Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Leah]

Is causing the gaslighter (small or large) some discomfort (by shining a bit of light on their bahavior) worth the disruption of his LARGE PUNISHING REACTION, which is his true genius?

My personal view is that the only effective way would be to work together and simply show clearly "we" together in a community of unity, know, recognize, that the 'gaslighting' is taking place.

This can be done without discord. 

Once the 'gaslighter' knows they know - the gaslighter has lost his/her role game play.

However, with only one person standing up alone (or just a few people) he/she  has  his/her  ultimate object(s) for  his/her game,
so he/she then can up the anti to employ all the rest of his/her nasty moves and tactics in his/her game. 

Then he/she can sit back and enjoy.  As innocent object's of his/her making knock each other out of the game.

Remember, it's his/her  game, and it's all about him/her. 

That's my viewpoint.

Love, Leah


PS>  Each environment is different and would need a different handle or approach.   Dependent upon the situation being:  Real or Cyber ?

[Hopalong]

Wise, Leah.

Thank you, Amber.

Carry on, Lighter.
(I will carry on, peeking behind your shield.)

I'm feeling sort of disgusted with myself.
Overeating and bloated.

I think I am showing signs of having boundary collapse in all directions, in a way.
I can see it here, and in 3D life, in my relationships, and the way I'm treating my body.

Maybe holidays are catching up to me. Plus the D drama.
When I'm not caring care of myself in relationships, then I also don't care for my body.

This would be my lightbulb of the week.

xo,
Hops

 

[Leah]

Thank you, Hops

Love to you, Leah

[reallyME]

I believe Dr Phil has the idea to STOP GASLIGHTING MANEUVERS in your families, once and for all.  Maybe you haven't tried this or maybe you have, but if not, I'd highly recommend it, cause N's hate it and it leaves them defenseless, like they belong being left.

VIDEOTAPE THEM IN THE VERY ACT and then say "OK, NOW WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY?  WHAT LIE ARE YOU GOING TO TELL TO DISCREDIT THE VERY THING THAT IS IN LIVING COLOR BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES?

I know X dreaded the thought of being taped by me.  I should have known that the reason for that, was that there was MUCH to hide and not want seen.

~Laura

[mudpuppy]

Leah,

My personal view is that the only effective way would be to work together and simply show clearly "we" together in a community of unity, know, recognize, that the 'gaslighting' is taking place.

Don't you think it is sometimes quite difficult, especially on the internet to tell who is gaslighting whom? Sometimes maybe two people are gaslighting each other simultaneously or no one is being gaslighted at all. Seems like 'we' should be very circumspect about unifying against anyone in a place as shadowy as the internet.

mud

[Leah]

Leah,

My personal view is that the only effective way would be to work together and simply show clearly "we" together in a community of unity, know, recognize, that the 'gaslighting' is taking place.

Don't you think it is sometimes quite difficult, especially on the internet to tell who is gaslighting whom? Sometimes maybe two people are gaslighting each other simultaneously or no one is being gaslighted at all. Seems like 'we' should be very circumspect about unifying against anyone in a place as shadowy as the internet.

mud

Dear Mud,

I mentioned, when "we" know so "we" would be in a position of "knowing" due to the all too evident behaviours of engagement.  Especially, when we know the person is being targetted for a purpose, as we have all recently been witnessing, without dragging up examples. 

We have known, as it has been mentioned.

The renowned worldwide "cyberbullying" website is a good resource and includes how to become aware of various types of modern day internet practices etc. 

Basically, in any community, you don't stand back and watch someone get slaughtered.
 
Leah

[lighter]

Mud.... if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and spreads confusion like a duck......

maybe it's a duck?

Every board member feels free to lable, judge and otherwise determine what the behavior of 3-d players might be.

I can't, for the life of me, determine why it's taboo for members here to look at another board member's behavior, make reasonable determinations about it then take steps to minimize future chaos on the board. 

Not silence it.

 Not restrict it. 

Just provide some context and information that prevents previouse patterns of chaos and confusion.

Why is it that reasonable, rational observations are so taboo!?!?!

Ahem.

How to make sense out of non-sensical responses, that go beyond the pale, 101.

I don't know about you but..... I need a few lessons in the subject  

[lighter]

Hi, Lighter.

I tend to handle them differently depending on how invested I am in the relationship and how I imagine my life will be affected by the Pd'd person. But I also sense from your posts that you would like to protect and warn others about the red flags/PDs you see, so I'm a bit confused... I'm just not clear about what you are looking for.

Lollie

Does it all come down to how dependant we are on the PD'd person?

I think it does.

I happen to be somewhat dependant on this board.... and not the pd person causing repeated board strife so... back to contemplating what dependancy and resistance to being held hostage means.   

[mudpuppy]

It seems pretty sensible to me, for someone to believe that complete amateurs diagnosing as fact people they hardly know with various "PDs", sociopathies, etc is neither reasonable nor necessarily rational.

mud

[CB123]

It seems pretty sensible to me, for someone to believe that complete amateurs diagnosing as fact people they hardly know with various "PDs", sociopathies, etc is neither reasonable nor necessarily rational.

Mud, seems to me thst complete amateurs diagnosing people with various PD's, is the whole premise of this board!  And learning to do thst as early as possible in a new relationship, seems to be one of the most sought-after skills of thosr of us who have been wounded.  I get your point--and probably agree with you--but could be that you are trying to shut the barn door after the pony has already escaped.

I just wanted to point out what personal options are really available in trying to process last week:

1) Ignore the whole thing and not make any judgments at all about any of it.  Let it blow over and then continue business as usual.  A very viable option--but you all have to recognize that when our FOO exercised that option in our lives they did as much damage to us as did the original N behavior.  I am not voting one way or another for this, but just pointing out the inconsistency of sympathizing with someone who is trying to recover from something in their FOO that we are, at the same time, participating in here.  (I might add that when I have been scapegoated on the board, that was the reaction of choice--so I know wherewith I speak).

2) Contact other people individually and behind the scenes so you can offer sympathy and support without getting involved in open conflict on the board.  I am really reluctant to do that since that appears to be gathering factions behind the scene and that feels smarmy to me.  Not to mention the fact that it is proabably that very tactic that puts steam behind the original gaslighting. 

3) Leave the board because it just isnt safe.  And, how many of us have noticed that that has been the option exercised by the majority of our long-timers?  Most of the fire in the conflict has been fueled by posters who have not been around as long, and those who have disappeared have been those who were around long enough to remember the last several conflicts.  I am making absolutely no judgment about whether that is good or bad--only that it is a fact, and needs to be weighed in when we wonder how best to handle board conflict.

4) Continue to hammer out, on the board, in the open, the dynamics of what is happening.  Big negative: it keeps alive a conflict that is probably not going to get resolved and which is very triggering to those of us who try to stay sensitive to what is going on.  Big positive: for once, those of us who have been voiceless for so long when we perceived we are being persecuted (perceived being the operative word), have an opportunity to take a different stance in a place that we feel safe.  Or should feel safe.

Notice that I am not assuming any PD's at all here, although that is also a real possibility that can get thrown into the mix.  It seems to me that the above are all possible approaches that could be taken by regular, ol', co-N's who are trying to figure out how the heck to maneuver a very familiar situation.  I can only claim to have used #1, since I find #2 distasteful, #3 means I would have left within a few weeks of joining the board and wouldnt even be here to participate in this discussion, and have already found #4 to be fruitless in 3D life so dont have much faith in its ability to solve anything (this is the Achilles heel in my normally optimistic view of life--I dont believe that anyone, not just N's, really change that much because of anything I say to them). 

Here's my big thought:  any of these options are acceptable, in some cases.  If we were advising someone who came to the board with a 3D situation, I think that the advice that many of us would give would be to take door #3.  NC.  Period. End of discussion. Except that, when you are dealing with relationships that consist SOLELY of discussion, that pretty much closes down the board whenever there is a conflict. 

Our second most common piece of advice would be a 3D #4.  Stand up for yourself.  Refuse to be voiceless.  Speak your truth and let the chips fall where they may.  Reap the internal benefits of regaining your power, even if the situation doesnt resole the way you would like. 

I have never heard anyone on the board recommend  a 3D #1, or seen anyone who exercised a 3D #2 have a good outcome.

Anyway, thought I would clarify the real options that are available.  My personal guess is that if there is a push, on the board, to avoid #4, it is probably not because we have a moral aversion to standing up for ourselves.  It is probably because if someone decides to handle conflict by standing up and speaking up (#4), it will mess with the dynamics of the system and will trigger most of us all over the place.  Which, it might be helpful to note, is why our FOO chose that option in past 3D times. 

Seems to me that we might be on the edge of some valuable truth telling to ourselves: that maybe our FOO wasnt all bad guys who just wanted to persecute us.  That maybe some of our FOO were actually cut from the same piece of cloth as the rest of us--they didnt know what to do with an ugly situation either.  That they were triggered all over the place by open confrontation.  That they saw the whole family structure imploding because someone spoke up, and kept speaking up.  So, they chose to go with #1, just as many of us have here. 

Hey, guys.  Just calling it like I sees it.  Seems to me we are stuck in a never-ending spiral if we dont see that the same behavior can't be encouraged off the board if it is discouraged on the board.  I don't have an answer.  I'm as triggered as the next person.  I am not choosing #4, myself.  For me, this kind of thing makes me rethink the original behavior that brought me to the board in the first place.  Makes me think through whether everyone that triggers me (past, present and future) is a PD.  Makes me wonder whether my healing lies in trying to put a label on people, or whether it lies in being kind to myself as I navigate a really, really tough life that doesnt have a rule book. 

Sorry, Mud.  I know I drive you nuts when I chase this particular rabbit trail.  What can I say?  I'm a rabbit.

Love, CB

[lighter]

"It seems pretty sensible to me, for someone to believe that complete amateurs diagnosing as fact people they hardly know with various "PDs", sociopathies, etc is neither reasonable nor necessarily rational."

mud







I seem to recall you doing a masterful job of it when someone was masqurading as a Mother and Doctor Son team, here on the board, Mud; )



It's one thing I can count on..... we (general)  refer to people as our N's (I think that's a Cluster B personality disorder?  Right up there with antisocial and Borderline Personality Disorder?)   all the time without being questioned about it.  Be it boss or neighbor or friend or relative.  We're pretty comfy with dx'ing on the board.  ::nodding::

I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head for me, Mud.

Loose train of thoughts to follow:

I;ve already stated that I have no interest or hope in gaining anything from the Personality Disordered person.... by talking about their behavior.

 Not change or recognition or taking responsiblity or nuthin.

What I have come to expect is a radical protesting beyond the pale response from the PD person that's designed to discourage any fruther voicing of perceptions, in the future.  

That their ploy seems to work, is the crux of my frustration.... at least I think it is, at this point.    

Talking about PD behavior, here, as in anywhere..... is about expressing perceptions about reality.... and it's usually challenged with  blaming, shaming, more over the top scapegoating and gaslighting.... dramatics, etc.  

That's expected and not at all surprising from the PD person.

WHAT IS SURPRISING...... is when a group of peers, who're in the same environment.... deny the perceptions of their peer .  

Doesn';t matter if it's subtle or overt..... having the PD person's skewed version of reality validated..... is shocking and never mind unfair, if they're actually doing what's being pointed out.

Especially here...... to see PD people garner sympathy/supply and back up regarding their outragouse behavior..... is a puzzle.


And

I

am

puzzled.  



So...

 it's not that I desire the PD's understanding or anything else from them.

It's the misfired connection between the people observing the behavior that has me confused..... though confusion follows pd people like a cloud of toxic gas and I'm not surprised about that.  


The PD may be extremely skillful in gaining sympathy and protection responses from certain individuals, like protective manly men, for instance? People who're attracted to discord and generally dislike anyone being put on the spot, esp if it's done in a cocky annoying manner?

I must say....... feeling something's out of place and talking about it is terrible difficult enough, considering what one encounters when they hit the nail with PD people.  Talking about it usually starts with a very small subtle voice and escalates as the PD avoids, returns fire and generally moves the discussion in an arena of grand scale.  It can't just remain a discussion. Nope nope nope.

I digress..... I'm sure it can be an overt injury when the group the PD person is manipulating actually defends that persons right to continue their behavior, unchecked, and actually sanctions the bahavior.  ::shudder::

So...... being dismissed (with prejudice and the intention to shame in some cases......) for expressing our perceptions of reality in any arena.... is disturbing.  Esp if we're friggin right,lol!



And then...... rolling out the red carpet for the behavior to continue (unchallenged) and perhaps even sanctioned to some extent.... is just a dallop of gall on the top.  
 

I guess a couple of sayings come to mind.....

"You can't save people from themselves" and "All that's necessary for evil to succeed, is for good ment to do nothing."

Imagine if good men are sanctioning it.  

Dumbfounded and confused as to why I perceive this is happening.... if I'm completely off base here and have no basis in reality for my perceptions.   ::about to toddle off..... dizzy::

I'm perfectly willing to accept that my perceptions are skewed, after all.  I'm human.  I can admit that, and not just to gain sympathy either.  

::whispering::  

I actually believe it.

What I'm not willing to do is accept someone else's skewed version, if it makes no sense to me at all.....

and so far......

I'm not resonating with you here, Mud.

And..... does it matter if the evil is small and malformed and confused and not much of a threat?  

How does that excuse it from being perceived honestly if that's what it is?

Why would it be exempt?  Is it some unwritten crime to express our perceptions and have them validated when it concerns PD people... not just here but EVERYWHERE?

Too much discomfort?  Remember when Peck took that woman apart in his book, PEOPLE OF THE LIE?  She was going on and on about how much trouble it was to care for her husband, what would he do without her, how taxed she was at every moment and when he/Peck began steering her to the obviouse,

that she didn;t have to stay and demean this man while building herself up non stop as his savior, she could go  She started falling apart.  Peck put her back together and left her the way she was, bc she was an even bigger mess when her behavior was pointed out.  ::sigh::  Really dizzy now.

Bc it takes less energy on everyone's part to sanction or ignore.... except of course when it keeps causing a pattern of disruption and chaos, that is.... which is my original point, btw.  

The pattern repeats and it seems fairly obviouse to everyone...... I resent that my pointing it out is perceived to be the original cause of disruption and discord, if that's whats really happening, and I'm not sure it is at this point, lol.

I'm interested in figuring out how to avoid that pattern, of being dismissed or having my perceptions dismissed,in the future and I suppose this is a learning ground..... I don't think this windmill is a great tall monster  ::shaking head::

What can be gained by having a group provide understanding and validation of our perceptions?

Is it important and if so.... why?

What's missing and what's been lost if the group doesn't choose to validate when one's right?

When one's wrong?

I'm truly baffled and thinking about diving into the book store with vigor for a while: )

[lighter]

::waving to CB::

Up so early: )

I had trouble keeping the choices straight but.... your post really has me thinking about stuff, lol. 

[lighter]

Oh no!  CB...... get some of those really expensive 3M waterproof bandaids and don't take it off till everything's healed

I hate it when I get a cut or burn on my hand...... takes forever to get over but those bandaids really help.... at least if I wear them while doingthigns that re injure or break it open. 

Thanks for the post..... I'm following you and I understand.

[lighter]

I read your post 3 times Lupita.... and each time I got something different.

I think you have a lot to offer everybody, including yourself.

Don't be afraid to speak your mind..... I like what you're thinking.

You make sense and I think you're having better luck with observer mode.

[Hopalong]

My friends, we are gathered here today
to celebrate the remarkable life of Ms. Ceebee Fingerchunk.
Ms. Fingerchunk was an unusual digit: she knew how to
make the most extraordinary piquant beverage from bitter fruit.
She gave ade and comfort with such generosity of spirit that
people from miles around--even from other states--would ship
her their lemons in order to receive the special Fingerchunk
Pale Ale that only she knew how to brew.

Ms. Fingerchunk was celebrated among her peers for her
charming habit of dancing the meringue in her kitchen,
calling out directions to her happy sous chefs, puncturing
and punctuating them (the directions, not the sous chefs)
with cheerful Oles! They (the sous chefs, not the directions) loved and
trusted Ms. Fingerchunk, and even when they couldn't imagine
how her subtle recipes would turn out, they set to their tasks
with a will.

And despite her mighty reputation in the great kitchens of
North and Central and South America, and the Antarctic,
Ms. Fingerchunk was neither an aloof nor an irascible master chef.
She ran her aromatic domain as a democracy, even though
she believed in socialized surgery. She was beloved among her
peers and minions for her habit of bellying up to the block with a will,
dicing and chopping and slicing and as we know, she gave it her all.

Let us now have a moment of silence for Ceebee Fingerchunk.
Her absence will leave us quite sore for a time. She will be missed.