The wife of Mywifeand I. So I guess I’m Myhusbandand I
Thank you all for your responses to my husband’s posts. Thank you for your sympathy, advice, criticism, questions and support. I think right now we need the sympathy and support, but it’s also good to be balanced with another reaction and viewpoint.
We have been very hesitant to open up our status with our grown daughters to anyone for fear of being blamed. It seems that everyone is ready to give you the benefit of the doubt if it is your N parent or N x spouse that you are having trouble with, but if it is a child, woe unto you, it is certainly your fault as you have obvously done something terriable to them. You’ve been a terriable parent. No one can believe it in a child that has become an adult. Just remember that every N has parents. Not all these parents created these N’s. Some yes, but not all. I would certainly be careful about making assumptions before knowing all the information. As a school teacher and longstanding and very verbal advocate for abused children, I, and my husband have scrutinized our every motive, action and theory in the raising of our children. We certainly were not perfect parents, didn’t have all the answers, were very young and both came from functional but dysfunctional families. We both had N mothers. I was the target of my mother and my husband’s brother was his mother’s target. My brother-in-law and I were pretty much treated the same. There was a favored child who could do no wrong and we could do no right. We were blamed for everything, punished, then criticized because we had a bad attitude, were rebellious and unforgiving.
Because of my desire not to do this to my children, to encourage them, to give them self esteem, to love them unconditionally and never to live under the cloud of repression and fear that I did, I’m afraid, in looking back, that because I was so accustomed to taking the blame outwardly and inwardly for mine and everyone else’s misbehavior, that I stomped myself down as always guilty and the girls as perfect. Yes, as every mother, I had my moments of loosing it, apologizing and blaming myself and vowing to be a better mother. They were few and far between but they were there.
If there was any blame, shame or guilt to be had, I took it. I believe that is what my husband was referring to in his post. Children should accept responsibility for their wrongs and make them right even if they temporarily feel guilt and shame. To not allow this, we believe, in looking back, that we created people who could do no wrong in their own eyes, were entitled, and grandouse. So, yes, if we are guilty, this is the place where the mistake happened. However, I believe that somewhere along the way the girls themselves made some choices that colored their personalities. We did not teach them to lie for their own gain, manipulate others for sympathy, nor to treat others judgmentally or cruelly. We tried to do quiet the opposite.
In searching our own hearts, studying and listening, we have a thought. It may not be true in all situations, but in these there seems to be a common thread.
We have a friend that my husband works with who has a daughter the same age as ours that has done the same thing to her parents. She did it on the birth of her first child as our daughter did. She has accused her parents of exactly the same thing, has followed the same pattern to a T and has disappeared somewhere with the grandchild where the parents cannot find them just like ours has.
The similarities are, the mother was an abused child and was determined not to do the same thing to her daughter but to give her a storybook childhood like we were. Her goal in life was to be a wonderful mother, as was mine.
She, like as we, raised her child to love and serve God, but not in the same religion that we were. Quiet the opposite, but still firm in rights and wrongs. She didn't, as we didn't, cram religion or God down their throats. Some people may have a problem with teaching rights and wrongs. I believe and practiced teaching this in a loving and balanced way. Maybe we could have given them more freedom to make their own mistakes and suffer the consequences as a lesson instead of always being saved from pain and sorrow. I wish God gave children to parents with the mind and experience of 50 year olds and the bodies and energy of 20 year olds instead of the opposite. Hindsight is certainly better than foresight!
Now, this one. Scott Peterson’s mother had an extremely difficult and dysfunctional childhood. Orphanages, foster homes, had to have some of her children adopted out, the works. She, like my above friend and I was determined to do it right with Scott. To be the perfect mother and to give him a wonderful and happy childhood.
So, we have four children here, who to the best of our ability to figure out, have turned out N’s. Three mothers came from abusive childhoods and were determined not to pass it on to another generation. None of these four children from these abused mothers were abused or mistreated. In our efforts maybe we did not know what normal was. Maybe we didn’t recognize misbehavior for what it was and have the wisdom to know what to do.
I wonder if anyone out there can relate to this thought. Where did your N’s come from? Were their parents abusive or were they abused themselves? I would be curious to find out if generational abuse exposes itself in this way also? If it does, it seems it goes around and around and around. How does it ever stop? I thought I was stopping it. Now, my daughter seems to be my mother in her actions with the same lies, targeting, conniving and manipulation.
I know this is a long post, but please bear with me while I clarify some issues my husband’s post brought up.
The religion could have possibly paid a part as one writer suggested. However, we personally never used religion or God as anything but love. The religion was strict and legalistic and all they know. They are still in it. My husband and I have since seen the light and three years ago left for a more mainstream belief. We taught the girls what we were seeing in the Bible that was different from the religion, and at one time, they understood and were with us 100% in our change. We were sure with the understanding they had that they would eventually come along. But we were too late. In the meantime, they married men in this religion and now highly criticize our change. Our change and their exposing N behavior happened at the same time. So, yes, I do think religion had some part to play in this tragedy but not God. They both denied that this was the problem when asked, but somehow I wonder…..
A brief history:
Until 2 ½ years ago, our family was exceptionally close. We had fun together and it seemed to us a normal and healthy relationship. They were proud of us and our accomplishments as we were them. Everyone was supportive. However, there were times that our oldest daughter had, what I call hot and cold moods. She had always had them. She would be warm then cold emotionally to everyone in her life. We always just patiently waited until she blew warm again. At age 15 the moods got worse. She had a spell in her wedding preparations that almost killed me. She wanted me to fly to where she was attending college and help her with the dress and plans. I did. Upon arriving, she would tell me what she wanted me to do. When I did it she would then proceed to throw it in the garbage. She wanted me to alter her dress, then upon arriving wouldn’t let me touch it. I flew back home a wreck but managed to hold my composure through the wedding. She warmed back up after the wedding and we had no more moods until about 5 years later when…
A job change necessitated my husband and I moving. Our oldest lived in another state. She begged us to move in with her until we found jobs and housing. She was thrilled. No problems besides the fact that I was going through menopause, had fibromylgia and was traumatized from the circumstances surrounding the move. I was a little weepy, depressed and VERY HOT. She was very supportive and helpful. In six weeks we were out and on our feet. She soon became pregnant with her first child. She was 28. Things couldn’t have been better during the PG. She included us and we were all ecstatic. She asked me to homemake her maternity clothes. I made 12 outfits. She didn’t feel like cooking and they asked me to bring over their meals. I did. Toward the end of the PG, her husband became concerned that she and I were too close. She began to tell people that she loved me too much. So, she went, at her husband’s advice, to a psychiatrist or something. I was supportive and understanding and listened to her tell all about her visits.
Then a change began to occur. She began to say and do hurtful things. For instance she told me over the phone that “from now on she was going to choose her mother in law to be her mother and do things with her instead of me because I had dreams and expectations and her MIL did not. She did not want to be bothered with my expectations.” This floored me! I lost my breath and tears gushed. I knew from past experience with her cold spells not to protest or show hurt because it always made her worse. All I could manage was a breathy “ I think I have to go now. I’ll talk to you later. Goodbye.” I then hung up. She later accused me of hanging up on her. She also threw away all the clothes I had made her, and threw away all the food.
She continued to do cruel things like this. Then act as though nothing had occurred. We continued to try to be loving and supportive, taking only what she spasmodically offered. Demanding nothing. I felt like a puppy dog accepting crumbs from the master’s table.
At the birth of the baby, she accused me of being histrionic in the waiting area and worrying more about her than she was worried about the baby who had a breathing problem and was in ICU. Where did she get that? That just didn’t happen. It started to appear as though I was getting accused of how she imagined I would react to things and punished for them before I even did them. She seemed to get pleasure in her accusations and would hear no truth. She let us have very, very little to do with the baby. Her husband kept telling us that this was HIS baby. He instructed who, and how and how long we could hold it. We bought expensive gifts, visited and everything that was allowed. I have never taken care of this baby, only held it in their presence for brief periods of time.
When this baby was 18 months old, she gave birth to another. We had only had contact with her a few times. They had moved to another city 1 hr. away. They did not tell us of the birth of this child. My husband called them to inform them that his mother was critically ill. They happened to be at the hospital and had given birth the day before. They said they were accepting visitors the following weekend and we could visit then. We called to let them know of our visit on the acceptable day and were told they were going to the deer hunting club and wouldn’t be at home. Yea, Sure, she had just given birth 1 week ago and had another 18 mo. old and was going hunting! Several weeks later we tried to visit unannounced so they wouldn’t conveniently be gone and they had stopped answering the phone. When we knocked on the door of their apartment, someone else lived there. We found their car and knocked on doors until we found them. We got to see the baby for the first time for about 45 minutes.
About 1 month later after not being able to reach them, we visited unannounced again. She answered the door with a frightful scowl and said, Don’t you people have a phone.? She wouldn’t let us in her house. Told us to wait 30 minutes outside. After 30 minutes we knocked again. She said we still couldn’t come in because she was feeding the baby. We got to see the baby’s feet then. I asked if we could please come in and watch her feed him. She said No. I asked why. She said because I said so and closed the door. In the meantime she called her husband from work. He went into the house. She came outside 20 minutes later. She insisted we go for a walk to the pool. There she proceeded to tell us we had never loved our children or anyone else, that we were codependent which is why we had pretended to help so many people so we would look good to others. That I was histrionic, bipolar, had and ugly frown on my face all the time and had a mean and hateful voice. This among many, many other things. I proceeded to tell her that we did really love people and our children. She then accused me of talking for 30 minutes and not letting her talk. Her father said we have let you talk. She got up and said she was leaving because we wouldn’t shut up and let her talk. I said Ok Talk but I do love you. As she left she said that she would call us if she wanted to see us again. I had this horrible feeling that I would never see or hear from her again and I had this strong urge for my last words that she would hear in her ears was that I loved her. She then threatened to call the police. So I repeated that I loved her as she ran all the way home to her apt. with me calling louder the further she got that I loved her. We left and attended a church service in that city where I proceeded to cry with the most broken heart imaginable. I hardly remember where I was. Without God helping my husband and I, we couldn’t have survived this. We have heard from a mutual aquaintance that she has moved again and changed her phone number. No one knows where.
This is just a little. She also has lied to our daughter that is 2 years younger than she. She controls her and uses her like a bow and arrow to hurt us with. I don’t know what she has told her. We had no problems with that daughter at all until the oldest started pulling her N. behavior. I have my doubts that this daughter is truly N. She is the weapon and we are the target. That is another whole story and this post is already too long. I’m sorry but to get the picture correct you needed to know the story.
We are managing to survive. I work at a Nutrition Supplement store. There are some supplements that we have taken to take some of the effect of the stress off our bodies so we wouldn’t die of a broken heart. Without them and God constantly helping us and bearing our grief we wouldn’t have made it. The future looks bleak as far as the girls are concerned but I’m still in love with my husband of 31 years and he is with me. So we will build on that and go from here.
We didn't understand any of this behavior at the time of it's occurance. We have since learned of Narcississic Personality Disorder. Our daughter has had classic symptoms right down the line. She has followed a well walked path. If some of you do not understand all this entails there is some very good web sights and books that we ordered and have studied extensively. We are not mad at our daughters and would take them back in a minute. We are sad and hurting and have tried everything imaginable for the past two years to regain our family. We have talked. Let them talk. Begged them to write down every complaint they had about us. Offered to go to counceling with them. We have appoligized for everything
we can think to apoligize for. We have told them we take responsibility for every mistake we made, our problems. We have asked forgiveness and everything we could think of. No, we haven't lost our children because we were too stuborn or proud or because we won't accept them as they are. We do and always have. There is something else going on here.
Maybe Portia hit the nail on the head in her reply to my husband's post.
Quote
I don’t think you remain voiceless, except to your daughters’ ears. We hear you.
Your daughters, if they are NPD, are sick. I think severe narcissism may result from meeting the child’s every need. The child never learns to empathise. ‘Perfect’ parenting would produce children who think the world is wonderful and that it all exists only to please them, to meet their needs. If children are never discouraged, are always given what they demand, they don’t learn that they could suffer in the way that others suffer. They have no need for empathy unless they see the possibility that life might not always go their way. And if we don’t use and develop the empathy bits in our brains, we lose them. Completely it seems.
Thank you Portia for your insight and sharing your knowledge on the subject of N's.
We want to thank everyone for your input.
MyhusbandandI
