Narcissism Part II

[Anonymous]

Luego, GFN and Hello All:  

It is indeed sad to recognize you have spent years spinning your wheels.  However we, depending on your health, have a long time to live and can create something different.  Luego it was a slow realization on my part no matter how much I accomodated my husband's interests, trying to find solutions that would accomodate him, that was going to change my or my son's circumstances.  Sadness indeed overtook me, but I had to put that aside because my child's quality of life depended  upon it.  It is ok to be sad, it is ok to grieve, there is no time table for any of us to get through the various stages of grief.  You must, just as I did, begin to look at yourself as someone as a resource  by virtrue of your experience.  I have to admit I would like to have an life instruction book, and I must interject here, my faith in God helped to get me through the very lowest .  Our experiences tell us what our past has been and we can use that to shape our future.  I have run across an adage by someone one that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results.  Relationships with N's fall into this catagory.

To GFN:  I agree that a lot of people are trapped.  I think my own mother fell into that catagory.  She had no education, no resources, her own dysfunctional family......essentially no where to go.  My father used all these things against her.  On the times I came home, after being married, I tried to encourage her to seek help, to live with her sisters, anything to get her out of the emotional abuse.  However, she had lived in that situation some 40 odd years.  Looking back, my expectations far exceeded her abilities to do anything about her situation.  I even offered for her to move out of town, to live with me.  She had been so brow beaten.......it was to the point I felt she was suffering from the "Stockholm syndrome".  Identifying with her tormenter to such an extent that her ego no longer existed.  She was totally emeshed into the N way of life.  

As children, I remember how she tried to protect us from the emotional abuse.  We were in constant fear of making the wrong remark, not keeping the house appropriately, not kow towing to his relatives......the list goes on and on.  I can only say the hyper-criticalness left its mark.  Nothing was ever good enough for him, nothing.  Mother tried and she took the brunt of  it all.  I can remember just as a flash back......coming home from middle school........walking down the sidewalk toward our house.  There was an amblance parked down the street......in my line of sight I thought it was parked outside my house.  I ran the entire way home thinking that something horrible had happened to my mother.....that my father had finally done it.  It did not occur to me that it JUST might be parked out someone else's house.  Such was the case.  It sort of gives  you a window on the  mindset  of how I viewed my father and his abuse toward my mother.  Totally terrorizing.  She was trapped and I really was a parent to her, because she had no internal resources on which to draw.  I do not blame her for not leaving........it was the 50's, there was no place to go.  Many women in that time just faded away.  You are probably doing the best  you can in your circumstance.  Just reach out to as many resources as possible to sustain  you and your children. I am in no way critical of how or what you are doing.  We all do the things we need to do to survive.  Just protect your children as much as  you are able to do.   Patz

[Kaz]

Hi T,

"I will grant that having learned about the disorder - and especially the contiinuum parts - have really helped me understand it academically. But it really was just about truly hearing myself, in the end. It was my own voice and experiences, and not the (potential) disorder that REALLY instructed me. I think if I had been in what I formerly thought of as a "healthy" place between relationships, I might have fallen for it."

Absolutely agree with you on this one. When I separated from my H I didn't know about narcissism, I was listening to myself. As I said, finding out that IT had a name helped me to process what had happened and make some sort of sense out of it. And most importantly, it strengthened my resolve to stay away from him because I had learned that he would never change. This single fact is what kept me with him for far longer than I should have, I thought that he/our marriage would 'improve'. Can't say for certain, but had I known about the tenaciousness of his narcissism while I was still with him, I maybe would have given up earlier.
 
Great story about the lawyer; it gives me hope that I'll be able to weed them out with ease as I get back into the world. (I've been a bit of a recluse the last few years!).

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone:

Patz wrote to Luego:  

You must, just as I did, begin to look at yourself as someone as a resource by virtrue of your experience.

That is such helpful advice.  Ofcourse I can pay attention to it too.  I have experiences and by virtue of them, I must look at myself as someone who is a resource.  In other words, I must depend on myself (and that is because no one else is going to protect me from the N's of the world, or from my whatever I do to allow some people to hurt me, (or from, as T said, whatever it is that attracks me to the wrong people???).  So, I must look out for myself and I must do so by resourcing information from my experiences (plus whatever I can learn that is helpful and store my resourse bank-heehee).

To GFN: I agree that a lot of people are trapped. I think my own mother fell into that catagory....Identifying with her tormenter to such an extent that her ego no longer existed.

So when this happens, the abused person, we might say, is no longer "able" to stop the abuse, and may not "recognize" the abuse as abuse (because they are so enmeshed with their abuser), right?

And.......children who grow up in such homes are left with the effects of it all.
Once I came to this realization.....the fact that my parent was trapped, it was much easier to forgive.  We want to think that there is always a way out, that there is always something else that could be done, but sometimes, that is just not the case.  The situation deteriorates to this point and it is too late for some who have tolerated abuse for too long.

I can remember just as a flash back......coming home from middle school........walking down the sidewalk toward our house. There was an amblance parked down the street......in my line of sight I thought it was parked outside my house. I ran the entire way home thinking that something horrible had happened to my mother.....that my father had finally done it.

I had an experience much like yours.  I remember how much panic I felt and I had visions of the terrible scene I was about to find.  I don't remember how old I was but I know I was a fairly small child.   And later, even as an adult, I moved about 40 miles away, and if I heard on the nightly news that there had been a murder-suicide in the place my parents lived, I would feel a bit of the same panic, until I saw the house on TV, and was sure it wasn't their house.

I do not blame her for not leaving........it was the 50's, there was no place to go. Many women in that time just faded away

I don't either.  Abuse wasn't even grounds for divorce here until 1969.  I blame our "system" a lot more than my mother.  Today is much better.  There are shelters and people who will do their best to help.  My hope is that women don't stay long enough to become so stuck.  But the reality is probably not the case.  There are still murder-suicides on TV and women being murdered, after trying to leave, or while trying to leave.   Leaving is a choice that only the abused person can make.

You are probably doing the best you can in your circumstance. Just reach out to as many resources as possible to sustain you and your children. I am in no way critical of how or what you are doing. We all do the things we need to do to survive. Just protect your children as much as you are able to do.

Thankyou for your kind words Patz.  I am doing that and I'm working on me so I can be the best I can be for them (and for me).

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN:

If it is anything I have learned over the years, nothing is as it seems.  We see my instances of murders, suicides etc.  where abuse is involved and say "Well, why didn't he/she leave".  My mother had lived with my N father for such a long time, it did not occur to her there was a different way of living and thinking.  It is only when you become exposed to different people, how they interact,  that the questions start coming.  As in:  Well you know if I had done this with my N......this would have been the result.......and it did not happen with these people.........and it becomes a puzzle..........you realize that there is kindness, gentleness, consideration in other relationships.  You want this for yourself and the contrast you experience becomes extreme.  It is only then that you  "awaken" to what your current experience is.  Sadly my mother began to realize this only in her declining years.  It was so sad to see.

GFN you can do those small things to protect your emotional mind and well being for yourself and your children.  I found it useful to say to myself "ok, what positive, concrete things can I do for myself today for myself and child." If you think globally it is to overwheming.  Just one constructive thing every day.  It could be a constructive thought, doing something for someone else, whatever.  These are thing the N has no control over.   Pretty soon you realize that you are slowly eating away at the N  elephant in the room.........and it will be gone.  Patz

[mirror2]

I like the image of slowing working away at the elephant in the room, and eventually getting to a place where the elephant is gone and the narcissism ceases to be a controlling factor in your life - it's so much easier to deal with at the periphery.  I work every day at trying to put the kids' N dad into perspective.  I think in the course of several years he has gone from being the central focus of our lives to just being important in their lives, but someone who doesn't have much influence on their day-to-day activities.  Instead their daily influences are a broad range of more positive people along with a few difficult ones - much healthier than the obessive quality Ns have.  But I can't try to pretend he doesn't play a role, even in his narcissistic state, but I love to discover some of his traits in my kids absent the N -- the artistic talent absent the perfectionism, the mechanical adeptness minus the temper, and the physical affection without the manipulation.

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

T wrote:  

My distorted view of myself (Jayne, perhaps) leads me to have distorted views of others.

How do you know your view is distorted?  Do others disagree with your view?  Does that make their view correct?

I'm trying to learn to protect myself not by scanning others, but really scanning me in my responses to to others.

That sounds like a good idea, as long as you're not obsessed about it.  I think there is a grey area.  I mean that we respond to others depending on many factors.  Sometimes it's to do with our stuff and sometimes it's to do with their stuff.  Sometimes it's us having a not so great day and thinking it's their stuff and sometimes it's them having a not so great day and giving us the impression they have stuff that usually isn't a big deal.
On the whole, scanning is good, as long as it isn't cemented in stone too quickly, imo.

If something feels really great, I try to ask me WHY...and to require myself to pinpoint exactly what feels good. If something feels bad, I ask the same.

I can see the advantage to doing this, in order to become self aware.  I guess it's that grey area again that's coming to my mind.....when something just feels really great and there is no reason.....or times when one is unable to pinpoint exactly what feels good or bad because there are no specifics.....it's just a feeling, or an instinct.

Patz wrote:  

I found it useful to say to myself "ok, what positive, concrete things can I do for myself today for myself and child."

Thanks Patz.  I do that too but it can't be too often, can it?  Every day is another good goal.

Kaz wrote:  

But it really was just about truly hearing myself, in the end. It was my own voice and experiences, and not the (potential) disorder that REALLY instructed me.

Me too.  I didn't learn about N until most damage was done.  I sometimes wonder if I had of known, would I have been able to do anything to change the way things went?  I have to be careful making such predictions because there is no way to know that.

Mirror2:  

I like the image of slowing working away at the elephant in the room, and eventually getting to a place where the elephant is gone and the narcissism ceases to be a controlling factor in your life.

I like it too.  A little at a time.  Takes patience and determination but it is doable.

GFN

[Anonymous]

Hi All:

Sorry so silent; been suddenly busy with pressing projects (lots of my clients never seem to know they need something until the last minute! Sheesh!). Have read all your additions from the last few days and feel like I really get a lot out of this thread and all your comments and stories -and just the general sharing.

Unfortunately, I'm still a little buried, but I wanted to share something:

I know it's been daunting for some of you to hear me stay relentlessly on-topic re: I Voice and all that. BUT - it has concretely paid off to keep my thinking on track and hone my ideas about it all. Some real clarity is being brought about lately.

This weekend, my husband and I had some fairly major breakthroughs about subtext and hidden meaning in our response patterns to each other. Of course, our problems are not solved, but we do understand things a bit better, which will give us the tools to more effectively monitor ourselves and each other for the "real" issues.

One that's been particularly tough for me (and him, too, in another way), is his way of shutting me out when I am down or distressed - in even a run-of-the-mill-way (too much to do, things piling up, me making mistakes and feeling overwhelmed - ordinary in a busy, changing life). If I even look a little down around the mouth, it can provoke reactions in him from simple dismissiveness to rage. Of course, this makes me more down, and he sometimes tends to  "kick" all the more hard the more down I become. I then become even more depressed, and so on. It's very self-perpetuating, and ultimately the original issue (my feeling a little down and needing some support) gets lost in the arguments and heartache about the dynamic and is never addressed. The whole process takes a couple of months to go from mildly frustraing to horribly painful, and it repeats whenever I start to wear thin.

This apparent lack of empathy is one thing that has kept me somewhat fixated on the NPD aspects, although at other times, about other things, he can be very supportive and loving. Difficult to understand.

Sometimes, when he's in this hostile, bullying sort of mode, I find myself thinking that he doesn't know me at all - he talks to me and about me as if we have never met, saying things that are contrary to who I know I am. This is major source of conflict for us and depression/anxiety for me, especially because it is so at odds with much of his other behavior, priming me to withdraw and "act-in", as I learned to do as a child.

After all this ruminative "self-training", it finally hit:

He really isn't talking to me, nor raging at me, nor talking about me at all. I'm not even really part of the equation, not as a discrete individual.

He's talking, raging, screaming and aiming bullets at his Mother.

His mother became depressed when he was a kid, to the extent that he lacked food (once had only onions for an entire week), did not go to  school, lived in a cabin in Maine (Honorary Canada, for you Europeans) in winter with no heat, no electricity, no running water.  In addition, she was not emotionally available to help him work through his grief over his parent's divorce, nor would she allow him to see their father (who just gave up and didn't really try all that hard), refused child support, did not get welfare or food stamps, did not work - did not try. She gave clear signals to my husband that she could not be approached about his fears or complaints, either. Long, sad, story.

We talked about this extensively over the weekend, even discussing whether he might be re-creating the scenario (tearing down my defenses against depression, so I could be HER) so he can finally express his anger and hurt that she would allow her depression to interfere with his ability to even EAT, let alone feel like a valued human being and a loved child.

He talked about how he has always felt that I was powerful and could do anything I set my mind to (usually true under good conditions, then I am bull-by-the-horns pragmatic), and that he alwyas has felt safe with that as his mindset, and how if I show cracks in my armor he thinks he does re-visit that emotional place of fear and helplessness that was his childhood.

I, too, was able to look at the way that I withdraw and stop being fully competent and involved in my life when I feel that my needs and feelings are being overlooked and dismissed, the way I'm really responding to my mother's rages and insults and abuse, how I cannot stand for an angry adult to be within 6 feet of me or I'm at risk of shrinking out of the picture altogether, sinking into a pit of self-hatred so deep I can't see light, so great is my fear of being physically hurt (he has never done this) and emotionally shredded. Basically, this is me "beating (them) to the punch" - kicking myself into a small ball FIRST, a way of maintaining my own control over the situation (obviously flawed, but functional for the survival of the child that I was).

In a sense, we are better equipped to help each other than anyone else - but equally, if we are not careful, we can inadvertently push buttons all over town - never really knowing that's what we're doing until we're in crisis mode and we're forced to examine it . I feel fortunate that he can examine these things with me from time to time. While not ideal to have to wait until it's out of control, at least the discussion eventually happens and things "right" themselves for a time, until it's time to uncover the next kernel of truth.

It was a very emotional weekend for us in this way. I'm a little drained and taken aback by the intensity of it all, but I'm feeling much more hopeful - and a bit more like living my life with some enthusiasm and concern (lacking lately).

Thanks all for listening.

T

(Thank you Bunny).

[Anonymous]

He really isn't talking to me, nor raging at me, nor talking about me at all. I'm not even really part of the equation, not as a discrete individual.

He's talking, raging, screaming and aiming bullets at his Mother.

That's what our therapist told me. She also advised me not to discuss it with him. Instead I should call her. In our case it was better not to talk about "The Mother." In your situation it seems to have worked.

I once brought her a photograph of two Indian papooses in their cradles (or whatever you call them) crying vigorously. Our therapist said that was my husband and I, who were very scared/angry and didn't have parents to calm us down.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Again, I feel fortunate. Lucky, because we both had some experience with therapy before we ever met, which means we're more open to discussion in calm times.

I read somewhere a long time ago that when couples fight, there are at minimum 6 people in the room - the couple and their four parents. Add another in the case of infidelity. In our cases, we can even add the grandparents, since we know how our parents were affected by them - and to a certain extent, great-grandparents (I know some incredible stories about my maternal Grandmothers). That makes a Grand Total of 31: Talk about a crowded house! Of course it's difficult to hear or be heard over the general cacophany...

I liked the thought at the time, but I am appreciating it in action more directly now, as we slowly uncover some of these destructive patterns and emotional habits.

Did your therapist offer a reason to pussy-foot around "Mother"?

Last night, I noticed (and commented positively) that my husband has taken much of our weekend conversations to heart and is behaving very differently in the natural and predictable conflicts with our daughter (11 this month, menstruating, changing rapidly and trying to figure out how to deal with all her powerful new emotions, impulses and desire for independence). He held my hand, told me "you're so smart - and right", and reiterated his commitment to paying attention to/curtailing his impulse to be her emotional peer rather than her parent, to model what he wanted from her rather than demanding it even while acting like an ogre. Then he thanked me for working at talking to him despite his defensive walls and acting out, for making him listen. It was a lovely moment.

Our conflicts seem to be on hiatus, too. Draining as it was, it was very helpful to have all those conversations. Our conflicts had been getting unmanageable, as were his with our daughter (principle reasons to come here and post myself into a corner of proper thinking!). There's still some fallout (I'm experiencing the withdrawal, depression/anxiety and the decline in competence/diligence), but progress can be made now that this particular barrier has been crossed. Unitl next time...

After we discussed his "success", I was trying to ask my husband if he thought discussing his childhood with his personal therapist was beneficial in a significant way - but my daughter finished her homework before I could get a comprehensive answer. then it needed to be about her for awhile, after which life in general took over.

I hope to pick that up again today.

T

[Anonymous]

T wrote:  

My distorted view of myself (Jayne, perhaps) leads me to have distorted views of others.

How do you know your view is distorted? Do others disagree with your view? Does that make their view correct?

I think my intellectual view of myself is more correct, but my emotional view is what is truly distorted. Thee consistent feedback of others helps me make this determination.

A couple of good examples:

I am a musician/singer/songwriter. I am actually well-thought-of, receive much positive feedback, have some fans, and am the only singer in my city who is allowed to work in one of my venues (others do not have the control required to work appropriately for this venue; they don't know how to check the Diva at the door and blend with the musicians). I have recorded with a grammy-nominated producer and rock band as a backing vocalist, have been on regular rotation on the radio, etc, etc, etc.

All that aside, I still FEEL incompetent and worthless unless I am actually doing the work. When I think about the next time I will go work, I FEEL certain that I am a big fraud and will fail. It is as if no amount of success will teach me to FEEL my value.

These negative feeling keep me from ambitiously pursuing what actually makes me happy in a real and significant way. I have never asked for work - I get all my work by word of mouth. Others must call me; I cannot bring myself to approach someone to ask for an audition or a gig, no matter how badly I may want it.

It is similar in my graphic design work (self-employed). I'm really decent at it and have a strong niche market (specialization). I have happy customers and get new customers regularly (same word of mouth principle). Obviously, if people happily pay me 50.00/hour for my creativity and competence, it's there.

but I do not FEEL it. Every job, just like being a musicain, I anticipate not with excitement, but with dread. I FEEL like "this is the time I will be exposed for the horrible fraud and person that I really am". Plus, I'm low-balling on the pay - my peers, many less skilled, in this city make 75.00 - 150.00/hour. I'm afraid to ask for fear of being laughed at!


Past employment situations have been similar. I've barely applied for jobs, even where I knew people, but always did well and moved up relatively quickly. However, this upward movement is only because someone approached me about taking a higher position; I've never asked for a promotion. Ditto for raises. I FEEL I don't deserve it and would look foolish if I inquired.

I've been fortunate that there are others who care enough and value my skills enough to make these things happen for me.

I'm very much a cripple in terms of doing it myself.

Thanks for asking and making me think about it out loud.

T

I even have a song about this feeling. Here's the first lines:

this broken down and rusted limousine
it carries you and me through alleyways
so littered with the dust of dreaming

and all the while the boulevard is glittering
and paved with gold and strolled upon
by those who know the art of seeming

(for whatever it's worth)

[Anonymous]

T, I don’t do anything remotely coming close to your achievements. I feel inadequate when I measure myself against what you have written, deeply inadequate in terms of ‘doing’ things.

But I remember the impostor syndrome where we feel a fraud, whatever we do. Check: http://www.impostorsyndrome.com/

[Anonymous]

Hi T and all:

But you said: "leads me to have a distorted view of others".

In what way, T?  How do view others and what is distorted about it?

....that I am a big fraud and will fail...I cannot bring myself to approach someone to ask for an audition or a gig, no matter how badly I may want it....Every job, just like being a musicain, I anticipate not with excitement, but with dread. I FEEL like "this is the time I will be exposed for the horrible fraud and person that I really am....I've never asked for a promotion. Ditto for raises. I FEEL I don't deserve it and would look foolish if I inquired.

Do you realize that most of these are  .....thoughts......not feelings?

This is stuff you are thinking (and maybe these thoughts are producing feelings inside of worthlessness, incompetence, unworthy of praise and recognition, .......smallllllll????

Just my thoughts for now T.

I do the same types of things sometimes.  Think negative thoughts which produce negative feelings inside myself.  The way I fix it is to:

a)  Blatently tell myself to "stop it"
b)  Substitute one positive thought, over and over, until I accept it.
c)  Remind myself that I am not perfect and neither is anyone else.

Still.......habits are formed and maybe that's the whole trick?  Maybe you will have to try to catch yourself having these thoughts and then put a stop to it?  Over and over until a new habit is formed?

It helps me to think stuff through too T, and writing here forces me to do that.  Your song has worth and value....doesn't it?

GFN

[Anonymous]

Think negative thoughts which produce negative feelings inside myself. The way I fix it is to:

a) Blatently tell myself to "stop it"
b) Substitute one positive thought, over and over, until I accept it.
c) Remind myself that I am not perfect and neither is anyone else.

This is a coping technique which maintains the core problems, it does not solve them.

[Anonymous]

T - Impostor Syndrome. More meat on the bones, a 6-page PDF:
http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwaow/resources/ip_issues.pdf

or a personal story or two:
http://www.motivationalworks.com/books/index.cfm?bookid=4&ID=18

[Anonymous]

But you said: "leads me to have a distorted view of others".

In what way, T? How do view others and what is distorted about it?

Do you realize that most of these are .....thoughts......not feelings?

My distorted view of others, especially in "peer" situations causes me to FEEL that they are inerrantly superior to me. Sometimes this is true (there are performers and writers and artists that blow my doors off, which is okay by me. I learn from them.) - but often it is not. In the cases of not, I have difficulty FEELING that I am an equal or even better (which is also sometimes true), although I sometimes find out later through hard evidence that I, in fact, am equal or superior at whatever task is in question.

It is, I guess, my immediate assumption that all comers have it over me, and it doesn't occur to me to think or feel otherwise until I see evidence to that effect. Sometimes I can recover from this, sometimes not. If it has gone too far by the time I catch on to myself, it can be next to impossible to right the situation, because I've already given up my power in the relationship. With musicians, especially, this can be hard (talk about narcissism - it's almost a prerequisite).

Perhaps in some ways, these are thoughts - and I do apply my language moderation techniques to get me through difficult situations that flip these switches - but, as Bunny noted in an earlier post, feelings are physiological in nature, and I do often experience the physiological part before I am able to articulate to myself what the "inner voices" are up to. It is a kind of sweaty panic that varies in intensity according to the situation, and that "shrinking into small stillness" feeling comes as a natural part of that, too. That smallness is a time-honored and somewhat autonomic way for me to avoid harm (though I know it has to go - working on it).

I should note that I do not show these feelings publicly, aside from the fact that I decline to pursue lofty goals or assert myself loudly as a talented/skilled person (if I did show my feelings, I would not be as sucessful as I am now - no one would want to deal with that from a professional). Otherwise, I remain relatively silent and just about always do what I'm asked to do, unless I think it will cause me too much anxiety (I have turned down a couple of bigger opportunities, using lame excuses like timing and such as a cover). In fact, there is a possible such opportunity under casual discussion now, and I'm trying hard to figure out how to cross that bridge should I come to it.

I know pretty well the origins of these feelings - much from the Mother voice - who told me I could not achieve anything of the sort, who told me I too flawed and f*d up  and bad and worthless and sick and selfish and.... No matter what I said I wanted to be as a child (musician, lawyer, archaeologist, etc), the answer was the same :"You'll never be anything at this rate, you're too x, y, and z" and/or "We all know you're smart, but you're x, y and z.".

I now know she was repeating pretty much the words of her own father and her own internal view of herself, although does not make it easier.

Dr. Grossman's essay on "liitle  voice" pretty much sums that up, where he talks about how the little voice, so well trained by the loudly and adamantly dominating voices of the dysfuntional parents, does not WANT anything for self.

It's a process.

T

(thanks for the links- they look like they can be helpful!)