotions and the impact it's made on your life). I've also joined a support group for codependents and am really finding this extremely helpful. I have names and numbers of other women and can call them at any time to talk. helps to call before you break your resolve- or immediately after, if you've acted on it. we are only doing what we know and it's not our fault that we were never taught healthy positive communication skills, values, and ever knowing our own self worth and that we all deserve nothing short of healthy, non destructive behaviour. I'm sure most of us totally relate to where you are in your recovery- yes, I use NA and AA terms because constantly choosing harmful relationships with damaged men IS an ADDICTION. The good news here is, like drugs and alcohol, we CAN LIVE WITHOUT DAMAGING RELATIONSHIPS!!! We need to learn the tools and skills for this. I always feel guilty and shamed when I disclose to my shrink any contact I've initiated with my N, but she's always been supportive, understanding, and is very good at reframing these situations to explore the positive learning that can be had. I've found it enlightening and very encouraging. For example , I was freaked out intially even discussing my N and the behavoiur I endured, but she said to me- You know, in the past you would have spent years trying to " fix them" and sacrifice yourself, but this time you kicked him out 5 months after putting all the puzzle pieces together...and you didn't marry him"!!! She was also good at exploring with me the origins of my codependent behavour, lots of family of origin stuff and other experiences that destroy self esteem and trust. DON'T BE ASHAMED!!! Also remember that destruction, pain,etc is HIS M.O. and not yours!!!
Try and be good to yourself- he won't ever be. Also, being addicted to the highs and lows- and there is no other pattern with Ns- is all part of the addiction and codependence. Again, this addiction is the same as drug addiction and all addictions come from abandonment, neglect and abuse by your family when you were a child- and helpless, powerless, voiceless. HANG IN< KEEP POSTING AND BE GOOD TO YOURSELF_ YOU DESERVE RESPECT- TRUST, HAPPINESS- PEACE AND LOVE!!!!! Moira
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Selkie,
Whatever you choose to do we will be hanging in here and supporting you throughout...
keep posting...
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Hi Moira and Spyralle and all, :(
Thanks so much for your support.
Well, he just left this morning, we have spent the last three days together. I went to see my counsellor yesterday. I told her immediately what happened. I was crying all through our session, was devastated with myself and how powerless I felt. I think she was disappointed in me as I was doing so well. I felt that our session was wasted in a way as I couldn't concentrate on what she was saying about my childhood and the reasons this is happening- my head felt like it was going to explode. I have been feeling incredibly anxious and down as well.
My Ex has been very supportive and understanding and loving. He does have this side to him, he wants to do everything in his power to make me happy. He cancelled all his plans for the weekend to stay with me. He is showering me with love and affection. I tried to end it yesterday morning but couldn't follow through with the final departure. He cries inconsolably when I try to break up and then I cry and it's so painful for both of us that we get back together in consoling each other. -A classic co-dependant relationship.
He mentioned suicide very briefly saying that he might do it someday. I know he would never have the power to LEAVE ME... this is why my counsellor thinks I am with him. She believes I have huge abandonment issues deeply ingrained in me, along with lack of self worth and feelings that I am unlovable.
Anyway, this is where the problem lies...
Basically it's either my Ex or my Counsellor...
I can't have the two.
I mean, say I was a heroin addict right? I go to counselling to help me kick the habit. But first surely I need to abstain, then go through counselling to help me find the strength to sustain that abstinence and find out why I am doing it and how I can prevent it and to heal from it etc...
I can't go to counselling and then go and shoot up right after... that's a cop out surely, and that's what I am doing.
So... basically I put myself in the position where I gave myself an ultimatum. I said to my counsellor that when I come back for my next session (Tue, ie. 4days!) that I will have got rid of him.
I am feeling a little better now that he has gone. I don't ever want to see him again but I don't want to actually break up with him officially. I hate the whole ceremonial side of it. Oh to be able to sneak away without being noticed... It's the repercussions I am terrified of... Could I kind of ease things off a little now and maybe slowly break up?
A new layer has grown onto this relationship and that is one of pity. I haven't felt this way before. I feel so sorry for him now. He bought some peaches for me this weekend, and put them in a bowl and put them in my room for me. It fills me with excrutiating painful pity when I look at them now. I don't know what has come over me but I am in floods of tears because of this bowl of peaches!!!!!!!!! :cry:
:?:
-He had such a rough time growing up. His father punched him in the face constantly.
I guess my Ex is keeping me in this place... and maybe I am keeping him in that place. bottom line is that the relationship is not doing either of us any good. In three days I have lost my power, energy, self confidence, self esteem, even my looks are beginning to slip.
I have lost my job also.
Does anyone have any advice? Any nugget will do and I just might try to sever it with him this time.
Do I have to see him face to face to break up? -because it doesn't work!
Can I not explain by email?
Does anyone recommend Co-dependant Anonymous, what happens in these meetings and would I have to talk, (I don't want to)
Does anyone know if such a thing exists in London? Or is it an american thing?
Sorry for sounding desperate, i guess i kinda am though. This is probably a good thing, i am finally in the situation where I have to face all my fears and my demons--
There is no more hiding, no more running away, I have to face this
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Hi All,
it's me again!
Just want to let you know that I called him and told him that I can't go back with him, I also sent him a long email to back this up. I am going to a CoDA meeting tomorrow. I am in a terrible mess, but I have moments of relief.
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Selkie,
Your counselor wouldn't judge you for feeling ambivalent about your boyfriend. She would never ask you to choose between him and her. She wouldn't judge you for taking a step back - ALL THERAPY CLIENTS DO THIS. She totally understands (or should) your unconscious reasons for going backward. Please be easy on yourself. Instead of threatening suicide, your ex should be telling you he will get HELP FOR HIMSELF. That would show commitment on his side. But that's his issue. You're getting help and that is great.
Keep posting,
bunny
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This is probably a good thing, i am finally in the situation where I have to face all my fears and my demons--
I think you know this to be true. Yes, it is a good thing. As strange as it sounds......just throw yourself on the jagged edges of this pain. Be brave. You will not die.......well, actually, your old self may (the one you are so dissapointed in).
You are already MILES AHEAD of most people. Please believe that. Why do I think that? Because you are soooo very brave. You are looking this monster (fear) in the face and not running away again. (into his arms....into blaming your past, whatever escape fits).
I think you are amazing. You are doing the hardest work of your life right now. This struggle will save you. You are powerful. You can do this.
(((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))
Sending you love and light.
PS: I also sent him a long email to back this up
You didn't need to do this, but you are a kind person, so you explained. It's okay. It may allow him to "counter explain", but you can take it! Just set a boundary in place....."I need to heal and cannot do this relationship at the moment" might help. (or maybe that WAS your explanation, right?). Hang in there. You will be fine.
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Hi Selkie,
I am so pleased to read your post and know that you are still kicking away at this... Bunny is so right when she says that this is not an either or thing. Your counsellor is there to help you process whatever is going on for you.. There is no question of you having to do 'the right thing' to carry on seeing her. I guess an impotant part of the counselling process is that you work on things as they arise. If they were not to arise, you would not be caught up in these patterns in the first place.
You made me cry when I read about the bowl of peaches. You are so like me. I have held on like that to the little thing that my ex did that meant so much to me and chosen to completely ignore the massive bad things that he did to suck the life out of me.
In terms of heroin addiction, and I think really that your comparison is spot on. i have worked with many people who do exactly that.... Come to a session and then go and use. The thing for me is not always about immediate abstinence. I think that to expect that from someone who has a very intense relationship with whatever their addiction of choice is, is sometimes unrealistic. Often that substance or in our case person, defines who they are. The use of it is necessary for daily living and then when it is taken away that person often starts to fragment. This of course as we know is terrifying so the first thing to do would be to reach for the very thing that we believe keeps us from feering that terror.....The familiar. So a heroin addict whose goes off to score after a session, if he is really motivated to change will return to work on why and what it was that made them do that. Of course they may go down the slippery slope of thinking that because they had lapsed once they were a worthless disaster and may as well carry on, but what better way to work on something than when it is actually happening...
What you are experiencing now is giving you rich content for your therapy sessions and if you choose to you can use it...
i have absolute faith that you can do this Selkie. To me it doesn't matter how you actually break up. The important person here is you. You deserve a safe and happy life in which you are simply loved for who you are. ((((((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))))))))))
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Selkie, I think you are doing a great job of facing a lot of painful and just plain yucky stuff. I can attest that progress is NOT one foot after another it is one step forward, five steps back. One step forward, three steps back. One step forward. One step back. One step forward. Two steps forward, one step back. Well, you already know this...
Do whatever you can to take care of yourself through this. Get an extra 1/2 hour of sleep even once a week. Eat as healthy as you can for energy. Get some light excercise or go out for a walk. What you are doing is Work with a capital "W" and you need all the energy and rest you have to deal with it. The good news is that every step forward you take makes the next forward step easier to take. Even if you have some steps back in between. It only gets easier from here. Don't beat yourself up about those backward steps. They are a natural part of the process and you wouldn't be human like the rest of us if you "skipped" that part. :)
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Does anyone have any advice? Any nugget will do and I just might try to sever it with him this time.
Do I have to see him face to face to break up? -because it doesn't work!
hi selkie.
im so glad to hear you are doing better now. i am only writing becuase there are a few things i was reminded of reading your situation, that have helped me at junctures such as this before....... just ideas......
first.. i dont think you do have to break up with him..... you can just kind of...... phase out..... just dont answer the phone so fast..... be busy when he calls more...... just dont be available. wean him off of you (and you off of him) he may resist this but, theres not much he can do if you just dont respond and slowly fade out of his life......... chances are 100% he will resist and it will be hard for you but, theres no law you have to be there every single time he wants you to be. right? doing the slow wean is totally acceptable way to 'break up'.
It's the repercussions I am terrified of... Could I kind of ease things off a little now and maybe slowly break up?
i truly dont see why not. sometimes a direct confrontation is just asking for a mess.
I feel so sorry for him now. He bought some peaches for me this weekend, and put them in a bowl and put them in my room for me. It fills me with excrutiating painful pity when I look at them now. I don't know what has come over me but I am in floods of tears because of this bowl of peaches!!!!!!!!! :cry:
:?:
-He had such a rough time growing up. His father punched him in the face constantly.
OK : this was a big thing i had to learn with my daughters father. i can love him very much. i can feel sympathy, empathy, caring, ten million wonderful things, and i can and will love him, as i do, until i die, which i will (hes not an n, just difficult) BUT NONE OF THAT MEANS I HAVE TO EITHER BE HIS DOORMAT OR ACCEPT UNHEALTHY BEHAVIOR.
i can love him until the cows come home, and still draw the line at unacceptable *behavior*.
you can love this person totally, and feel total sympathy for everything hes been through, but that will *never* mean you have to let him treat you in a way that you are not ok with...... and no matter what hes been through, if he cannot pull it together to treat you properly, -consistently- not just when he is afraid he is losing you, he is not ready to be in a relationship anyway...... mho.
stopping seeing him doesnt have to mean you dont care for him...... it just means this isnt working for you, and you want something different for your own safety and health!
if he really loves you..... you know what..... he will support that. honest to g-d.
Can I not explain by email?
dont explain! just dont be there.
take care and very very very best of luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i think your doing great in a really bad spot.
d'smom
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good evening all!
Thank you to Longtire, Bunny, Mum, D'smum and Spyralle for your support and advice.
Well, I am still in contact with my Ex, he phones a lot everyday but I have managed to keep him away from visiting me. I didn't exactly break up with him yet, well I did and then he sort of roped me in again. I don't think I can handle an absolute clean break right now. I am not making him any promises.
I am torn in two with how to deal with the situation.
Thoughts/Triggers that keep me with him
- I feel I will always feel anxious in a relationship, so this is something I just have to work through
- i feel like I need someone like him, someone who needs me badly, who would never abandon me, anything less than this, would make me feel insecure and unloved. I need to be the one in control of the situation (though I would never abuse that power)
- He talks about our future together and how amazing it would be, he is talking about living together and describes the flat and our lives...he paints a happy picture
I know the above is completely messed up. This is me right now, this is where I am at. I know it's distorted and twisted. It is an unhealthy place to be. yeuck!
Bunny said: Your counselor wouldn't judge you for feeling ambivalent about your boyfriend. She would never ask you to choose between him and her. She wouldn't judge you for taking a step back - ALL THERAPY CLIENTS DO THIS. She totally understands (or should) your unconscious reasons for going backward. Please be easy on yourself.
I realise this now, though I thought I would have to give him up in order to continue. I guess we have a lot to work on now that he is half in, half out of the picture. If I could only learn how to cut that cord that binds us together, it's the last step. I told my counsellor that I want him to punch me in the face this time so I can have a reason to hate him again thus having a fresh opportunity to leave. It's very very difficult for me to leave him on good terms. I actually don't think it's possible at all, as I buckle when he pleads. I am not strong enough. Maybe I will learn how. The main thing right now is keeping him at arms length I guess.
Mum said: I think you know this to be true. Yes, it is a good thing. As strange as it sounds......just throw yourself on the jagged edges of this pain. Be brave. You will not die.......well, actually, your old self may (the one you are so dissapointed in).
You are already MILES AHEAD of most people. Please believe that. Why do I think that? Because you are soooo very brave. You are looking this monster (fear) in the face and not running away again. (into his arms....into blaming your past, whatever escape fits).
I think you are amazing. You are doing the hardest work of your life right now. This struggle will save you. You are powerful. You can do this.
Mum, I wish I had the strength to do this. I feel like I am not doing it the right way. I should dump him and stick to it and stop giving him mixed signals. He can see me struggling and he is using it against me... not on purpose, but he knows I am weak and he is finding a way to get to me through that weakness... arrrrrgh!
d'smom said: first.. i dont think you do have to break up with him..... you can just kind of...... phase out..... just dont answer the phone so fast..... be busy when he calls more...... just dont be available. wean him off of you (and you off of him) he may resist this but, theres not much he can do if you just dont respond and slowly fade out of his life......... chances are 100% he will resist and it will be hard for you but, theres no law you have to be there every single time he wants you to be. right? doing the slow wean is totally acceptable way to 'break up'.
d'smom, this is exactly my plan. I realise it's not the real strong woman, brave heroine way to do it, but it's the only way I can avoid the pain that triggers me going back to him. i have to be just as strong and disciplined in doing it though, because as soon as I realise I am dumping him, I panic and run back to him, so I have to do it so slowly that even I don't notice. He really is a manifestation of me you know. He is that clingy, scared, panicky, helpless, dependant side of me, he represents my wounded child. So long as I keep him happy, I am keeping myself happy, because he is a part of me in a sense... oh God, I must sound so mental! -but I know what i am saying! :?
Does anyone understand this? It's the mirror aspect of a relationship. it just goes to show that you do not meet the healthy ones until you heal yourself... it's as simple as that.
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Hi Selkie, I absolutely understand. I was addicted to someone like that. I felt so sorry for him, had so much pity for him. I could read Janet Geringer Woititz's "Adult Children of Alcoholics" (which really should be titled "Adult Children of Any Kind of Dysfunction," lol) until my eyes burned and it didn't help. She states (I am paraphrasing) that Adult Children confuse pity with love and tend to love those that they can pity and rescue. Didn't make a dent. I was too enmeshed and addicted. I relapsed several times.
I finally understood, years after I bottomed out on the relationship and was able to end it, that by trying to nurture the man I was addicted to, I was trying to nurture myself. You said it perfectly. "He really is a manifestation of me you know. He is that clingy, scared, panicky, helpless, dependant side of me, he represents my wounded child. So long as I keep him happy, I am keeping myself happy, because he is a part of me in a sense... oh God, I must sound so mental! -but I know what i am sayin"
You sound perfectly sane and what's more, you are on to yourself about the dynamics of the addiction. I have heard similar stories from fellow AA members that relapsed and started drinking again. After they got sober again and came back to meetings, they said they drank but couldn't enjoy it or justify it because they "knew too much" after having been in recovery. I finally got on to myself about the addictive relationship I was in...and I was appalled that I had put all this work and effort into it when it would have been so much easier just to nurture myself rather than indulging in all the trouble and tsuris and angst the relationship brought me. I finally went easier on myself when I realized that I had needed a mirror to finally see and understand the part of me that needed nurturing.
I always sound a little goofy when I talk about enmeshment and mirroring. I hope my post is understandable.
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Amethyst,
You're post makes so much sense, thank you! I am so glad I found this board because it has lead me to people who understand me at a deep level... oh the relief!
Sometimes I wonder if I nurture him, am I indirectly nurturing myself? I guess it doesn't work like that, and I am forgetting that I am not nurturing myself by staying with him. In order to nurture myself, I need to let him go. He served his purpose, he held a mirror up to me. I learned so very much by being with him. Meeting him, brought my problem and the specifics of it out into the open. I knew I wasn't happy in relationships, but had no idea, wasn't sure if it was their fault or mine, it was all a tangled state of confusion... My happiest times in life have been when I'm single.
Amethyst said:I have heard similar stories from fellow AA members that relapsed and started drinking again. After they got sober again and came back to meetings, they said they drank but couldn't enjoy it or justify it because they "knew too much" after having been in recovery.
Amethyst, did you go to AA? Have you been to CoDA? Did you find it helpful? Can you explain exactly what goes on in those meetings and do you think I will find it benficial? There is a meeting I can go to tonight, I didn't go as planned yesterday. I bottled it.
x Selkie x
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Amethyst,
You're post makes so much sense, thank you! I am so glad I found this board because it has lead me to people who understand me at a deep level... oh the relief!
Sometimes I wonder if I nurture him, am I indirectly nurturing myself? I guess it doesn't work like that, and I am forgetting that I am not nurturing myself by staying with him. In order to nurture myself, I need to let him go. He served his purpose, he held a mirror up to me. I learned so very much by being with him. Meeting him, brought my problem and the specifics of it out into the open. I knew I wasn't happy in relationships, but had no idea, wasn't sure if it was their fault or mine, it was all a tangled state of confusion... My happiest times in life have been when I'm single.
Amethyst said:I have heard similar stories from fellow AA members that relapsed and started drinking again. After they got sober again and came back to meetings, they said they drank but couldn't enjoy it or justify it because they "knew too much" after having been in recovery.
Amethyst, did you go to AA? Have you been to CoDA? Did you find it helpful? Can you explain exactly what goes on in those meetings and do you think I will find it benficial? There is a meeting I can go to tonight, I didn't go as planned yesterday. I bottled it.
x Selkie x
Hi Selkie, Yes, I have been in AA and Alanon for 18 years. Also have been to CoDA and just responded to that in your other thread.
I am sure you will find the meetings beneficial. Everyone is in the same boat, there is no leader, nobody is better or "more recovered" than anyone else, and people don't give advice (or shouldn't), they just talk about their own issues in relation to a topic or two. After a couple meetings, I realized that we codependents are all the same in that we are all wounded and working to heal. One of the things they will probably tell you is to take what you like and leave the rest, just in case there is someone there that triggers you. (It happens rarely, but it can.) If a certain meeting doesn't resonate with you, you can just keep going back and trying others. I have found all meetings to be warm and welcoming.
The other thing I will say is that one never graduates from recovery. I have had people say,"Wow. Eighteen years and you still need meetings?" like I should have graduated or something. :P The way I see it, my recovery is only as good as how I am working my program, and I just do it a day at a time. I might not "need" the meetings quite the way I did in the beginning, but I want to go to them as much as ever because I always come out better than when I went in.
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Hello All...
Well I am back on the straight and narrow, the road to recovery... I went to my counsellor the other day (I told her last week I would dump my Ex before our next session) and I was a bit ashamed and embarrased that I didn't fulfil my promise to myself and I had to tell her that he was still in the picture. I proceeded to try to convince her (and myself) that I am in the process of weening myself off him and planning to slowly break up with him, meanwhile, back at the ranch I was clinging to him.
So I decided to bite the bullet and end it with my EX. He seems ok, we still talk on the phone and I am there for him if he needs to chat, but we don't see each other in person.
When I was back with him, I realised that I didn't love him. I didn't want to be in his company. I felt bad about my self for taking him back and was embarrassed in front of my friends and flatmates to be seen with him. I felt like I knew too much now and couldn't let myself relax and enjoy him, I saw the reality of the situation and it made me really ill to be with him. There was a constant dialogue in my head whilst he was around... I was down and depressed.
Ever since i left him, I have felt at peace. I haven't felt any doubt about my decision, and though I feel incredibly lonely, I know I don't crave him. I no longer associate him with love, comfort and peace. I am finally in one mind! I was exhausted with the to and fro-ing of deciding whether or not to go back... there is none of that now thank God!
I am still continuing to educate myself about abusive relationships and what causes them because it is the only thing that can keep me in the reality and keep me out of the "blindness" of my relationships.
I am reading "games people play" by Berne and it is incredibly eye opening...
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((((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))))))))
You said the other day that you were envious of me... Now I feel the same about you x
I am so glad that you feel more at peace and have let yourself make the right decision. I often think that if I were to see and speak to the ex that I crave so much I would probably feel the same. Once it is all out in the open that smokescreen must vanish. So your posting has been an inspiration to me this evening. it's so nice to hear you say that you are in 'one mind'.
i am also glad that you are reading games people play. It really makes you think about what you are getting into when you are locked into a 'game'.
I am so proud of you
Spyralle x
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Hello All...
Well I am back on the straight and narrow, the road to recovery... I went to my counsellor the other day (I told her last week I would dump my Ex before our next session) and I was a bit ashamed and embarrased that I didn't fulfil my promise to myself and I had to tell her that he was still in the picture. I proceeded to try to convince her (and myself) that I am in the process of weening myself off him and planning to slowly break up with him, meanwhile, back at the ranch I was clinging to him.
So I decided to bite the bullet and end it with my EX. He seems ok, we still talk on the phone and I am there for him if he needs to chat, but we don't see each other in person.
When I was back with him, I realised that I didn't love him. I didn't want to be in his company. I felt bad about my self for taking him back and was embarrassed in front of my friends and flatmates to be seen with him. I felt like I knew too much now and couldn't let myself relax and enjoy him, I saw the reality of the situation and it made me really ill to be with him. There was a constant dialogue in my head whilst he was around... I was down and depressed.
Ever since i left him, I have felt at peace. I haven't felt any doubt about my decision, and though I feel incredibly lonely, I know I don't crave him. I no longer associate him with love, comfort and peace. I am finally in one mind! I was exhausted with the to and fro-ing of deciding whether or not to go back... there is none of that now thank God!
I am still continuing to educate myself about abusive relationships and what causes them because it is the only thing that can keep me in the reality and keep me out of the "blindness" of my relationships.
I am reading "games people play" by Berne and it is incredibly eye opening...
((((Selkie)))) Way to go!! Yay!! Congratulations!!!!
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though I feel incredibly lonely, I know I don't crave him. I no longer associate him with love, comfort and peace.
just want to send you the best! im so happy. i know its one step forward two back always but i think this is a great big step. and you know you can care for him as a person without being with him.
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im sending a rose for your anniversary of loving yourself :> >>
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Great for you, Selkie! :D That's a real milestone of progress. Keep up the good work and be true to yourself.
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Longtire, Amethyst, Spyralle, D'smom,
Thank you so much for your support and good wishes.
I am dying as I type this, I feel so disgusted with myself. I feel like I have not only let myself down but I feel like I have been stringing you along in the belief that I would never get back with him. I really did feel like I wouldn't ever get back with him but I allowed him to come around yesterday. :(
When I do finally get rid of him, it'll be like the boy who cried wolf. I feel so disgusting that I want to get sick. Everytime I am in his presence I fall deeper and deeper into a pit of self hatred, confusion, and general "wierd stuff".
I am loosing my hold on my own life and I really think it is because I am tangled up with him. I feel like I am being punished by the Gods also. I am being spooked constantly...Let me explain...
I used to work with my EX, he was my manager. We had an argument at work one evening (which was honestly (!) entirely his fault) after which he told me to leave the establishment. I then went to the General manager above him, and told him what happened. I told him that it's best I left that job permenantly as I felt like I was making a spectacle of myself. Everyone was talking about us. My EX is very loud and was unable to hide the fact that we were having problems, he would shout and scream at me in front of my collegues. Hours later he would be all lovey dovey to me. I tried so hard to maintain a professional approach and always left my personal problems at the door. All the staff hated my EX with a passion and never talked to him, but they liked me. I always felt like I was caught in the middle. He would feel left out if I chatted to them for too long and I felt like they didn't approve of me talking to him. My relationship with my EX was secret to a certain degree. I used to tell everyone that we had broken up, but failed to tell people when we got back together. I just didn't want everyone involved in my relationship. The on again off again thing was just a fiasco, and I felt that I was making a fool out of myself. Anyway, I lost that job a month ago.
I have my own business and this is just part time work to support my income while my business is growing from a bud. I need this money badly and have had to juggle bank accounts to pay my rent. Anyway, I have been applying for a lot of work since and went for a trial shift the other night to a place. The manager of this place liked me and offered me the position at the end of the shift. He said he would call me the next day. He didn't call me. It's now three days later. I was talking to my EX on the phone just now and he said that "maybe it's because of my age" and "maybe you need to work on yourself" and "well you're not well and I believe people can sense that" I honestly believe that I didn't get the call because I am still with him. I feel like I don't deserve good things in life because I am not doing good things for myself. Is this possible? or am I being so unbelievably paranoid and catholic? I am a non practising catholic, but it is still engrained in me somehow... I kind of have that belief that Life will reward me if I get rid of him, if I keep him, everything will fall to pieces. I think this is why the employer didn't call me. Is this crazy?
I am fuming! i am fuming because I am so damn brainwashable. I believe he has been brainwashing me and keeping me down, keeping a lid on me, sapping my energy and depleting me of my power. I don't know how he is doing it... It seems like just being in his energy is doing it. I feel like I am becoming him and he is going to steal me, oh my God! what the hell am I doing????!!!!
Let me describe him: He plays the victim, he is always "depressed", he is a tortured kind of person. He is angry (ALL OF MY BOYFRIENDS HAVE BEEN VERY VERY ANGRY!) he treats people on the street like sh*t. He treats waiters/waitresses like sh*t. He has a very abrupt way of talking to people and never considers peoples feelings, he is extremely controlling and overbearing. He never respects peoples boundaries. He does what he wants regardless of people's protests. He is selfish.... oh I could go on but need I say more. The reason I am bringing this up is I feel like I am taking on some of his characteristics unknownst to myself and I am being brought down. I felt like it was ok to be with him these last few weeks as he has been wonderful and caring and none of the bad behaviour has surfaced. So why am I feeling like this when he has been well behaved?
Anyway, I told him this morning that I want to end it (again)
Don't congratulate me... I don't deserve it! I have to take it one hour at a time as we often break up a few times a day. I really wish he would protect himself and keep away, why do i have to do all the work for both of us? I know if someone broke it off with me I wouldn't constantly try to get them back. A guy dumped me a year ago and I erased his number and never contacted him ever again. Why doesn't he have a little respect for himself?
Sorry for the long post... I really needed to get it out of me... I am sick, much sicker than I think.
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I am fuming! i am fuming because I am so damn brainwashable. I believe he has been brainwashing me and keeping me down, keeping a lid on me, sapping my energy and depleting me of my power. I don't know how he is doing it... It seems like just being in his energy is doing it. I feel like I am becoming him and he is going to steal me, oh my God! what the hell am I doing????!!!!
I felt like it was ok to be with him these last few weeks as he has been wonderful and caring and none of the bad behaviour has surfaced. So why am I feeling like this when he has been well behaved?
Anyway, I told him this morning that I want to end it (again)
Don't congratulate me... I don't deserve it! I have to take it one hour at a time as we often break up a few times a day.
im not surprised selkie. this could take months. the reason your 'feeling like this' when hes 'well behaved' is becuase this behavior is kind of an act. you are starting to figure that out now that the jerky him is actualy the real him, or at least its enough of him that you dont want to deal with it. its disgusting that he wont respect your bouindaries but it -isnt- any surprise!!!!
i cut out these quotes for you: it might help you in a moment of insanity to do some reading on real actual brainwashing..... it has a lot of resemblance to what narcissists do. i think its a huge overlap. see if you recognise some of these techniques. just sift through the cult stuff and replace the word 'cult' with 'n'.
from <http://www.ex-cult.org/fwbo/terms.htm>
"For a while, an ex-member may exist in a sort of limbo between the cult world and the outside world, unsure which to believe in. To the extent that the cult belief system retains any degree of respect or credibility within an ex-member's mind, then to that extent leaving the group will seem like abandoning the ideals and aspirations of the group's belief system, and therefore like a failure.
On the other hand, to the extent that the cult belief system fails to retain credibility and is eschewed, to that extent an ex-member will tend to feel shame at their foolishness and gullibility in having once adopted beliefs and aspired to ideals which they now regard as unrealistic.
So either they are a failure, or a gullible fool. Either way their self-confidence takes a knock, and they may find it difficult to have any faith in their own judgement, or in their ability to make sensible decisions. For a while, they may not know what to believe, or who to trust...."
from <http://www.freeminds.org/psych/thought_reform.htm>
"......With drugs, physical pain, torture, or even a physically coercive threat, you can often temporarily make someone do something against their will. You can even make them do something they hate or they really did not like or want to do at the time. They do it, but their attitude is not changed.
This is much different and far less devastating than that which you are able to achieve with the improvements of coercive persuasion. With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do. The advances in the extreme anxiety and emotional stress production technologies found in coercive persuasion supersede old style coercion that focuses on pain, torture, drugs, or threat in that these older systems do not change attitude so that subjects follow orders "willingly." Coercive persuasion changes both attitude and behavior, not just behavior.
THE PURPOSES AND TACTICS OF COERCIVE PERSUASION
.....The essential strategy used by those operating such programs is to systematically select, sequence and coordinate numerous coercive persuasion tactics over continuous periods of time. There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.
TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction. [or promise of 'love']
TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)
TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.
TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.
TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.
TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.
TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.)......."......
i think these people definitely brainwash us with these techniques...... it has to do with our innermost beliefs. either we believed in something 'good' which means we shouldnt leave and were crazy to think something is wrong, or we believed in something 'bad' meaning we were foolish and taken in by lies. its hard to know which is which and you swing back and forth figuring it out.
either way go easy on yourself, this could take a very long time. just take little tiny baby steps, and keep at it.
d'smom
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Selkie, you are definitely in a cycle of abuse. I think I posted about it before, but it is worth looking up the concept on the net, maybe reading about it in some books. Your situation is classic.
When you write of him, he doesn't sound remotely appealing! But something must appeal to you in him. Maybe exploring what that is would be helpful, in your therapy, your codependency meetings, here, wherever. There is some reason you are involved with someone you find pretty fundamentally yucky, at least consciously. Do you like the idea of rescuing him? Is it fun to feel superior to him? Is there a high when he comes back after you break up? Is fighting secretly fun and sexy? Is fighting a way for you to yell at past people in your life-- is he a proxy for that? Is it easier to be with him and feel distant from him than to work on your own issues (i.e., does he keep you psychologically busy)? Is it easier to be with him than to try to find someone who you don't feel superior to who might genuinely develop intimacy with you?
Maybe just working through what you like about him will lead to some resolution. In the meanwhile, check out that cycle of abuse. It dovetails nicely with everything d's mom wrote, just with the added part of the roller-coaster of the breaking-up/making-up, which at some level you like because you keep doing it.
Oh, and I don't think berating yourself is going to do you any good! If anything it makes it all worse, more heady than it needs to be. Just for perspective-- you didn't marry him last night. You slept with him (I'm guessing). So what? Sometimes people like to sleep with other people. Give yourself a break. Making it a BIG DECISION undercuts all the work you have done and isn't true anyway-- you didn't abandon all of your previous thoughts/feelings. You just slept with him. That's all. In the morning you changed your mind. You aren't the first person to do that ! It's not a big thing. It does not condemn you to lose all future jobs and to become him. I promise.
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(((((((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))))))) This nut job is the sick one..... Not you sweetheart. You are caught up in this cycle sure, but please stop whipping yourself. You have said to me many times that you wish I could see what a s**tbag my ex is. Try and look objectively here at his horrible hysterical behaviour.... He is no where near worthy to be anywhere near you. BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU SICK........!!!!!!!
I know just what you mean about feeling as if you have taken on some of his characteristics. I feel the same I think I ended up more like my ex and him more like the way i was.... Yuck makes me want to shower in boiling water... I am a non practising Catholic too so I know where you are coming from with all that supersticious stuff. I was trying to explain that about my mum last night. It's trying to balance what you do with what will happen, but you know what lets do what we want and hang the consequences. i am beginning to believe that if we are true to ourselves, and learn to love and respect ourselves without deliberately harming others then surely that is enough.
And I will congratulate you because you are posting here and holding on in this battle... and you know what else...you are going to win to.... So There.... x
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxx
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I am dying as I type this, I feel so disgusted with myself. I feel like I have not only let myself down but I feel like I have been stringing you along in the belief that I would never get back with him. I really did feel like I wouldn't ever get back with him but I allowed him to come around yesterday. :(
Selkie, enjoy the good times when things are going well and you are making visible progress. Try not to beat yourself up when you are making a cycle and the progress is less visible. I think of it like going around the dark side of the moon to get the momentum you need to slingshot back to earth. It is lonely and dark "over there" but sometimes it is the only way to get up enough energy when you have been depleted for so long.
Reading vunil's post made me wonder whether you might be using him as an excuse to beat up on yourself? Were there other situations growing up where either your parentsor others picked on you and told you (no matter how non-verbally) that you didn't matter or were to blame for "things" that you had nothing to do with? Just a thought.
When I do finally get rid of him, it'll be like the boy who cried wolf. I feel so disgusting that I want to get sick. Everytime I am in his presence I fall deeper and deeper into a pit of self hatred, confusion, and general "wierd stuff".
If you only feel that way around him, then I think it is really his stuff he is projecting onto you. In other words, that is the way he always feels and so he tries to be around people who will shoulder that burden for him so he doesn't actually have to feel his own life. It sounds like you are not sure of your boundaries. Maybe you could start lists of things you do like and you don't like. Maybe you could start rating things for how much you like them: this mornings tube ride, the color of that woman's blouse, today's weather, etc. You don't ever have to justify your rating, you can just state it, even if it just to yourself.
I kind of have that belief that Life will reward me if I get rid of him, if I keep him, everything will fall to pieces. I think this is why the employer didn't call me. Is this crazy?
I think that is exactly the effect that these people have on others. It still seems like you are protecting him by making up curses and gods etc. when the simple explanation that this is what he does to people will suffice. I have done this one quite a bit myself, so it seems familiar. As to the manager not calling, I think you should call him back to find out what happened. He at least owes you an apology even if he doesn't hire you. Maybe, though, it doesn't have anything to do with you. Maybe he had emergencies and fell behind in getting back to you. I know this has happened to me on more than one occasion. On the other hand maybe he is afraid of confrontation and will just passive-aggressive his way out of problems. If that's the case you may be better off NOT working for him.
Let me describe him: He plays the victim, he is always "depressed", he is a tortured kind of person. He is angry (ALL OF MY BOYFRIENDS HAVE BEEN VERY VERY ANGRY!) he treats people on the street like sh*t. He treats waiters/waitresses like sh*t. He has a very abrupt way of talking to people and never considers peoples feelings, he is extremely controlling and overbearing. He never respects peoples boundaries. He does what he wants regardless of people's protests. He is selfish.... oh I could go on but need I say more. The reason I am bringing this up is I feel like I am taking on some of his characteristics unknownst to myself and I am being brought down. I felt like it was ok to be with him these last few weeks as he has been wonderful and caring and none of the bad behaviour has surfaced. So why am I feeling like this when he has been well behaved?
It's called a "hoover" like the vacuum cleaner brand. When they want to suck you back in again.
Anyway, I told him this morning that I want to end it (again)
Don't congratulate me... I don't deserve it! I have to take it one hour at a time as we often break up a few times a day. I really wish he would protect himself and keep away, why do i have to do all the work for both of us? I know if someone broke it off with me I wouldn't constantly try to get them back. A guy dumped me a year ago and I erased his number and never contacted him ever again. Why doesn't he have a little respect for himself?
People on the N side of the spectrum are not (consiously) burdened by conscience or shame over their actions. They live in a fantasy where they are better than everyone else, so they believe they don't need to take others into account. I'll bet each time you tell him it is over gets easier, doesn't it? It may just be too hard for you to do that all at once right now. Keep practicing and one day it'll stick. Probably without you even realizing it right away.
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Multiple choice test for Selkie:
1. My Ex is well behaved because he
a) Is nice to waiters and other strangers
b) Supports my self-image in my necessary quest to find a new job
c) Refrained from aggressive behavior when we worked together
d) None of the above.
2. I am a really bad person who does not deserve encouragement because I
a) Started a relationship with an N and he was a shit
b) Was horribly mistreated as a child
c) Allowed the N to sleaze his way back into my life after I clearly told him to get off
d) I just am. No reason.
3. I want to be around my XN because
a) Everytime I am in his presence I fall deeper and deeper into a pit of self hatred, confusion, and general "wierd stuff".
b) He plays the victim, he is always "depressed", he is a tortured kind of person.
c) He is angry...he treats people on the street like sh*t. He treats waiters/waitresses like sh*t. He has a very abrupt way of talking to people and never considers peoples feelings, he is extremely controlling and overbearing.
d) No reason at all.
4. The employer did not call me back because
a) He knows my secret thoughts and has decided that if I feel too weak about N, he will not hire me.
b) They decided to wait before making a decision about hiring.
c) He got too busy and will call back later with an aoplogy.
d) People don't always do what they say they will, when they say they will, for various reasons.
A possibly too playful
Plucky
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Multiple choice test for Selkie:
1. My Ex is well behaved because he
a) Is nice to waiters and other strangers
b) Supports my self-image in my necessary quest to find a new job
c) Refrained from aggressive behavior when we worked together
d) None of the above.
2. I am a really bad person who does not deserve encouragement because I
a) Started a relationship with an N and he was a shit
b) Was horribly mistreated as a child
c) Allowed the N to sleaze his way back into my life after I clearly told him to get off
d) I just am. No reason.
3. I want to be around my XN because
a) Everytime I am in his presence I fall deeper and deeper into a pit of self hatred, confusion, and general "wierd stuff".
b) He plays the victim, he is always "depressed", he is a tortured kind of person.
c) He is angry...he treats people on the street like sh*t. He treats waiters/waitresses like sh*t. He has a very abrupt way of talking to people and never considers peoples feelings, he is extremely controlling and overbearing.
d) No reason at all.
4. The employer did not call me back because
a) He knows my secret thoughts and has decided that if I feel too weak about N, he will not hire me.
b) They decided to wait before making a decision about hiring.
c) He got too busy and will call back later with an aoplogy.
d) People don't always do what they say they will, when they say they will, for various reasons.
A possibly too playful
Plucky
Not at all, Plucky. Nothing like a good reality check.
Selkie, we all have cycled many times..relationships with abusive people, addictions, self-defeating behaviors. Some things are just very hard to let go of. It's part of healing. It would be great if healing was a straight line from bottom to top, but it is not like that. I admire you for coming back to the board and writing about what is really going on. By being so honest and willing, you really have won most of the battle.
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D'smom, Vunil, Spyralle, Plucky, Longtire & Amethyst,
Thank you so much for your responses and for hanging around watching this carousel which must be getting incredibly boring by now... watching the same ol' same ol' going round and round... yawn!
I find it tedious and soul destroying, but as soon as I jump off, I jump back on again against my will. I need to get to the bottom of that moment when I jump off and what happens to make me jump on again. At the moment, it feels like a reflex action... Could someone kidnap me please?
I have tried so many times to respond to the posts yesterday, but as soon as I would type a few things, I would erase them and give up. I just watch what I type and criticise myself because I know better... who am I kidding?
Vunil said: "When you write of him, he doesn't sound remotely appealing! But something must appeal to you in him. Maybe exploring what that is would be helpful, in your therapy, your codependency meetings, here, wherever. There is some reason you are involved with someone you find pretty fundamentally yucky, at least consciously. Do you like the idea of rescuing him? Is it fun to feel superior to him? Is there a high when he comes back after you break up? Is fighting secretly fun and sexy? Is fighting a way for you to yell at past people in your life-- is he a proxy for that? Is it easier to be with him and feel distant from him than to work on your own issues (i.e., does he keep you psychologically busy)? Is it easier to be with him than to try to find someone who you don't feel superior to who might genuinely develop intimacy with you? "
I found this the hardest thing to respond to yesterday...
What appeals me to him is that he builds me up. He tells me I am wonderful, beautiful, talented. He absolutely adores me (fair enough, you'll probably tell me it's a tactic or a game of chase with him, and it could very well be) He constantly tells me he loves me. He admires me, puts me on a pedestal.
The previous relationship I was in, frustrated the living daylights out of me because to get any kind of attention was like getting blood from a turnip, he would give everyone else love except for me. He would flirt with other girls but never with me... so this is just a breath of fresh air now.
I know I have lost my love for my "boyfriend/ex boyfriend to be". What worries me is that he has kind of morphed into the man I wanted him to be at the start. I picked him up on everything I didn't like and over time, he apologised, explained why, and changed his behaviour. He is the complete opposite to what I thought he was from the start. But I no longer love him. I haven't had sex with him for a while as I can't bring myself to have sex with someone I don't love. I am worried in case I did get a perfect man, I think I would lose my love for him. I am terrified, but I think I may like the chase. I think I like unavailable men. I only like men who deny me love and who drive me crazy, this is why I keep getting these men. This is what attracts me! I think that I have lost my love for my boyfriend because he is giving me love and not making me run for it.
Ok, so I am clearly stuck back in my childhood. What do I do now? I seem to have resolved the situation in my present relationship. I turned him around! He is no longer abusive, he is loving, caring etc all the time. When he slips up, I freak out and he realises his ways and changes. Fair enough, if I stayed in the relationship, and I gave myself to him (which I would never ever do) , maybe he would f*ck me over further on down the road. But I think what's happening now in the dynamics of my relationship is telling me truck loads. I think I may have a fear of intimacy. By choosing these men, I keep intimacy at arms length. I'm not sure I could ever get past that. I feel sick to my stomach at the thought of a loving proper normal relationship that doesn't swing high and low.
Vunil, there are no more highs in the "making up", there used to be this feeling that we have taken a step closer to each other every time we made up and the love I felt was intense... but now I just feel disgusted with myself when I go back. Pluueeeeegh! I think it is easier to be with him rather than face my own issues like what you say, facing my own issues brings me to a depressed place, ie. my childhood... it was a very lonely, dark world... visiting that world is really horrible and i kind of feel very isolated and cut off from my life and friends when I visit it, I lose my spark... It makes me feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it.
Let me quote something from "games people play" (Berne) firstly a bit of background. A woman marries a man who is controlling and forbids her to go out dancing. They went to counselling and finally he loosened the reigns on her...so one night she goes out dancing and realises that she has a fear of the dancefloor... this is the quote;
"As it turned out, however, contrary to her complaints, her husband was performing a very real service for her by forbidding her to do something she was deeply afraid of, and by preventing her, in fact, from even becoming aware of her fears. This is one reason her CHILD (inner child) had shrewdly chosen such a husband" Page 46
This really struck a chord with me and made me think about why I am really choosing these men, what service are they providing for me?
They take my mind off me and my issues and my fear of intimacy I think... I must have a fear of intimacy! The bloody thought of it creates the same feeling as the thought of jumping out of an aeroplane
Also, I choose men with problems... Been out with a drug addict, lots of alcoholics, guy who suffered from anxiety attacks, a compulsive liar (while I was with him, I believed every single word) My current boyfriend is half mental...etc, maybe I chose people like this so I don't have to concentrate on my own issues?
Anyway, I wanted to respond to other people's posts also, as people gave me very interesting things to ponder on...but I feel like my head is going to burst, so I will leave it for another time.
Cheers
Thanks for listening,
x Selkie x
P.S I keep having recurring dreams of me being so angry at my mother! I am yelling and screaming at her, and cursing and trying so hard to find something to say that will hurt her so bad and really push her buttons but she just ignores me. I did this occasionally as a child when she hurt me, when I see those reality TV shows now about kids behaving badly, that was me!
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Hi Selkie,
facing my own issues brings me to a depressed place, ie. my childhood... it was a very lonely, dark world... visiting that world is really horrible and i kind of feel very isolated and cut off from my life and friends when I visit it, I lose my spark... It makes me feel sick to my stomach just thinking about it.
I can so identify with that Selkie..., but what I am learning in therapy is if I don't choose to look at it I will not make the links I need to make to be able to change things. If we don't know why we behave the way we do how can we ever stop. Believe me the answers are back there. I did training in psychodynamic therapy and then I thought.... No this isn't right. I had been to therapy myself and learned all the theory but I still wasn't changing... so I thought it was all rubbish and knocked it on the head. then, working in the addiction field I started to use a more cognitive approach. I found that to be quite effective for a while, but not always sustained. Now I believe that an approaches which embaces all the theories is better. Some cognitive, some person centred etc..... lets face it everyone is an individual so there can't be a one size fits all. Sorry if I'm rambling, what I am trying to say is it's ok to try and deal withit in the here and now but some of our behavious are unconscious and until we know where they come from and bring them into the conscious how can we ever change...
What appeals me to him is that he builds me up. He tells me I am wonderful, beautiful, talented. He absolutely adores me
Selkie. Examine ALL the evidence of this. Don't blind spot any of it. Don't just pick on the good stuff that you need. This man assaulted you remember. Remember how you felt then. I'm sorry to say it but it's only that this is what I do. I hang on to those special moments for dear life. people like us, we are so needy to hear that sort of stuff and people like him know exactly which buttons to press. They find out very early what floats our boat and then they know exactly what will bring us aroung.
When you say that you like unavailable men, do you mean emotionally unavailable. From my experience I like them unavailable too. My parents were unavailable you see, and if I remember rightly you had the same...N mum.... detached dad. I pick these men thinking (not consciously) that this time it will be different and I will be able to have what I craved as a child. It is a familiar place to me. i do my best to make them love me cos somewhere inside me I guess that if I can do it this time then I have finally got that love I always needed, but because we always pick the familiar, how can we ever get what we crave so much...
Me too I have always gone for the waifs and strays.... Never solvent. Never with their own house, underlying problems etc. Familiar to me.... Whatever would I say to an adult!!!!!
The thing I am beginning to realise is that I need to keep it all conscious.... keep reflecting. Yet how easy it is to fall back into the same old patterns. We accept them and make excuses for them because we are so used to giving in.... Go to therapy and use this board as much as you need to. we are not going to have a quick fix here, but we will be able to see the patterns of behaviour that we keep on falling into as we are gently guided by the caring people here.
This is a poem that I often give to my addicts...
I walk down the street
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I fall in
I am lost.....I am hopeless
It isn't my fault
It takes forever to find a way out
I walk down the same street
there is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I pretend I don't see it
I fall in again
I can't believe I'm in the same place
But it isn't my fault
It still takes a long time to get out
I walk down the same street
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I see it is there
I still fall in.....it's a habit
my eyes are open
I know where I am
It is my fault
I get out immediately
I walk down the same street
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I walk around it
I walk down another street............
Love Spyralle x
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Thank you for that poem Spyralle, I really like it, printed it out and it's now on my cork board in my room
xx
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hi all! Haven't been regulalry posting- started a great new job- and I really miss you guys and the support and learning. I liked the comments on pusuing unavailable men. Unavailable in every way- in fact, the more fucked up they are, the better I like it and feel comfortable. I have always been a great " fixer up-er". Intersting that in discussion recently with my shrink, we talked about this fixing up thing and chosing unavailable men. I now am starting to look at it- and not everyone will agree with me, in fact I may piss people off here...Oh well!!- as a form of control and manipulation on my part. What an intersting way to be superior to those guys. ' I have the answers...I have the skills etc" to fix you up. We as codependents are certainly not " all good, always the total victim( hate that word actually), and have no choice". For me there has always been a certain element of rightousness in my rescuing. For the longest time i could not and would not see this or accept it. I'm starting to wrap my head around it now and in alot of ways it makes sense to me. So f---kin difficult and painful to break these patterns- no matter how much therapy or intellectual awareness i have. Have been doing alot of family work and the roots of this shit as my Nmother died in Feb. and all these suppressed childhood memories are now rearing their ugly heads. Some good ones too which helps keep my perspective that she really wasn't an evil person- she was abused and damaged by her family. Ya do what ya know! I've finally completely stopped speaking to or even acknowledging my exN when we see each other- happens frequently- at NA meetings. realized even conversation beyond superficiality was another continuation of our sick and twisted dance. Hopefully i've- finally- nailed those worn out battle scarred dancing shoes to the proverbial outhouse wall where they belong! Hope all of you are well, coping, and getting through each day as it comes. Although I'm still defining, losing, then re-establishing my boundaries with the N., I am able to focus on the great supports I have, this forum and all you brave and good people, and new friends I'm making. Life is so full of stress and anxiety right now for me but I feel I can not only make it through this, but continue to enjoy- if not a whole day- many moments and parts of it. This helps keep me sane! Difficult to focus on the " moment" but it's really all we have. Hugs to all1 Moira