My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[Stormchild Guesting]

oopsie. sorry. Ns sometimes retaliate; Borderlines almost always do. Keep an eye on that kitty.

[October]

Stormchild, thank you for the post and the heads up.  It is very timely, as I have been reading about PTSD throughout the day.  I believe that Complex or Chronic PTSD is the same as PDSD, though it sounds like PDSD is more directly focused on the cause of the problems.

http://www.bein.com/trauma/

This is a ptsd support site which I also belong to.  There is information there about ptsd (although less about cptsd) and how it affects people, and also some very loving people.

Not chasing anyone away - I visit both.  

[longtire]

Stormchild, I absolutely plan to take my cat, if only for my own emotional comfort.  My wife has never been physically violent, but I don't know how she's going to react to my leaving.  Who knows, she might be relieved and happy to see me go.

October, you brought tears to my eyes with your SeaWall peom.  You have really captured the soul of these situations.  Thank you for sharing that and your experience and your soul with us.  Thanks for the link as well.

mudpuppy pointed out to me in a PM that I hadn't talked about my daughter in a while.  I expect her to spend equal time and mom's and at dad's.  She is 16 so I'll talk with her and take her feelings and wishes into account before deciding.  If my wife tries to keep this from happening, I'll file the Temporary Restraining Order through my lawyer to get access.  Of course, once that happens it will be much more difficult to avoid divorce.  I know my boundaries here, and the rest is up to her.

I had an insight tonight as I was coming home.  As usual, I was feeling more angry and emotionally "aroused" (minds out of the gutter ) the closer to home I got.  I think this is my body's way of gearing up to protect myself from what I perceive as a dangerous situation.  Since the danger here is emotional/psychological/mental, my reaction is primarily in the same realm.  Of course, this then spills over into physical reactions to the other reactions.  I think that is at least part of the reason why I am having problems sleeping.

I also think that the doubt I feel when I first get home is another way I try to avoid the problem.  If I'm wrong and she's right, all I have to do is give in and then I'm done.  No more trying.  Of course, no more caring, getting needs met, no more happiness, etc. if I cave in and give up on myself.  I've been down that road in the past as well.  I would suppress and get depressed or numb to avoid feeling anything.  I won't do that anymore.  There is no action, no solution, and no end to the pain that way.  Appeasement does NOT work in an abusive situation, it only prolongs it.

[Stormchild Guesting]

Appeasement does NOT work in an abusive situation, it only prolongs it.

Bravo longtire           !

You're absolutely right.

Narcissism and abusiveness are progressive diseases just like substance abuse... they don't stay stable, they always get worse. Maybe quickly, maybe slowly, but they always get worse.

Best of luck and I'm glad you'd already made plans to take the kitty, I felt badly about possibly causing you worry but would have felt worse if I'd said nothing and your cat was harmed.

[OR]

Hey Long,

Keep making your plans, just do it without being so perfect.
Keep praying about it. YOU have to make the choice; getting approval from everyone else will keep you frozen with too many choices.

If you stay here for support everyone will want to see you step away from your pain.
You go to church; they will tell you it's always best if you can stay together.
YOU must take responsibility for YOU. In the end it will be down to YOU.
The emotional rollercoaster will be gone from your life; you will have time for YOU. In time seeking approval from YOUwill come with ease. Being approval seeking from everyone else needs balance, there is none with the N. Balance in your life it should be a goal for anyone.

Having made my plans to do a job-transfer, made me stick to my plans.
Not to follow through,I would LOOK like a total flake  I believe in being responsible, keeping your word on something. All these people had been expecting me, my job had made plans, hired another person, my paper work had to be filed wtih the people in Dallas, I had to leave.

My H's medical problems made travel impossible for him to leave at that time, so maybe on the surface it was easy to say we would be "separated” for a short while and meet up later when he could travel by plane.

In your plan to separate is any plan to move forward. Make a commitment to something so you won't want to back-out.

I have not missed my H, keeping so busy no time for it. I can't believe it has been over 1 month. I'm still waiting for the Divorce part to happen; right now I’m storing up energy to deal with it.

MY life will only be altered not over.

Take Care Long.   OR

[longtire]

Keep making your plans, just do it without being so perfect.

OR, I'm so far from perfect, I don't even know which direction it is!  That hasn't stopped my internal 3yo for looking for it all these years.  I think I have given him enough love and reassurance for the moment that he is willing for us to be not-perfect and still expects to be loved and cared for.

If you stay here for support everyone will want to see you step away from your pain.
You go to church; they will tell you it's always best if you can stay together.
YOU must take responsibility for YOU. In the end it will be down to YOU.

Yes, AND I need to get all my internal children together on the same page as well.  I think the external back and forth has just been a reflection of the internal.  Ultimately, resolving that will help everything else.

Having made my plans to do a job-transfer, made me stick to my plans.  Not to follow through,I would LOOK like a total flake  I believe in being responsible, keeping your word on something. All these people had been expecting me, my job had made plans, hired another person, my paper work had to be filed wtih the people in Dallas, I had to leave.

In your plan to separate is any plan to move forward. Make a commitment to something so you won't want to back-out.

I am going out this afternoon to look at places to stay and hopefully put money down on one.  Once I have an address, I can really get started on the move.  It is tough because I feel like my wife is trying to be more chatty since I pulled back and stopped volunteering information.  I feel the pull of the hoover on me, but each time I go through the mental steps of why I made the decision in the first place.  I come to the same conclusion each time.  Each time I do this, it gets easier to do.  I am really encouraged by your example OR, and am very glad that you have shared your experiences with us.

A quick note on the latest exchange.  She called and left a message and asked if "we" could give some money to a friend of hers who is down on her luck.  Actually she asked me to pray about it.  Her friend has no money, works 3 jobs, only had liability insurance and got in a wreck that totaled her car.  So my wife calls back later that day, and asks me if I've considered it and I told her that I had.  I asked what amount she was thinking to give and she asked me how much I was thinking (this happens all the time), so I told her $100.  She said that she was thinking $200.  (hint, hint)  I told her that I felt comfortable with $100, but that she could give $100 out of her own money to get it up to $200 total.  She said that she didn't have any money left and would just take out the $100, which she did.  i feel good about it because at the end of the day, I stuck to what I felt was right and didn't cave in to get some illusory approval from her.  The approval never seems to happen anyway.  Any comments?

[Anonymous]

Any comments?

Yeah. Did her friend get the money?

mudpup

[vunil as guest]

It is tough because I feel like my wife is trying to be more chatty since I pulled back and stopped volunteering information.

pretty classic behavior---then when you start to relax she'll get mean again.  Been there, suffered that...

[bunny]

longtire,

Who is this "friend"? It seems your wife becomes friendly when she wants cash.

bunny

[OR]

Long: This is a good start, make a commitment. Get some balance in your life. Sort out all the rest when you get some peace in your life.

I am going out this afternoon to look at places to stay and hopefully put money down on one. Once I have an address, I can really get started on the move

Make it easy, find a place, separate understand your wife will try the nicey, nice stuff because she needs her N-supply. Once she gets you to drop your guard she will come in for the feeding. I have seen my H do it over an over. I would always fall for his kindness as he must be feeling better.

The approval never seems to happen anyway.  Any comments?

Your wife asking you to help her friend could also be away to get your guard down. Maybe if you would give to a friend you would for sure give to her. She needs to make sure her supply is still there for her.  

Long My husband had a medical evaluation report with the conclusion of  a self-absorbed N. This helped me to understand it was not just  physical pain.

 ( Now there are laws to keep his medical records private)
I think the laws should not be kept from the spouse, but that's another story.
 
I would say being understanding of your wife's personality you have no balance with her condition. Your conclusion should be you want to be healthy, happy, you want Love and understanding. You are alone emotionaly most of the time because she is not there for you like she should be.


One time in your young life, you had a connection with your wife because you had a lack of love in your family.

Years ago when you married we lacked knowedge,  the things we have learned from the  internet, TV, Ophra, Dr Laura, etc.
Our belief system was lacking in the knowledge to make educated decisions. Now you can find out things about people you never would believe. We were from another time when we got married.

Both your parents lack of understanding of there children had an affect on your decision to marry each other. Your understanding of who you are and who she is has changed. If she wanted to heal she would have done more to make it happen. She needs help for her, to allow balance for you. Her being N will not let that happen.

Your decision to move forward will allow your inter-child to grow.
Your parents will not be there to stomp your growth.
NOW you can grow-up in a healthy way.

Let your daughter see you as a healthy Father, strong because you made a decision to try another way to grow and be healthy.
She wants to understand how to see happiness what it looks like.

Take Care,  OR

[longtire]

OR, I feel really understood and supported when I read your comments.  I know they come from someone who understands because they have been there and done that.

Make it easy, find a place, separate understand your wife will try the nicey, nice stuff because she needs her N-supply. Once she gets you to drop your guard she will come in for the feeding. I have seen my H do it over an over. I would always fall for his kindness as he must be feeling better.

I drove around and looked at and called about a bunch of lease houses today.  I have an appointment with a realtor tomorrow to go look at the top ones I picked out.  They look really nice and I would not have to worry about noise with apartment neighbors, either theirs OR mine!  Wish me luck!  As for the kindness ploy, it was eye opening for me to read my journal from 10 years ago and see NO DIFFERENCE in our relationship.  I mean none!  That blew my mind.  All the things I tried and all the learning and growth for me over a decade did absolutely nothing in this relationship.  Its effect on my own life and my relationship with my daughter are different matters.

Your wife asking you to help her friend could also be away to get your guard down. Maybe if you would give to a friend you would for sure give to her. She needs to make sure her supply is still there for her.

 
She also has a pattern of seeking out needy people and playing caretaker(starting with her mother)/giver/martyr as a way to feel good about herself.  One way to get supply of gratitude or moral superiority.  She has often done this uninvited to people in the past and then gotten very angry and cut off ties with the recipients for not giving "enough" back to her.  So much for freely caring and giving.

I would say being understanding of your wife's personality you have no balance with her condition. Your conclusion should be you want to be healthy, happy, you want Love and understanding. You are alone emotionaly most of the time because she is not there for you like she should be.

Whether I "should" or not, I do want to be healthy and happy with Love and deep connections in my life.  Whether she "should" be there emotionally or not, she isn't.  The difficulty for me is that she always claimed and still claims that there is nothing wrong and she wants intimacy more than anything, she is just waiting for me (to give in again) to go ahead and do it.  If she said "I hate intimacy, I will never do that" it would have been a lot easier for me to recognize and leave.  She tries to have it both ways, "safe" without intimacy (enmeshment/merging/overwhelm), and in control by withholding herself until I am no longer "angry."

This is related to her comment the other day along the lines that she didn't want to work on anything hard until we had built a strong relationship and just wants to have fun with each other for a while first.  Then, when we have a strong relationship, we could start working on the issues between us.  The cluelessness never ceases to astound me.  I think she has made a fatal mistake this time, though.  Not only is she not willing to talk with me, I am not willing to talk with her any longer without behavioral indications of my safety.  Not her words.  At this point, she needs to convince me that she has woken up and realized some things and made some serious changes in her life.  This is what it will take not just right now, but also if there is ever any chance of this relationship coming back together.  That is why I feel the suction of the hoover, but don't give in.  Where are the behavior changes and the supporting info behind why she made them?

One time in your young life, you had a connection with your wife because you had a lack of love in your family.

Years ago when you married we lacked knowedge,  the things we have learned from the  internet, TV, Ophra, Dr Laura, etc.
Our belief system was lacking in the knowledge to make educated decisions. Now you can find out things about people you never would believe. We were from another time when we got married.

Both your parents lack of understanding of there children had an affect on your decision to marry each other. Your understanding of who you are and who she is has changed. If she wanted to heal she would have done more to make it happen. She needs help for her, to allow balance for you. Her being N will not let that happen.

Yes, exactly.  I wonder whether my choice to numb out some time after coming out of depression was an un-/semi-conscious way of trying to slow down to keep from leaving her behind?  Ultimately, I have to run life at a pace which is right for me.  If she has a fundamentally different pace, then we (I) need to face reality and accept that.

Your decision to move forward will allow your inter-child to grow.
Your parents will not be there to stomp your growth.
NOW you can grow-up in a healthy way.

Let your daughter see you as a healthy Father, strong because you made a decision to try another way to grow and be healthy.
She wants to understand how to see happiness what it looks like.

Since I stopped spending my life (obsessing) trying to fix my relationship with my wife, I have spent it fixing my relationship with me and all the little me's inside.  I have been passing on as much of that as I possibly can to my daughter.  I have told her before that if I can tell or show her something now that will save her pain later in life I will do it, but also that there are some lessons each of us can only learn on our own.  The more tools I show her, the better she will be able to respond to problems at any point in her life.


I get it now how I am responsible for living my life and making the decisions.  If I don't make the decisions, bad things will happen because I am not rowing my boat, just drifting wherever other people's currents take me.  If I row, I might be rowing in the wrong direction.  For a while.  Until I decide to go in another direction.  Even if I make a terrible mistake and row in the absolute wrong direction for a while, I can just turn around and go the right way.  I might even learn something along the way. Doing almost anything intentionally is better than doing nothing or drifting at other peoples' whims, even when it turns out to be the worng thing.  It is hard for me to describe, but I get it.

[OR]

Hey Long

I will always wish you luck in what ever it is you're doing.
Even if you choose to row your boat in another direction than others think you should go.
If I thought it was the wrong direction I may still keep my view, but would be there to let you know I'm here for support if you should so inquire. Keep making decisions, make mistakes just keep growing.

As for the kindness ploy, it was eye opening for me to read my journal from 10 years ago and see NO DIFFERENCE in our relationship. I mean none! That blew my mind. All the things I tried and all the learning and growth for me over a decade did absolutely nothing in this relationship

.

While moving my things into boxes I would come across items that would remind  me of  my past pains. It would confirm I was going the only direction I could to heal. Understanding it was time to stop the madness.

The years of wanting to do the right thing for the family. trying to get through each day. My H  would overreact then the next day he would act like nothing ever happened, we would all be friends again. I would try not to live in the past , let it go. he would be nice, get me back in a place where he felt he could do it again.

While he worked it was not as bad. After 5 years of him on Disability no one to think about but himself, it was too much.
All the N behaviors were magnified 100X. With age and health problems it only gets worse.

He made the decision to not let me come to Dallas.
He wanted to come here by himself, leaviing our Daughter too. His brother would wonder why he would give up his family like that. You read about the N they are willing to leave with no emotion. He thought he would start over agian leaving us with no concern how we would survive.
One day he would say how wonderful it would be for me if I could transfer, then the next day he would tell me not to go, he didn't want me to bother HIS family.

This allowed me to leave without looking back. I knew he was going to do it to us. I just got out before him. CA is too expensive to live there. I learned once I got here, He got a lump sum of money and never told me.
he also was getting money from my D, he wanted her to stay so he could keep her income. It was all about money for him. I was tolerable while he needed my income. I think now once he got his settlement and thought he could get his brother to help him here, he didn't need me. How sad.

I hope he ejoyed the money, I never saw a dime of it. I bet he will expect me to give him support too.

Life goes on.  Im glad to be where Im at.  OR





I'm sorry if I used the "should's" no one wants someone to tell them what they should be doing. I guess it's my own mind changing, telling me for so long, love, understanding, balance, was so lacking in my life.
That anyone would be normal or should to want this in their life.

Long I wish you the best and you are still my hero.

[Anonymous]

I get it now how I am responsible for living my life and making the decisions.  If I don't make the decisions, bad things will happen because I am not rowing my boat, just drifting wherever other people's currents take me.  If I row, I might be rowing in the wrong direction.  For a while.  Until I decide to go in another direction.  Even if I make a terrible mistake and row in the absolute wrong direction for a while, I can just turn around and go the right way.  I might even learn something along the way. Doing almost anything intentionally is better than doing nothing or drifting at other peoples' whims, even when it turns out to be the worng thing.  It is hard for me to describe, but I get it.

I would agree that you do "get it now".  It's like you had a terrible fear of making mistakes, but life is full of mistakes, that's what we learn from .  So allow yourself to make a few mistakes, it's the only way to LIVE.  

LM

[longtire]

Hi all.  Its been several days since I posted, that a long time for me.  I've been confused for the last few days.  Maybe typing it out here will help me figure out what is going on or get over it.

I've been looking for houses to rent.  It's tough because by the time I found out about them, many are already rented!  There must be a housing shortage around here.  The first couple of place I looked at were alright, but kind of old and dingy.  I've been feeling that I didn't want to stay in the house I'm in now with my wife because of too much hate and anger associated with it.  But, then I started getting angry.  Why do I have be the one to move out?  Why can't I make her move out?  Yes, the adult me knows why, because I can only make decisions for my own life, not anyone else's.  These feelings were coming from the 3yo inside me, though, so that explanation didn't help.  I realized that I do like this house after all.  It is not overly large, but feels open and spacious.  All of my things are here.  My daughter is here.  I don't want to live somewhere dark and closed in.  I have enough of that feeling as it is.  I don't want to have to give up the things I will be giving up by moving out.  I know that I can't live in the same house as my wife right now, though.  My adrenaline kicks in and I start getting angry after I get in the car to come home.  Evenings and nights are the hardest times for me.  When I'm at work I feel energized and happy.  When I'm at home, I feel nervious and waiting for the other shoe to drop like it has all these years.

In addition to feeling ambivalent about moving out, there is the frustratingly slow pace of the house search.  Plus, I am questioning again.  It would be easy if my wife "fit" in some category that I could point to and say "See, this is recognized by others as a problem."  To me it looks like some of NPD and some of BPD, but not any of the overt, obvious traits.  I question whether I am "just being too sensitive."  I question whether it is really *me* with these traits and I am projecting them onto my wife.  Every time I read a description of NPD or BPD, I start saying, "Wait, I do that some, maybe this is really me."  My brain knows better, but the fear comes anyway.  I think back to the times when I was reacting to my wife and I did do some of the things described.  However, I am not happy about it and have worked to get out of that way of acting because I believe it was wrong of me.  Doesn't that indicate I am not NPD or BPD?  So why am I still afraid?  I know it is covert verbal and emotional abuse and hard to spot by others.  I know it is crazy-making.  How do I get un-crazy?  I am afraid of moving out and living on my own and taking care of the everyday things.  I have done these things perfectly well for at least 20 years without any problems.  Why do I feel so overwhelmed and afraid.

I'm so tired of coming here to post and moping and whining.  Why is it so hard for me to just be happy?  I have good days a lot anymore, but that makes the down days seem even worse.  Like the good is right there, but I just can't keep hold of it.  I had another rough night with only 2-1/2 hours of sleep.  This time I woke up at 1:30AM and couldn't get back to sleep.  I journaled for several hours, but that didn't help, just occupied me for a while.  I wonder if I some form of PTSD, but again I don't fit the usual profile.  I read the description of verbal abuse in Evans' book and it fits me to a "t" but I still question whether I have exaggerated what happened.  I used to think I was a strong decisive person, but I seem to wrestle with even the simplest decisions anymore.  I called for an appointment with a psychiatrist to at least get something to help me sleep.  Maybe if there is something else going on, they can help with that.  I had to jump through some insurance hoops, but it will be covered.  I'll try to setup the actual appointment tomorrow.  At least 3 weeks wait to get in and see them!  In the meantime, I am taking antihistamines at night to help me sleep.  I don't want to do that more than 2-3 nights in a row to avoid problems.

I have an appointment with my new counselor on Monday, so I am looking forward to that.  I talked with my real estate agent last night after looking at a pretty nice house.  She has been divorced a little over a year and has had similar experiences with God and taking the high road throughout.  That really lifted my spirits and helped me feel more connected.

I wrote above about feeling overwhelmed.  I think that is it.  I'm not numbing out or supressing it any longer.  This is what it feel like to be married to my wife.  Lonely and overwhelmed by trying to make sense out of irrationality, denial, and contradictory statements.  My ability to deal with emotions has been overwhelmed for many years, not just in this relationship, but all the way back from my childhood.  I'm just more aware of it and not avoiding it any longer.  It feel like crap!  Also, when I'm in this state I am more vulnerable to verbal, emotional, and even phsyical attacks.  It makes sense why I was bullied at school.  I was too overwhelmed to adequately defend myself.  That is why I need to get my own place.  Somewhere safe where I can just feel the overwhelm and loneliness without having to be ready to protect myself from attack at any time.  I get it!  That is why I didn't try to leave before.  I wasn't in a safe place to heal and I was too overwhelmed to try to leave without more strength.  Catch-22.  Being overwhelmed is also why I am having such a hard time putting together a narrative that I really believe in.  My history makes sense in my head, but I'm afraid to trust it because I am still in the midst of the problem.  Therefore, I am not healthy yet, so I can't trust myself.  I'm looking for something more concrete outside of myself to base the decision and choice to move out on.  I suppose I just need to take a leap of faith to move out and trust that things will turn out OK, even if I make a mistake.  My fear is that I may end up somewhere worse if I make a mistake and I'm not sure I will have the strength to get out of that then.  This fear supposes that I am alone and there is no one to help.  That is a memory from my childhood, when it was true.  It is not true now.  I am finding my family of choice.  I am an adult and have the ability to make good forward-looking adult decisions and do what I need to do in order to achieve my goals.

Well, I do feel better having recognized this.  I guess with so many years of unresolved stuff, I need to cough these hairballs up somewhere.  Lucky you to share in this.   "See" you tomorrow.

[Anonymous]

longthread, I mean longpost, I mean longtire , have you considered renting a small little apartment on a short-term lease?  It wouldn't tie you into anything long-term and would give you some space.  You touched on a lot in this last post.  I think this fear is an important topic for you to explore.  I have to admit that I can't totally relate to where you are coming from because even as a child I had a very strong connection to God so I never felt alone.  He was always there and He was a great Father.

As far as the family home, if you were to get divorced, do you really think you would want to live there?  I mean all the memories and what kind of new start in life is that?  Things may seem like they are dark and gloomy now but you got to trust God that there is a bright future ahead.  Well you don't have to trust Him but it sure makes life easier.

You now recognize that you had problems even before your wife came into the picture.  In my opinion neither of you were in a position to help the other grow.  I really suggest longtire that you don't try to make this decision based on and about how bad her problems are.  I don't think you'll be happy in the end if you do.  I mean this is about you, right?  What you have to do for yourself.

LM