Things I wish I could tell my ex

[miaxo]

Thank your lucky stars you're not the poor soul having his children. She will suffer for the rest of her life.

In this situation there never will be any resolution with a N.  It's quite a bleak outlook.  Depressing to think about....so I try not to dwell on it.

[Brigid]

I think all of the components can be displayed at different times by different N personalities.  My T explains that deep inside they are so filled with shame that they build a very hard shell around that shame to protect it from ever being shown to others.  I think subconsciously they are aware of it, but even they can't openly accept that it is there or they would have to face how dysfunctional and pitiful they are.

My T says that my H may actually have cared about me enough to finally realize that he could never be on the same intellectual or emotional plane with me and left to save me from him.  I might have bought that if not for the fact that during the six weeks we were in therapy before he left he degraded and used me and truly enjoyed doing it.  He took total advantage of my vulnerability at the time and the power over me was like a drug.  Eventually, he couldn't play the game any more and wanted too much to be able to be with his girlfriend who undoubtedly was supplying his N fix better than I.

I do not know if all N's fit this profile, but mine was always searching for the next thing to make him happy.  Getting married, having kids, building a business, starting new hobbies, building a house.  The list goes on and on.  Nothing ever lasted for long and most projects were abandoned mid-stream.  I guess the same could be said for being a husband and father.  Whatever the "project" was, once it stopped making him feel good, he gave it up.

I think that I would feel better now if I at least felt 'remembered' by him in a positive way.

Lara, I agree with you.  We want to feel that they cared about us in some way for all those years.  I think in my case I keep hoping I'll see a glimmer of the man I thought he was so I can somehow validate all the years I gave to him.  I think I will just have to be content knowing that it was good for the kids for it to have lasted as long as it did.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

I wrote,

Thank your lucky stars you're not the poor soul having his children. She will suffer for the rest of her life.

Mia wrote,

In this situation there never will be any resolution with a N. It's quite a bleak outlook. Depressing to think about....so I try not to dwell on it.

 I was thinking of you and a few others when I wrote that. Sorry if I made you dwell on something you had put out of your mind for awhile.
Maybe you need to treat yourself to something today. Good idea?

mud

[Anonymous]

Hey Brigid,

I think in my case I keep hoping I'll see a glimmer of the man I thought he was so I can somehow validate all the years I gave to him

.
Maybe this is one of the things I don't get, but to me what validates the years you gave him is your very own word 'gave'.
 Your loving and giving is valid on its own. Just because the object of your giving turned out to be a phony and undeserving doesn't cheapen what you were doing. When they use the good in us for their selfish aims the bad is all on them. We may have been too trusting or too unwilling to see them for what they are but those aren't evil motives.
The unlovable cannot give the loving validation. Giving, especially when you don't receive, is one of the most valid and selfless things there is, isn't it?

mudpup

[mum]

Mudpup, you are so nice to be concerned about Mia's remembering how "stuck" she is, having had kids with the jerk.  You were right though.  Lara is darn lucky!  
Mia:  lets take Mud's advice and go to a yoga class (RIGHT NOW!!!!)
(sorry, other thread).
Mud; perhaps I can speak for Mia (?) as well.  It's ok for you to mention that....it makes us feel like you "get" our situation.

[2cents]

Just a response to what Brigid said. I think they know they are empty inside, and that they ARE their shame. If you were empty inside and you met a wonderful, caring, loving, beautiful person wouldn't YOU be envious? Wouldn't YOU wish that you could be just like that?

Maybe the conflict goes something like this: I am empty and worthless inside. One day I come across someone wonderful, and I WANT TO BE LIKE THAT PERSON. But I can't, because I am full of SHAME. THIS is what I have to protect and hide. The non-damaged parts of me RESPOND to you (which leaves me feeling exposed, vulnerable and fake) but the damaged parts shout louder and longer. I am so used to accepting, internalising and living with the DAMAGE that ANYTHING that feels like HEALING sets up a conflict in me. I don't have the energy to address both you AND the damage. Eventually I will give in to the damage. Because the damage speaks louder and longer than anything good. When this happens I know that I have lost. I KNOW that I am never going to be as good as you, so I've got to leave. But let me disguise the anguish of my leaving as a cruel and callous victory over you, so that YOU will truly leave ME alone  because I am truly unworthy of YOU.

Not wanting to trivialise anyone's feelings or situation, just my 2 cents worth. Any thoughts?

[Anonymous]

2 cents,
You're right on the money. Ouch, another stink bomb.
Anyway, I think you nailed it. I visualize these people as having a constant internal civil war. One side is completely powerless(the decent side) but it is never completely defeated. It fights just enough to keep them miserable but never (or almost never) enough to win.

mudpuppy

[mum]

2 cents (any relation to 50?) and mud:
I really see what this all means...it all makes sense.  It is just a really tough creek to cross, because getting away from my ex N, meant I needed to de-humanize him in a way.  His frailty I could always see: "I know why he is so nasty...he's so full of pain, it's not his fault".  My ablility to see his humanity was used against me all the time, and when I finally figured that out, the LAST thing I needed to do was see the true picture....a little lost boy who never got enough love as a child.

 What I HAD to do was seperate, notice the big differences between us, a hard thing to do for someone (any N victim, I imagine) whose very global and loving approach to life made them a target in the first place.
I do think you are right.  I can see where thinking that way can empower us as well.  I just think sometimes there is so much damage (and some of us can never get away from them) from the N  that seeing them as bad bad bad and not bothering tooo much to figure them out (they love to feel our focus) is a way to keep protected.
Did that make sense?  It's not really an "opposite" point of view, though, is it?

[Anonymous]

mum,
Its not opposite at all, just two sides of the same coin, I think.
At a certain level none of this matters. What motivates them or how self aware are they, I mean. For most of us it is simlpy a matter of getting as seperated and unentangled as possible  for our own survival, then when we're relatively safe, if we have the luxury of trying to figure them out, fine.

mud

[Anonymous]

2cents,

It sounds pretty close to what's going on inside of them. What you call the damage speaking louder and more powerfully is what I call massive anxiety.

mum,

Even if you have compassion for the damaged person and how screwed up they are, miserable, etc., it doesn't change the destructive situation. I agree that if there's "too much sympathy" for the person's hurt and pain, it could lead to further disaster. They won't respond to kindness; in fact they may retaliate. One has to be self-protective.

bunny

[Guest_NewDay]

This thread is helping me so much.  

2 cents, when I read your scenario, I feel like I was reading my exN's mind.  I do think that is what goes on in his mind.  In a normal, healthy person, they emulate the positive characteristics in a friend, mate, or loved one, and they may draw from those strengths, and share and give back.  But with a N, it's as though those strengths, the optimism, joy, ability to feel and care and love become glaring reminders of what they do not have.  So they lash out, devalue and, well, you know the drill.

Mudpuppy said:
If you are weak and submissive you will get his approval. If you stand up for yourself, inside he respects and probably fears you, but outside its time to attack because you are denying him supply and threatening his facade.

Wow, I think you nailed this, too.  I *do* think they respect us for standing up for ourselves, but they can't handle it.   If we're only there to act as supply, of course they can't handle it, we're stepping out of our role and if we don't stay in the role to serve their purposes. WHAP.  

When I look back on ALL THE TIMES my exN told me he was JEALOUS of me.  Or envious of me, you would not believe it.  He said it and I never understood it.  He used to say it regarding how nice my parents were, and how I got unconditional love when I was growing up,  I can see now he meant much much more.  He even said it in the final days before I moved out.   "I AM JEALOUS OF YOU."  It made me feel so strange.  

Thank you for this thread.  I learn so much from all of you, and it is a great comfort to me.

Terry

[Brigid]

Dear 2 Cents,

I read your post a couple of hours ago and literally couldn't respond at the time because I was so overwhelmed by what you said.

I agree with Mum that our need to dehumanize these people who hurt and damaged us at such a high level, makes sympathy towards them very difficult.  Maybe for me it is still too new and raw and I need to be further away in order to process his misery.

I KNOW what you say is true.  In fact, I may print it out to remind myself periodically that there's a chance that in his own pathetic way he did care about me and knew that my only chance at happiness would be without him in my life.

Thank you for your perspective.  I am impressed by your enlightenment.  I would love to know your story.

Brigid

[Chandra]

Dear Lara,

I so appreciate this post. I can so relate, but my pain has significantly decreased since reading Help I'm in Love with a Narcissist. It has been so healing for me. Have you taken a look at it yet?

3. I wish I had not confided my deepest secrets to you. I told you personal things about people in my life who were very special to me;and I shared things that nobody else knows about me. I would like to tell you now that you were not a person worthy of receiving these confidences. The reason I told you was that I believed you were my soulmate, and that I believed we would be there for each other, as friends or as lovers, for the rest of our lives.

I too wish I had not revealed my deepest vulnerabilities because he went out of his way to NOT give me what I wanted and needed. I always thought that you are supposed to reveal what you want and need in an intimate relationship even though it is terribly risky. I took the risk and he just used it all against me. Such a betrayal!!!

I will read the rest of the thread and probably write some more in the morning. It is late. Take care dear Lara.

Chandra

[Anonymous]

Personally I think "dehumanizing" someone can hinder ones own healing.  I think it is possible to have sympathy for someone and still move on.  Let me try a little story here, say you find yourself in the water with someone.  Your intent is to enjoy the water with them.  They appear to be intent on drowning themselves and drowning you with them.  When one comes to this awareness I think it's appropriate to have the attitude of "Hey I would like to enjoy the water with you, but it just does not seem to be working, so sorry I'm going to have to move on now."

I came here because of problems with my parents, it is a difficult situation when it is your parents.  It has to be very difficult when the situation is with someone you have children with.  This very much complicates the situation and it's not possible while the children are minors to actually "leave" the other person totally.

LM

[Lara]

Dear Everyone,
I've been reading all the posts with great interest, and now there are thoughts buzzing round my head. I need to put them into some kind of shape. I agree 100% that I am lucky not to have kids with my ex, and hence the lasting pain that that causes. On the other hand I think you will agree that when one is in the pain of the moment, it is difficult to take the longer view in that way. Pain is pain when it hits you.

I'm glad I put pen to paper (electronically!) yesterday. What I wrote came from very deep inside me;I cried as I typed it, so it was probably necessary for me to get it out. My ex can't give me any closure, so I need to find a way to fill in the gaps myself, in a way where I neither delude myself about what was going on in the relationship, nor beat myself up more than I already have.

Dear Chandra, thanks for the book recommendation.I 've been trying to get a copy here in England since you first posted about it, but no success so far. I prefer to buy books in person rather than using Amazon, but may have to do that if I can't get my hands on a copy soon.

Love to all the great posters here,
Lara.