worried about my therapist again

[Bloopsy]

 

[Bloopsy]

Sallying Forth, would you mind telling me a little more about your therapist/ what went on or how you dealt with it-- anything that does not make you uncomfortable?? I really have become dependant on her but now I don't trust anything with that anymore. Maybe it will start to sink in. I admit that I feel really used and manipulated and like I have sort of  lost the last four years of my life with her even though at the same time she has helped me so much.

[Marta]

I really have become dependant on her but now I don't trust anything with that anymore. Maybe it will start to sink in. I admit that I feel really used and manipulated and like I have sort of  lost the last four years of my life with her even though at the same time she has helped me so much.

Bravo!!!!!!You go girl...........

Identification and admission of a problem is half the battle won. What I really like about it is that rather than taking on all the blame on yourself or just trying to figure out her behavior, you are finally expressing your own feelings about all this.

Tough as the going may be for you right now, hang in there.........Me thinks you have taken a great leap!

Marta

[amethyst]

(((Bloopsy)))

That comment about your shirt was unprofessional, cruel and uncalled for. You are not delusional.

I can think of about only three instances where appearance might come up. One would be where someone is dressing provacatively and wonders why men keep hitting on her. The second would be if someone was terribly dishevelled and had body odor and wondered why people seemed to avoid her. The third might be if someone who has never worked needed advice for dressing appropriately for a job interview. In all three cases, tactful discussion, not negative judgement, would be in order. 

I don't think that you have lost or wasted the last four years of your life though. It sounds as if you have gained enough health and perspective to be at the point of graduation from this particular therapist.

[Sallying Forth]

A therapeutic relationship can never be a friendship. That is crossing a boundary.

I have to disagree with this.  I consider my therapist a very good friend and that aspect of the relationship has been very helpful to my healing process.  It has never been inappropriate, nor has he crossed any boundaries or ever made me uncomfortable.  I firmly believe that when our professional relationship is finished, that we will remain lifelong friends.  I have never felt like I was paying to have a friend.

I admit to having very limited experience with therapy and perhaps in most cases they shouldn't be friends, but maybe the term "never" is too strong.

Brigid

Hi Brigid,
Let me clarify, developing a friendship DURING the psychotherapeutic relationship is never acceptable.

http://www.advocateweb.org/hope/boundariesinrelationships.asp Boundaries in Professional Relationships

Excerpt from article:
Social Involvement Scale, which included the following items:

Became friends with client after termination

Disclosed details of your current personal stresses to a client.

Invited clients to an office/clinic open house

Went out to eat with a client after a session

Invited clients to a personal party or social event

Borys (1988) also found considerable variability within the psychotherapy fields (psychology, social work, psychiatry) as to what is deemed acceptable in a number of areas. For example, therapists' responses to the following boundaries questions yielded the following very varied opinions:

Accept a gift under $ 10: 19.5% never, 53% several, 10.4% all clients

Accept invitation to client's special event: 50% never, 22% few, 3.4% some

Becoming friends after termination: 65% never, 23% few, 3.3% several clients

Treating an employee: 57% never, 12.8% few, 3% some clients

Disclose own stresses to client: 59% never, 26.8% few, 9.7% some, 1.3% many

Invite to open house: 50% never, 5.7% few, 6.7% some, 2.7% many, 3.4% all

Depending on the school of therapy one belongs to a particular boundary may be more or less important. For a behaviorist to visit a client's home to perform an en-vivo desensitization may be quite proper, whereas for a psychoanalyst to make a home visit might be a boundary crossing.

he Zone of Helpfulness

In the 1950's and 1960's concern was about genuineness, warmth, and "connecting with the client." Researcher's studied these things and their impact on therapy and counseling. By the mid-1970's into the 1980's the concerns were about intrusiveness, exploitation, and abuse -- all seen as a consequence of over-involvement. Studies have shown that either extreme can be harmful.

Zone of Helpfulness Range From:

Distant/cold/formal/aloof
My therapist didn't care.
I should have left therapy.
I never felt support or caring.

To:

Intrusive/over-involved
My therapist tried to run my life.
My therapist had sex with me.
My therapist wanted to be my mentor.


The key is to be somewhere in the Zone of Helpfulness, whether one tends to be more formal, or one tends to be more emotionally involved or in greater physical contact.

Excessive self-disclosure is the single most common precursor to therapist-client sex:

Disclosing current personal needs or problems;
Disclosure as common, rather than rare event, during sessions;
Disclosing things not clearly connected to client's problems or experiences; or not clearly things which would be likely to encourage or support client;
Self-disclosure not only frequent, but uses up more than a few minutes in a session;
Self-disclosure occurs despite apparent client confusion or romantization.

For Colleagues or Supervisors (Psychotherapists)

Some areas which require watchfulness are:
Obvious therapist distress or upset
Therapeutic drift -- shifting style and approach to a given client
Lack of goals and reflection on progress in therapy
Therapy which exceeds normal length for a client of that type in the particular therapist's practice.
Exceeding areas of competence, reluctance to refer for other therapy, assessment, etc.

Unwise techniques:
Routine hugs
Face to face, intimate hugs
Excessive touch
Sessions in non-traditional setting when this isn't necessary
Adult clients on lap
Routine or common socializing with clients
Excessive self-disclosure by therapist
Direct intervention in client's life
Becoming enmeshed in client's life -- treating close friends or family members

Unique vulnerabilities:
Attraction
Over-identification with client
Uniquely similar family dynamics
Divorce or loss in therapist's life
Identity disturbance in therapist

[Sallying Forth]

http://www.advocateweb.org/hope/codesofethics.asp

I thought I would post this too. It lists codes of ethics for:
psychotherapists
social workers
doctors
lawyers
pastoral counselors
marriage and family therapists
sociologists
Canadian Mental Health Association
Respiratory Therapists
Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Counselors
Certified Counselors
clergy

This is mainly for the U.S.

[Sallying Forth]

http://www.aamft.org/resources/LRMPlan/Ethics/ethicscode2001.asp

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy Web Site Ethics Code.

[vunil]

Thanks for those ethics posts-- it was helpful to me to read them, both in my own profession and in professional relationships.

I agree that feeling friendly toward a therapist is good-- but being actual friends is potentially quite harmful.  Maybe not always always, but it just seems like a dangerous boundary to cross.

Bloopsy, can you possibly broach all of this with her, carefully?  Then post here if you feel like it?  It would be easier to tell what is happening if we knew her reaction to your concerns-- if her reaction is in any way defensive or manipulative or (worst) if she denies what you are feeling, then you have your answer-- run away.   

I worry that she talks about herself in therapy.  In my experience, that is rare, and only happens when the client is basically saying "no one feels the way I do" or "what I am feeling/doing is abnormal" or if the client asks directly about the therapist's experience (perhaps as a role model type deal).  And that would just be one little anecdote or whatever (e.g., others do feel that way; I have felt that way myself on xyz occasion).  If the therapist is volunteering personal stories in a sort of friendly give and take like people have over a beer, then.... yuck.  That is completely inappropriate.  She is asking for something from her client-- a BIG no-no and potentially really harmful to the victim of past N behavior.

I think it's possible that finding the voice to really discuss this with her might be the most therapeutic part of the therapy thus far, whether you leave or not. 

[Bloopsy]

    these are some things that are really disturbing to me--- in therapy. 
List of weird boundary invasions in my therapy
1. she lets me attend a course she teaches for free
2. she talks about her relationship with her husband with me.
3. We exchange little gifts.
4. She has said that she loves me.
5. THerapy takes place in her house, with her bed prominently visible.
5. She has commented on my appearance, and I know that she she has said she thinks I am pretty and has also said that my recent  weight loss"looks good" . This makes me feel uncomfortable especially because I know that she does not think that she is pretty she has told me that.
6. I remember that early on she warned me not to do things the way that other people do them because I was trying to find myself-- that was her response when i felt inspired by another woman burning insence while she cleaned and said that I was going to do that--- I felt that this was discouraging. She later went on to tell me all about how SHE does things, including some of the ways that she "got " her relationship with her husband, when I did not even ask. 
7.   Vunil, I talked to her yeterday. I told her that it was not good for me when she self discloses or talk about her other clients during my session. She said okay she would not do that anymore. I felt a sense of relief like finally my therapy would be just about me, and not her and me with her issues mixed in with mine til I felt like they were blurred and nuts . I felt a lot more separate, but wondered what we would talk about.  tThen she went against her word a few minutes later to tell me about her other client who  would always ask her questions about herself( my therapist) , and that she did not tell that other client about herself because she could tell that that other client was trying to make her into a mother that way. Previously in our session  I had told her that my inner children would miss hearing about her, and her response was that they could always ask her questions.  She has no children of her own. Later I realised that she had done the exact thing I had told her was unhealthy for me about 5 minutes later or so. I talked to her again and was really angry. She admitted that she had "f---ed up" . She said that that was so much a part of her "style" that she did not know if she would be able to stop it right away but said that she would not be hurt if I kept calling her on it because she knows who she is and has a good sense of self and is not trying to turn me into her. hmmm.
8. She wanted to treat my twin sister.
I do not know if this is as horrible as it seems to me which it seems that I have ben serving a big giant need of hers for five long years.
Thank you for listening the top half of my post is deleted --- it was too icky. I talked to her about it and that was really confusing Vunil. That is what happened on number 7.
9. She encouraged me to do my rage work by pounding on a pillow, on her bed.
10. She discouraged me from giving gifts to others, or being giving in general. That was called codependance. She encouraged me to make drawings for her.  I was not supposed to do things for anyone else because that was codependant. I have come to be very withholding, under the impression that that was healthier. but it does not feel healthier, but am going to change that now.  She is the only person who I have made or bought a gift for in quite a long time and that makes me feel really icky. I used to make gifts for people a lot and I really miss that. 
This is an edited post, I apologize for my other long and confusing posts. Thank you for all the encouragement and information and stuff.  I feel like it helps me with this icky problem a lot.
After I confronted her about doing that thing where she said that she would no longer make MY therapy about her or her other clients, and then five minutes later she was back to that, she seemed to compensate for whatever rift in the relationship by starting to say "we"when she means either me, or her or everyone I don't know. She used to do that all the time and now I guess she is picking it up again in order to blur the lines between us again. I know in my heart that I amnot lying.I would really appreciate anything you guys may think of theset things Love Bloopsy rose.

[Bloopsy]

well I guess it is pretty obvious that something is really really wrong. I guess I wonder how to handle it or recover from this, but know that I will. LoveB

[Brigid]

Sally,

Hi Brigid,
Let me clarify, developing a friendship DURING the psychotherapeutic relationship is never acceptable.

Thank you for clarifying.  I'm sure he would agree and would never suggest a "friendly encounter" while he was still seeing me professionally.  My therapist is also the head priest of an Episcopal church in the area that I'm strongly considering joining as I think I will be leaving the Catholic church (which I converted to for my ex) now that my children are finished with the sacraments.  I have heard from members of that parish what a wonderful priest he is, but I have not as yet checked it out. 

Bloopsy,

Hearing you describe what your T has asked of you, required of you, etc., is disturbing.  If I was in your shoes, I would be very uncomfortable.  Good for you to find your voice and use it.  Hold your ground and don't let her manipulate you.  Now that you are stronger, perhaps you can go in search of a new therapist who can bring you to the next level of healing.  I wish you well.

Blessings,

Brigid

[October]

A therapeutic relationship can never be a friendship. That is crossing a boundary.

I have to disagree with this.  I consider my therapist a very good friend and that aspect of the relationship has been very helpful to my healing process.  It has never been inappropriate, nor has he crossed any boundaries or ever made me uncomfortable.  I firmly believe that when our professional relationship is finished, that we will remain lifelong friends.  I have never felt like I was paying to have a friend.

I admit to having very limited experience with therapy and perhaps in most cases they shouldn't be friends, but maybe the term "never" is too strong.

Brigid

I thought that with my first therapist, and he hurt me really badly.  I hope you do not experience the same kind of thing, but be careful, just in case.  In some ways it depends what you mean by friend.  The t should be an ally, but other than that, there is little to have in common with any other friendship, imo.

The idea now of having a 'lifelong friendship' with a therapist would be a very scarey one to me.

Therapy cannot be friendship because the power balance is wrong.  All the power is with the therapist, wheras in friendship it is mutual and shared.  The same goes for the direction of the therapy.

And a further dynamic is that of incest.  Where the therapist oversteps the mark, there are incestuous overtones, because the relationship is one parallel to that of parent: child.

A final aspect would be that of discrepancy of intimacy.  He knows everything about you; you know very little about him.  To redress this balance would be inappropriate.  To maintain it would not be friendship, which involves mutual sharing of knowledge, and a similar mutual level of intimacy, imo.

Sorry, not thinking very well today.  That kind of thing.   

[Awen]

Yesterday I had an intake session to start therapy for possible PTSD.  The therapist assigned to me is a lovely lady and very friendly.  She told me that, due to the type of abuse I am seeking therapy for (my X is a cop and likely has full blown NPD)  it was important that she *NOT* come across to me as an authority figure.  This surprised me indeed, but she explained (in my own words as my memory for the meaning is better than that for the exact words) that the last thing I needed was any further exposure to feeling I might be regarded as "less" than someone else.  The truth is, we ARE peers and she could come to me for my professional services as I have come to her for hers - and we have no reson to be on anything other than friendly and equal terms.  She further explained that she is very much a feminist and believes in equality, and that we are entering into a partnership of sorts where she will learn from me (she is working toward her Ph.D) and I will learn from her.  It does seem that we could indeed develop a friendship outside of the theraputic relationship, though out of respect, I would not push for a genuine close friendship during the therapy period... until then, perhaps a close acquaintainship and friendly interest?

[Bloopsy]

Ariel,I think that you really need to  make sure with yourself that the things that she is sharing with you actually are helping, and not designed to elevete her or make her the center of the therapy in ANY way??

[Brigid]

October,
I appreciate your words of caution and I know you have had some very difficult experiences with therapists in the past. It is hard for me to put into words the exact feelings that I have for and about my T, and I know that if I said how I really feel, it would be met some with some strong criticism from members of this board.  This is my only long-term therapeutic experience.  I know I would not have stuck with it if I had not been totally comfortable from day one, felt safe and cared for.  My T and I have a great caring for each other in a brother-sister (probably more likely father-daughter in my case) kind of way.  He watched my life unravel before his eyes as he was trying to save my marriage, and he has made it his goal to put the pieces back together.  I have said before that if I could no longer afford his services, he would continue to see me for free.  Because of his religious background in addition to PhD in Psychology, he has helped me to bring God more actively into my life, which has also been very helpful in healing. 

This probably makes you uncomfortable, October, and I can understand that based on your past experiences.  I can assure you that there has never been a hint of impropriety in the 2 years I have been seeing him and I am at a very healthy place now and would be capable of recognizing that.  He has brought me to such an understanding of the affects of my FOO and how that affected my choice of life partners.  He is so happy for my happiness right now.

I could go on and on, but essentially, I am just very grateful to this man for giving me my life back.  I know I could not have done it without his guidance and would have ended up repeating the same mistakes I have made in the past.  Maybe we can't ever truly be friends.  That concept makes me sad, but I guess it remains to be seen.  I have never felt an imbalance in our power structure even though, as you say, he knows much more about me than I know about him.  He is a consumate professional, so I will take my lead from him as to how our relationship will continue at the conclusion of therapy, if at all.

Brigid