My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[Anonymous]

Hi Longtire:

I want to say congratulations on making this decision but that just doesn't sound right.    

I'm glad you are feeling strong and able to make a decision!   That's really the good news, isn't it?

Do you feel a bit of weight off of your shoulders now?

I hope with all of my heart that you will be and that life will be good for you from now on!

Way ta go Longtire!!

GFN

[Anonymous]

I really should stop typing with my toes!  

I hope with all of my heart that you will be

should be:

I hope with all of my heart that you will be happy.....

GFN

[Stormchild Guesting]

Well done Longtire.

Hold on to your daughter with one hand, your cat with the other, and make sure you keep those two new itchy bumps on your shoulderblades well oiled and massaged.

Your wings are growing.

"I used to think that I could not go on
 And life was nothing but an awful song
 But now I know the meaning of true love
 I'm leaning on the everlasting arms
 If I can see it, then I can do it
 If I just believe it, there's nothing to it...

 I believe I can fly
 I believe I can touch the sky
 I think about it every night and day
 Spread my wings and fly away
 I believe I can soar
 I see me running through that open door
 I believe I can fly
 I believe I can fly
 I believe I can fly!

 See I was on the verge of breaking down
 Sometimes silence can seem so loud
 There are miracles in life I must achieve
 But first I know it starts inside of me, oh
 If I can see it, then I can do it
 If I just believe it, there's nothing to it

 I believe I can fly
 I believe I can touch the sky
 I think about it every night and day
 Spread my wings and fly away
 I believe I can soar
 I see me running through that open door
 I believe I can fly
 I believe I can fly
 I believe I can fly!"

[I Believe I Can Fly -- R. Kelly]

[Chutzbagirl - reply]

Hi Longtire,

My heart goes out to you.  I am always reluctant to give advice about divorce.  I am grateful that my husband and I hung in there when we were going through some tough times - we've been married 16 years.  

During out toughest year I talked with my Pastor quite a bit.  My Pastor is a wonderful man, leader and fellow recovery member.  I felt assured that if and when it was time for me to leave I would know and my Pastor & counselor would be in agreement with me.

Fortunately, I learned how to detatch and my husband hit his emotional bottom and reached out for help.  (Dealing with the pain of abandonement during those years felt like my heart was being scalded in hot oil.)  I was so afraid that my husband was going to turn out like my Mom - an N with no hope.  However, his behavior during those years is what broke through my denial and forced me to start seeking healing from my childhood.  Because of my background his behavior caused a 10 on my pain richter scale.  I had to come to terms with the reality that I was blaming him for the pain my N Mother caused decades ago.  

So, I'll pray for you and trust that God is taking good care of you.  You are a very warm man.  (Remember, I thought you were a woman.   )


Chutzbagirl

[Lovelylilac]

Hi Longtire,

I'm kinda playing catch up with reading your thread, so I'm a little behind with my interjections   After reading your thread, I was moved on your enduring love for your wife during all those years of heartaches and disappointments from her.  Loving someone under those circumstances, I believe takes character, integrity, strength and resilience.  And it sounds to me like you have all those qualities and then some  

I'm sure it's a very tough and monumental decision for you in choosing a divorce.  I have never haven been married before, so I can't really say what I would do if I was in your situation.  But, I think I would make the same decision as you.  It seems like your wife will never change until she sees that she is doing something wrong and see a need to change, starting with herself.  Doesn't sound like she sees that or wants that.   It's true that noone can change anyone else but themselves.

[longtire]

Thank you all for the support.  You know, I don't get tired of saying that.

I hope with all of my heart that you will be happy and that life will be good for you from now on!

Life is good, even when I'm not happy!  That is one of the ways I can see that I've grown through all this.

Well done Longtire.

Hold on to your daughter with one hand, your cat with the other, and make sure you keep those two new itchy bumps on your shoulderblades well oiled and massaged.

Your wings are growing.

Thanks, though it feels more like flopping around on the ground than flying to me right now.

My heart goes out to you. I am always reluctant to give advice about divorce. I am grateful that my husband and I hung in there when we were going through some tough times - we've been married 16 years.

During out toughest year I talked with my Pastor quite a bit. My Pastor is a wonderful man, leader and fellow recovery member. I felt assured that if and when it was time for me to leave I would know and my Pastor & counselor would be in agreement with me.

I've hung in there a long time with unrealistic expectations.  Several things came together recently that let me know it is time.  I don't feel any love for her and don't want to keep "trying" at something that has never worked.  I don't get my wants or needs met here, stability and avoiding adandonment are not enough.  She does get some needs met financially and stability-wise, so I don't see her being very motivated.  Our relationship is stuck exactly where it was 10 years ago.  I believe in miracles, but I'm not planning my life around them anymore.

Fortunately, I learned how to detatch and my husband hit his emotional bottom and reached out for help. (Dealing with the pain of abandonement during those years felt like my heart was being scalded in hot oil.) I was so afraid that my husband was going to turn out like my Mom - an N with no hope. However, his behavior during those years is what broke through my denial and forced me to start seeking healing from my childhood. Because of my background his behavior caused a 10 on my pain richter scale. I had to come to terms with the reality that I was blaming him for the pain my N Mother caused decades ago.

I know that I'm not done with my childhood issues, but I've made a lot of progress because of this relationship.  It took me a while to grow to the point where I can choose what is best course for me and not give in to fear.  Still working on this one.

So, I'll pray for you and trust that God is taking good care of you. You are a very warm man. (Remember, I thought you were a woman. )

Thanks.... I think.  


I've been feeling fear off and on since I chose.  I'm just riding the waves, noticing it when it comes up high, acknowledging it, and reminding myself why I made the choice I did.  As yucky as it feels at times, I would never  trade having my feelings just so... present to go back to being numb ever again.  I don't think I'm having a pity party, but I feel afraid that I am.  I look forward to the day when my feelings can come up like this and I don't feel like it is a struggle just to hold on.

My therapist told me today that the reason he has not been supporting the things I've been saying is that he does not believe what my wife does qualifies as verbal abuse, emotional abuse or psychological abuse.  According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling.  He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse.  I don't get this.  What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?

He asked if I needed him to agree with me that it was abuse and I said no (because her bahavior qualifies as unhelpful, and unnecessary in my book).  I did ask if he thought he could still help me figure out how to face the rest of my childhood issues so I don't choose this kind of relationship again.  He responded by asking me if I thought I needed to find another therapist who would agree with me.  I said no, but now I'm wondering.  It would be nice to stop arguing over whether this behavior is abuse or not, or normal or not and just work on my remaining childhood issues!

[Anonymous]

longtire,

According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling. He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse. I don't get this. What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?

What kind of a chunkhead is this guy? Has he ever heard of subtlety or cleverness or shrewdness. Some of the worst abusers in my experience are the subtlest. You can't even fight back because you're not even certain it is abuse half the time, until you look back on it.
Sheesh, tell him to go put in 15 or 20 years with her then come back and tell you whether he was just 'annoyed'.
   

mud

[longtire]

What kind of a chunkhead is this guy? Has he ever heard of subtlety or cleverness or shrewdness. Some of the worst abusers in my experience are the subtlest. You can't even fight back because you're not even certain it is abuse half the time, until you look back on it.
Sheesh, tell him to go put in 15 or 20 years with her then come back and tell you whether he was just 'annoyed'.
   
mud

Yes, I'm seriously thinking about finding someone else.  I would like to find a therapist who can give me some empathy and validation WHILE helping guide and nudge me forward.  Sheesh, its not like I lack motivation or some awareness in this area.  I don't care if her behavior qualifies as abuse, controlling behavior, or any other term.  I want help in figuring out why I chose it, why I kept putting up with it for so long, and why I'm NOT going to do that in the future.

As for my feelings, I talked with my daughter for a while, we petted the cat , we laughed, we hugged. Even though I know my choice will effect her, I know that things will work out alright.  Every time I start feeling low like in the last post, I feel better soon afterwards.  I wonder how many times I will need to experience that before I remember WHILE I feel low that the good things are so close?

[Stormchild Guesting]

My 2 cents longtire...

Wow, your therapist is terribly invalidating.

So's your old lady.

However, separating from your wife and changing your therapist at the same time could be totally overwhelming.

On the other hand (jeez, I sound like longtire now!   ) if he doesn't see your wife's behavior as abusive, is he going to be able to recognize abuse in your parents' behavior either?

You know where your t is coming from now. You're in a position to practice trying to get through to him from a position of strength (because you've got us in your pocket! yea team!).

And you're in a position to be able to look, if it seems sensible, for a therapist who specializes in abuse issues, and maybe see both therapists for a while, then pick the one who hears you and does you the most good.

It's late and I'm tired, so I hope this makes sense. God bless you, longtire. I believe you can fly!

Storm

[Anonymous]

My therapist told me today that the reason he has not been supporting the things I've been saying is that he does not believe what my wife does qualifies as verbal abuse, emotional abuse or psychological abuse.  According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling.  He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse.  I don't get this.  What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?

*mind boggling*

If my therapist said any of this to me, it would be our last session. I need a therapist who validates my experience, not one who invalidates it. This guy has no idea what he's doing.


bunny

[Anonymous]

It's like he's set himself up as the opposing counsel in the divorce court and is cross examining you. Maybe he wishes he were a divorce lawyer..


bunny

[Chutzbagirl-Reply]

Hi Longtire,

I'm reading the "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller.  (Very technical book.)  The author claims that unless a therapist has mourned the loss of him/herself the therapist is unable to help clients recover and will unconsciously manipulate.  A guess in the dark - perhaps your therapist is unable to look at his own unacceptable behavior?  In my humble opinion, he's got some of his own issues clouding his perspective.

Hang in there.  I pray you continue to receive wisdom, strength and grace.  

Chutzbagirl  (Yes, the whole gender mix up was a compliment. )

[P as guest]

Longtire, maybe he's very clever and he's wondering if you can 'divorce' him right now. I wonder if his comment about another therapist was designed to get you to act immediately and say 'yes, I'm off, I won't be back!'

About using the word 'abuse'. Maybe he wants you to disagree strongly with him.

I would if I said that kind of nonsense. I'd be 'baiting' you on purpose.

Say what you think longtire. Maybe he wants you to do that. No more going away and mulling over someone else's words - just state your opinion and see what happens.

Maybe he's behaving a little like your wife on purpose? You could ask him about this possibility. Yes! You could.

On the other hand, he could be a complete idiot as indicated by everyone above (and I'm tempted to agree with everyone). I don't know. Only you can decide.

What will you do Longtire? Will you talk this through with him?

best, Portia

[P as guest]

My therapist told me today that the reason he has not been supporting the things I've been saying is that he does not believe what my wife does qualifies as verbal abuse, emotional abuse or psychological abuse. According to him, the person doing the abuse must be doing it intentionally and must be trying to cause the feelings or doubts by swearing or name-calling. He says that the things she does are just annoying and disappointing, but not abuse. I don't get this. What abusive person would ever admit that they were doing it intentionally?

What did you say to him? Did you tell him you didn’t understand? It’s okay to get responses from us here to his words, but we don’t know what your reaction was. And this is therapy, so it’s not exactly like a normal interaction. Why is he saying these things to you? (That’s a question for you and him, I don’t want the answer.)

He asked if I needed him to agree with me that it was abuse and I said no (because her bahavior qualifies as unhelpful, and unnecessary in my book).

Do you think it is abuse? The important thing is not what the correct definition is, but what you think, what’s your opinion Longtire? Because after all, you are there with her, nobody else is. Only your opinion matters on this. Are you changing your opinion because of what he's said...?

I did ask if he thought he could still help me figure out how to face the rest of my childhood issues so I don't choose this kind of relationship again. He responded by asking me if I thought I needed to find another therapist who would agree with me.

The more I look at this description, the more I think he knows what he’s doing. Do you see that Longtire?

I said no, but now I'm wondering. It would be nice to stop arguing over whether this behavior is abuse or not, or normal or not and just work on my remaining childhood issues!

Are you arguing about it with him? (Did you argue, disagree?) If so, why argue – you were there with your wife, he wasn’t. Your opinion is what matters, his opinion doesn’t matter. Is it possible that you are already working on your childhood issues with him?

[Anonymous]

Longtire,

This is just my perspective on this, take it or leave it.  (I don't have my spell checker set up yet so bear with me please.)  It seems to me that you feel, believe that your wife's main interest in the marriage is financial.  So you feel used (abused) by her as being nothing more than a money bag to her.  If this is correct that this is how you feel, have you explained this to your therapist?

I have a lot of thoughts on your situation so I'm just going to express them.  You both were young and damaged when you were married, and this marriage was precipitated by a pregnancy.  As can often be the case in such a situation, one person is avoidant of intimacy and the other person is desperately seeking intimacy.

I also think intimacy is something one must first experience with oneself and God and only then are they ready to experience it with another.  Also another person is not capable of totally fulfilling our needs of intimacy and because of that I think that one's primary source of intimacy has to be between oneself and God.  I think this is what you need to understand in order to avoid getting in this situation again.  I would also be cautious with looking to your parents for "support" at this time.  They did not adequately support you when you were younger and I don't think their support would be actually helpful and possibly a detrament from you actually dealing with the childhood issues that brought you into this situation in the first place.

I believe your wife has been successful in fulfilling her unhealthy needs of avoidance of intimacy and you have been a participant of this for a long time.  I'm going to talk about this a little more at the end of the post.

I agree with your therapist that the discussion you had with your wife concerning the budget was not an example of poor communication but instead a normal healthy conversation.  I did not find your wive's comment of "Was the car work an emergancy?" to be totally out of place.  Yes it was a bit of a dig, but even normal people do these things and so I don't find that this was totally out of the scale of "normalcy".  I also think your comments that she "interupted" you with the comment were a bit out of place.  A husband and wife who are DISCUSSING things don't interupt but contribute to the conversation and if you view her contributions as "interuptions" than I think this is a problem.  If you don't want her to be a "little girl", be careful not to treat her as one.  At the same time I understand your frustration with her lack of concern in the past with sound financial planning.

I think the idea of a belated Christmas gift of money for the two of you, after suggesting an aniversary gift of money is not within the scope of "normal" considering the situation of your marriage.  It makes me think she wants money right now for something and I would be intent on finding out exactly what is going on there concerning that.  At the same time I think I would make it clear to her that you feel that she is only interested in the financial aspects of the marriage if this is how you truly feel and let her know that such suggestions on her part tend to make you feel this way.  I would definitely bring this up as an example to your therapist.

Back to your wife's avoidance of intimacy.  I'm not really sure you are at the point of being ready to give up this relationship.  Your teeter tottering gives me this indication.  Are you sure you don't want to give it one more all or nothing chance?  If you don't that's fine.  If you do I think the both of you need to get serious.  She needs to stop leaving the house and the two of you need to start doing things together.  

I have to say I'm a bit concerned with the dynamics of what is going on in your household now.  You and your daughter going out to dinner, watching TV together, etc, while your wife is out who knows where, doing who knows what.  Seems to me that you and your daughter are doing husband/wife things while your wife is out doing teenage girl things.  I think this needs to stop for everyones sake, including and especially your daughter's sake.  This is not normal.  How does your wife and daughter get along?  Do they go out alone together ever?  If your wife and daughter also spend a lot of time alone together I retract all that I have said here concerning this and what I am about to say.  If your wife and your daughter don't spend much time together and you or your wife aren't willing to put a serious effort into your marriage (by her stop going out alone and the two of you, you and your wife doing things together AND the three of you as a family doing things together) then I strongly suggest you and your wife AT LEAST seperate until you decide what to do so as this what appears to be an unhealty dynamic with your daughter does not continue.

I hope this doesn't come off as too critical and again this is just my perspective and I'm not in the situation so I can be way off on things.

LM