Author Topic: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"  (Read 11912 times)

BonesMS

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2011, 08:40:30 PM »
I'm not quite sure which is worse... a sober N, an dry-drunk N, or an intoxicated N whose brain is fried and scrambled on alcohol and/or drugs.

Bones

Uhhhggg....feeling dizzy

Now I can clearly see how unclear it really is. God help me.

I never saw it that way before Bones, clearly points out the necessity to somehow not get involved with them too deep.
~~Maybe writing here on the board, ruminating and regurgitating puts psychological space between us and them? What choice do we have, just pushing it out of mind doesn't help, Well maybe sometimes it does but somehow it resurfaces always.
~~Ya know, I'm really struggling with this simplicity vs. Complexity thing. I mean I'm not going to get a PhD in Psychology so I am asking myself just how many layers of "complexity" am I going to entertain, you know the feeling that every end of a string is tied onto another string and pull that one up and then at the bottom of that is another and another. And does this bring us out of the dark and into the light I just don't know.
 

Sorry about the dizziness.  If I was able to spot a warning sign, glad to be able to help.

Bones
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Hopalong

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2011, 09:41:20 PM »
I think some things we can't think our way to the answers to.

(Ironically, I think that.)

I think (again, hah) the solution is in a feeling space.

For me, it's in safe community (for me, the UU church) where I plant the seat of my pants on the seat of the pew or in the seat of a chair in some meeting or other, week after week and year after year, because it reminds me that I am most safe as part of a larger organism...a sort of Gaia view. My drastic individuality and dramatic pain (it's real, but it's dramatic) recedes at least for a couple of experiences a week, when I'm in a group setting (within that overall-safe-for-me community).

It seems to be the thing that settles me down, beyond analysis.

It's not about having an answer as much as it is about having a place.
I don't even care if I'm right. It could be a placebo effect. This sense of being part of something.

It still makes it easier to be a speck on a star...

xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Meh

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2011, 02:18:47 AM »
Really Hops, that is quite profound: I think some things we can't think our way to the answers to.

Hops, that is really awesome your church group provides such a sense of wellbeing for you.

Earlier this evening I went to my Buddhist group, sometimes it helps a bit so I go, any little bit that helps I will seek it.
I'm just especially frazzled though so it didn't help a whole lot. I was feeling quite angry when I went. I don't think it gives me the same amount of reassurance as your group does but a lot of that probably has to do with having faith that has been developed over the years.

I'm finding that in my hard-time Buddhism just isn't quite doing it for me for some reason.

Hopefully at some point I will be more settled and have a "place", I can see the value of finding and attending a church regularly.
It's probably especially powerful to be able to go back to the same church year after year because you have plenty of time to get to know people.

I think some things we can't think our way to the answers to.

(Ironically, I think that.)

I think (again, hah) the solution is in a feeling space.

For me, it's in safe community (for me, the UU church) where I plant the seat of my pants on the seat of the pew or in the seat of a chair in some meeting or other, week after week and year after year, because it reminds me that I am most safe as part of a larger organism...a sort of Gaia view. My drastic individuality and dramatic pain (it's real, but it's dramatic) recedes at least for a couple of experiences a week, when I'm in a group setting (within that overall-safe-for-me community).

It seems to be the thing that settles me down, beyond analysis.

It's not about having an answer as much as it is about having a place.
I don't even care if I'm right. It could be a placebo effect. This sense of being part of something.

It still makes it easier to be a speck on a star...

xo
Hops
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 02:27:41 AM by Boat that Rocks »

Meh

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2011, 03:10:52 AM »
Sorry Debkor, The article is a good reference about the subject. Thank you.

I mean yes I do think I have gained more awareness from reading info I guess the main thing is it scares me and disappoints me to know that I can not FIX it and it will not just go away. If one can't FIX it or make anything better then why make the tremendous effort to understand it. Sometimes I just feel left behind in the dust in life and that I will never catch up (or just missing out on life) because of this mess.

Doesn't the non-fixability of these relationships put a person into perpetual and continual and everlasting grief that will not resolve?

I just want to ask God "When is it going to get better"?

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 04:03:57 AM by Boat that Rocks »

sKePTiKal

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2011, 10:08:56 AM »
Boat,  sometimes you just need to go smell the Christmas trees or sit in the sun and feel the breeze on your face. A "time-out" from trying to "figure it all out". Go pretend all this crap doesn't exist - just for 10 minutes or so. It'll help the dizziness.

Here's the thing: you are right. You can't fix the the Ns; you can't fix the relationships. I'd like to stop wars and redesign how Congress works - but I can't. What we can fix - is US. I think it's sort the last, lowest N-trick - that we spend so much time trying to understand them (not possible) - that we put off the stuff we can fix, about our selves.

Yes, it helps to do the research, the reading... to try to understand the he said/she said drama & dynamics. It's not the answer.
Yes, it helps to have a place like Hops does - or your Buddhist group - just a community to BElong in. It's not a substitute.
Yes, it helps to move the work to the "feeling" self sometimes... I believe it can "think" too - but in emotional "words"... and get out of our heads sometimes. We need both - thinking & feeling - to work creatively, collaboratively, in the same direction together... so that we're not constantly pulled in 2 directions at once.

River's "Self in Exile" explanation makes sense to me... but I have to try to put my understanding into my words and terminology. And the one thing I have to remind myself of, a lot - it that it's not an on/off state - is/isn't. It's a continuum... so that, at any given moment I can be more/less - to some degree - my whole self. And I think this is true of everyone - and I mean absolutely everyone who's not certifiable, all the time.

As to addictions & N - my Nmom doesn't even drink coffee or tea. The only thing she's really addicted to is projection of parts of herself (that she can't stand and may very well be delusional) onto people around her, people that's she's already made crazy with gaslighting, frustration, and never being satisfied. Then, they get to be the REASON (blame) for why she's unhappy. (repeat ad nauseum) It's not possible - at all - to make her aware that she does this; that's how deep her denial is.

The only solution for me, is to focus on something other than her 'coz I don't understand "crazy" - focus on the people around me now; the me I am now - in other words, STEP AWAY FROM THE NUTJOB!! Breathe some fresh air. Just BE.

OnlyMe - hello! We can change what we believe, thankfully! I used to believe I was going marry one of the Monkees, too. LOL!!! It's so "wrong" in the natural order of things... to tell a child they're expected to give their life for the parent. Doesn't get much more N than that, does it?
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2011, 12:21:19 PM »
Quote
Doesn't the non-fixability of these relationships put a person into perpetual and continual and everlasting grief that will not resolve?

Oh, Boat. I understand this question. From my heart cells.

A friend of mine who has been homeless is in a major crisis (to update on another thread)...and his sister wrote that a woman she knows who directs a program said that her accumulative impression is that most homeless people are very gentle souls, who in many ways are too gentle for this world. (That didn't accomodate the pure-bad-luck and this-cursed-economy factors). But it struck me as an insight. (And I would say cruel culture, rather than world...because we CAN make it different.)

For me, the community answer is not so much the group doing anything to me, but me repeatedly RE-deciding that this is how I will interpret my life in that community. Once I figured out that to belong to the human community in one positive setting was as important to my survival as protein (this was actually a surprise, but interviewing Alan Luks years ago, and the research on altruism, I began to see it)--I just began to look at sticking with it. It could've been Quaker, Buddhist, or a community garden group, or art group, or whatever...for me it fits to be in a religious community that embraces very diverse beliefs, including my agnosticism). Anyway I began to look at the repetition of the behavior of going and showing up as something I:

1) have do to to have a chance at wellness (I lived as an outsider as a poet and writing is hermetic anyway, I had to do this for balance)
2) continue to do because it does divert me from that Great Grief

I think the Great Grief is true and real and I have been near-destroyed by it before.
Tossing my lot in with this particular community is my only chance of exposing myself, regularly, to words and notions and companionship that, some of the time, remind me there may also be Great Love.

(Being agnostic, I'll never prove whether that's true or not. But I will repetitively expose myself to the possibility that it might be, or the despair engulfs me.)

The only think I can do, in community life or in my own struggle, is to keep presenting the vibrant Great Grief...with episodes of love, service (which I do precious little of), and beauty.

I think I can handle the Great Grief better than I can Great Fear.

Another thing I think about when I'm going through repetitive heartbreak is that really, maybe the best goal I can have is to keep my eye on the much older people in my congregation who seem to have a lot of serenity. Normally, it's those who have simply settled into a repetitive life of living simply for themselves, and spending a lot of time in service. Whatever's empty after survival is met, I think I'll put there. And though I'm unhappy now, maybe in 10 years, when I'm 71, I'll find myself more like them. (And if I'm wrong and I'm still crawling on the floor pushing my wailing heart along ahead of me, I know most folks there will be kind enough to pick me up and haul me off to a potluck.)

I also remember the look on my father's face when he died, which was a blast of wonder. So I figure right or wrong, correct or confused, I can go the same place he did.

love to you,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Meh

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2011, 09:17:33 PM »
Thanks for the heartfelt words and understanding. (((Hops))) & (((Phoenix))) It feels good just to know that somebody "gets it".

Slowly but surely I think my referral to speak with a counselor is being processed finally, keeping my fingers crossed.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 11:16:07 PM by Boat that Rocks »

sKePTiKal

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Re: "Nobody will ever love you as much as I do"
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2011, 10:42:13 AM »
Boat, I need to tag along with Hops' post... explain something I ran across. I hope it makes some sense.

You know the theory of Tao. For everything that exists - it's opposite also exists.
In the midst of facing my own "great grief" - whether that's conceived as a personal despair that can't be let go, or the "collective consciousness" version of humanity's collective "great grief"....

by some stroke of luck, fate or just wishing a huge gaping, yearning wish... I began to be aware of the "great comfort" that exists to equal the "great grief". It's pretty REAL to me, and even though I realize it's really hard to communicate an actual feeling or awareness to another being... I would sincerely like to be able to point people in that direction to find it themselves. I don't really know how to do that.

I only know, that once I began to feel the grief itself (not thoughts about it, shoulds/shouldn't, anything at all structured or process-based)... let myself into that locked room of wailing, temper-tantrum kicking & screaming, overwhelming sadness & chaos, wiping snot on my sleeve - or not even able to do that - kind of total consciousness FEELING... that great comfort started to tap me on the shoulder, try to gently get my attention, and then it held me.... till the tears slowly dried up; sniff! I was completely alone - well, OK... I had kitties and my empath golden retreiver too... but I think some people might want to have another person physically present for this. Insurance or whatever. I know I always feel safest when I'm totally alone so that worked for me. Safety is important.

Anyway, repeated "treatment" sessions like this, helped me realize that the comfort and the grief actually contain each other. We're sad because we care for one we've lost (or never had). If we didn't care... we also wouldn't feel that grief. The fact that this level of caring exists in the world (even if I'm just one wacky, warped person) is a miracle of oppositeness to the old "normal" of negativity, struggle, not understanding what was "wrong" with me. It means to me, that I'm a "whole" person... I can feel both opposites... even simultaneously... and what I didn't have matters LESS to me, than knowing that I'm just a normal person, reacting in a normal way to my own personal tragedy... and I literally felt as if a 16 ton anvil had been lifted off of me. Like I had to pay attention, to keep my feet on the ground!

And something else happened. Like Hops' community of mutual support... I started having these out of the blue, experiences of plain, simple human kindness being offered to me. And it felt good to offer these, myself. (Awkward at first; too...I didn't have a lot of practice or skills.) At first, these experiences brought more tears... but then it started to seem more normal. And the world seemed to have gone from a fuzzy, dim, old black & white movie... to breathtaking technicolor. (maybe I couldn't see that stuff before, trapped under my grief??)

I sure hope you find your way to that pretty soon! You deserve it... we all do.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.