"Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"

[Redhead Erin]

Hops,

Have you ever tried just making an agreement to talk once a week or so?  Even if you initiated the calls...like maybe you could call her every Saturday morning at 10 am or so.I don't know how far you live from her, but maybe you can take her out for lunch once every so often.  No expectations, jsut food and chit-chat.  Not too invasive, but enough to keep in touch.

It seems like your current system involves a crisis, then a lot of contact in a concentrated amount of time, then overload and pulling back, then avoidance until the next crisis.  So you only share in your daughters life when something bad is happening.  Not much fun for you, painful associations for her.

[Hopalong]

Erin,
Your second paragraph was so insightful. Thank you truly. That really helped me see it another way.

And I like your idea. Since she's now 3 hours away the lunches won't work, but when we're "out of touch"
the method I've reverted to is to simply leave her one voicemail a week, usually on a Sunday afternoon.

I have to make very clear I'm just saying hello...and I also have to be very careful not to insert any
emotional neediness into the message. Not "I miss you" or "I'm worried" (though those are true).
Just do the calm, adult, Mama bear, saying "Just thinking of you, hope everything's fine, things are
fine here, love you. Talk to you later" kind of thing.

At times in the past when the thread was ruptured, that seemed to keep the door open until she
felt like talking to me again.

Your summary, though, was so helpful. I wish I could share that with her. Not sure it'd be wise.
But I will definitely share that with my T...thanks again.

(He mentioned to me that his own adult D, who's been through some terrible stuff, called
him just to arrange lunch one day recently, and they just met and had lunch and enjoyed it.
He was very happy, said he told her that this felt so adult, and he was really pleased.)

xo
Hops

[river]

This thread feels very live for me. 
I specially want to talk to hops now.  First, thanks for the hug back then.  I know what you're saying about not comparing responses one gets, otherwise its like sort of dysfunctional family competition stuff.  But I was in a catch 22, and could say something and be in danger of competing for attention and huggs, (looking like the angry toddler), and saying nothing and feeling ghosted, and that would be repeating pattern for me.   So, I decided to do this differently, and I appreciate the response.   I think you're exactly right when you say, you talked more emotionally and so get a more engaged response. 

And the above exchange perhaps gives me a chance to explain what Im on about when I talk about the 'Disorders of the Self' dynamic.  Ie, its not just about N.ism.   What you described with your D. is really an element of the borderline dynamic, that is relationship based on a crisis or a problem.   This is not to say catastrophically, she has a personality disorder, or is a borderline, as much to say that there is a specific dynamic underlying the way of relating of a borderline, and N or a schizoid, each dynamic gives rise to another dynamic.  I know I have the schizoid dynamic, and I have done the damage that I have done by acting out on that specific one.   Now today I try to relate from real self, not from the disorder, try to break the patterns.   Like you are trying to do with your D., you want to have real, consistent, respectful enjoyable connection with her.  And thats the task.   And for me too, to find healthy, loving ways of relating that dont enable ither of these dynamics, even in theier milder forms.   

The reason I share all this, tho it may seem long winded, is that I trully believe that its important for recovering communiteis to grasp this dynamic just like people need to be wise to Nism and its cunning, baffling destructiveness. 
I feel Im going out on a limb,    I want to share what I see.  I know this understanding can  make all the difference. 

[Hopalong]

Hi River,
I'm petrified of diagnosing my D with anything although various terminology has helped...
thank you for being so thoughtful about it, and sharing what you've learned.

Mostly I find I'm helped when I simplify it a lot. Just get all gentle with myself about what hurts,
what doesn't hurt...and what feels adult or its opposite. And then remember to have compassion
for her too; not get stuck in my own hurt feelings.

In my particular shoes, my current T has helped a lot because he has such a pragmatic
approach...he won't let me fixate on acronyms or diagnostic terminology (I have an anxious tendency to--
always hunting for the evil inner Nspots in myself, for example...) and he always comes down to compassion and
what-works. He's a kind of "good mechanic" T...not very fluent, but knows by listening when an
engine (or relationship) is running well or when it sounds all clogged up.

Sometimes when he sums something up, I feel like I've just heard what "healthy" is.
It has a startling kind of simplicity. So I try to mimic that thinking. It's helpful when I remember to!

I can hear how deeply you're tackling the spectrum of stuff you found in the hand you were
dealt...many kudos for your hard work, River. It has to pay off!

hugs
Hops

[Meh]

Hops, I'm grateful for the way you demonstrate gentleness with your SELF because I think I have begun to do a little of that with my SELF as well probably in part because I can see a few people including your SELF do this.

I can be pretty blunt in general but also with my SELF. Always felt like I had to be hard to cut through all the nonsense.
There is probably a bit of zen balance to be learned in that (gentle and hard/strong)....

On the topic of simplicity, I think YES!, when I experience something that feels healthy and "normal" there is an EASY simplicity to it.
Maybe it's because in the company of certain people we don't have to defend ourselves so much or go into our controlling habits and stuff, don't have to apologize for ourselves.

Simplicity is something that I know I personally need more of...that is why I grabbed a book off of the free book shelf a few weeks ago called "Keep it Simple Stupid", It is sort of biblical. If only simplicity was simple.

Yeah, as I was weeding through my psychic clutter....I thought to myself "This is too damn complicated in there like a big tangled ball of a hundred different strings". How NICE it must be to NOT feel all tangled up!

[Meh]

Hi River:
Did you have recommendations for books to read about this subject?

This topic is really interesting to me, I would like to learn more about this dynamic that is based on a crisis or a problem. Crisis and problem appears to be a constant in my mother's relationships and I saw my brother go through one crisis after another a few years ago and my mother essentially fueled it. NOW I am pretty much in ongoing crisis.

When I saw it happening with my brother I attributed the CRISIS behaviour to his alcoholism. But now that I am in the role of the person in crisis I think it has less to do with Alcoholism. (The only time I get drunk is like once or twice a year when I am at my relatives.) I have to justify it. I figure I will drink as an attempt to relate to them not really because I crave it...after a few nights at my mother's place I can't stand to see alcohol anymore...feel like I need to do a fasting detox routine or something because it physically wears me out.

It is confusing because of the alcoholism in my family but I think it is more useful to look at the Narcissism etc...rather then the alcoholism. I don't know, it just seems that alcoholism is more of a symptom of the Narcissism. Anyways. No wonder nothing is SIMPLE.

It is sometimes so ridiculous. When I was over house sitting at my mother's place...I had an uneventful day, she came home for the evening, I spent the night there with her while her husband was away hunting. Right before she goes to bed she starts trying to argue with me because I left a banana peel in her car. (YES, I did leave a single banana peel in her car). But I don't think that one thing is really argument worthy...it's sort of an excuse. So I can see her getting all ready to flip out and she is starting to tell me how horrible and rude and inconsiderate I am (after I spent the previous few days housesitting and dog sitting for her because she didn't want to take dog to kennel) this was also after she had maybe 4 glasses of wine....I just said to her "GOOD NIGHT "Nar-Ma's Name"...had to repeat this phrase 3 times. She turned around and went to sleep. I'm getting better at not arguing with her but the weird whole-family dynamic is beyond me.  I mean a banana peel in the car doesnt = horrible person. Doesnt even equal slob  really because I put all her dirty dishes in dishwasher and cleaned up her kitchen. I have always felt that somewhere deep down inside that I am just a horrible person!

I try to stay away from diagnosing people except in my mother's case I really just needed a way to figure out what the problem was so I did end up diagnosing/labeling her in my own mind. Maybe I should even venture to say she is an alcoholic even though I always reserved that distinction for her husband and my brother.

Funny thing is I'm nice when I'm (rarely) drunk. Maybe mean alcoholics almost always have a personality disorder. I'm sort of rambling here going into my own thing. Excuse me.

'Disorders of the Self' dynamic.  Ie, its not just about N.ism.   What you described with your D. is really an element of the borderline dynamic, that is relationship based on a crisis or a problem.   This is not to say catastrophically, she has a personality disorder, or is a borderline, as much to say that there is a specific dynamic underlying the way of relating of a borderline, and N or a schizoid, each dynamic gives rise to another dynamic.  I know I have the schizoid dynamic, and I have done the damage that I have done by acting out on that specific one.   Now today I try to relate from real self, not from the disorder, try to break the patterns.   Like you are trying to do with your D., you want to have real, consistent, respectful enjoyable connection with her.  And thats the task.   And for me too, to find healthy, loving ways of relating that don't enable either of these dynamics, even in theier milder forms.  

[Meh]

"I wonder if Alcoholics almost always have a personality disorder".

Does anybody else have any thoughts on this. Is anybody else's Narcissist also a substance abuser of some sorts or is it just my family?

I'm going to end this here because I'm hijacking the thread maybe.

Weird thing is Alcoholics and Narcissists seem to say the same mean spirited type things. Also the alcoholics don't even have to be drunk to say the mean things?

I mean why do they say it? Because they NEED to hurt us? They NEED our self esteem to be low? So they can continue to feel like they are in control..

Self Esteem is such a deep thing right. I went to a class about self-esteem AND it was so topical it didn't really help. Fixing out self-esteem requires like some kind of intense psychic surgery of sorts!!!!! Or I guess at least someone SMART and CAREFUL enough to understand. That is rare, I know I can't begrudge those who do not understand...but also I have to stand up for myself in the face of the ones who don't get it.

[river]

Hi Hops and Boat,
Im goint to try to keep it simple (dont laugh).   
For me its a way of understanding the internal dynamics that  motivate a person, I was really surprised myself when I learnt this stuff as to how much I began to see people did fall into these basic character types.    I see it in highly respected professionals, in anyone really.   But most of all, I started by seeing in in myself, then my partners, then my foo, and on.   I am also a recovering addict, and Boat, yeah, for me it was exactly that, the addiction was one branch of the underlying disorder.  It was a 'character structure' which wasnt really me, but was inside me that kept driving me towards sefl-destruct.   
Boat, when I first found out about the dos, I realised why I was constantly falling into the same traps, specailly with others with dos.  So one problem with your mum for instance, is if she's operating out of the dos, she's not in contact with you at all, she's in contact with whats inside her head, her own unreality, and she's imposing that vision on you.   She's not seeing the daughter who came to take care of her, and whom if she was in reality, she would be full of tenderness and appreciation for, she's projecting her bad feelings inside herself onto you, triggered by the said bana skin, which is now being discussed internationally
But its so baffling with these people because whilst they're doing it, they're really living in that reality (its called the quadrants), and its easy to get influenced by others when they're in their reality, specially if you're empathic.   And althoug its hugely wise to keep things simple, I found that it was vital for me to understand these inner workings before I could even begin to find peace of mind for myself.  (thats another story!).   
What exactly her dynamic is, not sure, but its like what is inside the constant dramas.  For now it seems like the alcoholism is pretty yuk. 

As for the literature, Im afraid that at the mo its only in some rather ... umm full-on psychoanalytic literature.   But its my ambition to write something that makes this accessible and understandable to people like you and me who need/ want to know.   So would you like to help me?   !!   
Ok, a place to start is that one of the books does have diagrams in it which show the basic inner dynamics of the 3 disorders, you can get into the book on Amazon.  Its 'The Therapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders', by Masterson and Leiberman.  As I say, the language isnt easy, but when I persevered I was able to translate to my own experience. 

[nolongeraslave]

Wow, this topic has deviated (which is fine), so I may not have processed everything.

Hops-Sorry that you are feeling bad about the situation with your daughter. I've admired you much on this board as being very empathic, nurturing and caring.     With your daughter, I think being calm and positive is bound to give good vibes to the other person.  Just having a warm presence and the person knows they can come to you. 

My problem in life is being too anxious, negative or defensive, which of course causes people to react similar.  Even when I act very sweet and non-threatening to N mom, she has been complying back lately. 

I may be at the point in my healing where I might be able to let go of anger and resentment, and just look at the positives in people. Looking at the positives doesn't mean accepting poor treatment, but to stop looking through life with such smudged glasses. There was an excellent article in Healthy Living how life mirrors what we think and how we see people.

I had a bad day today where I put myself in re-victimizing situation, but after several hours of moping...I'm feeling better and am trying to see the beauty in everyone, even if I have to squint!

[debkor]

Hi Boat,

  An interesting read narcissism in a bottle.   Yes I have an N friend (w) substance addiction to pills.   She would still be N (in recovery) clean.  I had the same thoughts and questions as you have.  Here's the link

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-tian-dayton/narcissism-in-a-bottle-th_b_249418.html
Hope it helps
Deb
     

[river]

this is my point.  What Dr Tian wrote:

  Same with the addict: the needs of those around them have to come second to their meeting their own, often overpowering desire for their next "fix" whether it be a drink, drug, food or sexual encounter. Both the narcissist and the addict are first and foremost self absorbed. They come first. 

........ I came accross this all the time in recovery.  I can work with that, but it misses some vital truth, that  I was addicted to him and the price was feeding everything of me into him.  Its just as toxic, but it is the opposite way round, mirror version.     These differentials exist amongst addicts too.   2 sides of a relational bargain from hell.   But compelling and addictive.   And still, all the attention in recovery goes to the N paradigm.   In fact the underlying dynamics are so often slightly more complex. 

[BonesMS]

this is my point.  What Dr Tian wrote:

  Same with the addict: the needs of those around them have to come second to their meeting their own, often overpowering desire for their next "fix" whether it be a drink, drug, food or sexual encounter. Both the narcissist and the addict are first and foremost self absorbed. They come first. 

........ I came accross this all the time in recovery.  I can work with that, but it misses some vital truth, that  I was addicted to him and the price was feeding everything of me into him.  Its just as toxic, but it is the opposite way round, mirror version.     These differentials exist amongst addicts too.   2 sides of a relational bargain from hell.   But compelling and addictive.   And still, all the attention in recovery goes to the N paradigm.   In fact the underlying dynamics are so often slightly more complex. 

I'm not quite sure which is worse... a sober N, an dry-drunk N, or an intoxicated N whose brain is fried and scrambled on alcohol and/or drugs.

Bones

[OnlyMe]

Hello,

Just popped in to the board, for some reassurance that I am not alone....
and this thread grabbed me...and this is my reaction :
YES, I know this sentence only too well.

And, it was always said by my NM as she was abusing me, calling it "Love" :
"There is no greater Love on this earth than a Mother's Love for her child."
"There is no greater thing that a child can do than to Give her life for her parent. God will have a special place in Heaven for you, if you do."

Realizing this deviates from the way the thread has gone, I felt I wanted to comment, because this struck a raw nerve with me, as I recognized the sentence, only too well, unfortunately.  Big Shudder.  Thankfully, I now realize it is all Manipulative Lies, but not before tremendous emotional damage was done.

Sorry, realizing I am almost starting a rant, but truthfully, this is still somewhat raw in my life, because, you see, I believed her............     

[Meh]

I'm not quite sure which is worse... a sober N, an dry-drunk N, or an intoxicated N whose brain is fried and scrambled on alcohol and/or drugs.

Bones

Uhhhggg....feeling dizzy

Now I can clearly see how unclear it really is. God help me.

I never saw it that way before Bones, clearly points out the necessity to somehow not get involved with them too deep.
~~Maybe writing here on the board, ruminating and regurgitating puts psychological space between us and them? What choice do we have, just pushing it out of mind doesnt help, Well maybe sometimes it does but somehow it resurfaces always.
~~Ya know, I'm really struggling with this simplicity vs. Complexity thing. I mean I'm not going to get a PhD in Psychology so I am asking myself just how many layers of "complexity" am I going to entertain, you know the feeling that every end of a string is tied onto another string and pull that one up and then at the bottom of that is another and another. And does this bring us out of the dark and into the light I just don't know.
 

[Meh]

From the Dr. Tian Dayton article:
Freud said that we become jealous of the narcissist because they seem to be so pleasantly oblivious to the feelings of accountability to others that the rest of us are plagued by. "Wouldn't it be nice," we think, "to be free of this burden of awareness of the needs and feelings of others and simply ask ourselves one question, what do I want?"
~~Yes, Pleasantly Oblivious is a very good way to put it.

I could read and read explanations until I rot. I mean what useful thing can we do with these explanations?
Sorry, I am just so frustrated because for all the explanations out there, still there is NO good answer.

I just want things to get better, I don't even want to understand anymore. I don't want to pour over complexities.
No wonder people turn to drugs and fantasy because IT NEVER GOES AWAY and THERE IS NO WAY TO FIX IT.

What a lump of garbage they bequeathed to us. I didn't choose this nor did I ask for it!