Author Topic: Mindfulness and codependence thread  (Read 136898 times)

lighter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8631
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #720 on: September 14, 2021, 04:38:24 PM »
I can't.... don't..... won't watch the news for more than a few seconds.... just to touch base with the COWs. They're holding pretty steady, as is the annoying way it's delivered.

The RoeVWade assault is.....predictable.  A literal blight on society.  So much history ignored.  So much suffering and Iv'e come to the conclusion men in power are so frightened of women and any power they hold....they'd go so far as to destroy our basic instincts to mother in order to FEEL in control. 

I noticed the more draconian States are the least likely to offer support and care for mothers who can't support or care for children if forced to have those children.  The anti family planning folks fail the children brought into the world.... so little compassion and care...... I'm always shocked by the willful stupidity it takes to ignore crime statistics in the US after Roe V Wade, falling by 45% to 50% since from the peak of crome in the 1990s.  It's like they went all stupid and flumoxed by the cioncidence and forgot they care about crime...... or they care less about crime?  Just baffles.

Now, I've only read a few headlines on my phone, so avoiding the news like the plague right now.  Will continue to do so.

I only spent 2 days watching Holocaust stories, which are always so similiar, yet every story deserves to be heard, IMO.  I wasn't taught anything about it in public school.  When visiting Dachau Concentration Camp in my early twenties,  I was mezmerized by the faces in the photos.  I could sit and look at one photo for an hour. One face. Those faces deserved to be seen and the horror deserves to be remembered and shared with each generation.  Do we know why humans can't learn from the past?  Has that been sorted out yet?  My default assumption used to be the small percentage of sociopaths, but that's just a piece of it, I know.  I always sense the bystanders,. the good men doing nothing are a more destructive force than the psychopaths who can't scale things up without the bootlickers and bystanders. 

What I noticed about my nervous system over the past week is.... .. I experience large and very small shocks all day long, even when there's nothing upsetting playing in the background or foreground of my life.  My own mind carries me there, all on it's own..... and I'm paying attention, for Pete's sake.  I can pull it back on track, but I'm pulling quite often and shocked at how many jolts of stress chemicals pass through my system.  I'm wondering if CBD cream will help any and I KNOW what I experience today is a drop in the bucket compared to two years ago, 3 years, etc.  I wish I had some idea what my default settings were prior to 2006 and 2000 so I could compare, but have no idea.  I think I was rather well insulated and contained, as a human being, therefore pretty steady. 

It's clear...... having control over our nervous systems is power.  I don't know if it's the same kind of power a top athlete accesses through well integrated brains.  Having the ability to control our biochemistry seems like it would be more powerful to me.  Just... everything. 

In the meantime, dd19 referred to the Milgram shock experiement as "bootlicker's syndrome.'  She feels some groups are more prone than others.  I wonder what part of the brain, along with conditioning, is involved.  Right brain? Left brain? Education levels.  Which section of the brain is most often involved when joining/boot licking/enabling/resisting/sacrificing everything....  Maybe there are studies on that.  I don't know.

I remember the Migram study getting a mention on the board by Ami.  I learned a lot through that conflict.  I wish I'd learned more.

Lighter








sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5441
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #721 on: September 16, 2021, 09:36:01 AM »
Thanks Lighter. It was Milgram, that I was searching for - to remember. I like the "bootlikkers syndrome" moniker, because - again - conformists (broad term; not universally applicable) want desperately to be accepted and liked as part of a group - and will attach themselves to "powerful" ideas or people - or just even some value that triggers something about themselves that needs validation. People-pleasers, in lazy intellectual shorthand. And no, not even that is universally apt.

Roe is a difficult topic for me. I painfully remember the women who were maimed, became infected, suffered - when an abortion was necessary in their lives, but not legal. Triggers old Twiggy stuff, but I can talk about it now. It's one of Hol's passionate causes. And it's very personal for her, too. Talking about it from opposite sides has helped both of us process the complex feelings.

I hold very old, probably conditioned; maybe not, pro-life feelings about that individual choice. But that's MY personal opinion, should I be faced with that situation again. I would never dare to try to push that onto someone else - because they are NOT ME. I never pushed it on Hol - much as she wanted me to tell her what to do, sometimes, I just couldn't. And then, with the miscarriages - well, there's a lot to process there for her. I listen and console, as best I can. Her path; her choice; her life.

What I think both of us agree passionately on, is that gov't has no business being involved in the issue AT ALL. Don't make it illegal; don't force people who don't want to cover it with insurance (for whatever reason) to do so. Don't make it so unaffordable that it's inaccessible. Set standards for safety - yes; but don't overburden with regulations until only the privileged can make that choice. Let that choice be FREE of all that crap - a woman has to live with herself, her choice, no matter what she chooses. And it's absolutely not the gov'ts job to stick it's nose in where it doesn't belong. Doctors & women themselves (and probably the male partner, needs to step up too & participate) are the only people who need to concern themselves with that kind of decision. It's way more than "healthcare" - and it's so intensely personal for so many reasons - that the one size fits all approach fails right out the door.

I used to think birth control would alleviate a lot of the conflict over this issue. But it's never been perfect; it's not 100% foolproof regardless of method. And so many women simply suffer too many side effects from the various things - it's not a good alternative way to address the situation.

Yes, there are more philosophical aspects to this - but usually, different aspects appeal to different people more than the others... and then, the "us & them" phenomenon shows up again. Should a child be brought into the world we currently inhabit? Is that fair? Can you nurture and protect and raise the child adequately? In a world with so much uncertainty floating free in so many areas that are essential for life?

I surely can't prescribe the answer to those questions for everyone. I don't think gov't can either. So, that leaves the weight of the decision where it's always been - and those people need the most support and freedom to choose according to their best abilities. Make abortion difficult or illegal - and women will die in backalleys again or take large doses of toxic drugs/herbs to abort. That's a guaranteed consequence of making it a crime.

Just my two cents. Being on both sides of the issue. Personally.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13616
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #722 on: September 16, 2021, 12:41:25 PM »
Preach. Thanks, Amber.

For me, those photos of groups of male legislators deciding what all women are allowed or not allowed to do with their own bodies...say it all.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8631
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #723 on: September 16, 2021, 04:03:22 PM »
I listened to public radio yesterday and oddly one program was about Pavlov and one was about the new abortion pills, were for treatment of other things, but had t he unfortunate side effects of causing miscarriages.  Someone thought that through, put them together and now they're available through websites who help women gain access secretly and safely when in Countries or STATES banning family planning.

I will say I, to my surprise, would not have terminated either of my pregnancies based on amnio results. I was shocked to discover that about myself,bc I'd never really thought about it... assumed I'd be more neutral, but I wasn't. 

What I am, is fixated on finding the root of the problem when women are pregnant with pregnancies they can't or don't carry full term.  Proactive is so much better, in every way, than reactive...... particularly where surgery is involved.   

I never understood women who use abortion as BC, bc I'm somewhat terrified of having any surgery...... particularly one where I'm dependent on someone to take me, gather me up and care for me aftrwards. I never had a colonoscopy,bc I just couldn't or wouldn't maybe get that part of the test together. I did the test you send in and take better care of myself emotionally and physically..... seems a much wiser approach to me. 

The same with not getting pregnant.... I went to the doc and asked for the morning after pill after unprotected sex with my dear sweet vasectomized B......I didn't care what the odds were.  It was my body, my choice and I'llbe as careful as I care to be,thank you very much.  Even taking those pills.....I cried and mourned a bit.  Not sure what that was about, but it informed my belief system around it.

As far as men having the audacity to wrench control of women's bodies from them......
their Pro-Life argument doesn't really hold water, does it?

I mean, if they really cared about every single life, they'd OK the involuntary harvesting of organs and bone marrow IF evrey single life held the value they claim they hold for unborn babies.  I can't imagine a man voting through legistlation taking away HIS right to choose whether or not he'll donate a kindey or lung in order to save a child's or adult's life.... all things being equal, right?
Men don't want to give up control of their bodies to keep a life in this world,but it's fine to remove a woman's right in order to save....

Inconceivable hypocrisy, IMO.  Men are fine with taking women's right to choose from them...... not all men, of course.  Just saying.


About Pavlov. His lab was almost washed away during a flood with the dogs cages floating and almost drowing them.  The lab assistant arrived just at the very last moment to save the dogs.  Pavlov noticed the dogs lost all the conditioning they'd learned AND were never the same as far as temperaments again.  The trauma changed their brains, which I knew.... everyone knows...I  assumed it was more about th brains ability to take on new information, though if I thought about it long enough I'd guess earlier conditioning and information would also change.

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5441
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #724 on: September 16, 2021, 08:16:54 PM »
There are beliefs about the sanctity of life that pre-date western civ's judeo-christian beliefs. It's been suggested that there are such things as generational, even DNA-group "memories" or beliefs that linger on through time. Whether that's true or not - isn't proven. Not sure I believe it, being skeptical about many things. Interesting to ponder though.

But yeah, those earlier - quote, more "primitive" cultures beliefs, end quote - are kinda engraved in me. I don't even immediately react to kill snakes... and I'm tolerating spiders better than I used to. Well, some spiders. And I'm still at war with stinkbugs (this is when they start to invade again... gggggrrrrrrr). The giant hornets are pretty smart. After a couple of years of me improving my swatter aim, all I have to do is pick up the swatter and they find their way off the porch in a hurry. With B being susceptible to shock from stings (and seafood), we take care to remove any nests we find around the house, too.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13616
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #725 on: September 16, 2021, 08:23:43 PM »
Lots of effective DIY stinkbug traps on the YouTube, fwiw....

I scoop them gently into my hand and put them outside.
Now and then does one take it personally and stink up my hand.
Washes off easily though.

However, I should stipulate that I am weird. I like eau de skunk.
It's a perfume ingredient, after all!

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5441
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #726 on: September 17, 2021, 11:49:41 AM »
I've made 3 of the 2-liter bottle & LED traps Hops. They work, but the "manager" is usually AWOL, completely checked out, when it gets dark enough to turn them on. Sounds like a job for a BOLD post it note on the fridge, on the door that has to be opened to fill the night-time water glass.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13616
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #727 on: September 17, 2021, 01:29:32 PM »
Is there a logical reason that Stinker has not been assigned to stink bug patrol?????

I think NOT.

LOL, hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5441
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #728 on: September 17, 2021, 06:16:50 PM »
He's weary of chasing 'em Hops.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13616
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #729 on: September 17, 2021, 07:13:49 PM »
Stinker chasing stinker bugs, poor thing.
(I was just laughing at the word connection).
Sounds Kafka-esque!

Hope you win the bug battle.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8631
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #730 on: September 17, 2021, 10:15:48 PM »
My friend's dh passed away this evening after spending 5 days on a respirator, bc his pnuemonia wasn't improving.  He'd been home over the weekend, but she couldn't keepp up with the oxygen machine which couldn't keep up with his needs.  So scary after 2 weeks in hospital.

By Wednesday we were shocked when the doc said to prepare for a harder conversation if things didn't improve. 

They didn't improve and whenever he gained some awareness he fought agressively to get out of the bed and hospital.  He didn't want to be there.  Would never have agreed to be on a respirator if he'd known he wasn't going to get better.

Seeing loved one suffer makes it easier to let them go.

Heading back to Atlanta tomorrow.

Lighter




sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5441
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #731 on: September 18, 2021, 08:07:58 AM »
Hugs Lighter. Go help your friend.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8631
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #732 on: September 18, 2021, 10:37:36 AM »
I ate myself into what should have been 3 stupors starting at 4pm yesterday....and I had to drive back to the lake.... over 2 hours, at 5pm in Atlanta traffic.  I kept wondering why I wasn't feeling worse, considering the amount of food I ate..... then noticed I'd made up my mind to never ever ever get stuck on Speghetti junction again, ever which made the drive home relaxed.

I avoided contancting my friend while IN Atlanta, bc I needed to get the girls back to the lake.... the Pug was waiting..... and then made the call only to find out the machine was being removed as I was driving.  I really thought that would happen today and I was wrong. Doesn't matter.  I couldn't have been there in any case.

The girls drove back last night and didn't let me know they were OK.  They raen't answering the phones or messages so I phoned the Cowgirl neighbor and she texted back, please message me. 

That was wierd,bc she's a super extroverted talker.....and she's never veered off a chat with me.  I had this terrible adrenaline dump.... what if the Yelly guy made up something to make her mad at me?  Just.... a really dreadful fear on top of a fear on top of a loss and heading into the sadness today....I had to know if the girls made it back.

I texted Cowgirl I needed to know if dd21's car was in the drive. it was.  I then breathed a bit, asked myself what I COULD DO before putting this completely down and asked Cowgirl if she was ok?  Were we OK?

She texted she'd had cataract surgery Thursday, company was visiting and she was sleeping in......I'd phoned at 9:3am..... it was such a relief to hear nothing really bad happened to her or her dh and nothing was wrong between us. 

So, I'm not immune to chemical dumps and catastrophizing is still something I DO or get to the edge of....no surprise there.  I did catch it early, think it through and do what I could to feel better in the moment/clarify the situation instead of ruminating or falling dow a rabbit hole.

I'm going to call that a win, resist texting the girls a "You little shites didn't check in last night" message and think clothes through for a memorial service, Korean BBQ and many many hours in jammies.  Living in jammies. 

I trust the girls.... believe they're good on their own,but dang.... just a text to say they made it would have been really appreciated right now. They know I'm not firing on cylinders right now.

It's really difficult to remember to breathe and go back home to myself when I'm IN the future or the past.....it's work.  Really hard work.

Lighter

 




Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13616
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #733 on: September 18, 2021, 12:43:05 PM »
Gosh, Lighter.
I'm very sorry about your friend's husband. May he RIP.

I understand chemical dumps and carb binges, truly do. It's a struggle sometimes.

WRT your girls not checking in...that rang so many gongs for me. My mother was anxious (I was the same, alas) and one of our biggest pushmepullyous as I got older was her insistence that I "check in" to "let her know I arrived safely" after I'd left their home. (Years later I did the same, constantly anxious about D's safety.)

I resisted and finally told my mother directly that statistically the chances are VERY small I'll be attacked or in an accident and I'd prefer to call you next time I WANT to call, not to keep up this ritual. I loved and adored the feeling of coming and going like a full adult without having to cope with feeling responsible for my mother's anxiety and her narrative about the terrors of the world. It upset me and I really really REALLY did not want to have to "check in" that way once I was of age.

It was a stupid power struggle but that's exactly what it was about...I was slowly claiming my adult power and this ritual that was about soothing her anxiety made me feel trapped.

Even though I also recognize it as a TOTALLY reasonable family behavior. And plenty of healthy families carry it out with no stress on their relationships at all. (Might've been easiser if we'd had texts back then...just hearing her voice in this ritual was teeth-gritting.) I see how checking in can be considerate of parent and responsible of child. There just came a point when it stood for everything controlling I wanted to escape. And for me being responsible when my mother couldn't soothe herself.

Dunno if that is at all helpful but I know this one so well. Nobody "won" exactly but I can relate to the feelings of both: anxious parent, independent child.

hugs
HOps
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8631
Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #734 on: September 18, 2021, 01:54:39 PM »
Oy, a carb dump is exactly what happened, Hops. I took the untouched rice home from the Chinese restaurant and have been making myself ill since I got home.  Just.... not feeling well at all.

Thanks for sharing your experience over having to check in with your mother.  I didn't think about it from that perspective.

My parents were proactive with reminders about driving into the sun if I left later, or reporting a storm was coming at such and such time, but they never needed to hear if I made it through a thunder storm, snow storm or hurricane. They did what they could, then released outcome, I guess. 

I remember thinking they should want to know if I made it.  I sometimes called to say I made it, but they seemed surprised.  They were focused on their own stuff.  I should be focused on mine too.

Anxiety, the fear of losing control, the feeling one can get and keep control by controlling others...... by controlling what one eats... lots  of reviewing coping strategies lately.

Lighter