Cul de Sac

[d'smom]

hi plucky :}} i love your name.
I Hope things are feeling stronger for you today.. what a nasty thing to go through....   i cant add much to what everyone said but my feelng with your husband is this:

it might help to really steel yourself and think of him like a small child threatening to hold their breath until they die..... its highly unlikely he really wishes to damage himself fatally or seriously.. hes an adult, his survival instinct is there like anyones. imo its pretty likely he is doing most of this totaly for attention and to manipulate you emotionally......

what would you do with a little kid throwing  a tantrum? I would think most good parents would ignore it...... not buy into it.... not give it energy.... and let the child deal with the consequences of their own actions, til they figured out it wasnt the brightest way to deal with the situation......

i hope you can do therapy, certainly cannot hurt,  but it might be good to be ready for the idea that its just a delaying tactic from him and he doesnt really plan to change. hope this isnt the case but, it could be likely.

what i would really suggest as you begin to disentangle from this, is to begin to let him take the consequences of these self-harm actions on *himself*..... knowing their purpose is largely to try to manipulate you anyway.... and DOCUMENT.  i have sympathy for cutters but i think in this case hes using it to manipulate you.  everytime he throws a little fit with knives make sure *everyone* knows he did it himself, get it on record as many times as possible with everyone  you can, police even, hospital records, everyone, and get yourself a *notebook* or diary and document, every time. it will be invaluable when you come to court. get information from domestic violence shelters. they may suggest asking him to leave the house. you may qualify for a restraining order. people are not going to like it that he is doing this with little children around.

with a history of getting out knives anytime something goes wrong he will NEVER get your children. (and no court will ever split them up, thats insane)  but you *have* to document, and keep control of your own behvior in the meantime...
stay strong plucky. i have faith in you!!
d's mom

[Plucky]

Plucky: you are in this situation and yet you are so strong, popping in on the board to offer your strength and love to others....

Thank you mum.  I still respond to others because you all are responding to me, and saving and helping me, even when I think your situations are much more difficult and I am just being a crybaby.

And to be honest, to empathise with someone else makes my own issues loom less large.  So it is not altruistic!

Thank you everyone who responded.  I really needed that.
Still somewhat
Plucky

[d'smom]

oh, alternatively though, if you *do* truly believe he is truly suicidal, a case could be made for involuntary commitment.... which he probably would not want....

if you let him know clearly that if he does this again you are going to suggest he is locked up for his own safety (and yours), it may serve as a deterrant as well.
take care
d's mom

[Plucky]

I don't think he needs to be locked up.  I do think he needs help of some kind, and maybe a break to think things through.

Thanks for saying I am not responsible.  I will try to internalize that.
Not feeling very prolific here.  Maybe I'll have more guts to spill later.
Plucky (aka Draggy)

[Portia]

Hello Plucky, just wanted to say:

If you don't want to put up with your mom visiting, you don't have to.

If your mom vsiting will help you in any way, and you want it, fine.

If you don't want it, get rid of this additional worry. You don't need another worry now, you have enough to deal with.

I don't know if it would work, but could you use some words like?: "H and I are going through a very bad situation right now and we cannot deal with anyone visiting, so please don't visit. It's our problem and we don't want to involve anyone else."

Any reasonable person would respect a statement like that and stay away. And you could say that too.

And how are you? These are very testing and changing times. Take care of you please, we're all only human. best, P

[P]

PS Plucky:

even when I think your situations are much more difficult and I am just being a crybaby.

All situations are difficult BUT I see yours as a real opportunity for you and your H and your kids. The willingness to change the situation is everything. You are so willing to change! Do you know how fantastic that is? It is and your situation is very difficult, to me...

Here's a guess: were you allowed to be a crying baby? All we have is cries when we can't yet talk. Sometimes we need, even as adults, to be crybabies. I did/do and there's nothing wrong with it, if it's done in a safe setting, and with understanding about what we're crying about - our lost childhoods - rather than 'acting out' against others (you know that one and hey, it's over, no big deal?) or acting out against ourselves... I would guess your H is in great pain and cutting is his way of lessening that pain (btw did he do it privately, secretly? That would be the norm I think). As adults we are responsible for what we do and your H isn't an adult, as you say. He really isn't. You can treat him with detached kindness and compassion, but he's responsible for himself.

Anyway, getting side-tracked, what i wanted to stress is that you have equal rights here to tell your truth and ask for what you want (what you want, not just what you need, okay?). It sounds like you're alone with your responsibilities and you need to talk and listen. Please know that you are entitled and encouraged best, portia

[Plucky]

Thank you Portia.  Thank you for thinking about me, and my interests.  Thank you for extending comfort and support to me.  

If your mom vsiting will help you in any way, and you want it, fine.
...I don't know if it would work, but could you use some words like?: "H and I are going through a very bad situation right now and we cannot deal with anyone visiting..."  Any reasonable person would respect a statement like that and stay away. And you could say that too.

Ah yes.  But mom is a flaming N!  So I don't want to have to deal with  
1.  Her knowing anything is wrong here.  Hello nonstop advice (although she has had 2 failed marriages, and 1 long term failed relationship. she is still an expert on relationships.).  
2. My husband thinking I told anybody.  He is rabidly private.  
3.  My mother going over to my husband's side and going on about my shortcomings, which date back to birth.  Yes, it would happen.
4. My mother concluding that this is why something is "wrong" with my son.  Nothing is wrong with him, but she tells him he is an "unhappy child" and that we are mistreating him by not keeping his light on all night.
5.  My mom having a field day saying that we invited her and then threw her out.   I will never ever hear the end of it.

If I don't tell her what is happening, she will not stop until I cave in or change my phone number.  She will set my sister on me.    She will tell everyone we know.  She will offer all kinds of "help".

It's easier to pretend while she is here.   It's not like she is tuned in to anyone but herself!   Plus, the kids like her visiting, at least for a few days.

Here's a guess: were you allowed to be a crying baby?

How did you figure that out, all-seeing all-knowing Portia?   I was not.  As an infant I was looked after by my paternal grandmother while my mother spent half the week out of town.  Since I was not supposed to have been born, I was certainly not supposed to make any noise.  As a young child I remember crying myself to sleep and just wishing someone would comfort me.  When I was single I thought that if I got married at least I would have someone to hold me when I cried.  Still waiting for a safe place to cry (this board is it for me, actually).

rather than 'acting out' against others (you know that one and hey, it's over, no big deal?)

I hope so.  I hope so.  I have been able to back off from unappropriate anger many times since my big blow out.   My kids are starting to open up like little flowers.

I would guess your H is in great pain and cutting is his way of lessening that pain (btw did he do it privately, secretly? That would be the norm I think).

I don't know if or how many times he cut himself privately.  The first time I saw it he let me see and he told me.    The second time he woke me up and asked me to put something on his arm so he could drive himself to the emergency hospital.  

...what I wanted to stress is that you have equal rights here to tell your truth and ask for what you want (what you want, not just what you need, okay?). It sounds like you're alone with your responsibilities and you need to talk and listen. Please know that you are entitled and encouraged  best,

Thank you for this permission to bore everyone silly with my rantings!  And I will.   It may sound flippant but I am really touched and this makes me feel good.   I'm not good at responding to acceptance and encouragement, when it comes to these topics.  Thank you again to everyone who has allowed me to start unwinding my fetters.

An inarticulate, blubbering
Plucky

[mum]

Plucky.... I notice that you really are tough on yourself.  You are not inarticulate at all.. Your writing is very easy to understand, and you write beautifully.
If you are guilty of whining or boring us  here with your problems, then you are part of a very big club of boring whiners!!  That's what friends are for. I don't notice that you are one sided in your postings. As a matter of fact you were helping others out while you were managing your own pain, and then very self effacingly said it wasn't completely altruistic of you, as you got something from it as well.
Well, your in a HUGE club with that one.  When we help each other we always help ourselves. That's the design of life....we are all in this together.
So if you feel the need to wear a hair shirt sometimes, that's ok.....just wanted you to know, it's not necessary. You are an amazing soul.
What you are learning right now through this struggle is emmense... and you can be compassionate with yourself. I think that is what you need more than anything.  .....No mom to comfort your tears, how awful.....but YOU get to comfort yourself and be kind to yourself now. That's what you are learning to do.
You deserve that love ....give yourself that break. I do.  I think you are doing soooo well considering your current situation. Situations change.....loving souls remain loving. You will be ok.

Trust yourself. You will know what to do.  You need not second guess yourself anymore.  Tune into what you want out of life, follow your heart and stay true to yourself.  You will not only survive, but you will prosper.

((((((Plucky))))))

[Plucky]

Oooooh mum.  I think I love you.  Thank you for all the wonderful affirmations.   Thank you for being my friend.  

My husband left for out of town today.  Later on, my 4 year old found one of those box cutters on the floor in our room.  Luckily the 6 year old got it and brought it to me.

Now what was it doing there?  Now that I think about it, why do we even own one of those?  Oh God.

Was he going to pack it and dropped it?  Was it in a convenient place to use?  My mind is whirling and I don't know whether to worry about our safety.  

My H did say he made an appointment with the therapist.  I asked for the name and told him I was going to phone.  I want to make sure he is going and that the T knows he cuts himself.

Not at all
Plucky

[mum]

Plucky.  How awful, finding another sharp item (even more so that your child did).
How about finding and removing all knives, razors, etc from your home in his absence. Buy him an electric shaver.  Keep only the most necessary kitchen sharps  and put them at your neighbor's or in a locked tool box.  
I sound nutty, I know.....but you may need to send a hard core message to him....and this might be a way to do it.  Just a thought...

If I had an alcoholic in the house I would do my best to keep alcohol out of the house.....(well actually, I just got rid of the alcoholic!!...and ironically, there hasn't been alcohol in my house since then).

Don't know if that's even practical....but knives seem to be an issue, no?
 

I do think you are amazing.... so should you!!!

[Plucky]

I think I will move out most of the sharp knives.  I am feeling a bit nervous.
Should I mention to H that my son found the box cutter or not?   I will mention it if I get a chance to speak to the therapist.
Thanks again.
Plucky

[Portia]

Morning Plucky how are you?

Why do we connect more with some posts, some people? Shared ways of thinking, similar experiences, perhaps similar personalities I guess. You said you tested out as INTJ as do I, and your posts bear that out – very thoughtful as opposed to ‘feeling’ and so on. You’re most welcome to any words from me, but like you, it’s not pure altruism: when we help others, we help ourselves. If I tell my story, make myself vulnerable, it may help others who think/feel in a similar way. I have felt so exceptionally grateful, grovellingly grateful to folks here – to the extent of wondering why do they want to help me? Because after all – I’m not worth it am I?? Suspicion can start – what are ‘they’ after from me….and paranoia kicks in. Then I would start to mis-read words on the screen and imagine there were people trying to undermine me…

It was all in my head. Mostly it’s all in our heads that dictates how we think, feel and react to others. The parents in our head, the partners in our heads (our view of them): if we change what’s in our heads, we think and much more importantly, feel differently too. Simple eh <compassionate irony laugh>. Hard work, very hard work! Lots of it too and it doesn’t stop but once you’re on the road, are you going to stop? No   no no no!

You deserve to be thought about. Just as much as anyone and everyone. It’s not something you earn, it simply is. You are free to not ‘owe’ anyone anything here and you are free to take what is offered. Is it difficult to take and not feel obligated in return? It was/is very difficult for me. I hadn’t ‘got’ the notion of mutual respect and reciprocal relationships. I’m getting it now…slowly. There’s still a tiny voice that says “I’m not worth it!” and I tell the various parents in my head to “shut up!” because I get to decide that now. Not their voices in my head.

I’m glad if I say something to help but pleeeeaase, I’m not omniscient. I wouldn’t be here. When I joined this board in Dec 03, I knew next-to-nothing – I knew I was going potty. I wanted to know what was wrong with my mother and what it meant. Recognising thinking and feelings from the past and how we use them now, inappropriately, is what helps us change I think.

Sorry, this sounds to me like a lecture. I don’t mean it to. I’m just passionate about the subject!

About the Mother Visit. Will it be easier to put up with than not? I can see your reasoning and from what you say, I agree with you on the practical side (the hassle of outside interference that could escalate) – and I know what it’s like to have a very private H, mine’s the same, it drives me a bit nuts but I try to keep his stuff private, if not mine. Tricky! Anyway, your reasons make sense to me, as long as it doesn’t take an equally destructive toll on you when she does visit. I’ve got fed up with being strong and capable all the time, so I just say ‘no’ sometimes now. The sky doesn’t fall in. I say I’m depressed or not up to it, and I find that narcissistic types don’t like that, unless they can work out some way to use it to their direct advantage. They can feel superior of course (so what?) or they can try and meddle but if I behave ‘badly’ enough (stick to saying no), they won’t risk being humiliated by me (turned away from the door). They don’t risk humiliation. Unless they’re on the psychotic side.

How about when she visits, tell us here what happens to keep you grounded in some reality. And to let your feelings out too. For the record, I think your mother is intolerable, but then my tolerance levels have changed!

Since I was not supposed to have been born, I was certainly not supposed to make any noise. As a young child I remember crying myself to sleep and just wishing someone would comfort me.

Is that one of your earliest memories?  Do you know just how sad it is and how cruel it is? (((((((((little girl Plucky))))))))) You have the right to exist (fact) and you have the right to expect comfort and respect (fact).

My kids are starting to open up like little flowers.

  Great! Wonderful! How is it showing? Want to talk about them?

H cutting: it’s not your responsibility and it’s not your job, okay? But if you want to know for yourself perhaps why and what’s behind it here’s one factsheet:
http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+self-harm.htm

I bet that link makes the page go w...i...d...e….

Keep posting!

[Portia]

ooopsie wide page    sorreeee need lots more posts to flip to the next page now....bye for now, P

[Anonymous]

((((((((Plucky)))))))

Just want you to know that I'm here with you and that I agree with others here who have said that you are worthy of love...of loving yourself....of expressing your thoughts, feelings, wants, needs and that you deserve to be honoured and respected, and that you a part of a team (I like to think of all of us as a sort of "team" who are taking on the challenge of dealing with our individual difficulties, while supporting eachother/cheering eachother on ) (my fantasy/reality..heehee).

In the book, "Why is it always about you?", which I am in the process of reading, Sandy Hotchkiss gives some good suggestions in regard to dealing with parents who behave like N's.  One thing she suggests is that we embrace reality:

"Another way to embrace reality is to create a mantra for yourself with the following message:  "There is nothing I can do to change my narcissistic parent.  I can never be perfect or pleasing enough to win his or her unconditional or consistent love.  His or her inability to love and respect me has nothing to do with my value as a human being.  The more I cling to my idealized fantasies of becoming perfect and having and ideal parent, the more I hurt myself.  I will seek to discover my own uniqueness and to connect with people who are capable of recognizing me and accepting me for who I am.  I am worthy of the love my parent was unable to give me."

You are doing a great job of the suggestions in that mantra, really, Plucky!  You really sound like you are letting go of fantasies and doing your best to accept your imperfections (maybe a little hard on yourself??).  I think you may be trying very hard to discover your own uniqueness, I hope so, and you are definately connecting with people who are accepting you.  You are trying to internalize your own worthiness, as you have said this, but it is a challenge.  Keep going!  You're doing a great job so far!!

More from Sandy's book:  "....you are entitled to set your own priorities without being manipulated by those who feel their claim on you should supersede all others......try to come to decisions about what you will and won't tolerate from your parent before situations arise.  Do whatever is necessary to protect yourself and know that you have a right to do this.  Then whatever you decide to do, do it as nondefensively as you can."

I think the word "husband" could be substituted for the word "parent" here, as necessary,  without a whole lot of fuss.  This advice seems like it may be applicable to a lot of us, who have been manipulated by others, who have had our priorities and decisions dictated to us by others, possibly sometimes, who have not had the skills to protect ourselves from N behaviour, and who have felt/or might even still feel defensive for whatever mechanisms we have used/do use to cope.

If you need to cry, it's ok.  We are now a shoulder for you to lean on.  What I hear coming from your posts is compassion.  You seem like a very compassionate person who is trying very hard to consider everyone's needs, your husband's included.  I can highly relate to that desire and I believe you can do that too, if that's what you choose to do.  I'm very glad he has an appointment with a T.  Hopefully, the T will help him.  It's generous of you to put your kids desires securely in the equation.

However, Sandy's suggestions remind us all to take care of us too.  To work on setting limits and boundaries, to claim our own space,  to be intolerant of stuff we choose and not to tolerate, to recognize and deflect manipulation, to choose what's important to us and to ask for it, with respect, and then enforce our wishes calmly, in a detached way, that does not defeat us, or hurt others...including those who behave nish.

So......if your mother must visit, please take care of you.  Enjoy a nice, lesurely walk, on your own, if need be.  Take naps.  Keep some distance, when you need it and try to remind yourself that you are looking after you, not using her.  It will be necessary to help yourself through the visit. See if Sandy's suggestions make sense to you and if you can decide some things ahead of time and plan for them.

Sandy also suggests, which I can't seem to find the page at this moment,  something like quiet, nonreation (not her words) but the basic idea is to ignor our urge to react, while trying to remain indifferent to the N's behaviour/manipulations/demands.  I guess this is not easy to do but with practice, could turn out to be a very good thing.

Hoping some of this helps even a little.

GFN

[Plucky]

Hi everyone.
I feel so grateful for your help.  I feel that maybe I'm not grateful enough and it might go away and I need it so much.  I know you all keep telling me not to feel that way and you are right.  I just feel that there is a well of unworthiness and I have to cry it out until it is empty.  And then I won't be afraid.

I went to the dentist today.  I was so afraid.  Last time I went years ago he made me go through drilling of 2 teeth without anesthetic (a different dentist).  It was more painful than natural childbirth.  Then I remembered that when I went into labor with my second child, my mother was staying with us at the time and wanted to start an argument.  She was angry that I was cutting the argument short to go to the hospital to give birth!  I got there too late for the normal anesthetic.  

My H is coming back today.  It is so nice when he is gone.  I feel better getting this out, although I know it is a bit disjointed.  I had 4 minutes to cry, now I have to go pick up my son and not look sad to the teacher.  Wouldn't want her thinking his home life is not good.
Anything but
Plucky