Which is better?

[Sela]

Hi Sunny:

Did I read back a page or two, that you have a T?  If so, I'm very glad of that!  Is he aware that you go to the therapist?  How does he react to that?

Which is better?
For you?  For the kids?

Staying with a husband/father who rages, tries to control, abuses, etc?
Or going where there is no such person, where there is peace, freedom, respect, caring, etc..?

Staying in an environment in which you/they feel uncomfortable, unhappy, unsafe etc...?
Or moving to a new environment where you all feel more comfortable, happier, safer etc.?

Hoping for him to miraculously change?
Or accepting that the change is up to you and that you can make a miracle happen, if you decide to?
(that miracle being......a better life for you and your children).

(((((((((((Sunny)))))))))))

These aren't questions for you to answer to me.  Just for you to think about.  Is it scary to imagine leaving?  Or is it scarier.....to imagine staying? (edit:  Do you imagine his behaviour getting better or worse over time?).

Sela

[moonlight52]

N rage usually this is triggered by unintentional actions of others.
n rage is reaction to criticism or disagreement to perceived offense or injury.

I believe Sela it was your father that was controlling and abusive????

a person can survive abuse and understand what is healthy and what is not.
everyone has the right to choose for themselves...

It takes a lot of reading and but change can happen ..

best wishes

m

[DivineSunshine]

I KNOW this is abuse!  It is embarrassing.  I have only pushed him to the point of shoving one other time.  Usually he has backed me into a corner and then I shove him back for some space and he says ooooww, I hurt HIM.   ha ha ha

The problem is, he can't even handle 1 hour with the kids.  He tried yesterday, took them to grandma's for an hour and ended up yelling at all of them for not being good enough.  They are really sweet kids.  They don't deserve that and I wasn't there to protect them.  THAT is why I am still here.  I can't imagine a whole weekend for them with him.  Or worse, what if he gets custody by some weird turn of events.  That is what I am trying to wrap my brain around right now.

I am embarrassed to tell what I have told and still be here, and yes I usually would fade away once people in a group know what is going on, but I know I can't do that.  I am just delayed in writing sometimes because he is monitoring me.  Thinks I am finding a boyfriend online or something.  Like I even want to get into another mess---EVER!

This marriage was arranged anyway by our parents and our unique culture basically, and I am coping with the reallization and reality that I probably never really loved him in that way anyway.  I care about him as a fellow human and I try to have compassion cause he had a rough life before we met.  But according to him, he has detested his life since 1987 anyway, which was when we got together in high school.  Hmmmmm....that must mean I ruined your life.....reading betwen his manipulative lines.


More later.  Thanks for hearing me everyone.

Sunny

[moonlight52]

HI DS

I was not thinking in terms of a husband wife 

I was thinking in terms of a parent and child

That was the dynamic I experienced not a SO or husband wife situation .

Really different

in the light

moon

[Sela as guest]

Hiya Sunny:

I have only pushed him to the point of shoving....

Not an excuse for his behaviour.  People aggravate, irritate, frustrate, insult, belittle, etc. etc. other people all the time.  Some people CHOOSE to respond by shoving (some by worse actions and some by walking away).  They are not driven, they choose how to act.

I don't blame you to be worried about him getting visitation and/or custody.  That's why it's detrimental that you document, document,document.  Also, are you seeing a T?  Is this person helping you?  Again....the women's shelter?  They know about these things and might be able to help you protect your children and will have other means of help available.

Please do not feel ashamed.   His behaviour belongs to him.  You are surviving.   Lot's of people would have feelings fear, confusion, hoping for a miracle, etc in your situation or waver back and forth, trying to decide what to do.   It's not easy.

Here's a link with good advice (I think it was designed for women with disabilities but it makes sense for anyone in an abusive situation):

http://www.geocities.com/finexhouse/escape.html

((((((((((Sunny))))))))

Sela

PS:  Yes, Moon, my father was controlling and violent.

[Dazed1]

Hi Sunny,

I'm so sorry to hear all the horror you are going through.

But, please try not to feel embarrased or ashamed.  Yes, I also felt embarrased and ashamed when I realized the abuse, but then I felt stronger and clearer for recognizing the abuse. 

By recognizing the abuse, you are giving up your denial of the abuse and that is MAJOR!!  So, CONGRATULATIONS!!  You, like me and many of us here, have a long way to go to recover our "true selves" and to make our lives happy and fulfilling, but every long journey begins with the first step.  You have taken that first step by recognizing the abuse. 

I completely agree with Sela, particularly what Sela said about "I have only pushed him to the point of shoving one other time."  I have recently learned this lesson too, but, here's the deal:  You, Sunny, DO NOT choose your husband's behavior or his thoughts, no matter what you do. HE CHOOSES HIS OWN BEHAVIOR AND THOUGHTS.  I emphasize this because it's a very important point to understand for people who are abused.  If he shoves you or yells at you, HE has chosen that behavior; You HAVE NOT forced him to choose that behavior.

On the other hand, in order to protect yourself and your kids, if you feel he's going to verbally or physically abuse you (like shove you), then remove yourself from the situation, like leave the room or leave the house.

Here is a web site that gives excellent examples of what abuse is: http://drirene.com/contents.htm

I think one of the big questions is whether your husband can be reformed and give up his abusive ways.  That may be a difficult question to answer.

I also think CB is right:  It's time to start planning for the future:  If you were to leave him, you need to support your kids and yourself.  Think contacting a women's shelter is an excellent idea.

Sunny, you're on the right track: You know something is wrong with your relationship with your H and you want to change it.  That's a big step in the right direction.

love,
dazed

[DivineSunshine]

Hey all,

Thanks!

I am feverishly and secretly reading and writing and will be posting responses when I can.  Thanks for the links and advice.  I will be back ASAP.

Sunny
gotta go....

[CB123]

Many thoughts are coming your way, Sunny.  You have been much on my mind.

CB

[Hopalong]

Sunny,

Women's shelter
Women's support groups
Women's networking
Women counseling

I think you'll find a community of sisters, here and out there, who would be so eager to help you extricate yourself.

Please know that this hope is real. As real as the abuse you've lived with.

Hops

[DivineSunshine]

I have to break this stuff up between running errands and dong my "chores" so he doesn't clue in that I am online during my son's nap time.  I am now just needing to vent because it seems starting to tell a little opens the flood gates in my mind and I get overwhelmed with memories of the constant daily abuse.  I feel silly for having just one time I stand up to him as I wrote here a few posts back. And speaking of flood gates,  I am reminded of a song that says:

It's a silly time to learn to swim when you start to drown...
It's a silly time to learn to swim on the way down.....

Sela and all,  Yes I WENT to a therapist, because a year ago, I found myself in turmoil with my FOO, my "religion"---which in my vicinity is also all my neighbors, and with my NH.  I was totally wanting to know what was wrong with ME to find myself in this position with so many people after being called a peacemaker all my life. 
My T was a help, verified I was dealing with an N H, and I had married my N mother.  And I needed to stand up for myself.  Since my insurance didn't pay any of it, I soon found we couldn't afford it.  Hmmmm....maybe husband saw my 'stupid days' were coming to an end and cut off my supply of validation and support??  So I stopped going.  Then listened to him chastise me for it.
 I had to choose this certain T because it was a guy that NH went to about 8 years before to deal with his father's pending death and he was one of the few people NH actually praised.  (Since almost everyone on earth is a total idiot, in his book)  I could choose no other, especially not a woman,  because then he would say,  What is that quack (woman) filling your head with?  Doesn't like me to watch Oprah for the same reason.  Or watch any woman on TV stand up for herself, he is sure to tell me what  fat bit** SHE is, cause he knows he keeps me in check that way. 

Anyway, I went under the guise of talking to him about my FOO and the NC situation I went into with them recently.  Which he also chastised me for (NC).  I really talked about him.  He keeps me so uptight I have no time or energy to deal with FOO situations even if I want to.  My T nailed it in the first session.  "You married your mom"---I pulled this out of the holster during our last argument on New Years to seeif he even cared or understood.  Just made him mad and defensive of course.  Then he claimed the T was always wrong when he went anyway.  So therefore, of course he was wrong about that too.  This is the first time he ever has spoken poorly of T in 8 years---when he finds he is exposed.  Before I stopped, T verified his NPD, said to stay was going to be really hard (not news) and that most of what he did to control me was bullsh**!  I know what I must do, I am just trying to have a few good times, which never seem to come. 

I promised myself when I spent my tenth anniversay in his soon-to-be repossessed sports car getting raged at because...well, just because he was having a bad day and I didn't want to try on the shirt he insisted on getting me because he hadn't bothered to do anything else for me.  I didn't want the shoes or shirt he insisted on but when along but not "cutsie" enough for him so he raged.  He expects me to be a wind-up doll who smiles and performs on command.  He just blamed his rage on his stupid financial situation.  I say his financial situation because he invested tons of borrowed cash into a stupid scheme which I never approved of and lost it all.  We were dealing with the FBI to try to get it back.  Actually had our phones tapped to nail the guy.  Got regular phone calls and visits from the FBI.  It was loads of fun.

 We have faced foreclosure  about every 6 months, in every house we lived since 1994.  And I am talking up to the day before sale, usually.  This is all a result of his inability to work.  He convinced me a few years back to sign my name on a loan on property his mother lived in to save her home for her.  I did--I was basically forced.  I tried to leave with the kids then, but came back when I realized if I had to choose between the 2 monsters of him or N mom.  I guess I had to choose him, so my kids could be in their own home.  He told me I had no right to do that to them.  Take them to my mothers.  I have had to stare foreclosure in the face every 6 months with that property too.  Every time I ended up on the phone, being humiliated and lying to beg for more time or whatever while he stood over me, insisting I do.  Normally, I can't lie to save my life.  I told him once I couldn't do it again.  He went suicidal on me until I areed to call the mortgage co and make arrangments one more time.  My credit ended up in the toilet.  He finally refinanced it under someone else's name a few months ago and bought his momma a NEW house.  Both of which he  still pays for each month. 
These payments he makes while our home is in jeopardy.  And the kids go without.  I am at home jumping and getting sick to my stomach every time the door bell rings because it is usually only someone looking for a bill to be paid, the mailman with registered letters, constables, his "investors.  I handle them and then he gets angry if I let him know it bothers me.  I stoped answering the phone years ago because creditors would call all day. ALL of this mess is due to his screw-ups, selfishness, pride, and his FOO.  He won't stay away from them, he just chastises me for having to make the decision to go no contact with my FOO. 
 If I leave to go to the grocery store, I hurry home if he is there.  I even had to  make sure the older ones could watch the young ones when I went to therapy so I didn't have to worry about coming home to rages then.  Or worrying that the kids will try to answer the door or  phone to someone looking for payment of something.  And then he chastises me for not answering the phone or door or not allowing him to help with the kids.

I am home with the kids because is too nutty to be at home with them.    So that ties my hands from working because I have to stay to protect them from him.  Then he is sure to tell me I don't help him at work.  Or if I find a babysitter, well, then the house isn't clean enough and the meals aren't done right any more.  And when he IS home, he expects me to be at his side to love him or be yelled at and whined too, what ever he is in the mood for.  And yet, somehow, I am supposed to be able to do the housework while I hold his hand.  Cause then he rages or pouts f he can't get a clean plate for a snack or something. 

I am so sorry you guys, this is making me sick to write this.  I have told a few people a bit of this over the years and they have no idea what to say.  Maybe they think I am lying.  One thing is for sure.  It is way to much to handle even hearing for most.  I am going for it here when I can just to get it out.  It is bopping around in my head too much now.  I feel if I don't get some of this nonsense in writing, I will end up yelling at him again.  He will see I am upset and go for the jugular.  Ya'll don't really have to read it or respond.  I don't expect that.  I just need to get it out.

Oh, and incidentally.  He came home for lunch today as I was about ready to post this.  He called me to tell me he was coming and I could just hear the beep  beep beep of the backing up dump truck.  He was headed home to dump on me.  Well,when he arrived,  for once he was the one to answer the door the mortgage default papers.  I usually get that.  It doesn't even shake me any more.  But he was shook.  He finally felt how it was to be mortified in front of the mailman while you sign for a bunch of certified mail telling you they were starting the foreclosure process on your house---again.  Sick thing is,  I am used to it.  He then commenced to dump his whole day onto my shoulders again and then left after I consoled him.  What a dork.  I've got more, crap I wrote out, but maybe that is all I will copy and paste for now.  He will scrounge up the money for the house just in time, as usual.  I just can't figure out why he doesn't just work for it in the first place and avoid this nonsense. 

Mostly this stuff is to remind ME of what an idiot he is.  If I don't write it out as I try to recall it, I tuck it away and continue to pretend it never happened.  He is a total N jerk and I still feel bad for him and guilty for posting and especially freaked out at getting caught.  I can't even go on another computer in the home when he is here unless he is sleeping because he has progams on them to be able to see what is going on on each screen from another screeen in the house.  Oh, and when he sleeps, if I move...he grunts to let me now he is still watching me and aware I am moving around or getting up.  I know I don't need to convince you guys of this abuse, I just need to see it in black and white. 

over and out....hope this makes any sense


Sunny

[gratitude28]

Sunny,
I think you need to put aside your embarrassment and everything else and put your kids first at this point. Do you want them to think this is a normal environment?Do you want them to be here, where we are, trying to piece their lives back together after being through hell trying to find themselves? That is where they are headed by living in a home like this. I know you are unhappy and I think you ought to be very frightened. I think it is time to put the children first. I also think you should not leave them alone with him ever. You can do this and there are amny who will help you.Please leave before further damage is done.
Love,
Beth

[DivineSunshine]

I'm not EVEn done, and this is just mostly the recent and worst stuff that has been rolling around in my head the past few days.  Fire away, you guys, I need to hear how pathetic this really is.  For some reason I have been wondering if I am over-reacting.

 I will type while I can.  Sorry this might be long. 

So, at my 10 years anniversary, I promised myself to stay no longer than 3 years.  I lost any baby weight I had.  Looked better than high school, and of course I had to fight him to even eat different than him or exercise.  He threw every thing in my way he could think of.  But I somehow had the strength to resist and do it anyway and he was mad.  And then...I didn't take the kids and leave.  I let myself down.  Not only that, I got pregnant again.  Yep, stupid.  But this kid was meant to be here.  Don't know why and I don't resent him at all.  I actually was in the hospital after almost losing him to placenta abruptia (sp?) and my daughter happened to be scheduled for surgery the same morning 2 hours after I ended up delivering.  We were afraid a growth on her finger might be cancerous (wasn't, thank God) and so we went ahead with it. We had it scheculed for 6 weeks and didn't want to wait 6 weeks again.   So...my baby is in ICU after almost losing him.  I have finally stopped hemorrhaging, and my NH and his N Mother go to get something to eat while they wait for my 12 year old to get out of surgery.  Well, they can't find him anywhere when she comes out of it, so they call my room (we are in the same hospital) and I have to convince the nurse  to wheel me down to be there when my daughter wakes up.  My legs are still numb.  I get there just as NH and N MIL come wandering in.  And guess who he is mad at ---ME.  For going to be by her side when he couldn't be found.  I still haven't even seen my baby since they wisked him out to clear his lungs after delivery.

Then, after leaving me at the hospital alone most of the time, while his mom messed up our house trying to "help", he tells me I am being a baby and can't I just handle my son's circumcision alone the next morning?  I simply told him what time it would be.  He insisted on being there for our older boys' so this is shocking.  But I don't say anything.  He realizes he has done something--although he can't imagine what--and stays for a few minutes to backpeddle.  While his sisters who came to visit stay outside and wait with all the kids and are left to wonder I am sure what MY problem was.  Then calls me after he gets home at 1 am to chat.  Maybe I want to sleep--ya know.  I was embarrassed.  The nurses were all dumbfounded, I am sure, by the way he was.  I cried and tried to hide my tears while I paced the floor to get in to see my baby all night.  I told myself then, I was getting out I could not believe I had another baby with this guy.  Turns out, as usual, he ws stressed out from his business, the kids were driving him crazy, and he just didn't have time for me to fall apart too.   I should just get a recording of that statement.  It is all I ever hear.

And yet, I am still here.  My baby is 2.5 now.  My oldest is almost 15 (within weeks).  I have no FOO to turn to.  And I am sure he will use this against me to try and prove I am a total crazy bit**!!  He always tells me that--in a "nice" way.  "You just don't understand what you are doing to me and the kids by not talking to your FOO!"   Since when was THAT about HIM???  He makes everything about him.   I don't even bother to talk to him about it anymore.  Why bother.  He doesn't hear a word I say anyway.  He will just start talking when I am talking about ANYTHING, or ignore me, or just not "remember" anything I have said about anything. 


Sunny---trying to hurry and edit, copy, and paste while I have a minute alone.

[dandylife]

Sunny,

I'm going to go out on a limb and ask: what situation in your life do you need to complete? Did someone hurt, abuse or molest you as a child? (answer to yourself) In what situation(s) did you feel voiceless? What, now that you are grown, would you have done back then to make the situation better for yourself? What resources could you have called upon to protect yourself? What resources would your adult self hand over to your child self in order to cope? Now answer those questions for your situation today (to yourself).

With your husband, you behave as if you are voiceless. And not only that, decisionless. Did you know that you have the POWER as a human being to have the basic human rights every person in the world has? Do you know your basic human rights? I ask because until recently I didn't know.

Here is Article 19 from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Your husband has NO RIGHT to interfere with your reading, learning, writing or speaking in ANY way.

Please see the complete declaration here: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

It really helped me in standing up to others (assertively, not aggressively, there is a difference).

Please Sunny, always remember you do have a choice. Your life would be hard if you left him (hard work, tough schedule, see your kids less because you'd be working), but you'd be in control. What could be worse on a daily basis than what you've described to us? Especially since you say that him working and money coming in is a problem. Someone's got to work and you sound very intelligent and bright - very very articulate and understanding. Who knows? You might even find work that you fall in love with!

And remember behavior that begets the same behavior will go on and on and on in an insane circle until someone pulls a chair out and there's 1 less there and someone falls in the floor. Let's hope that someone is your N. You can best control that by being the one in control.

Keep learning. You don't have to leap until you're ready. In fact you don't ever have to leap as long as you decide that's what you WANT to do. Maybe staying gives you benefits that override your need for serenity. Only you can say.

I urge you to pick up and leave, though, at the first sign of physical abuse. That is the one time it is worth getting out with the clothes on your back and working up from there. You will find the help you need, it's out there.

You don't need to reply - I just hope that you are okay and that some of these words can be a balm, a spark, or a calm hand as needed.

Now that your eyes are open to the reality of your situation, you are stepping forward and won't want to go backward again. May strength rain down......

Dandylife

[DivineSunshine]

 I once told  him how stupid I feel cause I put on weight and he probably doesn't want to hear me and thinks I am being ridiculous--which he does---and HE is offended cause "I accused him of not caring"  and he is going to prove how much he cares by yelling at me for it.  Then threatening to leave.   Hmmm....

He goes from telling me how much he cares and how great he thinks I am and I am the nicest person he knows and thanks for always understanding and being there for him and........all that.
To.....yelling at me he is sick of me, he can't stand me anymore, I am driving him crazy, he puts up with more than he should from me, he wants this over!!!!  This is ALL MY FAULT--he says.  I DID THIS!!!---he says.  Then makes a scene and storms out, slamming doors and  screeching his tires and sending the kids into terror and confusion.  After all, I (we) don't want him there anyway.--he says.  Tells me I do all sorts of stuff to make him mad and upset, but he "won't tell me right now what that is"  I plead for some help to try and not upset him and HE JUST won't say.  Says I can't take it.  Bal-oney!

One of his last ones was when he made 3 out of 4 duaghters cry in one night be being a insensitive demanding jackas*, and then came to complain to me about them.  I didn't sympathize, so he freaked and stormed out, letting out his favorite dog to run the streets because he is in such a rage he doesn't care about the dog all of a sudden.  He is always accusing me of not caring about the dog.  Which is NOT true.  I even got a dog last year and he freaked out every night about it and yelled at me or one of the kids about the dog doing this or that until I had to find it a new home just to save some peace.  But the dog loved him cause he would babytalk to it and then yell at us about anything it did or didn't do.  Twisted.

Then there's the suicide threats.  Sometimes he will sleep down stairs and then chastise me for not coming to get him during the night.  Sometimes I do.  Usually I do, just to get it over with to ease the tension in the house. 

???????

If he is angry and I leave the room.  He follows me, asking what is wrong with ME?  What is my problem?  He has done nothing!  I am too sensitive and unreasonable.  I usually just bite my lip and agree---he did nothing, of course.

The last two birthdays of mine. They are usually disappointing enough I don't remember---- but I remember these.   First one back, he ignored me.  Didn't even remember all day or call, then came home and raged, yelled at the kids for having fun and making my cake for me.  And then stormed off to bed. I ended up consoling him.   The last one, he took me to dinner at his choice of restaurant, and then told me don't worry about my body issues, he would find a way to get plastic surgery that year to fix the mess the babies made.  I didn't even bring it up, he did.  Thought he was being really heroic letting me know that. 

I ask him a few years back to please pay attention to the kids.  Because I basically raised them alone to that point.  Now he loves to talk to them.  They area good source of N supply.  He talks about himself to them.  Or makes sure he is the center of attention.  And uses them to fetch everything in the house for him while he sits like a king.
I also think he has a renewed sudden interest to try to get them on his "side" to prepare for a pending divorce. Or leaving me.   I know he is. 

I tell him I remember being sexually abused as a kid I just can't remember who did it.  I have blocked that out.  I tell him my N mother used religion to guilt me so bad about sex that I am basically  frigid because of it.  I tell him the meds he wants me to take make me care even less.  He doesn't care.  Just expects to wind me up and I will perform for him.  I do it just to get it over with.

Can't go to grocery store without getting sick to my stomach and hurrying home.  Concerned with money spent and getting home before he blows his top.  I don't give him anything to complain about.  I don't spend any extra money, talk to friends, I keep the house clean.  I don't nag  or cheat, I try to look good.  I exercise.  I cook his favorite foods.  When he wants them.  Which sometimes he will send back because it isn't good enough.  We do everything in the house HIS way.  I always agree with him, I don't dare show how I really feel about ANYTHING. 

Always makes me wait for him for hours sometimes.  Wait, wait, wait.  It is all I do when we need to go somewhere.  I get everyone else ready and he just sits until he is good and ready.
He once told me he would do his own laundry and food cause he knew I hated it and -------- then didn't.  Of course.  I don't do anything good enough for him anyway. 
He uses sickness now to gain my sympathy.  Constantly in pain.  This or that.  I stay up during the night and nurse him.  He is always sicker than me or anyone in the house. 
If I say anything about ANYTHING, then I am the crazy, delusional, overly sensitive, PMSing, didn't take her meds today, bit**!!  I won't take the meds he pushed me to get.  I did for a bit, but they made me too docile IMO.  I can't stand docile any more! 

Can't stand any of this either!

Sunny---getting it OUT finally!

OK DONE.   Thanks for letting me rant.   

[Leah]

Your  BILL OF RIGHTS

· You have the right to be you.
   
· You have the right to put yourself first.
   
· You have the right to be safe.
   
· You have the right to love and be loved.
   
· You have the right to be treated with respect.
   
· You have the right to be human - NOT PERFECT.
   
· You have the right to be angry and protest if you are treated unfairly or abusively by anyone.
   
· You have the right to your own privacy.
   
· You have the right to your own opinions, to express them, and to be taken seriously.
   
· You have the right to earn and control your own money.
   
· You have the right to ask questions about anything that affects your life.
   
· You have the right to make decisions that affect you.
   
· You have the right to grow and change (and that includes changing your mind).
   
· You have the right to say NO.
   
· You have the right to make mistakes.
   
· You have the right NOT to be responsible for other adults’ problems.
   
· You have the right not to be liked by everyone.
   
· YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL YOUR OWN LIFE AND TO CHANGE IT IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH IT AS IT IS.