Author Topic: dark side of the moon- Help  (Read 10304 times)

debkor

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2007, 02:51:08 PM »
You know when they say if your nervous if you have to stand in front of an audience to picture all the people in their underwear so you don’t’ feel so intimidated.
With the N’s when I would picture them as a 6 year old kid.  Hear what they were saying look at them like I’d look at my son. Aware of his reasoning that he thinks is rational as a 6 year old.  Roll my eyes when he wasn’t looking. Think Oh dear god, when I say no there is going to be a tantrum. And it always came. Send him to his room and listen to whining and crying for as long as it took but from a distance.  He would get sick of himself till he stopped come back out and feel sorry, just until the next time I said no and here came the tantrums again.  Fortunately it got better as he got older. He was growing up and could rationalize better.  With N’s they never do.  It’s dealing with a 6 year old mind, tantrums, decisions, lies, manipulating and all that goes along with being a child. 

My problem was that I looked at an adult and it was hard for me to place the body with the mind they have.  I was always looking at them as adults.  Made me freaking crazy with what came out of their mouths how they rationalized things. I would fee the same way as I did when I knew a tantrum was coming from my kid.  Oh God! Here comes the whining and crying. Dread the scene.  I stopped looking at the adult N’s. I would lower my eyes and listen so I didn’t have to look at this grown up person/body.  It was so much more effective for me. I heard a selfish, troubled kid talking and I didn’t feel so frustrated then.   I let them go on and on and did what I needed anyway.  They will always be stuck as little self-centered kids. If you can visualize this they won’t be so intimidating anymore.

With our children you think Oh god please get me through this child/teen stage.  You bite your lip, roll your eyes and drop the hammer sometimes. They hopefully grow up to be productive human adult beings.  N’s are always going to stay that child that you will always bite your lip, roll your eyes even drop the hammer but this will last for the rest of your life because they never grow up.  OMG I could not imagine UN ending tantrums.

Margo try to picture him as a kid being taken on by big adult attorneys and a grown wife.
He is going to react like a punished kid. You’re just dreading the tantrum.

It helped me to think of them this way.  I was less stressed when dealing with them.  Till I was able to get them the hell out of my life.

Love Deb









therapyN

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2007, 03:01:15 PM »
Tremusan,

What are you worried about?  If your husband is paying the bills and trying to work things out and attempting to advance your best interest.  N are very cerebal people and tend to not be that physical.    A N will manipulate for his own best interests.  If he is honestly giving more than what is fair, then what do you have to loose?  A true N will want to come out ahead and will not sacrifice anything not come out on top.  

PS New to this site and just visiting... from Wichita,KS studying for a PHD!

Margo

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2007, 03:26:10 PM »
Tremusan,

What are you worried about?  If your husband is paying the bills and trying to work things out and attempting to advance your best interest.  N are very cerebal people and tend to not be that physical.    A N will manipulate for his own best interests.  If he is honestly giving more than what is fair, then what do you have to loose?  A true N will want to come out ahead and will not sacrifice anything not come out on top.  

PS New to this site and just visiting... from Wichita,KS studying for a PHD!

Hey Wichita.  Are ya gonna be a psychotherapist or somethin when you grow up, lol? 

To tell you the truth...... I worry more about the trust issue with him right now.  And what will happen now that our 2 little girls are becoming attached to him.  I can't trust that he'll hang around or not bring some crazy woman back into our lives..... heck, I'm not even sure the other ones are gone.  Working on a deal with him would be about trusting him again.  Not just about money, ya know?
   

Margo

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2007, 03:34:45 PM »
Quote
I dont think you are married to a N he appears able to have feelings of guilt and empathy.

True, but many of them routinely fake feelings of guilt and empathy to draw back victims who are attempting to leave.
The test is whether those 'feelings' remain after the target is drawn back in. If they don't, more than likely they were not genuine but only a manipulation.

Quote
Usually, they will stick to a path of lesser resistance than trying to work out a divorce.

Again true, but he isn't actually working out a divorce. He's saying he will if it comes to that. The problem is, when it comes to that they never keep their word. Again it seems to me, it's manipulation masquerading as reasonableness.

mud

You guys are gonna love this, lol.  N just phoned..... all cheery and upbeat about his "settlement" agreement.  He quickly glossed over how he'd put the 3 most expensive PRE marital assets into trust for the girls and left out the 4th in the agreement, lol.  I asked him what there was of the PRE marital assets to include.... since he didn't mention any of this when OFFERED THEM UP!  He was offended and let me know I was beginning  to aggravate him. Oh my....... anyone surprised, lol?   I never knew what I wanted etc etc.  He actually raised his voice a bit and I found myself wanting to calm him nad brinng him back to the table.... which is where he wants me.... and I surely don't belong.  

I'm so stunned I can't even form words about how I feel.  If I didn't have some hope that this woiuld just all be over quickly.... I wouldn't be so dissapointed.  I knew it was coming.  I knew he would jump sideways 10 different ways and the dickering would be unbearable and extended.  It's what he's ,made of.......  not what he does.  

When I tried to calmly address teh fact that he offered things he didn't have.... he got on his "Being a mother I thought yoiu'd want your children cared for....." and I cut him off by saying I was still in shock and would be checking to see if he had, indeed put those things into a trust for the girls he couldn't change or screw with.   He assured me he had, which makes sense only if he knew he was going to be offering me this idiot deal.  AHHHHHH>  Circles!  That's going to be my new curse word, lol.  

So......it's official, he's dicking with me.  And.... he also threw in some threats about what I'd end up with if I didn't take this deal.  His need to control is so obviouse.  He was going to give me alimony for 3 years and set the child support at his current underemployed income yada yada yada.  

I cannot tell you how much I dread his coming down on me with dread when I tell him I'll pass.    

OK.... I spoke to husband again and he explained that he'd set the trusts up a while ago... months.  He did tell me he'd done it..... just not what was IN them.  Be that as it may....... I'm not going to focus on that right now.  It's just one more distraction.   

saneone

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2007, 03:40:53 PM »
I read your file and just wanted you to know I am still married to a supposed N that was also SA and he changed and became a great father and husband.  So, for your childrens sake don't throw in the towel!!!  It took some time for him to complete the 12 steps and his entire spirit changed.  I am not a person that believes in divorce (only in extreme cases) especially when a family has children.  IF your husband is attending a group you might be surprised at your life afterwards!! 

Peace and Joy

debkor

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2007, 03:43:52 PM »
Therapy N,

Hiya,
Welcome.

If you are studying for you PHD I can understand why you would come here.  You want to be the best you can be.
Your trying to understand and analyze what you see written.  This is the best place you can be if you plan on understand N's and how they tick. What pain they cause people.  Look beyond your text books.  As much as you are curious about what we say here I am as curious with you. 

Have you ever know a N in your personal life?  I mean family member/close friend?  If you have can you explain what your views/experiences are with them.  Did they cause you emotional suffering?  What were there personalities like? 
Or were you lucky enough not to come across one?  Just wondering? 
Can you share with us? 
You might of got lucky coming here. We may be able to help you understand so you don't make the victim in your private therapy feel like the victim over again.  which happens way to often. 

Love
Deb

mudpuppy

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2007, 03:44:41 PM »
therapyN,

Quote
What are you worried about?


You seem rather sanguine about the potential harm caused by a man who chokes and pulls the hair out of his wife when he is caught in adultery and brings convicted murderers to the house his wife and daughters live in to help him move out.
The statement that he is attempting to advance Margo's best interest seems slightly bizarre as well, unless of course you are concealing some personal familiarity with this situation.

I do agree with you that Ns are usually physical cowards, although they will sometimes harm those whom they don't think will or can fight back. And they are usually fairly cerebral; just seldom as cerebral as they seem to think.

mud

Margo

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2007, 04:00:04 PM »
I read your file and just wanted you to know I am still married to a supposed N that was also SA and he changed and became a great father and husband.  So, for your childrens sake don't throw in the towel!!!  It took some time for him to complete the 12 steps and his entire spirit changed.  I am not a person that believes in divorce (only in extreme cases) especially when a family has children.  IF your husband is attending a group you might be surprised at your life afterwards!! 

Peace and Joy

Oh saneone..... I can't tell you how much your words help.  Up to this point.... all information has been pretty dour and it's a refreshing see that someone's situation has been more positive.  From your siggy I see you've come through and have a better life.  Could you please share some of your situation with us so we can learn from it.  Thanks

therapyn

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2007, 04:36:53 PM »
Hi,

Try to leave emotions out and focus on the core.  We can be blinded by our emotions!  I have seen many people who have at one point of in there lives resulted in a physical outburst.  Many couples that are "normal" might have experience this once in there relationships or more.. We are from old caveman reflex reactions of "fight or flight" and stress levels can result in a return to insticnt in leu of reason.  To walk out of a realtionship because of a physical alteration... may be kin to locking up the father that is unemployed, sick and trying to feed children when he breaks down and steals food for his child...  Environment can affect our decisions.  Margo does your husband constantly abuse you physically?  Do you think he loves you?  People like to label others N all the time... the truth is we all exhibit the N behaviour at some point in our lives.  A true self centered N doesn't really like sex!!!! its just a mental masterbation to them.  Many couples of N are afflicted to this overwhelmingly.  (one of them doesn't get any!)   The point is we all just see the "victims" side of the story and never the transgressors or vice/versa...  got a meeting will continue latter....

Hopalong

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2007, 04:58:16 PM »
I am very uncomfortable and I feel there is something odd going on on this thread.

I hope Margo if you want to dialogue so trustingly with this person who's abruptly appeared here that you will stop giving details about your situation.

Okay?

I'm going to bug off now but I am concerned about you.
Please don't be reckless.

Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Margo

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2007, 07:57:13 PM »
I am very uncomfortable and I feel there is something odd going on on this thread.

I hope Margo if you want to dialogue so trustingly with this person who's abruptly appeared here that you will stop giving details about your situation.

Okay?

I'm going to bug off now but I am concerned about you.
Please don't be reckless.

Hops



I feel so ao wful that I've highjacked Seastorm's thread.  Please.... sorry to have worried you.  I'm going to focus on other people's messages and try to stay focused on the important balls in my life.  Thanks

sea storm

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2007, 01:49:28 AM »
Margo,

It is completely ok that you are writing on this thread. I just get bugged when people exchange recipes etc when I want to get the real goods. You are working through essential issues here. Good for  you.

Therapist??????? Do your homework.  Ns can be somatic Ns and they are very sexual with anyone they can snare. Cerebral Ns aren't interested in sex after initially catching their mate.  These stories rarely have happy endings. I don't know of any except for people who are still caught in the thrall of the narcissist's manipulations. Of course they will be wonderfully nice when they sense their mate distancing themselves. This is not a long term change or solution.

As for 12 step programs, they are very good but again they do not address personality disorders. Once an alcoholic dries out, they are sober. Working the 12 steps helps them stay sober but there is a lot more to dealing with the abuse that caused the "seismic rift" of abandonment and the splitting into sociopathy. Be verrry careful when advising a woman to stay in an abusive relationship or advising to leave for that matter.  It is a personal decision.

Oddly, I was left feeling the same distrust in Therapist. Something limited or msising there. Could this person be very young? inexperienced?  If so, then they can learn here and that is good. Better to share story than to come on with advice. There is something a bit unsettling about that.

Margo, you don't have to shut down. It is a lttle worrisome that you want to hear about miraculous stories of redemption. Very understandable though.  Didn't we all bargain with the devil and pray that what our hearts and intuition was telling us was just childish nightmares that we would wake from in the morning.
It would not hurt to consult with a lawyer. In my country we can interview a lawyer for 30 minutes at a fraction of their usual cost. I interviewed 3 lawyers and learned a lot about how they related to me and my situation. Some actually care about their clients and protect them. They seem to understand Nism because  they deal with criminals. The lawyer does the bargaining.  A good one will get right to it. Narcissists love negotiation and mediation and will have everyone going in circles and wasting tons of money.  Get information from a lawyer about what is ahead of you.

Lot of love,

Sea storm


saneone

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2007, 09:34:51 AM »
Hi Margo,

Everyone likes to advise fighting, and standing ones ground, every once in a while try giving a little and see what happens.  I read the concern about the 12 step program and a true personality disorder.. I say have faith you will be surprised what God can do!  I was abused, cheated on, and lied too.  I have a changed man now!  I am just a small voice of healing out here that likes to balance some of the more aggressive threads.  See not just one therapist try another and see if they advise the same things, have you tried ANON?  Many people are blessed in ways they take for granite, and never reallize what they had until its gone, or something worse comes around.

Peace & Joy

CB123

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2007, 09:44:33 AM »
Just a note to Margo, and anyone else who might be reading--

Saneone and TherapyN are the same person.  Pretty easy to check--they have the same email address (BUBBA--that says a lot, doesn't it?). 

What Saneone is proposing is that Margo "give a little" to someone who tore out chunks of her hair in a rage.  Okay, Bubba, you're entitled to your opinion.  But you are not entitled to my goodwill.

I have spent a lot of time and effort teaching myself to recognize an abuser early in the process.  It has paid off right here.  I'm not interacting at all with this character.  That's a real appropriate boundary in a case like this.

CB

When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

saneone

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Re: dark side of the moon- Help
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2007, 11:23:44 AM »
Thank you CB.  We are not the same character TherapyN is my son who is studying for his PHD.  The email address is false to prevent spam and it was his idea.  You can listen if you want or ignore... that is the beauty of these threads.  You seem aggressive and need peace?

Peace and Joy