I have access to my N's personal email

[Anonymous]

Hi Guest, I must have posted just after you.

So your statements were made in defense of others, who you imagined might feel "self conscious about replying in future"?

So you were actually trying to be nice and trying to defend those people?

That is a nice thing to do, Guest.
It's just that the way you did it discredited Confused2's words.

Maybe, it would have been better to say something like:

"Some people might feel self-conscious about replying in future, because of what you've said Confused2."

Rather than accusing her of copping out and discrediting her words, deciding upon her feelings and imagining her intention.

I'm not saying this to harm you, Guest.
I've done the same thing myself, at times.

I agree with the Guest who said that acknowledging feelings is not a special talent or skill.  We can all learn.

We can all learn to consider eachother's feelings before lashing out, too, if we choose to.

[Confused2]

Holding on for retirement at 55 years sounds good to me! Maybe a new hobby? I'd love to get certified to scuba dive some day or snorkeling has always interested me, too. What about sailing? So many cool things if you're coastal.

Actually, I live in the mountains which I love. As I mentioned in a previous post, getting married to the man of my dreams was going to be my new adventure. And we have a mutual cause that we were going to work on together. (It is actually my life MISSION and he led me to believe it was also his- but I've read that Narcissists are good are becoming whoever you want them to be- so maybe it was never really his mission at all.)

And at this stage in life (I'm 45) when you decide to throw in and marry someone again, it feels even more risky and vulnerable. To not have it work out is exponentially more painful at this age, for some reason. Not sure why that is. Maybe we're more aware? Maybe it's a crucial life-lesson? Maybe we know the pickins are slim out there? Who knows?

The reason why this has been especially painful for me is that he led me to believe that I was the woman he'd waited many lifetimes for and he was the man I'd waited many lifetimes for. I have been engaged a couple of times but never married. This is kind of an area of vulnerability for me because I've always wanted to get married (but not enought to settle for something that wasn't romantic and passionate and wonderful). I confessed some of these things to him. He was an eloquent, romantic writer and wrote me the most amazing love letters that I think are suitable for publication, they were that good. So, to think I finally had EVERYTHING I'd ever wanted and my dream was finally coming true, only to be devalued and dumped over the course of about 4 days time with lame explanations has been devastating.

I find I have to keep my mind straight about things or I start to have the following thoughts: Maybe he wasn't an N and I am just using this as a defense mechanism for my pain. Maybe there's actually something wrong with me and not him. (He sounds so happy-go-lucky in his emails and he has a few friends that really seem to adore him). But, when I have rational talks with myself (ane my friends, some of whom are therapists), I see clearly that, at minimum, he has strong N traits, and this gender confusion/latent homosexuality, or whatever. Plus, it's not a matter of whether there was something wrong with him or with me; we are both flawed human beings, the difference being that I wanted to stay in the relationship and learn and grow while he opted to run away.

I think I'm rambling here. I still don't have a new screen name picked out but I will definitely let you know what it is.

Best to you,
Confused2

[Anonymous]

Now    you seem to have taken quite the interest in this whole issue yourself--guest. Shoe on the other foot-- whatever could your interest be?  What buttons of defense of yours is all of this pushing?

Never mind--Let's consider it rhetorical. I'm really not even the slightest bit interested in the response as I am in the question.    

You've decided in good will to take up the cross for the intial poster? To be so very nice & defend this person?  Well--I'll return your compliment to me. That was very nice of you, guest.

I think I have some idea as to who I'm interacting with. It could be a choice out of several actually & I'm sure we've interacted before.

Alas-- but I'm not engaging anymore for no other reason than it is a waste of time.

Out of respect--I do draw a distinction between you and the other guest {or persona}.

(Taunts edited out--Richard Grossman)

[Anonymous]

Deleted:  Contentless taunt

Richard Grossman

[Confused2]

It's bad enough to know that my ex-N is already in a committed relationship with another woman. It would be worse to discover the situation you experienced with your ex-N.

Bludie,

Actually, I think I would feel worse if my ex-N was with another woman. Because he is NOT with another woman, and not even looking for a woman, rather looking for a transgendered MAN, it makes the whole thing much less personal.

Confused2

[Anonymous]

The reason why this has been especially painful for me is that he led me to believe that I was the woman he'd waited many lifetimes for and he was the man I'd waited many lifetimes for. I have been engaged a couple of times but never married. This is kind of an area of vulnerability for me because I've always wanted to get married (but not enought to settle for something that wasn't romantic and passionate and wonderful). I confessed some of these things to him. He was an eloquent, romantic writer and wrote me the most amazing love letters that I think are suitable for publication, they were that good. So, to think I finally had EVERYTHING I'd ever wanted and my dream was finally coming true, only to be devalued and dumped over the course of about 4 days time with lame explanations has been devastating.

Confused2,

Have you ever heard of Steven Carter? He wrote a classic book called "Men Who Can't Love." This is a very powerful book. I think your fiance is described in this book  (not the TG part but his intense romancing followed by lame distancing and abandonment). There is also a website where Steven Carter answers questions from people:

 http://www.power-surge.com/cgi-bin/ask_experts/archive.cgi?relationships

bunny

[Anonymous]

I'm just wondering too. Do we really have to split paths because we disagree?

It MEANS you and that person disagree dosey dove.

[bludie]

Confused2,

I find I have to keep my mind straight about things or I start to have the following thoughts: Maybe he wasn't an N and I am just using this as a defense mechanism for my pain. Maybe there's actually something wrong with me and not him.

Boy, I've been there recently, too. My pendulum swings from initial shock and awe and numbness -- to anger -- then onto justifying my part in things -- then onto diagnosing and sometimes even villifying him. My intellect tells me that forgiveness is the key to my peace and serenity. But I'm not there yet. Here's a story that I found interesting. Perhaps you will, too:

A carrot, an egg and a cup of coffee...
A young woman went to her mother and told her about her life and how things were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling.

It seemed as one problem was solved, a new one arose.   Her mother took her to the kitchen. She filled three pots with water and placed each on a high fire. Soon the pots came to boil. In the first she placed carrots, in the second she placed eggs, and in the last she placed ground coffee beans. She let them sit and boil, without saying a word.

In about twenty minutes she turned off the burners. She fished the carrots out and placed them in a bowl. She pulled the eggs out and placed them in a bowl. Then she ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl.

Turning to her daughter, she asked, "Tell me, what do you see?"

"Carrots, eggs, and coffee," she replied.

Her mother brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots. She did and noted that they were soft. The mother then asked the daughter to take an egg and break it.  After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard boiled egg.  Finally, the mother asked the daughter to sip the coffee. The daughter smiled as she tasted its rich aroma. The daughter then asked, "What does it mean, mother?"

Her mother explained that each of these objects had faced the same adversity ... boiling water.   Each reacted differently. The carrot went in strong, hard, and unrelenting. However, after being subjected to the boiling water, it softened and became weak. The egg had been fragile.  Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior, but after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened. The ground coffee beans were unique, however.  After they were in the boiling water, they had changed the water.

"Which are you?" she asked her daughter.

"When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?"

Think of this: Which am I? Am I the carrot that seems strong, but with pain and adversity do I wilt and become soft and lose my strength?

Am I the egg that starts with a malleable heart, but changes with the heat? Did I have a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a financial hardship or some other trial, have I become hardened and stiff?  Does my shell look the same, but on the inside am I bitter and tough with a stiff spirit and hardened heart?

Or am I like the coffee bean? The bean actually changes the hot water, the very circumstance that brings the pain. When the water gets hot, it releases the fragrance and flavor. If you are like the bean, when things are at their worst, you get better and change the situation around you. When the hour is the darkest and trials are their greatest, do you elevate yourself to another level?

How do you handle adversity? Are you a carrot, an egg or a coffee bean?

May you have enough happiness to make you sweet, enough trials to make you strong, enough sorrow to keep you human and enough hope to make you happy.

Lately I've felt eggy but I'm searching and striving to become the coffee. I think we all are in our own ways.

[bludie]

bunny,

Just perused the site. Will look into it more in-depth. Very cool -- thank you!

[confused2]

Bunny, I read Men Who Can't Love and underlined just about half the book because it so described what happened to me. My only problem with the book is that he describes the behavior of these various men but doesn't link it with Narcissism or anything else for that matter. He mentions it very very briefly. No matter. The behavior described my ex very well. I have recently thought about the book again and am about to pull it off my shelf for another reading. And thank you for the web link. I will take a look.

Bludie, great story. Thanks. Right now I feel like the carrot. My self esteem was really solid when I met him. In fact he used to say that one thing he loved about me was that I was a happy person and wasn't looking to him to make me happy. After this unfortunate episode, I've felt like I've had my spirit crushed. I put this in the past tense because I am much better than I was all summer when I cried frequently. I phase in and out of so many different feelings. Today, for example, I am totally disgusted by him and am thinking I am so well rid of this selfish, immature, gender-confused, flat broke guy (makes a huge amount of money but has poor impulse control with spending). Yesterday when I wrote my last post, I was afraid that he's fine (based on the fact that he's moved on so easily while I stay so stuck, and based on the fact that some people seem to love him a lot) and I'm the one that's not worth being with. Today and a couple of days ago, I felt bored reading his email and felt like I'm going to give it up soon without even trying. I don't think I'll ever become the egg. I am not that self protective. Maybe I'll become the coffee, but only by accident and only in retrospect. Like maybe one day I'll realize that I'm completely over this and I've somehow been transformed in a positive way.

I am getting a lot from these discussions. Thanks to all.

Confused2

[Anonymous]

Steven Carter now links these men with narcissism.

bunny

[Anonymous]

My self esteem was really solid when I met him. In fact he used to say that one thing he loved about me was that I was a happy person and wasn't looking to him to make me happy. After this unfortunate episode, I've felt like I've had my spirit crushed. I put this in the past tense because I am much better than I was all summer when I cried frequently. I phase in and out of so many different feelings.

The operant word is roller coaster, I think! I wouldn't go so far as to say my self esteem has ever been really solid. I think my childhood may have something to do with that (a whole other story). But when I met my ex-N, I had a life filled with friends, activities and solid career goals/achievements. My relationship with my daughter was in tact and I, at the very least, had significant self respect. I look at my life now and see only pieces or portions of my former life; a vagary.

I know what you mean, confused2, about feeling like your spirit has been crushed. Normally I have tried to be fairly Towanda-like about things: if there was a problem, it could be solved. If there was a gap or something lacking in my life, it could be examined and resolved. In the aftermath with my ex-N, and now knowing he's in a full-blown relationship within a couple of months after our breakup, my self esteem has been blown to smithereens. I'd like to think I am stronger than that but have to admit to taking quite an emotional beating on this one.

But thank goodness for the self-help venues, friends, therapy, medication, a renewed sense of spirituality and boards such as this one. It all helps. I just hope to learn enough from my lesson so that I will never repeat it again.

Best,

bludie

[Anonymous]

Bludie,

he's in a full-blown relationship within a couple of months

on the surface maybe but unlikely to very deep or meaningful?

[confused2]

knowing he's in a full-blown relationship within a couple of months after our breakup, my self esteem has been blown to smithereens. I'd like to think I am stronger than that but have to admit to taking quite an emotional beating on this one.

Bludie,

I think I would feel much as you feel if my ex-N had gone on and jumped into another relationship after me. I would have felt much more rejected, more than I do now since my ex-N has gone on to a completely different path. He is NOT looking for another woman but for transgendered men who dress as women. It's much easier to not take personally. Too bad you don't have access to inside information about your ex's relationship because you would likely see him treating her the way he treated you and you would feel much better about no longer being with him. That was the blessing of having had access to my ex's email, which I maintain was a gift from God in that I got to see him for who he is.

Bunny,

That is good to hear that Stephen Carter now links Men Who Can't Love to NPD! I can't wait to peruse his site.

The only thing that bugs me a little bit about how much energy I'm putting into healing is the fact that my ex hasn't even given me a second thought, other than to lie about me. And here I am, 7 months later, still thinking about him every single day without fail. From the outside, it looks like he's the healthy one, having such a well-developed ability to move on. But his ex-wife said that was one of his hallmark characteristics: just moving on to the next big thing with no looking back. I am but a discarded empty milk carton or used tissue (metaphors I think I read on this discussion board that I think are so fitting).

I am off work today, it is a beautiful day and I am going to go outside and fully enjoy it! I'm feeling about as good as I've felt since the break up. Maybe it's just a phase or maybe I have turned a corner.

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Confused2

[Anonymous]

Now  you seem to have taken quite the interest in this whole issue yourself--guest. Shoe on the other foot-- whatever could your interest be? What buttons of defense of yours is all of this pushing?

I would answer your questions except next you say:

Never mind--Let's consider it rhetorical. I'm really not even the slightest bit interested in the response as I am in the question.

See....this is a main difference between us.  I was truly interested in your answers and responses.  I reflected on your opinion and stated mine.  I was even interested in your ideas about mine, after possibly your reflecting on it, and that's why I commented on the possibility of not parting ways, just because we disagree.  I was interested in hearing more of your opinion, even if I disagree with it.  Thanks anyway though because I did reflect on your questions, anyway, regardless of your not being the slightest bit interested in my answers/responses.

You've decided in good will to take up the cross for the intial poster? To be so very nice & defend this person? Well--I'll return your compliment to me. That was very nice of you, guest.

Here again....my intentions are being stated by you.  You've decided that this was my intention?  How do you do that?  My compliment to you was sincere.

I think I have some idea as to who I'm interacting with.  It could be a choice out of several actually & I'm sure we've interacted before.

Could be.  Are you basing this interaction on your ideas about "who" you're interacting with, rather than.. about what?
For me....it's what we're talking about that matters.  We're both guests for whatever reasons.  

Alas-- but I'm not engaging anymore for no other reason than it is a waste of time.

That's ok.  Maybe you won't bother reading this response.  That's ok too.  That's up to you isn't it?  I don't think it was a waste of my time.

Out of respect--I do draw a distinction between you and the other guest

(Taunts edited out--Richard Grossman)

I just read your post a few minutes ago so I didn't see the taunts that were edited out.  Thankyou Dr. G for bothering to do that.