My way or the highway

[phillip]

Years ago my boss at work made a statement to me that I have never forgotten. He said, "Never trust a person that always needs to be right." I have come to realize that whenever I do this myself, I am merely attempting to create a stronger sense of self-esteem for myself. This is a safety issue. One may call it assertiveness, even aggressiveness, but the fact remains that it is generated from an internal lack in my sense of just being adequate. Unfortunately I have recognized that when I push my views at others in dogmatic fashion, not only do I not get the quick fix that I was unconsciously pursuing, but I actually isolate myself, because others do not enjoy being cajoled into compliance with my somewhat subjective demands. The bottom line is that forced compliance by another's demands strongly suggests a total lack of control by that person. A confidence level that is so low that absolutely no argument may be tolerated, by anyone. In the end, the only people left in such a person's life, would be those that are silent, with no opinions, no disagreements, no input. This appears to be the MO of a true narcissist, and points to the psychological neediness of the narcissist in general. Domination of all threats, real or imagined, and subsequent emotional isolation the end result. A very sad but understandable outcome. Just my thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Um...yeah. That's how it works.

[Anonymous]

Hello Phillip:

I have come to realize that whenever I do this myself, I am merely attempting to create a stronger sense of self-esteem for myself.

Well you certainly are brave to admit having done this!  Good for you Phillip!  (Every one else is perfect.....just kidding ).

I've never thought about that before...about how voicing a strong opinion might just be a way of enhancing/or maybe testing... self-esteem.  If others agree.......well...isn't that nice.  Things go along nicely and it feels pretty darn good.  But if no one agrees, I feel (for at least a short time) wierid....far out in the field and I might wonder:  "Am I nutty?", "Should I re-think this?", "oh-oh....I'm way off", or...."No way.....I'm sticking with this and it doesn't matter if others agree", depending on a number of factors, I suppose.

when I push my views at others in dogmatic fashion, not only do I not get the quick fix that I was unconsciously pursuing, but I actually isolate myself, because others do not enjoy being cajoled into compliance with my somewhat subjective demands.

For me.....I usually give it a couple good tries and quit after that.  I wouldn't say I push my views dogmatically but I might restate them/reword them and see what happens.  Or mention them at a later date, when it seems appropriate.  Still......I think I understand what you're saying.  When someone rejects your views, it's a bit of a blow to the ego, in a way, unless you tell yourself differently.  If you are a person who really worries about what other people think of you, then this might be real tricky for you.

Do you think this is something you need help with Phillip, or is it just something you are interested in discussing?

Glad you're still here posting.

GFN

[phillip]

I have been thinking about all of this because recently Wispery and I have had our own experiences with a n-female.  As a result, I have drawn some conclusions concerning the subject.  First of all, I do not believe that narcissists are exhibiting behaviors that are distinct from other people.  The difference is in degree.  For me narcissist is merely a word.  Kinda like the devil, or evil.  The word carries with it all kinds of connotations, but it is still a word.  
The people we label as narcissists are people who operate within a very narrow safety zone, much more limited than most other people.  They do not know how to adjust to the vagaries of normal interaction.  This could be due to poor parenting, a damaged childhood, probably a plethora of influences.  But, the result is that they can not maintain their psychological integrity unless their narrow boundaries are RIGID.  Since most relationships involve a whole bunch of question marks where emotions are concerned, the narcissist not only needs but must DEMAND absolute control of all situations.  This is how a safe reality is maintained for the narcissist.  
The fact that this mode of operation does not work for the narcissist in terms of close emotional relationships is subordinate to the control of all possible threats to internal integrity.
I believe there is some of this in all of us.  We are the center of our own universe.  Sages have always said that no matter what we do, we do it for ourselves.  Even in the case of sacrifices, we always derive something out of the experience that we must have.  People that are labeled as narcissists differ from the rest of humanity because they make it difficult, if not impossible, to live with them normally.
I think this is why so many marriages fail.  Because eventually many relationships will return to a point of each person not getting their needs met, within that relationship.  And when needs overpower mutually, the relationship collapses.  
Sometimes need is so irrational, so damaging.  This is where decisions are not made.  The person is on automatic pilot.  Walking though sleeping within a trance.  I think that the narcissist is in a deep trance.  These are just my opinions and I wished to share them.  Thanks for listening.

[Anonymous]

I do not believe that narcissists are exhibiting behaviors that are distinct from other people.

I have to agree with you here. I have been pondering your first post all day, even discussed it with my T.  Someone who is overly conscientiuos, for example, possesses the trait of needing to be right. This quality can also alienate these types of people from the "normal". Holding onto strong moral principles & values, perfectionism, afraid to make the wrong decision-all based on fear of hurting the ego somehow.

What sets the conscientious apart from the N would be the other aspects of the personality.

. "Never trust a person that always needs to be right."

(I would trust the overly conscientiuos, but probably not the N).

control of all situations. This is how a safe reality is maintained for the narcissist.

Control, is this not the basis of many personality disorders??Not to mention alcoholism, anxiety disorders, anorexia, etc....

[phillip]

Motive is everything.  In the debate of conscientious vs always being right, the issue would be motive.  What propels one toward perfectionism?  Is it a genuine desire to do and be one's best, because the person has chosen excellence as a way to best fulfill his life, or is it a hidden need to prove that he is not as unworthy as he may suspect that he is?  A co-worker once shared with me the following: He said, "You know, perfectionism is NOT a virtue."  It masks a weakness in self-regard.  The bottomless well can not be filled with symbolic band-aids.  It never ends, the struggle to be comfortable with oneself, until the individual goes within and KNOWS his heart.  This is all about personal intimacy.  A very dangerous place, for one that needs CONSTRUCTS.  Some need more than others.  And in a constantly changing reality, freedom of movement, mental and emotional, is a healthy thing.  Options=well-being.  My thoughts.  Peace.

[dogbit]

Philip...I think you have started a very interesting thread but what is going on with you on a personal level to have raised the issue?  And, you don't have to reply....Just curious.  Bittles

[phillip]

I have a chat board set up.  And my friend invited a friend of her's to join us.  After a period of time another male friend joined our board. The woman that was invited, began to attack the male friend on the board.  At first we attempted to appease her, to keep the peace.  Then she accused us of taking sides against her, because we would not support her position.  Her animosity against us all for not agreeing with her began to take on huge proportions, eventually resulting in deletion of her posts because they were downright profane.  She sees this as assertiveness, but it is some sort of acting out.  She has also referenced her husband, as being non-confrontational and seems to have a low opinion of this quality in him.  We tried for months to appease her, just to keep the peace, but eventually her attacks were causing people to vacate our chat board.  This is really the first time I have had such an overt experience with a personality such as this and to this extent.  It has left us both shaken.  No matter what we did, we were wrong unless we supported her 100%.  Eventually we had to support her victim, because even new people were seeing the conflict, and trying to figure her out.  I learned alot under fire, I am afraid.  I am still shaken by the absurdity of it all.  This is why I felt it necessary to get it all out.  It is helping me to organize it in my mind .  Thanks for asking.

[Wispery]

It was a very difficult thing for us to see and experience. What he says, really happened. We were there for her in personal ways, to help and support her, and try to be a friend, what a friend is supposed to be, to be there for eachother. She melted down, a sight that was very sad for everyone to witness. She is gone, but in my heart, I hope that something jogs her memory and she remembers who her friends were, and comes back with a new perspective, only not abusing one of our friends anymore.

It was a hideous sight. I hope the worst is over, but you can never tell, with these things.

[Stormchild Guesting]

phillip and wispery, this sounds a lot like the kind of thing that happens with borderline personality disorder. i don't know the woman of course, so i could be mistaken, but that escalating ferocious inability to let go of something is very much part of that disorder, and so is the framing of all disagreement as utter betrayal...

but there are folks here with much better understanding of this than i. i'll defer to their opinions.

let me just say i am so sorry that you experienced this, especially in the context of something constructive that you were trying to do. that has to have been incredibly upsetting and disheartening.

cool blue peace thoughts to both of you.

[Wispery]

Thank you so much for the kind words. I SAW HER HEART, once upon a time, so long ago now, about 6 or 7 years ago, we were brought together by theb hand of the unseen forces, and we became heart sisters, pulling eachother through a very difficult time. She is a beautiful person, but so lost, so hurt, so traumatized, so beaten up by life, so abused herself, that she is trapped inside, and can't find a way to help herself, so she is splattering all over the place.

God help me, I don't know how to help her.

[Stormchild Guesting]

((((((((((Wispery))))))))))

crying for you and for her and for phillip too.      

sometimes the only thing you can do is release and step back, but dear god it hurts, how it hurts. i'm so sorry.

[phillip]

Something good has come out of it though.  It has taught me NOT to go into my own acting out, when attacked.  I have to admit, at times I was sorely tempted to deliver like for like.  But then Wispery would always give me reason to pause, and gently ask me if I really wanted to go down that path with our emotions.  It has been difficult to just let it go, but I did that time and time again.  It was not until we were nearly going to close the board, that I decided it was time to do something for the greatest good.  I still hope though.  She is so troubled, and we never would have turned our backs on her.

[Wispery]

We haven't turned our backs on her. That is only an illusion, becuase we let her go.

Somewhere, somehow, some way, she will remember. She will come home, to her friends.

I have to believe that. Otherwise, she is lost, and I can't accept that. I don't know how to accept that. She is worth it.

She has to know, deep down, that we love her, and will remember.

[d'smom]

"Never trust a person that always needs to be right."

this is brilliant = im adding this to my Permanent Mom Advice right next to 'dont trust people who arent able to laugh at themselves'.

we should make a ten commandments for identifying unhealthy friends/associates.

Motive is everything. In the debate of conscientious vs always being right, the issue would be motive. What propels one toward perfectionism? Is it a genuine desire to do and be one's best, because the person has chosen excellence as a way to best fulfill his life, or is it a hidden need to prove that he is not as unworthy as he may suspect that he is? A co-worker once shared with me the following: He said, "You know, perfectionism is NOT a virtue." It masks a weakness in self-regard.

this is really interesting..... my thought is bottom line noone will ever do -everything- 'right' no matter what they say or do or who they are anyway.... it isnt possible...... even if 'right' were an absolute that could be defined which im not too sure it is.  

noone and nothing is perfect, I dont believe it is possible or desirable... a 'perfect' life would be dull, boring, devoid, and pretty darn unsatisfying as well as being evolutionarily unproductive since a huge percentage of crucial inventions including genetic variation -could- be called 'mistakes'.

people who are focused on fear of some weird concept called 'wrong' and 'mistake' i find very tedious and limited in their thinking and NO fun to be around. there is no ultimate right and wrong in life.. the internet should prove that beyond any doubt.. there is an opinion for every person and theres a LOT of people. being 'wrong' is the compost in the garden of life :}}

i feel people who are afraid to be 'wrong' are cutting themselves off from a lot of the richness of life. they cant learn. they cant grow. they cant see others. its a stunted way to live.

At first we attempted to appease her, to keep the  peace. Then she accused us of taking sides against her, because we would not support her position. Her animosity against us all for not agreeing with her began to take on huge  proportions, eventually resulting in deletion of her posts because they were downright  profane. She sees this as assertiveness, but it is some sort of acting out.

true assertiveness respects others positions as much as ones own, even if one disagrees.

sorry you had to deal with that person, very interesting discussion.
anna