Once an Angry Man

[mudpuppy]

Hi longtire and Resolution,

Resolution,

OK, that makes a lot more sense; answering for the N. In fact that actually sounds kind of useful. Keeping the answers perfectly objective might be a little tough after a few decades of abuse, though.

Long,

I'm not sure if this is profound, but if feels that way to me.

Me too. One of your best posts, you nailed every topic you discussed.
Too bad you had to get your degree from the school of hard kNocks.(sorry couldn't figure out how to work a B into that.)

mud

[Portia]

Longtire, great. I do appreciate your posts.

If we haven't been taught or had to learn that some people lie regularly and don't seem to suffer any conscience about it, then we don't look for it because we are not aware that it is a common possibility.

Yup. A thousand yups.

Once learned, it is a lot harder to suppress awareness of these problems in others, though it can still be done.   Suppressing is more difficult long term than not being aware of it at all in the first place.

Ahh. So that’s why I keep looking for other peoples’ hang-ups, even when they’re not there? Thinking “where’s the catch?”? I don’t like doing it but yes, it’s darn difficult not to.

In some cases, people were actually taught that they DIDN'T deserve good treatment from others or that EVERYONE acts this way, so there is no use looking for anything else.

Both! I wish I could think this succinctly longtire. This double-whammy is awful isn’t it. I did think everyone was like that.

The REAL betrayal came in not teaching us to expect good treatment and to be unaware that not everyone we meet would be able to treat us well.

Do some parents pass this on to their children then? Really, truly? I'm not being coy here. If I'd had had kids, I'd have told them the world was a place you had to fight to survive in.

than for the inchers (like me).

tsk? The effect is how a child perceives it, not what actually happens according to an (imaginary) objective observer?

So the answer is to (1) recognise the unhealthy relationships and (2) recognise that we made it happen as much as the other person? And learn to look for and appreciate healthy relationships?  

[jophil]

This issue of whether people are NPD or just Bastard/bitches reminds me of that old dilemma about whether he/she is an alcoholic or *just* a heavy drinker. What does it matter? Both of these types cause serious damage to themselves and to all of those around them. The trick is to decide whether their behavior is healthy/ loving/ valuable or decent and whether you should tolerate it or leave, if or when it becomes habitual.
My 2 cents...John.

[Resolution]

ahhh, now here comes the catch! Inverted Narcissim or INPD combined with NPD ain't like anything compared to having one or two drinks too many!

At the core of NPD, anyone 'healthy' who finds themselves in a relationship with such a person would run a mile! Yes of course it isn't that easy if they're a family member, but even then they would distance themselves! It is to those that continually insist upon maintaining/investing of themselves in such relationships that fascinates me!

I had no idea that in principle I was co-dependent as a personality. I'd been in and out of relationships before and never would anyone who knew me, have described me as one. But with this person and this person only, I couldn't stop placing my hand repeated back and into the fire! I was absolutely stumped and very much stuck in a rut over this one. I could say it was love, but long after any normal person would have hit the ejection button, I still continued to slog away at fixing/understanding her! The stupidest thing I've ever done! I can best describe it as running with my penis in hand along a pebble dashed wall.....crazy!!

To helping solve the above problem, it would have been good for me to have known in advance, mine and theirs personality issues. Mine were subconcsious, but very much present.....and well hidden. I won't waste time in going into them, but they were there. Hers were also loud and clear....but I dismissed them. If something akin to what I've been writing about was available then, it would have wanted the questions asked in two ways. Namely: Please answer these set of question with you'r ****NPDer in mind, I.E put yourself in their place and answer the questions to the best of your ability knowing them....and the second set of exactly the same questions would be completed with the question: Please answer these questions with you as the target person. From this you would be able to generate two graphs displaying both personalities side-by-side. And from my experience in HR, it would be very revealing!

I believe that I'm possibly an Inverted Narcissist....but probably only whilst with this person. Outside of this relationship and left to my own devices for a good period of time, I reverted back to fairly normal, joe schmo ways of doing things. I tended to notice, and so did others, big changes in me when away from this person. When with her, everyone noticed large changes in my personality.

So when I read threads from other poor souls search.....no pleading for answers and to have their experiences listened too, I keep seeing me doing exactly the same as them, years ago! In relationship terms....as I say, any normal person would peg it! But as with most alcoholics, they tend to really on people close to them feeding their habit....because they care for them......how crazy is that!! 'I love you and so yes, let me go down to the booze shop, buy you your fix and watch you slowly die as a result!' It's the same with people involved in any form of relationship with a high scoring Narcissist! 'Here let me bend over more so you can get a better shot at my testicles with your right foot.......wouldn't want you to hurt yourself now, would we!' (change testicles for ass if you're a girlie).

So my test would be designed in such a way as to prove to the inverted or happless person, the shear futility in what they are trying to do for the so called person they care about!

[guestingab]

From my understanding of NPD, it is an all pervasive disorder.  I don't think that one that suffers from NPD can turn it off.  The definition Inverted Narcissists is that they only seek out narcissists, the only time they feel whole is when in a relationship with an N.  The disorder doesn't go away when they aren't around an N.  Your first post talks about how content you are, how life is great, etc.  If you were an inverted narcissist, you wouldn't be content without an N in your life.  To say that you are an inverted narcissist but only when around her is a contradiction.  Inverted narcissists don't get better, just as those with NPD don't.

I think that anyone that has been in a relationship with an N will have serious questions and pain, but that doesn't make them an N.  Any person suffering from the abuse of an N is going to seek out answers.  Codependency and Inverted Narcissism are 2 different things.





[/quote]

[P]

Inverted narcissism is another term for covert narcissism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_narcissist
Best of luck to you Resolution - portia

[Brigid]

Longtire,
I found your post to be very profound.  I agree it is one of your best.

If we haven't been taught or had to learn that some people lie regularly and don't seem to suffer any conscience about it, then we don't look for it because we are not aware that it is a common possibility.

Certainly my problem.  I believed all my ex told me and never questioned it.  I never lied to him about anything and I assumed he did the same.

We seem to have a drive to repeat situations from the past to "solve" them or find ways to fix them.

This is what my T has told me.  I keep searching for a man I can fix, who is replacing the father I could not fix.

So, it seems to me that the damage done to us by our caretakers when we were young was the failure to teach us to take care of ourselves, both by spotting unhealthy people and by expecting and insisting on good treatment from others. In some cases, people were actually taught that they DIDN'T deserve good treatment from others or that EVERYONE acts this way, so there is no use looking for anything else.

Also true.  Portia, I don't think it was a conscious teaching.  Children learn from their parents by observing their behavior more than what they are told imo.  My father treated my mother poorly as well as me and my brother, so you learn to expect that from everyone.  Because my mother never demanded anything better, I was also taught not to demand or expect to be treated well.  Both of my failed marriages were to men who threw me scraps of love and attention and I felt grateful for what I got.


Resolution said:

Also a number of people are reading into bad behaviour coming from a person and immediately labelling them with NPD. Often this isn't so, and I'm convinced that many people are ending their relationships because others convince them quickly over the net that their partner has NPD when they don't!

This seems somewhat hard to believe, but I guess you have observed it.  If someone is in a relationship with a person they truly love, I can't imagine they would be looking for reasons to get out of it.  If their partner is that difficult to live with and apparently unwilling to get counseling, perhaps ending the marriage is the only option whether the person is n or not.

The stupidest thing I've ever done! I can best describe it as running with my penis in hand along a pebble dashed wall.....crazy!!

I would have no personal knowledge of this, but it sounds very painful.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

it would have been good for me to have known in advance, mine and theirs personality issues.

Well, wouldn't we all! We can assess ourselves to varying degrees, but unfortunately in order to assess someone else, we have to get to know them somewhat. How are you going to do your test on their behalf if you don't know them enough?

So when I read threads from other poor souls search.....no pleading for answers and to have their experiences listened too,

This forum is primarily for those who have been voiceless and have already begun the healing process. If I hadn't come across the word "narcissist" I wouldn't have found this site. "Pleading for answers" implies that they don't have clue as to what is going on in their lives. They know. They know damn well that they've been dealing with a Narcissist at what ever degree they are.

[P]

Portia, I don't think it was a conscious teaching. Children learn from their parents by observing their behavior more than what they are told imo. My father treated my mother poorly as well as me and my brother, so you learn to expect that from everyone. Because my mother never demanded anything better, I was also taught not to demand or expect to be treated well.

Thanks Brigid, I understand. It was a great post from longtire wasn't it? Maybe I should print it out  

[bunny as guest]

longtire - A masterpiece! You've come a long way. I'm going to add something because I'm so inspired.

Sometimes when we encounter people who ARE nice, giving, warm, functional, we will PROVOKE them to act in the ways that we're accustomed to, so we can stay in that insulated codependent universe. It's an addiction with withdrawal symptoms when we start to give it up.

bunny

[mum]

Thank you, Longtire, your post was eloquent and, yes, profound.

I think we do all arrive at things along a different path, that much is clear. I have found what you said to be true for me, that I expected people to behave  honestly, and had no clue that they could be otherwise, especially if they were in "love" with me.  In my home, growing up, people behaved lovingly....their actions matched their words, for the most part.
What a shock when I found it otherwise....so I kept trying to "fix" those people who didn't get this as a child.  From what I had learned growing up....love healed all wounds.  Sure it does......

On the other hand, I had also learned things about myself that were not true, yet I cannot pin it on any one or any one circumstance.  It was my interpretation of my childhood experience, religious training, based on who I am as a soul what level of awareness I had, that led me to this place on my path.  

I do not believe I was a "clean slate" at birth.  I should add, that when I say this, I am not talking about the Christian concept of "original sin" unless it would be to say that it simply means we are human and fallible as such.
I believe I have a soul that is on a path. Whether it ends here or moves on is up for grabs (won't find that out until  I leave the world, I suppose), but obviously, I believe there is more to it than just birth, death and the stuff in between.

Yet the other part of it, I realize now after lots of work, is that although I cannot find a direct cause to pinpoint my attraction to "solving" this issue in my life (thus seeking out the problematic person to work it out with),  the part I played in this is clear.  Call it co-dependency (sounds about right), but I sought this.  I needed to learn something. I picked a very nasty "opponent" who would indeed provide me with all the external fuel for me to fight this inner battle.  If I had not had children with him, I would not be learning this with him....I would be doing it elsewhere. The lessons are there, waiting to be learned.  Learn it now, or learn it later.  It will still need to be learned, I will still need to resolve this.

That is why I can bless his (stinky, nasty) path as well as my own.  I am actually blessed to be learning this.  HE most likely won't learn, can't learn, even though he has the same opportunity we all do.  Oh well.  I still get to learn.....so in that, I understand the phrase "thank you enemies".

It doesn't really matter what part of our path we are on; awareness helps us see that we do make choices... that we can find out about this life and those choices. Awareness, and mindfulness of what we do and why helps us change and grow.

Knowing this does not mean my abuser is off the hook, or that my inviting this learning with him as a soul somehow diminishes his responsibilty for his bad behavoir.
It does, instead, empower ME.  When I realize that while I can't control others or circumstances, I can realize why they are presented to me, and what I can learn from them to become a better person.  I always have that choice.  It doesn't always mean I can't get mad, or even use my anger to grow and even right a "wrong".  But it does mean I have a choice to do this, and a choice to move through it, use it, or stay in it (anger for instance) for a while.

And I think you are right,  that is why people on this board even bother being here.  There is some level of awareness of it all.

thanks for allowing me to think out loud.  I know it's pretty much been said before, and much more beautifully, so this is not news to anyone.....

[longtire]

Resolution, sorry if I hijacked your thread.  Your posts really touched something in me and I just felt like I had to get it out.  Thanks, everyone, for your support and feedback!

longtire - A masterpiece! You've come a long way.

I credit the people here for their support, encouragement, discussion and opinions for helping me make this progress in a remarkably short period of time.

Sometimes when we encounter people who ARE nice, giving, warm, functional, we will PROVOKE them to act in the ways that we're accustomed to, so we can stay in that insulated codependent universe. It's an addiction with withdrawal symptoms when we start to give it up.

bunny, thanks for this warning of the road ahead.  I don't feel like I've started to reach out to people much in "real life" but will be watching myself for this when I do.  In my case, I already have a fear or expectation that I will somehow unconsciously "ruin" relationships if I act like myself.  I need to be aware of this and make sure that I don't turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Resolution]

Portia

My comment about being 'Inverted', was made because I think I started to mimic my N's behaviour. Her actions and ways of doing things kind of became normal and I'd replay these to others later on. Having been exposed for such time, I think this is normal. One picks up on things and uses the same tactics. It's like picking up the sword mans sword and swishing it about. Only they know really how to use it, only they can stick it in to someone.....especially with a smile upon their faces! You. you're just playing with it.

Longtire

I've read your post, again and again and it's very good. That we are pre- programmed in the manner you write, does bring an accepting nod as I sit before my screen. Have I learned enough in order to now avoid seeking relationships with....shall we say N people....very much so. But yes, you've very much struck a chord, so much so, please allow me to expand further.

My childhood was very religious, Irish Catholic, with strong indoctrination and intolarance of all else. Whilst pregnant with me, my mother had a brain tumor but refused to have it removed less it harmed me. So without medication, she progressed to term, then had her operation to remove the tumor. As time moved on, she contracted Cancer which eventually lead to her death when I was 13. Basically she'd been ill with one type of Cancer or another during my 13 years.

I am naturally an empathic person and as I've grown older, I've become more so. I am in no doubt as to the effects my mothers dying had upon this. Every Irish Catholic mother of that time, always wanted at least one priest in the family and I was the caring child, I was being groomed accordingly. There exists even still today, a certain degree of above normal innocience and nieveity about how I view things. This combined with my mothers death, how my father blamed me for this, plus my religious indoctrination, pre-dispossed me to what happened later with my N experience.  

No I couldn't stop my mother from dying and yes I've attempted to resolve this failing later in life. I would find myself drawn to difficult situations, mainly in business with companies in difficult straights. I found it both absorbing and satisfying if I, we, pulled them round. Although I hadn't realised what I was doing deep down inside, my exposure to my N released the lot.

I don't know whether individuals with NPD have an extra sense, an ability to smell people like me out, amongst the crowd. But I had a rather large, yet unseen to me; bullseye stamped upon my forhead! I was a marked man, but never knew it....until along came N. Now I don't blame her, because at the base of it all, she did me a favour! I say this because whilst it was a terrible experience for me, it lead to were I am today and me being free from what, unbeknown to me, I'd been carrying.

On the way in, she'd be offering me a constant stream of left or rights....forks in the road. It's only years later that I realised this. Yes she was the damsel in distress and yes I was riding upon my off white donkey! Yes I swooped her up and sped off at a snail's pace and yes I started to fix, in all innocience and nieveity, this poor done to person. It's a cliche I know, but I walked....no, ran full pelt into it!

I write the following in but a few sentences.....but it has much greater meaning as I shall try to explain. There came a point, a matter of weeks into the relationship, when something unbelievable happened. She had a young boy by another man and I was explaining one night that I didn't really want to run into a ready made family to quickly. To which she burst into tears and shortly after announced that she was going to adopt him out rather than loose me! I initially laughed it off.....until I realised she was being deadly serious! So much so that two days later, her Grand Parents turned up furious, to sort it out with her. She'd actually gone and told her parents of what she was going to do!

This was not the first, nor would it be the last, of exceptional statements she would make, totally unsolicited. She didn't come from a poor background and she'd been supported by her middle class family to the hilt. I had in no way talked with her about it save to mention what I had in passing. I suppose I was gently applying some breaks, just a dab. But in reacting the way she did, she really hit me like a Stinger, heat seeking, missile!

For you see, I was left again, with two choices. Remembering that I do believe in people and of my innocience and nieveity; ;I should have ran like hell, but didn't. My dilema was further complicated when several days later she broke down in further tears and announced that she'd already adopted a boy out at 16 when she fell pregnant. Not only was I even more stunned, my empathic nature moved to reasure and comfort her. She was nothing more than one of lifes many victims in my eyes.

There was no way I would even countenance any thought of her adopting any child out over me. So I moved quickly to scotch any such idea and also reasure her parents that it wasn't going to happen. In doing so, she played exactly to my weakness, she was naturally very manipulative. She'd expressed my importance to her and realed me in like the fish on the hook. In one move, not only was I much closer to her, I was now locked in, fool that I was!

The relationship developed around emotional love from me and a kind of logical love from her. The two are incompatible as anyway, one doesn't exist. But this statement aptly describes what followed. Essentially I was told exactly what she knew I'd believe and in doing so, she would manipulate out of me what she was really after. And as you've written Longtire, lie after lie and so on! So I believed what I wanted too.....needed too.....was programed too....and she recieved what she was really after.

The reasons why I've written the above is not out of anguish. It is as an attempt to perhaps reinforce what Longtire is correctly saying....but in more lay terms. The fact that I was very open to this form of exploitation, came as a shock to me later on. I shall not bore you with the twists and turns of what enfolded, I'm sure you've read them all before. But what really did surprise me......was the fact that at no time had I ever taken into consideration,what I'd experienced as a child! Never once had I realised the cross, my cross, that I mentally carried. It was bloody obvious that one day I'd become undone.....and I'm pleased it was sooner, rather than later.

I'm much more capable of controlling my emotions and far more savy as to how they can be manipulated. In the end andas I wrote earlier, she did me a favour.....but at a what cost!

[mum]

Resolution: I get it.
I also grew up Irish Catholic.  There were good parts to that aspect of my childhood, but I find I am undoing  a lot of the religious contaminations of spiritual truth (IMO) that I was indoctrinated with.
Your story about the girl....the adoption....unreal.  And no "good Catholic boy" that I knew would ever be able to make any other choice than what you did.
Feeling responsible for everyone's feelings seems to go to the quick of some more sentient children, and the Catholic doctrine can cause some real inner turmoil with this.  Your mother's health is an unfair burden for a child to take on, but completely understandable even if your father didn't add to it!
Your story is compelling, and your current path is as well.. I wish you the best.
(And yes, these "people" do smell blood in the water.)

[Anonymous]

Resolution, I'm so sorry that you lost your mom at such a young and critical age.  That must have been devistating for you.  Her whole life being one illness after another must have been very hard on you too.  It sounds like there was hardly a feeling of "normal" at home.

Re the death of your mother you wrote:

....how my father blamed me for this...

What?????????????  Your father blamed you for your mother's cancerous death?
So you not only lost your mother, but while in your despair, your father was emotionally ripping you appart too???

I'm so sorry for this.....that you had to endure it.        

How awful for you!  How backward and unfair of him to do to you!

You sound like you've come a long, long way from there.  Good for you!
That couldn't have been easy.

GFN