Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?

[Redhead Erin]

You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?

Right there in a nutshell, isn't that what we all want?

[JustKathy]

I've been thinking....with the technology that is available today, couldn't you block the calls from the Blockhead?

I could block their calls, but I won't. If I do something like that it would give NM some great ammunition to use in her smear campaign, that I'm so mean to them, I've blocked their calls. Better to just not answer the phone.

He sounds exceptionally selfish, inconsiderate and using to me.

You know, now that I've had a few days to think about this, it's not the first time he has used the sobbing to get what he wants. He did it once before, and was successful in manipulating us. He called two years ago, again sobbing, to tell me that NM had inoperable lung cancer. She had a tumor against her heart, could barely breathe, and had a prognosis of one month to live. He begged hubby and I to send her a card because it was her dying wish to hear from her daughter before she died. We did it. We bought the card and wrote her a nice letter, and she got the satisfaction of knowing that she had gotten her way. Two years later, NM is alive and well, so much so that my father never even mentions her "terminal cancer." Long story short, he knows from experience that he can get his way with the sobbing, so now I really have to wonder if he was just doing what he believed would get me to pick up the phone, only to make small talk and complain about his prostate.

[Guest]

People will do what they need to do to get what they want - if they aren't interested one iota in what anyone else needs or wants or thinks or feels.....sigh.

They will do what they think will work to get what they want.

It is not about the real you, Kathy, it is about getting what they want from an available source. You could be anyone, so long as you can meet some need.

I guess we have to get sick of being used all the time.

[Guest]

You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?

Right there in a nutshell, isn't that what we all want?

Hi Erin,
actually, no it isn't what I want. They're just words. edit I would like abusers removed off the planet. ignore that. The answer is still no, it isn't what we all want.

[JustKathy]

Agreed. As much as I'd love to hear this said to me, actions speak louder than words. Even if my NM or Co-F uttered those words, they would be meaningless if they never backed them up. Otherwise, they're just words. It's like an abuser beating his wife and saying "I'm sorry." Don't say you're sorry. Stop beating your wife and SHOW her that you're sorry.

[BonesMS]

I've been thinking....with the technology that is available today, couldn't you block the calls from the Blockhead?

I could block their calls, but I won't. If I do something like that it would give NM some great ammunition to use in her smear campaign, that I'm so mean to them, I've blocked their calls. Better to just not answer the phone.

He sounds exceptionally selfish, inconsiderate and using to me.

You know, now that I've had a few days to think about this, it's not the first time he has used the sobbing to get what he wants. He did it once before, and was successful in manipulating us. He called two years ago, again sobbing, to tell me that NM had inoperable lung cancer. She had a tumor against her heart, could barely breathe, and had a prognosis of one month to live. He begged hubby and I to send her a card because it was her dying wish to hear from her daughter before she died. We did it. We bought the card and wrote her a nice letter, and she got the satisfaction of knowing that she had gotten her way. Two years later, NM is alive and well, so much so that my father never even mentions her "terminal cancer." Long story short, he knows from experience that he can get his way with the sobbing, so now I really have to wonder if he was just doing what he believed would get me to pick up the phone, only to make small talk and complain about his prostate.

With both Nwomb-Donor and NSperm-Donor, it is a No-Win situation.  I bet that NWomb-Donor will continue to smear you no matter what you do or don't do.  I learned that lesson the hard way with my own FOO.  If you take their calls, they continue to abuse you.  If you let the machine take the calls and not respond, they continue to abuse you.  If you visit, they continue to abuse you.  If you don't visit, they continue to abuse you.  If you move far away and disconnect the number, they continue to abuse you.  If you stay where you are, they continue to abuse you.  No matter what you do or don't do, they will continue to abuse you because they can.  For my situation, I had to decide, which is the lesser of the two evils...being isolated from them which guaranteed that I would no longer be their punching bag, or continuing contact and be the continuing target of their smear campaigns.  How valuable is my mental, psychological, emotional health?  That is the question.

Bones

[Guest]

Agreed Bones.

Remove yourself (ourselves) from their range. Work on the N parents in our own heads. Realise that those in our heads and those in the real world are different things. Get to grips with the reality of what they really are. Marry those facts with what's in our heads. Rewire the images and associations in our heads, override any remaining 'soft' spots, root them out and make them face reality.

Meeting with the N parents after rewiring - to prove reality - is a possibility, IF there is any good reason. otherwise, they're gone I think. Except in their own heads of course, but by then, what's in their heads doesn't affect us.

Did I just write a recipe?

[sKePTiKal]

Yes, it's a recipe! and it sounds most attractive Guest!

The critical piece, to my way of thinking, is rooting out the Nparents from our own minds. The subversion and brainwashing can be so "complete" that I've discovered that I'm abusing myself... simply by carrying out the abuse of old tapes in my head. And it's these old tapes that generate misery for me... guilt... feeling badly...

if I sit down and write out exactly what I've done for my bioNic FOO ... and what they've done for me... for the last thirty years: their side is rather short. I did what I thought I "should" do... because of the family connection... and I might as well have

been
pissing
in the
wind

So, 'scuse me while I ignore the old tapes in my head, too.

[debkor]

No I don't think they really get it.  I think they will throw you under the bus (children) because they are children themselves.. Yep kids who can love but not grown up enough (who said) spit in the offending parent's eye.

Now look what you made (mom or dad) do and I'm not getting in trouble for you (cause I am powerless) little ole (big can love kid) but mommy/or daddy  will take it out on me.  Some where   I think they are the true (Golden Child) to the (Big N Child) and guess who's going under the bus?  Yep, you got it.

So yes I hold both parent's responsible but really....Can we?  Are either of them truly grown up (enough) to raise and parent (thier own children)?

Or do we hold this F'd up disorder responsible?  Well we can't change it.  We can't fix it.  And yeah at this point...after years, and years, and years, even of the Co-parent not having a clue....It's because they don't really get (THEY ARE CHILDREN AND JUST AS VICTIMIZED) as the real children.  They are as powerless to stand up and spit in the other parent's eye (as even the real children were at one time). 

And here are the real children....on here!   With power....not victim any longer.   Wondering why (the other parent) didn't stand up and take charge!

Could they really?

That is what I wonder?

I don't think so!

They were never grown up enough to stand up to the (bully kid).

So should we hold them accountable?  Yes.  Accountable for thier disorder but hell I don't know (of any change) and if professionals can't help them....We sure can't.

So I don't think we have any other choice (or we do) other then to let it go....Be mad ....at the disorder.  And let it go.

You can accept the (disorder) not the behavior. 

At this point in our lives (I am assuming we all are middle aged and over) that with one parent or a Co-parent ....It's just not normal.  And we can be mad at the Not Normal Parent's (whatever disorder) they have and whom we wanted to love and be loved by.

And it really is not personal (as personal as it is to us).

Nope don't think they get it.

Love
Deb

[Guest]

Well said Amber.

Kathy.......what do you think?

You can accept the (disorder) not the behavior. 

Deb says it too. And I agree, accepting that it is not personal is a major part, I think.

They don't give a stuff about us, so why do we give a stuff about them and their behaviour (if we do)?

I don't give a stuff any more but it's taken a very long time and some awful events, but hey, I got there. *shrugs*

[JustKathy]

You've all made some very good points. Amber, what you said about making the list sure gave me something to think about. Yes, if I made a list spanning the last 30 years, with the things they've done FOR me on one side, and the things they've done TO me on the other, it would be a very imbalanced list. In fact, I think I could work at it for several nights straight and not think of a single thing they ever for FOR me. Even things like giving me Christmas gifts were done with an ulterior motive. My mother never gave me a gift because I would get something out of it. She gave me gifts because SHE could get something out of it.

Guest, I get what you're saying about not giving a crap, and that it CAN be done, albeit over a long period of time. I've been partly successful in that area. I can honestly say that at this point in my life I've completely and totally quit caring about NM. It took decades, but I'm pretty certain that if she died tomorrow, the only emotion I would feel would be relief. With my Co-F, I feel like I'm only just starting the process. I knew my NM had some kind of mental illness by the time I reached high school, but it's only been in the last few years that I've realized my father is also mentally unbalanced. I never knew that there was a disorder called co-dependency until about five years ago, from being on this board and talking to therapists, and a whole lot of research. I spent 30 years making excuses for him, convincing myself that he was brainwashed, even questioning if he might be mildly retarded. So the process that I went through with NM has sort of started all over again. That said, I'm pretty certain that I'll come to terms with it pretty quickly. This time around, it won't be a decades long learning process. It's like watching a movie, then a few years later, watching the sequel. You already know what to expect. That might be a weird analogy, but sometimes (most times) I have a very hard time putting these things into words.

[Hopalong]

You really HAVE told this story, Kathy, and told it well.

It has shape and narrative and conclusion.

You have written yourself right out of their maddening script and you're writing YOUR story now.

It is powerful. And promising. And is just going to get better and better.

It's a privilege to be your witness.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I guess I didn't say what I was trying to say, all that clearly about the list idea - not that it's that big a difference.

But, the two columns on the list are what they did "for" me (regardless of motive/intention) and what I did "for" them... again regardless of motive/intention. Coz I could argue that I had better motives - but that's so subjective it's not worth going there. The point being that I invested a hell of a lot more time & energy in trying to create, maintain, and feed a relationship with people who didn't want the same thing... or couldn't "go there" and hold up their end of the relationship. Most of know better than to do this, with non-FOO people.

It is ONLY because I saw "family" as being something sacred and worth sacrificing everything to maintain (according to my version of societal traditions, norms, and images we're inundated with about how things are "supposed" to be) that I volunteered to be the one "responsible" for at least trying to keep the appearances of said "supposed to be" going. Above and beyond the call of duty, even. At a very high cost to myself. For zippo back.

[and maybe it's that idea that families are sacred that needs to be made relevant for "today"; or maybe it's an ideal that no family lives up to... we could address that philosophically, but in another topic]

Talk about beating a dead horse!!! Absolutely NOTHING has changed with them. And I beat that horse for years and years and years. And one of the "hangovers" from that, is a tendency to make them the subject of my thoughts & feelings - rehashing old crap, trying to sort out & diagnose what their problem is, and licking old wounds... and trying to be oh so careful not to be blindsided in the present or future. I can be a tad paranoid about this, even tho' it's supposedly not paranoia if it actually happens (hee-hee!). I've finally gotten to the point that I don't apply all this to anyone else except my FOO. It's a bit of progress, for sure; and extremely helpful.

But the fact is, I still spend WAYYYYY too much of me and too many present moments letting them occupy my thoughts and feelings. I might even deny I do this... but HA-HA-HAHA-HA!! I sure as hell do this. And I fool myself, quite a bit, about the reasons why I do this... make excuses; rationalize it. And I'm getting pretty frustrated with it now. It just gets in the way of me consciously moving ahead... moving on... and doing the things I know I need to do..... for me. If I'm letting the old crap dominate my time and thoughts & manipulate my feelings... I'm "full"... and nothing else can get in. There's just no room for it.

I've been really stubbornly hanging on to that old stuff; hanging on to the validation that I finally got for going through this experience - it was something that finally made me "important" - to me. And I couldn't ever describe or define what "let it go" consisted of. Probably coz it wasn't a process or something complex (I like sorting out mysteries and hard problems). It was simply that I needed to focus my attention and time on something else - fill myself up with something else... so there's no room for processing, rehashing - and being vulnerable to - the old crap.

And then, their side of the list just doesn't matter... at least, as much.

[Guest]

Kathy
watching the sequel makes perfect sense to me. I'm sure it will be much quicker for you this time too!

Amber
yeah, "families! Who needs them?!". These people who are blood-related...oh...the thought of the convo makes me tired. It's factually meaningless, blood-relations, but it ain't facts of course.

I've finally gotten to the point that I don't apply all this to anyone else except my FOO.

Hmm. Okay you mean the obsessing, I get it. But I apply a lot of, er, how I've changed my views, to others, and sometimes it is ...I don't know. I end up thinking what's the point. People, many many, nearly all people it seems some days, are so screwed up, one way or another. Some vague blood-ish relations I see going down such a mad path and although I know what I could do, a tiny word here and there...pointless. Of course there's great liberty in seeing that. It can make me smile. Yeah, well, that's me talked out! Equilibrium of sorts. Interesting: I didn't realise before that Librium came from that. Okay I have to go and potter now. I like the manic laughter btw.

[JustKathy]

But, the two columns on the list are what they did "for" me (regardless of motive/intention) and what I did "for" them... again regardless of motive/intention.

Okay, I misunderstood, though this exercise would yield the same basic results. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about what I've done FOR them, but just since reading your post, yeah, it's a LOT. It's almost scary to think about it. I did spend a heck of a lot of years doing things for my parents, usually in an attempt to win their love. If I made that list, it would be a very unbalanced list, that's for sure.