Codependence + enmeshment and the N parent

[Dazed1]

Hi Everyone,

I’ve been wondering about this:  If one is codependent, enabling and enmeshed with a parent, does that indicate that the parent was an N?

My story:  My parents are dead.  I only became aware that I enmeshed with my mother and was codependent/enabling with her after she died.  I believe I enmeshed with my mother because I did not want her to feel her pain.

In retrospect my mother (& father) had some N tendencies: I was a voiceless child, parents told me what my feelings were, they were verbally and emotionally abusive, they hit me.

But, my parents could be loving, caring, supportive.

My parents were Jekyl & Hyde.  They often made me feel unsafe as a child because I couldn’t be sure whether they would be Jekyl or Hyde.

So, my question is:  Are codependent, enmeshed children (ie: child enmeshes with parent and is codependent/enabling with parent) a sign that the parent has N tendencies OR can non-N parents raise codependent, enmeshed children?

Thank you.

Dazed

PS:  I want to express my deep gratitude to Dr. Grossman for fixing the board.  I missed you all.  When the board was down, I felt like a woman without a country.

[Sela]

Dear Dazed:

I don't know the answer to your question but I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry that you had to go through all you did as a child, that your parents treated you the way they did, and I'm glad that they could be lovng, caring and supportive, at least some of the time.

The Jekyl and Hyde stuff must have been very confusing for you and I would imagine the whole thing would create a lot of anxiety? 

Your question almost sounds like you're asking whether your parents were N's or simply crappy parents?  Is it Nness that causes enmeshment/codependance or is it parenting style type of thingy?

My guess is, it doesn't really matter that much.  The pain it produces is the same.  Sorry for that pain Dazed. 

Sela

[Gaining Strength]

Dazed, I am not an expert and am only offering my opinion.

But I believe that you did not enmesh with your mother but it was your mother who enmeshed with you.  As an adult she had a responsibility to nurture you and protect you.  She most probably had not been nurtured and protected as a child, herself and therefore lacked the capacity to provide those essentials for you and instead tried to get love and nurturing from you. 

That is so completely backwards and is one source of becoming enmeshed with a child - she tried to live her life through you.

My late husband was enmeshed with his son from a previous marriage.  It was really a Jekyll and Hyde experience.  He could not let his son grow up and take responsibility for himself and he ended up using his son in a very damaging way - not out of hate - he loved his son immensely but he could not parent because he was far too wounded.

Perhaps those parents who enmesh all have N tendencies because it is certainly not ever in the child's interest.  Though I am ignorant on the N portion of your inquiry.  Hope you get helpful responses. - GS

[penelope]

hi dazed,

I can relate to what you have come to know about your parent - that they were less than ideal.  Whether your mom was N or not, I'm not sure by your description.  Do you think she empathized with you?  Was there a child she couldn't empathize with?  Cause in my family, my mother certainly empathized, but it was all reserved for her "favorite."  I did not receive this same treatment, sadly.

I so relate to what you've described as my own parents could be fiercely loyal - at least that's how they appeared, anyway. 

For example:  I remember as a child once coming home from softball practice and crying because I was put in the outfield when I wanted to play 2nd base.  Mom or Dad, I don't remember which (they are both unreasonable), called the coach and "ripped them a new one," basically.  Anyway, this was not done in my best interest, I don't think, because it only made things worse for me.  At the next practice, the coach was so mad that she proceeded to "make an example out of me," and decided to embarrass me in front of the whole team.  She sarcastically announced (very meanly, I remember) that someone had complained that they couldn't play 2nd base, and that their parents had called her...  Next thing I know, I'm playing 2nd base again.  Well, even though she didn't name names, it was obvious who's parents had complained, and I was made to feel guilty for their bad actions.  I believe both the coach and my parents acted irresponsibly.  It was all a power play on the adults' part, I was just their pawn.  As far as my parents' motivation: they always felt their kids should get anything they thought we - meaning "our family" - deserved - cause we were so entitled and special, better than everyone else.

   *sigh*  I remember hating this when I was a kid.  I just wanted to be like everyone else.  I just wanted to be "normal."

In any case, I learned not to complain too loudly.  On the upshot, it sometimes came in handy, having raving lunatics for parents...  Lots of people didn't mess with me.

One time in highschool I remember being accused of plagiarizing a paper - I was so upset I ran out of the room crying and did not go back to class that day.  Later, when I went home, I told my parents what happened.  Since my Dad had observed me writing the paper, he knew I wrote it - also, I don't think there was any question that I could write in his mind - and I didn't have to plagiarize.  My Dad was so upset, he called a meeting with the teacher, the principal and I - and to make a long story short - again, someone was "ripped a new one".     In that case, I felt sort of like justice had prevailed.   But it set a bad example for me, on how to deal with conflict.  oh dear..

hugs,
bean

[Stormchild]

Bean - what do you think your father would have done, if you had left the game, gone home, and told your parents that the coach deliberately humiliated you and retaliated against you because of your parents' having contacted her?

That coach was a bully, and she should have been fired.

There is no such thing as 'conflict' where bullies are involved, unfortunately. There is limit setting, and limit enforcement. There is no such thing as 'negotiating' because bullies do not respect limits unless forced to, and have nothing but contempt for negotiation, since they have no intention of honoring any agreement - again, unless forced.

Usually the effort it costs to maintain surveillance on a bully, once identified, in order to keep them from acting out vindictively, is not worth it; whenever there is any chance to get rid of one, that is the best course of action to take. Preferably with a glow in the dark label tied to their tails or tattooed on their foreheads.

I'm not defending your parents, here. I've seen plenty of inappropriate emotional force used against people when it was not necessary. OTOH, it sounds as though your coach definitely earned a colostomy without benefit of anesthetic.

You can be grateful that you were not her child, at any rate, although that is small comfort....

[Kelly As Guest]

Dazed:  My mother is a classic N and I was raised to be codependent and we are totally enmeshed.  I didn't know any different.  For years I just thought it was normal to have a parent who made me feel guilty, dependent, etc.   I had no idea that it was wrong.  For years I knew I was frustrated but didn't think it was not right.  Now I KNOW it is wrong and am making strides to break the codendency and enmeshment.  Here's one.  Yesterday I had a job interview and I came in late to work.  My mom said "I heard you had an appointment?"  And I said, "Yes." and changed the subject.  In the past I would have felt obligated to explain where I had been - no more - it is none of her business.  However, my nmom would never had gone in and defended me in anyway.  The teacher was the authority figure so was not to be questioned.  I was bullied by some authority figures in my life and NEVER defended.

[Gaining Strength]

However, my nmom would never had gone in and defended me in anyway.  The teacher was the authority figure so was not to be questioned.  I was bullied by some authority figures in my life and NEVER defended.

I completely identify with this.  This happened to me over and over by both parents as a child and as an adult.  I actually was struggling with an incident today that happened almost 20 years ago.  It came up because my mother is going to an annual party given by some people that we got to know at the same time in the same small group.  It was a 4 year church program and after the four years my mother and a few others continued the group but did not include me.  One of the group was a priest who was the original leader.  His wife is having the party today - it is for his ministry (campus not church) and my mother has been a guest for many years but not me.  It is so amazing that I still feel the pangs of that rejection - not so much from the hosts but from my mother.

Kelly - I am so glad that you will no longer be working with her.  This will be an important beginning for you.  While you work with her you are still trapped in that original enmeshment because you are dependent on her by virtue of being her employee.  I pray freedom for you and swift insight to the way she has bound you to her.

[kelly as guest]

Well, at the job interview he told me he had lots of candidates...........he lifted up a stack of at least 10 applicants..............he asked me some of those "canned" questions that are like............."name a time when you made a wrong decision and had to admit to it and correct the problem..................and what was the "take away" from that?..............................Hate those kinds of questions.  Anyway, apparently they will be able to weed out the bad ones and come up with a top three or something like that.  So hopefully I will win out and get the job.  And you know?  This may sound weird but I kinda think I will be able to lose weight if I am not working with her - the reason I say that is that I feel trapped working with her and it is like prison and it is so futile that I am almost self defeating in everyway while I am there.  If I get this job and am able to work at a job where nmom is NOT a factor, it will be like a freedom to be ME!!!

I feel pretty good about this and hope it works out = but just in case, I applied for another job that looked good to me.  I am all about finding THE job for me where the situation will be better not worse.  There have been a couple of jobs where the alternative of what I have would be worse - so I have stayed!!!!!

It will be a beautiful beginning for me!!  I am psyched and cannot wait!!  If I get this you will be able to feel my joy!!

[gratitude28]

Dazed,
I think the biggest question for you is, "How is this affecting my life NOW." How can you use the information you have put together to make your life improve? Where do you have difficulties dealing with normal issues?
I think that figuring out the problems in our families and why we were so miserably unhappy must only be used to achieve the goal of becoming happy (heck, we deserve it ).
Also, dazed, I have not lost a parent, but are you suffering from some sort of regret... for what might have been... or for what you cannot change? For you, that is something you will need to let go. You have a hard task of acceptance, because you cannot even hope for change. The truth is, for many of us, the N parent is as good as dead to us. We also cannot hope for change. And it is very sad.
Lots of love Dazed.
Beth

[kelly as guest]

Well, the way I see it is we all get frustrated because there really is no winning with these people - dead OR alive!!!

And that is what I am trying to do, Beth.  Trying to figure life out with or without nmom.  My psychologist said - where ever you go - YOU will be there!!!  That is crazy but true, isn't it.  I have always been the type who thought.............If I get married or divorced or move into a new house or whatever, whatever........THEN my life will be ok............but it just doesn't work out that way.  But I do know that I can deal with life if I am not attached at the hip with a self-absorbed, narcissistic, egomaniac, prideful and arrogant woman.  Just the sight of her and her antics at work is enough to put me over the edge on a daily basis.

Today.  I was talking with an employee about a personal matter.  I was asking him about his divorce and what lead to it, etc.  Well, my nmom seems to "stalk" me at work.  When I am helping a customer or talking with people.................she just stands there and stares at me until I stop what I am doing and turn to look at her.  So I was talking with this guy and she just stood there.  After about five minutes of our continued conversation she said "I feel like I am eavesdropping..........."  and I looked at her and said, "You are!!"  Irritating!!!  So there goes those revenge thoughts from another thread...............

NO I WILL ALWAYS BE POSITIVE.  I WILL NOT SWELL ON THE NEGATIVE.  I HAVE TOO MUCH NEGATIVE ENERGY AND NEED TO LOOK AT THE BRIGHT SIDE.  I HAD A JOB INTERVIEW AND I THINK HE LIKED ME!!!!!

[gratitude28]

HOORAY Kelly!!! I hope they snatch you up (and it's a dream job!!)

I always thought life would be better after high school... after college... etc. I finally got happier when I moved away from them and created my own life. I no longer felt lonely and sad... I felt hopeful. I no longer felt stuck and depressed. I ended up having other issues... but for me, getting away was the first step.
Not everyone can or wants to do it, I know. For me it was good and necessary.
You are right, Kelly... we are where we are. That's good to remember each day.
How are things with your husband and daughter?
Love, Beth

[Hopalong]

NO I WILL ALWAYS BE POSITIVE.  I WILL NOT SWELL ON THE NEGATIVE.  I HAVE TOO MUCH NEGATIVE ENERGY AND NEED TO LOOK AT THE BRIGHT SIDE.  I HAD A JOB INTERVIEW AND I THINK HE LIKED ME!!!!!

What have you done with the old Kelly? 
Who is this bright positive growing stretching risking person, eh? ((((Kelly))))

You promise to hold on to your new inner sunshine no matter which way the job goes, okay?
(Try to just flow with each day, and keep following your new current...)

You are taking strides out and you are going to get there! Freedom's coming, Kelly....

Hops

[kelly as guest]

Well, I am trying to be optimistic!!

Remember the other thread where we were talking about meds and I basically said - "I'm not depressed so I don't need meds!"  And someone else said - "I think you are in denial?"  Well, I went to my doctor and she said I wasn't depressed but my life was so stressful that she was going to give me Lexapro to take the edge off..................."  Well, I was so worried about becoming a zombie that I wasn't too gung ho on meds..........but I have been on them about a month and all it has really done to me is take the edge off!!  I am a lot more optimistic!!  I am very happy that I have had two job interviews in the past month..................one of the guys (who didn't hire me........) came into the store today!!  I am so glad, too, because he saw us as busy as a retail store can be and me right in the middle of everything.  So maybe if he has a job opening he'll think twice about NOT contacting me!!!  Yea!!

But the new job is the one I want.  It seems too perfect for me!!  I hope.  I pray!!  I also took a sales assessment today.  NOt that it really had anything to do with the job I interviewed for but................I've been in sales so I answered the best I could!!!

My daughter is sad because of the friend dying but they are moving on.

My husbands birthday is today so my guess is we'll go out to "eat."  I'll eat and he'll drink!!  But that's another story.  Same story, second chapter!!!

[Dazed1]

Hi All,

Sela, Gaining Strength, Bean, Kelly and Gratitude28-Beth: Thank you all for your responses.

Sorry I haven’t responded sooner, been sick with flu.  I’m a bit foggy headed, so please excuse me if my posts are a bit spacey. 

Sela:
Thank you for your empathetic and kind words.

Yes, your are right:  The Jekyl & Hyde stuff was confusing and I’m a panic attack veteran.  Landed in the emergency room 3 times due to panic attacks.

You’re right re: me trying to figure out if/how Nism, codependence & enmeshment are connected. 

In the last few days, I’ve been reading “Facing Codependence” by Pia Mellody and, wow!  I really see myself in the description of codependence.  I’ve got a long road ahead to figure out what I am about.

Gaining Strength:
“I believe that you did not enmesh with your mother but it was your mother who enmeshed with you.”

That is a very interesting point, GS.  I think you’re right.

“She most probably had not been nurtured and protected as a child, herself and therefore lacked the capacity to provide those essentials for you and instead tried to get love and nurturing from you."  Right, again, GS.    My mother’s parents (my maternal grandparents) sucked. Therefore, I don’t “blame” my mother for her short comings, but I feel sorry for her that she did not take any action to break the cycle.  And, I suffered due to her inaction.  When it came to mental health, my mother was very unconscious.

Yes, I think my mother also damaged me due to her love for me.  My therapist said that I was unable to marry as long as my mother was alive.  Now that she’s dead, maybe I’ll have a chance. 

Bean:
Sometimes my mother empathized with my sister and me and sometimes not.  My sister was the scapegoat, I was the peacemaker.

Wow, the baseball incident must have been very hard for you to process when you were a child.  Yes, I see your point:  Your parents made a stink about the 2nd base thing not because it was in your best interest, but because it was a reflection of them:  Their family was entitled, special and better.   I agree with Stormchild that the coach was an ass and should never have been in a position of authority over kids.

And yet, sometimes, Bean, your parents' Nistic attitude worked for you, but in the big picture, it did not:  ie:  bad example on handling conflict, which I really relate to.  I grew up in a house where my parents often yelled at each other and when I asked why they were fighting, they’d say “we’re not fighting”.  Maybe my parent’s relationship is one of the reasons why I’ve been afraid to get married.

Weirdest thing about my mother was that she was very kind to strangers, but could be very nasty to her family.  I never understood that.

Kelly:
Thank you for connecting Nism, codependency and enmeshment.

Kelly, you took the words right out of my mouth:
“I didn't know any different.  For years I just thought it was normal to have a parent who made me feel guilty, dependent, etc.   I had no idea that it was wrong.  For years I knew I was frustrated but didn't think it was not right.  Now I KNOW it is wrong and am making strides to break the codendency and enmeshment.”

Good for you that you put up a boundary with your Mom about the job interview.

Kelly, I’m with you:  My parents usually did not (if ever) defend me and often my Mother would take the position of an adversary and convince me that I was in the wrong.

Kelly and bean:  I know you are both in the process of looking for jobs and I wish you all the best.

Gratitude28-Beth
Yes, you’re right:  How is this affecting me now?  The past is gone.  But, I want to understand the past so that I can try to avoid avoidable mistakes in the future. 

Wow, Gratitude28-Beth, your insight re: living/dead N parents is profound:  If the N parent is alive, the offspring may have hope that the N parent will change.  But, we all know that the likelihood of an N parent changing is very small.  Yep, either way (N parent dead or alive), the offspring is screwed!!

Yep, as Kelly says, whether the N parent is dead or alive, we cannot win.

Again, thank you all for your insights.

Love and hugs to all of you,
Dazed

[Overcomer]

Well, Dazed et al...............as I reread this thread something jumped out at me.  One.  Enmeshment comes in different forms.  It is either pro or against.  For me, it was against.  I cannot imagine having my parents fight for me.  I would think if that happened it would make me feel worthy somehow, that they loved me enough to confront my enemies.  No.  I have never been defended.  Always the bad guy.

Two.  Extreme enmeshment leads to codendency.  Meaning................you cannot make a move without the approval of the one with whom you are codependent.  Well, I'm not sure I am saying that right but for me, I could never, ever make a decision without my mom putting her stamp of approval on it.  My ex was a womanizer who had over 25 affairs and didn't work and lied, cheated and stealed but my mom wouldn't "let" me divorce him.  "hate the sin and not the sinner.........."  Also, could it be that these types of people use religion to make themselves look and feel superior - "holier than thou" if you will..............?  Anyway, it wasn't until some other objective person looked at me with dismay and said "Why are you still married to this jerk?"  And I said, "What?  You agree with me?  Do you think I should divorce this person?"  And he said, "Oh my God yes!!!!  What are you waiting for?"  And I finally had "permission" to divorce him and off I went to the lawyers office (much to my nmom's shagrin!!!)

Three.  Does all this enmeshment and codependency come with the narcissistic territory?  Can you live with an N and NOT be enmeshed and codependent??