Trusting one's judgment

[October]

Thanks to you both of the mp's for your support.  I'm feeling rather weepy right now as this is the time of night that BF and I usually talked. 

Well done, Gail, you have been more astute than many of us manage to be, and that is really commendable.  If you have doubts, then one way of seeing things as they are is to imagine your daughter (if you have one) dating a man like this, and how you would feel about him then.  That might help get a view on the level of abuse which has been going on.

Looking back at events in my life I accept readily that I was not worth more.  Change it notionally to my daughter, and I woudl tear the perp limb from limb.    

Good luck with your recovery from this relationship; now you can make a new 'wish list', with all the right things on it.

[Gail]

Thank you Brigid and Mum,

I didn't call, didn't e-mail.  I re-read his to me, though, and shed some tears.  It's hard to feel responsible for this pain.  I don't think he would have left me, but his behavior almost made it certain that I would leave him.  It's almost deja vu, because my ex-husband did the same thing.  Then, he could blame me for the divorce, especially to the children. 

It's kind of ironic.  I thought about ending this relationship earlier, but didn't want to cause BF any pain.  How stupid is that?  I doubt he's feeling much discomfort today.  He can tell everyone that I dumped him, that I did the normal woman thing and tried to control him, but he wouldn't go for it so I left him.

It's been a very rough three years.  I learned, like Brigid, that my x-husband was not the man I thought he was.  He was using porn, going to strip clubs, some infidelity, all the while acting like a sweet, gentle man.  His passive aggressiveness drove me nuts, though, and I started to suspect something was seriously wrong before it all hit the fan.  The divorce and aftermath was brutal, and of course, I will be dealing with him for many, many years since our youngest is 10.
 
I also learned I have thyroid disease, lost an unbelievable amount of money due to the divorce and my x's irresponsibility, and was in a car accident that left me with a neck injury.  I'm still dealing with the insurance company over that.   Plus, I have a 19 year old daughter who is mentally ill (she lives with my x), and I have the challenges of caring and supporting the 5 younger kids.  I do get some child support, but it doesn't cover even half our needs.  X is filing for bankruptcy and not paying his share of the kids medical bills.  I know he's in contempt, but at this point, it would cost more to go after him than what I would probably recover and the kids would really have a hard time dealing with the conflict.  I've also had to make some car payments to save my credit as the bank refuses to take me off the loan for a car he owns.

Sometimes it just seems like too much.  I'm exhausted.

I know, though, that I have a lot to be thankful for.  I'm not going bankrupt.  I got out of the marriage as quickly as I could when I realized xh was going nuts financially and emotionally tied to another woman, and am OK that way as a result.  While I don't have a well developed career, I do have a good education so have options.  For now, I can work at home and can almost meet our financial needs.  My health is not great due to the thyroid disease, but I eat well and exercise, so am in decent shape.  Hopefully, this neck injury will eventually have less impact on me. 

I've got to stay positive, but I also think I need some time to collapse.  I met BF when I was still reeling from the divorce, so I've never had time to just take stock and rest as much as possible.  So much of my energy went to that relationship.

It's hard not to ask myself, "How could I be so stupid?"  "Why didn't I pay attention to all the red flags?"

I realize that, at the core of all of this, is a very low self-esteem.  It's kind of silly, really, because I know I have a lot of good skills and have some accomplishments I can be proud of.  But, this is deeper.  It's how I feel about myself at the core of my being.  It's a willingness to be mistreated.

I'm going to start to filter everything through a question one of you asked, "What if this was your daughter?"  I need to care for myself as much as I care for my children. 

BF never wanted to have anything to do with my children.  Because we lived so far away from each other, it was easy to accomodate that.  We always spent time together when the children were with my x.    He didn't even meet most of them until a few months ago.  But, I didn't really want the kids to be around him that much anyway.  I thought they would see that he was not someone that I should be involved with.

Right now I'm experiencing waves of grief.  It's not just the stiuation with BF, it's what has happened to my family, and all that faces me in the future.

Gail

[Gail]

October,

I neglected to thank you for your post, too.  It was you that said I should think about what if this was my daughter.  That really helped and is going to make a big difference to me as I work through this.

Gail

[mudpuppy]

Hi Gail,

Sorry you're grieving so much. I hope you won't go near a man, no matter how sweet he acts, til you're stable and not so vulnerable.

BF never wanted to have anything to do with my children.

You hadn't yet mentioned that your xbf wasn't interested in your kids when I said yesterday that the next time you meet somebody make sure he likes your kids even if he's a dope. Not that I'm clairvoyant, its just pretty typical of Ns, so I took a guess.

 
So, speaking as a man, let me tell any women out there listening that if you have kids and a guy you meet doesn't like them or avoids them, you can be pretty sure that guy should not be touched with a barge pole, no matter how much syrupy plagarized poetry he writes you or how dreamy his smoke grey eyes are. 
There may be a few men who don't like kids and aren't selfish but I'm not sure I've ever met one.
Has anybody here met a man who didn't like kids and wasn't a complete and profound jackass?

mud

[Gail]

Thanks, mud puppy.  He is so child adverse that if we were in a restaurant, and some children were nearby and making noise, we would have to move.  There's got to be a story there somewhere.  He says his mother mistreated him horribly.  He grew up determined that no one, ever again, would ever tell him what to do or put any restrictions on him.

I know I shouldn't get near a man for a long time.  I really goofed on this one, but I'm grateful for what I learned from it.  At least I didn't marry the guy!  Then, I would have been in a real mess again.  Of course, he told me upfront that he would never marry and he's in his 50's and never has.  We really were an odd pair.  Mother of many and confirmed bachelor who doesn't like kids.

This afternoon I was thinking about dealing with this grief and I was reminded of how I felt after my marriage ended.  I was so devastated, but I realized that staying in the marriage was also devastating and at least these terrible feelings would eventually end.  Staying in the marriage would just bring unending grief. 

This is kind of like that.  Yes, it's very hard and I miss him terribly.  But, staying in the relationship was certainly not pain free. 

This I'll get over.

Gail

[mum]

Mud pup: you are one wise guy! and I mean that seriously!!!  My second husband was the same type....works with children, but if I had looked carefully, and followed my gut, he basically hates them...and women....and himself.  Oy!

Gail, let go of trying to figure it all out. It hurts. The first part of healing is feeling, so go ahead and say it. This sucks.  Have a good cry (many) and only then will you be able to move on and be positive. No amount of stuffing it will work, and you know now that includes getting involved with someone who likes the way you look (on HIS arm, am I right? ).
You'll be ok. Keep on with gratitude for what is right.  Things will come around.

[October]

I'm going to start to filter everything through a question one of you asked, "What if this was your daughter?"  I need to care for myself as much as I care for my children. 

Right now I'm experiencing waves of grief.  It's not just the stiuation with BF, it's what has happened to my family, and all that faces me in the future.

Gail

You are not on your own, Gail.  (((((hugs)))))

I was on a plane recently with my d, and she was a bit miffed when the safety announcement said that in an emergency parents have to put the oxygen mask over their own faces first, and then look after their children.  that is exactly the same situation as you are facing now.  You have to take care of yourself first, so that you have the emotional energy and the health to look after your children, and five is a lot to care for.

So, bubble baths and candles.  Cups of tea.  Walks in the park.  Whatever it takes, even if only for a few minutes every day.  You need to be nice to yourself, and give yourself time to grieve not only for what you have actually lost, but also for the dream of what you thought you had.

[miss piggy]

Hi Gail,

Hey, make friends with your pain.  It's trying to tell you something.  I'm glad to hear you use the word "learn" because you're paying attention and taking notes.  That's good.  Look at this experience like childbirth.  Some new and great Gail is going to come along after the pain.  She will change your life and you're going to have to take care of the New Gail.  And you're going to love it.

It's OK to stay positive if that means you are looking ahead.  But don't shove your pain away too quickly or deny your feelings.  It's a huge opportunity to learn how to stand up for yourself and what you want.

Just another note: don't take what BF says literally or too much to heart.  It's all defensive BS.  Esp. when he says the word "critical".  He's been hearing people tell him that for a very long time, so he's trying to pass the baton on to you and who knows who else.  I thought of an old Dave Mason song this morning,in your honor.  (Remember him?  Anyone?  Anyone? )  "There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy.  There's only you and me and we just disagree."  So you can put that bad guy stuff down and forget about it.

I'm impressed that you are aware of why you are feeling so pain at particular points during the day or night.  It's like trying to stop smoking or another bad habit.  Substitute something during those times that's healthier and even better for you, like a walk (if practical) or reconnecting with a friend, making some art or whatever you want.  Take control.

You go, girl.  You can do it.     MP

[Gail]

I'm starting to feel really low.  One of the things we liked to do was talk on the phone at night because of the distance.  We both had very similar interests in science, history, politics, etc. so could talk for hours.  I really miss that.  I find myself thinking, "What have I done by ending this?"  Overwhelmed with self doubt. 

But, the reality is he only called me two times in the last month even though he knows how much that bothers me.  The reason--I told him again how much it hurt me to have him advertise on personal sites.   When I asked him about why he didn't call, he said he thought he should just sit back and see what happened.  He called it going passive and avoiding causing suffering.  To me it felt like he was showing me that I really couldn't expect him to take my feelings into account. 

Sheez!  Did you all go through this?  Trying to think through everything and make some sense of it? 

In his last e-mail, he said things between us were fabulous.  But, it didn't feel fabulous to me.

[mudpuppy]

Hi again Gail,

He called it going passive and avoiding causing suffering.

This is one of the things that really burns me up about Ns.
They smugly tell us black is white to justify their repulsive behavior.

He went aggressive by going passive and he was intentionally causing you suffering not avoiding it. To top it off he tries to sound all grown up about it, to make you feel guilty.

This guy is just a three toed sloth who has come down out of the trees to make you miserable.
Whenever you miss him just think about those personel ads. And if that's not enough, maybe refresh yourself on NPD characteristics, cause this guy is sprouting them like a month old potato.

mudpup

[Gail]

Thanks, Mudpup, I needed that!

I so appreciate this forum.  It has really helped to put things in writing and to get someone else's perspective.  I can re-read what I've and others have written and get a better handle on what has happened.  One thing I have realized is that I have had so much pain in my life, both physical and mental, that it doesn't feel that unusual when I'm mistreated.  It's what is "normal" for me.  Well, after almost 50 years of it, I'm ready for some relief!

I had a really nice thing happen to me tonight.  I was feeling lower than low when a good friend, who used to be my next door neighbor called.  I hadn't seen him in quite awhile, but he called at just the right time.  We went out for coffee and had a good long talk.  Just a nice pleasant evening with someone who is genuinely a good person, definitely not an N.  Since my kids are with my ex this weekend, I would have just been home alone wallowing if he hadn't called so it was something to be thankful for.  It reinforced my resolve to re-connect with friends I've neglected these last few years. 

Gail

[miss piggy]

Hi Gail,

That's so great!  I think it's a nice sign of encouragement from the universe that you are doing the right thing.  Ugh, that lack of email thing.  Stop being your XBF's fly under the glass.  He sounds creepy to me. 

Warning: don't date until you know what you are bringing into the relationship.  You are very vulnerable and need to just plain take care of yourself.  This is a matter of being fair to the other person as well.  We can't expect the other person to shore up all our needs. Sorry, again I think it's great some friendship and support arrived just when you needed it!!!  Just be careful, OK?

As for the intellectual pursuits, the Internet is a wonderful thing.  There have to be chatboards for the topics you like that you might enjoy.  Shop around.  And you may find ways to pursue your interests locally as well. 

I have a similar problem in choosing friends that are very smart, great conversationalists, are initially very friendly and social.  But emotionally they are very immature or uncomfortable when I express my feelings or what have you.  I end up feeling like I'm a weirdo or I've pushed them away or something.  However, I am now figuring out that 1. I choose people who are a lot like my father, 2. many people may have attributes I'm attracted to but that doesn't mean they have the whole package (emotional IQ), 3. I am (may I say) more emotionally astute than these folks, 4. I tend to expect too much emotional intelligence from people I like for different reasons.  In other words, intelligent fun people aren't necessarily trustworthy or loving or deserving of my friendship.  I am just now learning how to figure out how to accept this and navigate the world accordingly.  So I understand your confusion.  I really urge you to sort these things out a bit more before jumping into another relationship.  You don't have to be lonely when you are alone.

Take care, you're doing great.  Hugs, MP

Oh, PS: some of my litmus tests for Nness are: like kids?  like dogs?  kind to the waiter/waitress?  I've told my Ds to watch how the guys treat their mother and the servers, because that's how they'll be treating you eventually!  ciao.

[Gail]

Well, XBF is pathologically adverse to kids, likes dogs a whole lot more than people, and can treat waiters, checkers, service people pretty rudely.  He can be extremely charming, too, though, and I've seen him draw people into conversations who normally are very quiet and reserved.  That is something I've always admired in him.  He can show a great interest in people and often is very genuinely interested in what they have to say.

One reason my relationship with him has meant so much to me is my xh hardly ever talked to me.  I lived for 24 years with a man that I can't ever remember having a really meaningful conversation with.  So, my relationship with bf was like water on a parched soil.  When I think about losing that, I get the waves of grief I'm dealing with. 

He holds a big grudge against his mother because of the way she treated him as a child, although he does make the effort to visit his parents twice a year which requires a very long drive.   I've never heard him say a kind word about her.  She may have been as terrible as he says, and probably was a narcissist, so he built some defenses to get through it.   He has a very low opinion of women.  Says he made the decision to never be "controlled" by one because of his childhood.  Unfortunately, that means any compromise is seen as concession or a "Yes, dear" situation. 

I used to wonder why a woman left him that he lived with for 4 years about a decade ago.   They stayed friends, and when I met her, she obviously still had a great deal of affection for him.  She's too ill to communicate now, but I could tell in her eyes how much she felt for him and she put her hands over her heart to show that.  That was early in our relationship, and I was so impressed with that and really puzzled as to why she ended the romantic part of their relationship.  Now, I know, though.  She just couldn't live, after awhile, with the same type of behavior that I couldn't either.  It's too demoralizing.  You think it will eventually get better, but then it doesn't.

It's so sad and seems like such a waste.  I still have that hope.... You know, that fantasy, that something will trigger some profound insirght for him and I'll get that phone call saying he "gets it".  I do know, though, it's only a fantasy.   I can't build my life anymore on "What might be if only....   

What's ironic if that he has this image of himself as being a very "enlightened" being and someone who can help others see things the right way.  Also, one of his goals is to be "unattached" to any outcome.  Maybe that's why he could speak so casually about "moving on to whatever something was next" when I told him I had to resign as his girlfriend if he wouldn't leave the personal sites.  (His language.  He told me that I could resign from that position at any time--also told me I was a "slot filler", that I came along at a time in his life when he needed someone to fill that girlfriend slot.)   If his stated goal is to stay "unattached", that surely says a lot about an inability to form attachments!

Gail

[mum]

Gail, I relate very much to the BF appearing to have some admirable traits that the nasty ex husband did not. It's like we are looking for someone to fill in a street full of humongous potholes in our relationship history and when they fill in one or two, we are thrilled and assume there will be more to come....
and we know the rest...

My second husband was handsome and charming and well known, some things my ex was not....AND he told me on a regular basis how beautiful I was.  He really made a point of this. (oh, yeah and how beautiful other women were, too).
After years of never being complimented by my husband, it was awesome for me!  But I was a walking wound, and those things were balm to my damage.  Unfortunately, they were just about appearances. My second husband was charming because it was an act, and well known FOR his "act". And he liked my looks because of how being with me made HIM look.   And that's the depth of it.

I think you are doing well, really well, to talk this out, and realize you need something different for your life. At first I felt dumb that my kids would have a twice divorced mom, but I know it's much better for them to be with a mom who respected herself and them enough to get out of a damaging situation.

[Gail]

Thanks, Mum.  This really made sense to me.  Just because BF filled the "needing conversation" pothole and provided much adventure doesn't negate the negatives.

It's been just 3 days since I sent the "Dear John" e-mail, and I'm exhausted.  And all I've really done is hole up in my house except when I went to coffee with my friend.  (Thankfully, the kids are gone this weekend.)   I can't seem to focus on anything except to watch some TV and read posts on the site.  Is this a normal reaction?

I'll be "fine" for awhile--really thinking about it rationally and glad to be in the position to move forward, then a wave of grief will hit me.  I'll think about something I want to share with BF and then I realize I'm not going to.  And the phone is right there.  And I want to talk to him.  I want to try one more time to get him to "see" what we could have together.

But then I feel like a "piece of trash" that he threw away.  It's so nuts!  How could a man who says he's perfectly happy with a woman and will never leave her, and who genuinely enjoys her company, give her up for "cyber flirting?"  Is it a control thing?  That he really won't do anything just because someone wants him to?  Or is it that hearing from women, who find his profile attractive, feeds narcisisstic needs?  At one point, until I really protested, he was posting pictures that I took during our times together.   Even why that was hurtful was hard for him to understand.

Maybe he really does understand, but it's just some kind of cruelty at work here?

Since I can see this very clearly with my head, why won't my heart accept it, too?  I keep having flashbacks to the good times, to the times I felt that we really had something special.

This stinks!

Gail