Author Topic: Mindfulness and codependence thread  (Read 136916 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #780 on: February 04, 2022, 07:09:21 PM »
Sadly, seems like some of this started with dog biscuits...which one could think of as a friend-to-friend kind of gift or "intimacy." Seems so kind and innocent, but not too long after, he's wedging new *loaded* issues into his "friendly conversation." (Interrogation.) Guard your privacy, is my thought. It's not snobby to be reserved.

I found that sticking to my lane with employees or "services" is important. I HATE classism but at the same time, don't feel I need to be ashamed of the fact that I live in a house and some people who come to help me are working harder or  are more economically pressured. I am kind and generous but NOT COZY with them. I am a woman living alone and my safety and psychological comfort is mine to protect.

All that matters is courtesy. There's a lot of stretch in "courtesy" -- and keeping an emotional distance and not getting into cozy palsy conversations is, I believe, a decent layer to maintain with unproven strangers. I think getting into a lot of casual chat with a stranger who comes to your home can backfire. It's about boundaries.

As lonely as many are due to the pandemic, and as much positive (and deserved) publicity toward drivers and service workers has helped a lot of entitled people to shift their views of people who "serve" them...and at the same time, a lot of people may be really dropping their boundaries out of sorrow or guilt at the disparities.

But. Boundary invasions can happen in a lot of subtle ways. That neighbor who so triggered me was also pushing "neighborly friendship" but I did (for once) realize fast that his vibes were off. A simple SHORT casual exchange about dogs is one thing, but getting to the point where FedEx man is offering a GIFT (home-made dog biscuits) inches potentially into relationship territory which, unhappily, can be a first step toward feeling a vague obligation to him. To chat, to listen, to answer intrusive questions, veer into personal politics, etc. I think the FedEx man is intruding.

I think a whole lot of this is subliminal. Training. Training especially of women. Just because a man wants to engage me, doesn't mean I have to go along with it. I live in a different world than men do, and when I'm dealing with stranger-men, I choose to remember it. But after eons of practice, I can do it confidently, not brittlely, not anxiously. Just nod, thanks or whatever, and SHUT THE DOOR. Just going away. It's a simple human move. So if he starts again? Go away from him. That's not running, that's walking on your own feet. By choice. GRAY ROCK him. (Boy, W feel for it too, didn't he?)

Hope the tension eases and he gets no more real estate in your head! But I'm happy to listen to your observations and these stories anyway. It really helps me learn and think. (I preach a lot but have to learn everything I tell anybody else, really.)

hugs
Hops
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Phyll

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #781 on: February 04, 2022, 11:29:53 PM »
Thanks Hops, I agree.  So far, the Fed Ex man has been relegated to leaving things in the box, or reading our new sign to leave very HEAVY items on the ground outside the box.  W and I already agreed we will not be letting our dogs consume any homemade biscuits should they be dropped off.  I have a feeling they won't be though.
When I left to go to the post office today, I was mindful to look to see if any delivery trucks were on the road.  I plan to keep Fed Ex on the other side of the fence where he belongs!

Twoapenny

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #782 on: February 05, 2022, 06:25:11 AM »
That Fed Ex man and your neighbour sound like they'd get on well, Phyll, regardless of whether they know one another or not.  Urgh.  I think there are more people now who turn every conversation into what they want to talk about, regardless of the content.  It is hard to get away, as others have said (and you have found!).  And as Lighter says, you get those people who get angry that you didn't do what they wanted (like your crazy neighbour) and then you have that whole drama to deal with as well.
 
I've been channeling Hopsie's aloof neighbour because of all the problems we've had with our neighbours and it's got easier the more I've done it.  It goes against my natural personality, which ordinarily is friendly, chatty, get on with the neighbours kind of stuff.  They don't like it, I've heard them talking about me, but it does mean I don't get drawn in to OPD - Other People's Drama.  It's a shame that you have to be on your guard - I don't want to assume that every person who approaches me or speaks to me at all is going to cause me a problem but so many have I do tend to, again, as Hopsie says, be polite but I don't do any more than that (and I find not making eye contact works - I just keep looking at the ground and they don't tend to keep talking then.  Don't bump into anything, though ;) ).  I feel like I need people to prove they're worth my time a bit more these days.  Hopefully you won't bump in to him again.  It's frustrating when you've had to take steps to protect yourself already that there's still someone who'll over step the mark.

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #783 on: February 05, 2022, 09:51:39 AM »
I've gotten so many nosy questions from delivery people over the years, I no longer think much about it. But I can't really dismiss the behavior as harmless either. I mean, maybe because they're alone in their vehicle all day they do look for opportunities to interact with someone who appears approachable. Some of those guys really have tried to look out for me, too - in kind helpful ways.

But this also a tactic used by those with more nefarious intentions. So the only thing I pay attention to are my inner signals (intuition) about whether this incident happening right now, makes me uncomfortable. And I give higher priority to my comfort over what someone else may think about me. I can remove myself without excuse or explanation. I can start drawing attention to the situation, by expressing any number of distress sounds, louder & louder - and I can be very loud. Or I can shift my behavior to a more defensive, ready to rumble stance. Because it's NOT a given that another person can actually hear your stated boundary, and there is no expectation that a person will respect it.

Many do; and often the situation can be shifted to something else more comfortable for everyone through acknowledging a mix-up in hearing and signals. But if I make an outright statement, or issue a command - I'm preparing already to be able to defend it. Always breath a sign of relief when I don't have to.

But I'm more "all business" with a "resting bitch face" these days... so I don't often run into these situations anymore. Hol doesn't always think this is a good way to be; reduces opportunities to meet/be friendly with new people. And B is even worse than I am - he looks scary. And people should be scared of him - despite him being a sweet kind and gentle soul. Betrayal and intense hurt have made him more proactive at not even getting into those kinds of situations. Very wary and always on top of how a situation can go sideways.
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lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #784 on: February 15, 2022, 12:10:24 AM »
J was struggling a few weeks ago and put some on my plate........ which threw me off my center.

Meaning.... she was feeling unsafe and looking for some control..... and dumped some of her stuff on me, it was about the eating disorder stuff and a mistake I made.  I'm not monitoring her closely and she felt I should have noticed she stopped eating at a time I invited widowed friend for lunch after ATL visit to nutritionists office.... we had back to back appointments. Lunch seemed like a no brainer. DD disagreed and was angry. I cancelled.  DD stayed mad and was angry when she brought it up again.  J's an adult and I feel she's doing better and handling her stuff.  I told her that, then called my T and made an appointment, which is back to once weekly appointments for a while.  I'm working on my own codependence stuff and I think J understands now, but she didn't.

The two recent appointments with my T have been really good. We worked on acceptance today.  Every time I turn a corner the word acceptance has a deeper meaning than I understood. 

Lighter


sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #785 on: February 15, 2022, 09:05:44 AM »
Ummmm....

at her age, J has to understand it's not reasonable to expect "mom" to adjust/adapt her choices to accomodate J's. Perfectly fine if she doesn't want to eat; doesn't want to participate in lunch - but that isn't a requirement for you to do the same.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding the situation here. That's what it looked like to me, when I read it.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #786 on: February 15, 2022, 11:47:49 AM »
That's the situation, Amber. You got it right.

I think her T must have set her straight the same day she brought up the discussion.  She's been super chill and said she doesn't need to discuss it any further.

Lighter


sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #787 on: February 15, 2022, 12:49:43 PM »
I've been through my share of "bite the hand that feeds you", being the bitten one - recently. I was just a bit afraid I was seeing it through that lens - especially with the strong emotional connection I had to my reaction.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #788 on: February 19, 2022, 08:08:32 PM »
DDJ seems to have worked through the crisis she was experiencing....the one that drove her into the kitchen where she dumped her stuff on me.

Turns out it was college applications and figuring out where to apply.  She's chosen 4 to visit and her spirit feels light and happy now that's decided.

DDL is back on duty caring for the Pug and doing her own food prep.   J expected L to behave like a toddler when asked, but that didn't happen. L was happy to step back into her responsibilities. She looks forward to work on Monday.

I'm going to gobble up every moment before they're grown and out of the house, bc it will happen and I'll be sad when it does.

Good boundaries in place and enforcement of same means the girls are healthier and happier. 

I'm putting a pot of Pho on and making Vietnamese Curry Chicken before I go.  The girls can take care of the rest. 

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #789 on: February 20, 2022, 09:46:24 AM »
Crisis weathered, then. I'm glad to hear it, Lighter.

Consider that when the girls are both out, off at college,
how much joy you'll take in preparing for holidays. There'll
probably have to be negotiations about how many friends
they can bring home with them!

I hope you'll look forward to the time that's just for you.

hugs
Hops
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lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #790 on: February 21, 2022, 12:51:04 AM »
I'm just leaning into what's here, now, Hops. 

Will focus on the trip when I leave in the morning.

When I get back, I'll go with J on campus tours she plans herself.  I'm in the passenger seat on the college stuff.  She's the driver.

Today L set up healthcare through her work and that was interesting.  She read EVERYTHING..... such patience and attention to detail.  I had to ask her to read things over many times, bc I kept going blank.... ahhhhhh all that legal and medical double speak. GAK.  When L was little she was like a little calendar with dates and details. Even in Pre School.... I'd ask her what and when and she'd happily cherp up with the correct information. 

I have to do something useful now and sleep.

Nite,  Hops: )

Lighter 



Lighter: )

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #791 on: February 21, 2022, 09:18:23 AM »
Rest, relax & have fun Lighter!
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #792 on: March 09, 2022, 02:17:08 PM »

This is my ramble. 
The horror in the Ukraine caught me and held me down yesterday.  It was the video of Ukrainian hospice children loaded on a train and the look in their parent's and caretaker's eyes.  It's THE THING.... it's coming face to face with a psychopath's willingness to light the world on fire, children on fire, (lit. ad fig.) and let them burn to gain something, sometimes just to feel the flames and listen to the screaming, I think.  Sometimes to build a legacy. Sometimes it's greed or lust or their own trauma burning inside the psychopath, IMO.  It's THAT thing and it's in every corner of the world, likely.  It's here,  in our prisons and foster homes and homes where children are preyed on by the people charged with their care..... it's on the inernet and in all the "good men" who provide a market for human trafficking and child sexual predation here and abroad and I've accepted I'll never understand it so I hope to stop wasting my moments screaming it out silently in my head or otherwise into space.

So, radical acceptance of what I cannot change.

Doing what I can, where I can, as i can stand it then turning back to what's in front of me. 

And there's more spaciousness in my life..... it's a byproduct of working on creating more space and I don't notice it until the pressures increase, which they have, of course with the Ukraine and travel and my friend's loss, but a day doesn't go by when my attention isn't drawn to the symptoms of broken systems and culture and community...... the incarcerated for profit, the children suffering for all the reasons they suffr, the lack of support for yioung single mothers, the lack of support for people and parents in domestic violence situations but I've learned to notice it without neeeeding it to BE different NOW all the time.  It's always been on my radar..... if not the incarcerated, then always always the children bc I suffered as a sensitive child, as all children do, more or less and noticed the suffering of other children and my siblings.  It left a mark.  I worked with my T on that, specifically.

The Ukraine is a huge humanitarian crisis unfolding before our eyes and these are the times we notice those who aren't bothered by the suffering of others, IME.  I'm noticing  people who believe they're better than people who look different than them or people born into poverty and suffering..... the people who never cared about refugee children separated from their parents or how the justice system works for the wealthy but chews up the poor for profit.... like the armed services (EVERYONE SHOULD CARE our vets aren't receiving proper CARE)..... it's everywhere, all the time and those who SEE it  are either nose on the pebble in despair or seeing it with some distance, bc being overwhelmed and paralyzed and unable to respond helps NO ONE.

Lately I think about people without empathy..... those who have no compassion for the incarcertated, the most vulnerable, all refugees and especially those fleeing war zones.... and I believe they're among the predators or those who enable them... or DIM thinkers (denial, ignorance and minimization,) which I've been...not gonna lie.  Sometimes vulberable people  or people who've been preyed on keep their heads down.... people who've been victimized, bc it's difficult to be brave when stuck living in fear.  I'm not judging, just trying to SEE more clearly with eyes unclouded by vengeance...... and it's greed and a society chewing up children who grow into psychopaths who impact the lives of the many, bc..... the systems are what they are.  People fight their own dragons and are kept in the dark about what they're taught and what they work for and how things are set up to funnel money into a few pockets while exploiting the masses and life goes on.

Sometimes my youngest dd is so upset by how the world works..... I feel she'll go into politics and fight hard for change.  Shake things up.  Then she assures me she'd go mad and would never choose that for herself.  She's a "doomer" and believes the generations before her broke the world beyond repair, but I have to believe her generation and those after her have a chance.  The old greedy giants will die.  They won't take their property or money or power with them..... they'll be inherited by someone who MIGHT care, might step up, might DO the right thing for the greater good and to build a more just world.  It could happen. 

Im hopeful those who inherit won't be sheep.  I'm hopeful they'll care about the earth and the community their children live in, date in, love in and hand off to future generations of grandchildren.... that they'll value the safety and health of everyone on the earth more than hoarding Countries and cash and gold and supply chains, but that's a stretch..... still possible though.

DD19 asked me how I'd feel IF I was plane wrecked on a dessert island..... and people woke up before me and collected all the coconuts making it necessary for me to s*ck d*ck in order to get coconuts and that's how she SEES it, but it's so much worse than that.  The systems, the stock market, the red lining the predatory loans the generational wealth some have enjoyed while others have been banned from it......trading in people and it's not just getting to the coconuts first.  It's so much more complicated and worse than that.

It's the wickedness of the world, which is a static state, as always and always will be.....AND also the failure of good people to act, step up, stop the wicked when they see them and can, but that's sacrifice and sometimes costs everything...... and that bravery is real and alive and necessary to steer civilization away from the dark and into the light.  It's difficult to sacrifice one's own children to a cause that impacts the whole world, but there it is.... I think.  That sacrifice is made regularly by warriors, but it's necessary for regular people too..... has been made by regular people, such brave people.  Life is short.  What do we do and what do we leave behind?  Not everyone asks themselves that question. 

I think enough good people sacrificing all DOES make a difference.  I understand the choice NOT to sacrifice all..... I think all good people make that decision throughout a lifetime whether they're aware of it or not.  Some things are worth total sacrifice, or a bit of sacrifice or none..... everyone makes their choices and lives with them as this generation of children do and those coming after.

I don't know that I pity the psychopaths, but there's compassion for how they were made and that blows back on the community and systems and lack of safety and care, IMO....on childhood trauma and how it's processed.... identifying with the bullies or not..... what does it take to crush an innocent child into a monster.  I have compassion and I'm never for torture.... just an end to the harm.  A T once told me all it takes to form a psychopath is to have parents who are at opposite ends of the parenting spectrum.  He did not mention trauma or abuse. 

Putin sends men to kill strangers as does Biden and any leader who has warriors and a problem they can't solve through other measures.  The strangers kill strangers in the name of whatever the leader calls it, but sometimes it's for a legacy or greed or to watch people burn or to protect borders and people and that's an odd thing..... I've never considered being a warrior directed to kill strangers for reasons I do or don't consider justified. I've always felt protective of vulnerable peers from a young age and sometimes been seen as protective and felt the warmth of support from stranger who didn't like bullies pressing in on me in grade school or later in my life.  People DO step up and do the right thing.  It restores my hope in humanity and brings me to tears when I'm faced with it.   

During the month I spent in a rough County jail I saw the symptoms of our broken society and systems.... people without power, without safety, without protection and one 13yo child who'd been taking off her clothes for money for many years with her Grandmother's knowledge and likely permission.  This child was IN jail bc she'd been using an adult's ID to gain employment in adult clubs.  The woman on the ID was wanted on a serious charge so this child ended up arrested and IN jail for at least a week before my release.  I saw that child so vulnerable and confused... seeking safety next to me, not sure why she chose me, but she did and then she began seeking out attention and drama from the less mature inmates and I remained mortified on her behalf for so many reasons... for everything she suffered.... no parents to protect her, adults preying on her and profiting and enabling allowing ongoing harm..... she didn't tell me when that life began for her, but I suspect her life was always about the pleasure of sociopaths in her life with NO ONE to protect her and that's not as shocking as her time in that jail where SHE was the identified criminal and no one NO ONE thought about the reasons she ended up in that jail cell, on a stage, preyed on as a child, perhps a baby and victimized..... why doesn't anyone care about WHY the symptoms (inmates) are where they are?  Why doesn't anyone care about the reasons broken people end up in prisons... why doesn't anyone STOP the people who harmed them and continue preying on others?  It makes no sense, like our present sick care system makes no sense to me, but there it is.

It's bc the poeple with the power are often among the predators making rules, or the sycophants enabling them or the DIM thinkers or the people who're just struggling to get through their own day.  It's circular and entwined and easier to be a sheep and to protect what one has and those they love. 

Real change comes from regular people brave enough to stand up to the pscyhopaths and demand change or take it FROM them adn maybe the Russians will do that. Someone begins and loses everything before others step up.  That kind of bravery is a glorious mystery..... the Ukrainian women taking up arms and fighting alongside their husbands....knowing full well they might make their children orphans is the kind of sacrifice required to make a stand against Putin.

Putin's parents lived during upheaval and war and starvation and the loss of 2 children and maybe Russians will be willing to make a stand and sacrifices enough to make real change for themselves, but at what cost to their children and grandchildren?  It's a short life and people make choices.  What sacrifices do Russians make if they refuse to support Putin's war?  What will their futures BE if they make that stand?  Maybe it would end life on this planet as we know it?  Maybe the earth would breathe a sigh of relief.

People DO choose the greater good.  Some profit and some give all.  It's just reality and life is short.  People consider and weigh what they value and choose according to risk and what their families will lose.  Short sight or long vision..... Putin doesn't care about leaving a legacy of protection and plenty for anyone but himself, IMO..  Killing protestors and everyone a protester knows, along with must be amazing leverge, yet people still stand up and protest.  People are "free" to protest here, but there's loss of life and sacrifice and blowback and it is what it is..... all the whining by bigots and the entitled shocks my Nervous System into incredulity.  It's difficult not to let that get stuck in my limbic system, but the sky is blue and the grass is green.  I'll get better at bouncing over that too.

Empaths are moved every day by suffering and they make choices around how close their nose is to the pebbles or get swept into despair, IME.... praying,meditating, donating in groups or in solitary solidarity,but those who feel the suffering and act are the hope for change.  The people who stand up and risk limb and family and safety and life are maybe the ones who make the greatest change, but the smaller daily sacrifices have meaning and send messages and may support good causes.... or make psychopaths wealthy....perhaps both.  Making a stand against a tyrant is expensive and terrifying and dangerous....... sometimes simply voting against the tyrant is dangerous.  Safety is relative, always an illusion and devastation never happens exactly like one imagines it will.... at least IME.  Crime rates go through the roof when the right to choose is taken away..... everyone is impacted...maybe not the very tippy top wealthy, but the world is made less safe when women are forced to bear children against their will, esp onces they can't care for.  HOW do people in positions of power not SEE this?  It's ignorance and inability to accept reality?  It's something I'll never understand and I can say I'm not anti abortion.... I'm anti dumbass...... I can't imagine using D&C's as birth control.... but I'll fight for women's right to choose no matter how I feel about it for myself.  Again, I'm gobsmacked when powerful men stand up and threaten or destroy a woman's right to choose..... it sticks in my limbic system.... I have to work at dislodging it.  It makes zero sense, like the behavior of personality disordered individuals.... I accept it will never make sense and put it down.  Let it go.

It's the state of the world and it's not fair or kind or always safe anywhere and we deal with it in the ways we learned to survive as infants... I guess.  In these dark times we're forced to face our own stance on wickedness and how we react or respond and we notice   how others respond, react or don't.  I notice I'm more curious than judgmental, for the most part,most of the time.  Rich people figuring out how to make a profit on the suffering will always be a reality... the sky is blue and the grass is green. What happened to those people that they operate in the world that way?  What a terrible moment they must have when death comes to get them and they reflect on the life they've led, IF they can reflect at all and maybe that's part of what makes them so good at being sociopaths mining money from the suffering of others....they don't or can't or won't self reflect.  The sky is blue, the grass is green.

If we want nice poeple in civilized socieities we have to be nice people or adjust our expectations.  Set up fair systems and stop the profit from other people's misery and poverty..... if it's possible at all and I'm not saying it is.  Change won't come from punishing and vengeance... it will come from somewhere else, pretty sure, if it happens at all. 

it won't be our generation making these changes, IMO,but I have hope for the generations we leave behind.  It's not going to be vengeance that moves us into the light.

I'm trying to stay level so I'm stepping around your thread on darkness, Hops.

I stopped copy and pasting other people's posts a while ago so they can change or delete them as they process.  I appreciate my posts not being copy and pasted for that reason. 




















Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #793 on: March 09, 2022, 04:34:21 PM »
I value this reflection, Lighter. Thanks for sharing these thoughts -- so many feel very familiar to me, and they're so well articulated.

One triggery (and perhaps but perhaps not dead-end) thing for me I'm more conscious of, is that the main other place I engage online is in a couple of major media comment forums. IF an idea is sound and affects one person, it's not wasted.

The entitlement you mention I believe has a huge impact on the American soul. A small way I stick my nose in is to try where I can to rev up notions of civic sacrifice and community cooperation, to make a difference. Example: from Victory Gardens to giving up silk stockings because they were needed for parachutes, to butter and gasoline ration coupons...our parents' or grandparents' generations understood and respected these limits on their pure freedom to focus on themselves, stoically accepted them and, in doing so, modeled that we belong, all of us, to a civilization (for now) that's larger than ourselves, and knew that to be good people (or at least good citizens) we need to release many of our preferences and cravings and privileges. [In parallel, that's exactly what less materialism and wasteful consumption and environmental sustainability are about. It's all the same thing.]

So, a couple times, I described how a neighborhood might rapidly organize to pool errands, to use less gas. One person could do a weekly grocery run for several households, with each chipping in for the gas. Another...the pharmacy. Another...the hardware store. It wouldn't cover every exigency but it would help, empower people, and boost the whole (nostalgic in too many places) idea of community.

I hear (read) so much panic, or more accurately, complaining, about the idea that we'll feel more pain at the gas pump. Certainly we will. Particularly those of us who drive unnecessarily large vehicles and maintain routinely the one-car one-driver sense of entitlement to feel THAT much freedom and independence to slake nonessential cravings and impulses at the waft of a whim. It's be better to spend their precious fuel volunteering to give rides to low-income folks who have no cars and need to get to work on time. (We have that for elections, but there's no reason the model couldn't be adapted for a gasoline crisis, too.)

I'm glad you vented and like how you knit it all together. Good vs evil or nature vs nurture or evolution vs climate collapse. I hope the human species will keep evolving and use its remarkable ingenuity for defusing disaster and inching (how I wish it could be sprinting) toward a more enlightened age.

Now it does seem as though human psychopathy is coming to the surface like a boil. What happens now may be to lance it, heal it, or succumb to it. I continue to hope anyway, as that's equally eternal.

I don't think our generation is excluded from the chance of saving us, though. I think our generation shoulder-to-shoulder with younger ones, can. If only we have the humility to learn from them and the wisdom to teach when they are ready to receive it. Thinking of Ukraine, there seems to be a totality in how they regard each other. Such bravery and purpose and unity.

They aren't perfect people -- corruption and cruelty and racism are in their history (and in some instances, present) too -- but right now, they're giving a near-perfect example to inspire the best we're capable of, imo.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #794 on: March 09, 2022, 05:45:11 PM »
PS Threads go where they go, and that's fine, but fwiw the intent behind the Dealing With Dark Events was not to re-experience or re-create them, but lift up positive or at least functional ways to deal with them. But if you do choose to take a look, you'll also find that CB has added a whole lot of light.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."