Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?

[JustKathy]

I got up this morning waiting for the dreaded Christmas call from Co-F. I had considered unplugging the machine and just letting it ring, but he would have kept calling back.

Before I made the decision to go NC with him, I gave him the chance to make it right, and he refused, so this is HIS choice. Unlike the abuse he inflicted on me as a child, the things he's done in recent years were, and still are, reversible (disinheriting me, etc.). My husband told him that if he didn’t do right by his daughter that neither one of us would take his calls again. He could have stood up and proven that he loves me, but he didn't. He chose to excuse it away with, "You know how Kathy's mother is."

Now he calls sounding all weepy and teary, crying into the phone that he doesn't understand why we won't take his calls, and that he wants to talk to his daughter because "he isn’t getting any younger."

Does he REALLY not get it? When he took me out of his will he taunted me with it and made it clear that it was a punishment for "hurting" my mother. What goes on in the minds of these people? I just wish I could understand. My husband could not have made it any clearer. He told Co-F, while I was crying hysterically in the background, "If you do NOT make things right by your daughter, then please stop calling, as neither one of us is comfortable making small talk with a man who would rip his own child's heart out."

I want to feel bad for him because he's 80, and he's crying into the phone, but he knows how to fix things, and he's refusing. Honestly, does he really think that you can throw your children under the bus and that they'll still stick around and care for you in your old age? What is WRONG with them?

[Lupita]

I was trying to respond to your post but I would like to ask you a question.

What is Co from Co-spouses? What is Co from Co-F?

What does your father claim that you did to hurt your mother?

I can imagine how you feel. My heart goes out to you.

[JustKathy]

Thanks Lupita. My father is totally co-dependent to my NM. He doesn't seem to understand or "get" that my mother abused be (which was done with his help). He thinks it's all MY fault. My NM abused me, I never got along with her as a result, so she says that I hurt her, and he's just repeating that and defending her. He told my husband that he disinherited me (among other things) at NM's insistence because of "that thing Kathy has with her mother." He doesn't even get what "that thing" is.

He just called a second time, crying, and saying that he doesn't understand why we won't talk to him. Is he really that stupid, or is he putting on an act, just like NM does? Or has he finally figured out that he's pushed his children away from him in an effort to protect his wife, and now she's dying, and he's going to be left alone. If it really is sinking in, it's not too late to fix it, but he won't. His #1 priority (besides taking care of NM) is my brother, the GC. His wonderful son, who for the third straight year, was a no-show at the family Christmas.

[Lupita]

This kind of people do not change. Of course God makes miracles.But normally, these people do not change and they believe their own fantasies. If your mother is claiming you hurt her, she probably believes you hurt her and your father believes it too.

It is very sad and I feel very sorry for you. My younger brother is the golden child too. And he really believes that my motehr loves him more because he is a better person than me. They believe it and there is nothing I can do about it.

That is the reason I came to USA. To put a distance between them and me. It was hurting too much.

I think you might consider the possibility to get far from them so they do not hurt you anymore. The closer you are the more it will hurt.

I am so sorry Kathy. So sorry. Would you like to count your blessings here? It seems that you have a husband who loves you. That is a gift from God. I would do anything to have a husband who loved me. Do you have other things? Do you have children?

My heart goes out to you. I am sure you are hurting inside your heart. I t gives you a hole in the heart. An emptiness that never gets filled with anything.

[JustKathy]

Thanks Lupita. I don't have any kids, and my husband is far from loving. He does support me when my N parents cause trouble, but the marriage isn't very solid. Right now I'm living in Arizona, while my parents are in in CA, but I plan on moving back to CA soon. I'm seriously considering moving and not telling any family members where I've gone. That will stop them from sending unwanted gifts and letters, and stop the unwanted phone calls.

I just wish I could stop feeling bad about this. I didn't feel at all bad about going NC with my mother, since she abused me for so many years, but I always made excuses for my father - that he was brainwashed by NM, couldn't help it, and so on. It's only been in the last few years that I've come to see him for what he really is. His phone calls ruined my entire day. He sounds so sad on the phone, but he knows what he can do to fix things, and he refuses. He won't ever make things right, because to do so would mean defying NM, and he would rather hurt his children than go against her. Textbook enabling spouse.

[sKePTiKal]

Hey Kathy - I tried replying a couple times yesterday but no-go. Not sure what happened.

But anyway: if I'm hearing you correctly, it's how you feel about maintaining your NC boundary with your Dad that's bothering you, right? You have caught on to his "poor, pathetic victim" role in all this, it sounds like... and how he seems to be making a choice between the bioNic "Queen" and you. I say "seems"... because from his perspective he might feel like he has no choice. Her highness may have him so tied up - emotionally, legally, socially - that he feels totally helpless and without independent thought or volition. It is a bit of an odd twist that he'd be seeking out the scapegoat in the FOO for acknowledgement of his victimhood - and maybe that's just misery loves company... or maybe he's trying to lessen his misery by off-loading; dumping it on you... or maybe that's the ultimate result of dysfunction; don't know.

I think - in your reality - you see that he does have a choice. In his reality, he may not - not without risking becoming the target of her highness, himself. Not without risking the set of trade-offs he's already made with her... to be able to co-exist, this long with her. At 80, he probably doesn't have the energy to grow out of his  victim/abetting identity or life circumstances... not without help. And you're right; the "terror of the situation" is dawning on him...

But enough about him!!!!! We can sift through that clumping cat litter ad nauseum and it still doesn't address you and your feelings.

That's the big thing in what you've posted... the question behind the anger and irritation and hurt. It's like you're doubting your decision to go NC with him; as if you think you MIGHT be, being as unreasonable as the old witch is. (I don't think that's the case... but that won't make it go away, either.) So, lets talk about odds; probability; likelihood... for the sake of discussion, let's just say there's a 50-50 chance that you might be able to actually connect with your Dad's real, authentic self... that he has a desire to apologize or at minimum, explain (it's not possible to know without actually meeting and going through with it)... and that this would be a healing meeting and connection for you. It isn't without the risk of the other half of the odds - which is that he's just looking for someone to take pity on his self-induced victimhood and absolve him of all the "coulda, shoulda, woulda's" that he's ignored all these years.

To my way of thinking, knowing just what he wants, could be a useful piece of information for you. Right now, you don't know. For sure. A face to face meeting does involve making yourself vulnerable - without throwing yourself immediately into the drama & entanglement again. And that's a whole lot easier said than done - even if you've been practicing! But - if you are willing to "release the outcome" of the meeting... not stake "everything" on what you really hope, wish, expect from him... and also to let various old arrows and barbs and accusations just bounce off (not react to them)...

... then it might be possible to resolve that one bit of self-doubt. Still - easier said than done and I only have some experience with it; can't say I've mastered it; I've taken my share of lumps for "forgetting" that I'm not dealing with "normal" people; they know just when & where to push those old anger or pain buttons, you know? I very carefully pick time/place for these encounters. If I'm not up to it... I postpone dealing with them. I try to always have a third party along, too. Someone to provide feedback to me on what I think I'm dealing with and mediate, if necessary. I try to define for myself exactly what I want/need out of the encounter... and also what is "off limits". It is, in the words of Jack Sparrow, a "parlay" between hostile forces. It's a structured interaction.

Sometimes, it's necessary  to break NC, for peace of mind. Just make sure you have your exit well planned and rehearsed!

[JustKathy]

Thanks Amber. I spent all day yesterday beating this one to death, and finally decided to leave things as they are. If I called him back, or even met with him, I know I would be left with the same frustrations that I have been dealing with for several decades now. He'll just go into his Firest Gump loop, start rambling about the fruit market, and never address the problems at hand. I think his "real self" went away 55 years ago and isn't coming back.

I do believe that he may have had a sudden reality check. I have always been the only child who would have been willing to provide elder care for him, and he may be finally seeing that. My father spent a lifetime giving my brother everything he needed, with the idea being that his GC would become successful and reciprocate later in life. Unfortunately, my parents went so far overboard in giving him an ivy league education, free cars, a house, you name it, that he took it all for granted and grew into a selfish bastard who always has his hands out, and has no use for anyone who isn't giving him free stuff. I finally stopped buying him Christmas gifts after years of him taking the goods like I owed it to him, never thanking me, and never ever giving me a gift in return. I think Co-F has finally "gotten" that his precious boy is NOT going to be there for him in his old age (though despite that, he is still the sole heir and has been given all valuable family heirlooms while my parents are still alive, so that I cannot contest the will).

When my father calls, he usually only wants to speak to my husband. He doesn't know how much hubby makes, but based on us having a pretty good lifestyle, I think Co-F believes that hubby has a great paying job and that we are very well off (we're pretty middle class, but my husband is one of those who lives beyond his means, so on the surface we look like we're living very well). So F has a son who won't visit him or take his calls, a second daughter who is battling cancer and barely able to care for herself, and his N wife, who is dying of cancer. That leaves me, who currently has a five bedroom luxury home and (in his eyes) a highly paid husband. I think he's scared of ending up alone and broke, and he just realized that I might be his meal ticket.

Back to connecting with his "real, authentic self," I don't think that possible. Since I was a child, I've never seen him display any independent thought. Whatever person he used to be died when he married his N wife and became her droid. He has been hurting me my entire life. When I was 18 and homeless, I asked him for a little money for food, and he said "Your mother says I can't give you money." She would never have known if he had reached into his wallet and given me a $20 bill, but he was so afraid that he would be struck by lightning for defying her, he let me starve. I honestly don't believe that his real self is there anymore.

If he's refusing to do right by me out of fear of crossing the Queen, well, she's supposed to be dying of cancer, and he'll soon be free to do as he pleases. I talked to my therapist about this, because my feeling is that he can certainly rewrite his will after she's gone, and retrieve some of the family heirlooms that NM made him give to the GC just to stick it to me. My T's feeling is that even though he CAN make these changes, he won't. People who are this co-dependent will never defy the controlling spouse, even after they have died. Their commitment to this person can never be broken, even in death. I have to say I agree with her. Even after NM is gone, he will never cross her and go against her wishes. Ain't gonna happen.

Kathy

[Hopalong]

Hi Kathy,

I do support you and have resonated with many parts of your story over time...
I am struggling with this because I find I identify more with him (the parent) so I am sad about his sobbing. I know you were abused by your Nmother, but do you blame your Nfather for the terms of your Nmother's will? How could he make her change her own will if she didn't want to? Or perhaps they have a joint will. (Is that it? They have a joint will and she ordered him to leave you out of it?)

Are you expecting him, at age 80, to have the mother of all battles with his spouse to get her to leave you money? Do you feel it is his obligation to set her aside now, to undo the formula of his life? I remember that your mother gave your father's Emmy to your brother, the GC. I do get it.

I just never know exactly what people mean by "disinherit" or "disown" because that's vague, and the same issue of inheritance has torn what remained of my family apart. The specific thing I asked my Nmother not to do (leave me legally entangled with my brother) -- she did anyway. I did get to a point of compassion and forgiveness before she died, just because watching an old person suffer physically and die makes them into something different...they are a big wrinkly child. They are vulnerable and dependent at the close of life and they can be abused and hurt just as children can.

The roles reverse at some point, they just do. Then it's a question of what the more powerful person is doing. Youth is more powerful than age.

I just keep thinking, the old man is sobbing because his heart is broken, he wants to see his child. And then to have his son-in-law being a gatekeeper, telling him he has to "do right" by you before you'll speak to him? You're not weak like your father.

I don't get it. He's old and vulnerable and it sounds as though you won't go near him because of money.

I would never advise you to visit or chat with or cooperate with your mother. But your Dad just doesn't sound like an evil villaiN, and to me (as a parent who's been rejected) he sounds like a person who's being terribly hurt.

I am terribly hurt by my daughter's sense of entitlement. To my money, to more. I feel it's a generational failing. I didn't know that by doting on her so much she'd grow up feeling entitled. Or believing that love is transactional.

I can tell you that often when I hear from her, it's because she wants money, in one form or another. I spent some time Christmas Eve and Christmas Day sobbing, too.

So I may be missing something (I do believe in boundaries and in No Contact when that's right for health and sanity). Just every time I read about your father, I feel compassion for him and wish you would figure out whether you could love and forgive him outside of the issue of getting money.

love,
Hops

[JustKathy]

I don't get it. He's old and vulnerable and it sounds as though you won't go near him because of money.

Thanks Hops. I guess I need to make it clear that this has NOTHING to do with money. They have no money left, having given it all to the GC. This is about love (or lack thereof), not money.

Also, this is not me suddenly beating up on an old man. The will, and the thing with the Emmy, were the final straws in 50 years of abuse. He has acted as NM's hatchet man since the day I was born, and did some very cruel things to me. When I was a young child, he constantly "spanked" me with his belt on NM's orders. She made up stories about me being a bad girl, and despite my pleading with him and telling him that she was lying, I was whipped in front of my brother and sister (neither who were ever spanked themselves). When I was a teen, I was frequently denied medical care, again on NMs orders. I was denied treatment for my chronic bronchitis as a punishment for "smoking cigarettes" ( something I never did), and was denied treatment for very painful and chronic tonsillitis, as a punishment for "kissing boys." How does a father sit and watch his child suffer from a serious infection, and do nothing because his wife has given the orders? Thank goodness for a compassionate Aunt (NM's sister) who works in pharmaceutical research. She snuck me some cough medicine to help with my bronchitis, and told me not to tell M. She knew what was going on. SHE helped me.

As for the will, it's a joint will, though NM never worked a day in her life, so it's more or less HIS will. He apparently removed me years ago after I went NC with her. She demanded that he remove me out of retaliation, and he defended that decision. He thinks this is about money, and I've told him over and over, I do not want his money, I want his LOVE. It's all I've ever wanted. As far as I'm concerned, when you have three children, and you remove one from the will, AND rub it in their face that it was done as an act of revenge, well, you just disowned that child. And you sure as heck do not love that child. But as I said, they have no money left that I can see. This is not not not about money. I don't care about money, and even if they had money, it's dirty money and I don't want it. I am hurt solely by a final act of revenge against a child who was tormented so badly that she considered suicide as a teen. They could leave me a billion dollars and it would not begin to compenesate for what was done to me.

Believe me, whatever hurt he may be feeling right now is nothing compared to the 50 years of torment that I was subjected to. My father was an enabling spouse who willingly hurt his daughter to protect his Queen. He is NO victim here.

[Guest]

Hi Kathy
Yes, he really doesn't get it. How could he, after all these years living that alternative reality?
He doesn't understand why you won't talk to him - why? Because in his reality he hasn't changed - nothing has changed - but now you're not talking to him - so he won't understand that. In other words, yeah, it's not his fault in his eyes, so he can sound confused.

However. He's the parent and you're the child and always have been. With what you've suffered, quite frankly I'd disappear off their radar. They'll cope one way or another and if he doesn't have a phone number, he can't make the calls. If he needs compassion/help at some point, maybe someone else - even a charity -can provide it. It's not up to you.

Chilldren are more attached to their parents, than parents are to children. I've come to think this is probably true and for good reasons. People like us have to give up the most basic attachment and see these people for what they are.

He doesn't get it. He doesn't want to get it.

[Hopalong]

I apologize for being so slow to understand, Kathy. My perception is altered by my own situation. I'm sorry.

I didn't know he whipped you on her orders. It does make things more clear that it's a joint will--but if as you say, all the money is already willed to your brother and you've been cut out (and had that explained, cruelly, to you)--then you're right, it's not about money.

Damn, I'm starting to think inheritance should never ever be discussed with kids. Horrible.

I know what you're saying. You want love, not money. The Emmy was the last, symbolic hurt. And you are NOT asking him to change his will again, you no longer care about the financial inheritance. That's not what your husband meant when he said your father needs to "do right by his child."

You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?

I wish he could do that. I wish I knew there was also some real grief for his child in his tears. Maybe the holidays are hurting him too. But he is experiencing the consequences of having hurt and abandoned you.

I am so very sorry. You are in great pain, he is in great pain. I wish there were a way.

with love and compassion,
Hops

[JustKathy]

You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?

EXACTLY. I don't want or expect him to rewrite his will. In all honesty, I never expected to be left a dime in the first place. The day my brother came out of the womb with a penis, I knew that he would be sole heir.  When I was told that I was not in the will, my reaction was pretty much, "Yeah, tell me something I don't know." What I was NOT expecting was the reason. If I had been told that my brother was sole heir because he was their favorite child, I probably would have shrugged it of with "Duh, I know." But when you're told that you were removed from the will as act of retaliation, that's a fresh kind of cruel.

Guest, thank you so much for your wonderful insight as well. I think you really nailed it when you said that F has lived for so many years in an alternative reality. I DO want to disappear off their radar. We're supposed to be relocating back to California soon, and I'm at the point where I just want to vanish, move, let them call and get a recording that my number is no longer in service. Really, what have I got to lose but a N mother, a father who never loved me, a brother who washed his hands of me because I didn't give him expensive enough gifts, and a sister who won't return my calls or letters because "Mom said I'm not allowed to talk to you."

Every year, Christmas Day is a day of torment for me. The migraines start in November, in anticipation of what's to come. I'm just done with it, done with THEM, the entire FOO.

Kathy

[JustKathy]

My husband just reminded me of something I hadn't even thought of. For the last few years, my father hasn't even wanted to talk to me when he calls. He only ever wants to talk to hubby to complain about his prostate problems. Hubby is a prostate cancer survivor, and apparently was giving F the sympathy he craved. Several times he would ask F if he wanted to talk to me before he hung up, and the reply would be, "Ah, no, that's okay. Just tell Kathy I said Hi."

Hubby thinks that my father is upset because he wants someone to commiserate with about his health problems. He's not allowed to complain about his health in front of NM, since her cancer is the ONLY medical issue that is important and no one else is permitted to talk about their own issues. My brother never takes his calls, and he can't really talk to my sister about his prostate, so hubby is it. The message he left on the machine yesterday started out with, "Hi Dave. Merry Christmas. And oh, Hi Kathy." I'm an afterthought. He's a lifelong hypochondriac who needs a sounding board, and hubby is it. He's not upset about losing his daughter, he's upset about losing his son-in-law.

[BonesMS]

Morning, JustKathy.

I've been thinking....with the technology that is available today, couldn't you block the calls from the Blockhead?

Bones

[Guest]

Hi Kathy

I'm an afterthought.

That's very sad. From what your husband says, it sounds correct too. ((((((Kathy))))))

I'm glad your H reminded you of this too. Are you? It's an important fact.

In your first post you said that you wanted to feel bad for him. You can. He's a 'sad' person. But you can't do that at your own expense. You can feel bad for him and know that however you feel it will not affect him one bit. If you want to feel bad for him because you want some connection with him, a normal connection, you probably have to feel very sad for yourself instead, because that connection isn't going to happen.

He sounds exceptionally selfish, inconsiderate and using to me.