Print Page - Healthy community

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 08:42:39 AM

Title: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 08:42:39 AM

I see so much gaslighting, projecting and in particular, RALLYING, going on that I am no longer sure this board can remain a viable place for me.

One indicator of health, and relative Nism, for me (and including me), is the degree to which a person dominates the board.

I have been N-ish at times here, and one measure of that is that there were long long periods when I responded to virtually every single post and had a "wise opinion" on nearly every subject. After a while, it was no longer an issue of "finding my voice", it was asking myself if my voice ever shut up! :)

I still feel blasts of energy and almost manic responsiveness at times. Most of the time, if I am trying to offer love or advice to another person, I don't feel badly about it. I'm a yakker, a flaming ENFP, and I also like to help. If I'm thoughtfully responding and not just typing in empty score-a-post words (oh I love you I love God I care oh-look-at-me I've COMMENTED!) -- I've done both -- anyway, if I'm thoughtfully responding and have the energy to do that in a widespread way now and then, I can live with my loudness.

I just can't live as comfortably with some OTHER people's loudness. :shock: (Funny how that works.)

When I open the home page, click on Unread Posts Since Last Visit, and the same names come up over and over and over and over and over again in multiple threads, and the same recyled patterns of accusation and drama keep reappearing, I've come to believe that the board's health as a community is out of balance. I feel as though several voices are literally devouring the board with relentless demands for attention and that they are using up most of the oxygen in the room. And I know at times mine has been one of them.

It makes me sad. When I first came, I felt I was in the company of wise, kind, humorous people (for the most part). One thing that stood out as I got to know the community was how so many of these women who had suffered through so much, and who had learned and deepened because of it...were so thoughtful and kind in the way they responded to other people's lives. The wisest sand kindest seemed to not take themselves too seriously, and also were selective and sparing. They didn't flood every thread or every page.

They took pain seriously and responded to it with respect for its significance. But there was perspective. They often mention other people in their lives whom they love or are touched by; they were seldom the only subject of their own posts. Over and over they demonstrated for me the wisdom of laughing and playing and interweaving lightness with depth and sorrows. There was a peaceful rhythm to their posting. Some more and some less depending on personality, but there was a sense of community and group dialogue, not a few dancers who eternally elbowed others off the stage and shoved their own stories front and center on a daily bais. I celebrate and thank Mum, Daylily, Sela, H&H, Portia, Bridgit, and so many more. They've all gone quiet now.

I am particularly sad for the lurkers and potential newcomers who either don't dare step onto the board for what they are seeing, or who try it out and quickly vanish, overwhelmed by toxicity and drama.

I don't want to leave the community or my friends here, but I am feeling I should consider it. In order to address my own addictive and dependent tendencies, and in order to make room, I hope, for a newcomer who needs the space here.

I would like for newcomers to have a sense of spaciousness. Of quiet welcome and patient openness. Receptivity. Those things are best achieved by sharing space, I believe. And I have expanded to fill more than my share of it.

No firm decision but I wanted to tell people that I am confronting this question, of leaving. And why.

This thread is for anyone who is having similar feelings and would like to take a turn discussing balance on the board, health of the board, and who has any other related ideas or thoughts to share.

The only request I have is that is be a dialogue as though we were sitting in a circle, with a commitment to share time relatively equally. This is an invitation to anyone who has felt there was no point in posting, or who has not spoken much lately, and who would like to have a quiet SHARED dicussion, as in taking turns, with mutliple voices rather than only the familiar few.

I ask that it be respectful and kind and mature, and that the larger goal of rebuilding and maintaining a healthier community, with serious consideration to questions of dominance and quantity versus quality of sharing, be the topic.

love
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 08:45:01 AM

Hops, I totally agree.

I know from looking back through the board that there have been conflicts being played out from the boards inception 5 years ago and ongoing to present date.

I don't know of the members you mention, with the exception of Portia who I have read as leaving during the conflict in Aug/Sept' 07 from reading the posts during that time (as I was not posting during that time as I took a very long months long break from the board, from May'07 to Oct'07).

Correction: Sorry, Sela, of course I do know you here on the board, my sincere apology. (and I hope your seedlings have flourished and are blooming).

So, I accept that conflicts are the normal course of events here on the board. Though personally, I do not think that they are healthy.

However, there are many gentle spirited lovely people sitting on the sideline in safety, lurking, being too afraid to post.

I would like to see newcomers feeling safe and comfortable to freely express without being placed under a paranoid spotlight and being frightened away.

This is a place for Healing of Voicelessness and Emotional Hurt.

Not a place for replication of the same as endured.

I am hoping that many of whom are lurking in safety will feel safe to join this thread and contribute to positive and wholesome effect

Hope you are enjoying your break from the board and that you are achieving all you set out to do, and also, that your work in the garden is blooming and flourishing.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 09:34:15 AM

Hops-ditto! You said it so well that I cannot add anything to it. I have refrained from posting much because it is as you say.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: cats paw on June 13, 2008, 09:44:49 AM

Hi Hops,

  If your decision to leave would be what you feel benefits yourself, that is one thing. But to say it would be to make room and
  leave enough space for others? You are considering health and balance, not just within yourself, but also for the community.

  So by practicing it, would you not be contributing to rebuiding your vision of healthy community? There would be ample room for yourself
and others, even on your energetic days. Your final decision will be what is best for yourself.


Passing the talking stick to the next person in the circle,
cats paw

Edit in for typos

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 13, 2008, 09:46:21 AM

Oh.... Hops....

yes. I've been thinking about this too. It's about "letting go" for me...
along with letting go a few other things.

I feel it's not possible to collaborate with others in healing - in sharing the healing process - if you can't speak honestly and provide observations to people without being accused of "stepping on their corns" and causing additional pain. Damn it - it's their pain - and another person is not the cause of it! Blaming other people is a big part of the "problem". The whole point of being here is to share ourselves and ACCEPT the offered feedback from others as HELP to heal. To me, that was the most encouraging aspect of the board - the real sharing of our experiences as a means to help each other. I have received so much from so many.

But, I'm still here.... tho' I've retreated some. I have made some very good friends here - you Hops, for one - and several others. And I cherish those friends, it's something I haven't allowed myself much, since High School.

I've come to believe some people try to use support groups as a way to act out their own conflicts about their FOO or the relationship with the N. Transference. Projection.... whatever. And I believe also, that they need a different kind of help than a support group can provide. It's not an appropriate place to actually re-enact those conflicts or experiences.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 13, 2008, 10:39:30 AM

Hops,

I share Kitty Foot's view. Besides, you are welcome to share my O² any day.

So... wontcha come set a spell over there on your side of the scales... in the interest of balance? :)

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 10:58:01 AM

Thanks, all-a y'all. I appreciate the reminder that part of my reasoning wasn't appropriate (that I'd need to move on to make space for newcomers). I'll (gratefully) backpedal on that part of it! My own feelings about dominance and quantity over quality are really useful to the topic only as an illustration of one person's thoughts. (I know it helps me when people do that. I benefit much more from people's personal thoughts, more than articles/theories...that's just me.)

I really appreciate yours, and you (individually) know you are my friends. I see where I was wonky--I don't need to modestly "move over". Thanks. If I decide to leave it won't be for that reason.Thanks for the love...(((((((youse know who youse are)))))) . I don't want to make the thread about me, though. Hope it just sparks others "old" and new to share their thoughts--a good open discussion with plenty of voices.

I'm eager to listen to more thoughts on dominance, etc., and rebuilding a healthy community. It's a good topic (she said, humbly) regardless of any individual decision...if it helps the board get better.

love,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: cats paw on June 13, 2008, 11:10:23 AM

Hops,

I understood and appreciated your use of your personal thoughts as an illustration useful to the topic, plus I also admire your sharing your self-examination. Also, I knew your thread was not just about you, but about community, of which you have been a part.

Yes, it is a good topic.

cats paw

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 13, 2008, 11:29:09 AM

Hops,

I am afraid that the beauty of this will be lost in the shuffle:

Quote

The only request I have is that is be a dialogue as though we were sitting in a circle, with a commitment to share time relatively equally. This is an invitation to anyone who has felt there was no point in posting, or who has not spoken much lately, and who would like to have a quiet SHARED dicussion, as in taking turns, with mutliple voices rather than only the familiar few.

I ask that it be respectful and kind and mature, and that the larger goal of rebuilding and maintaining a healthier community, with serious consideration to questions of dominance and quantity versus quality of sharing, be the topic.

How to express a view without creating further offense or inviting defensive interpretations? I don't know.

I wish that many other people will reply here, with their own thoughts.

What you wrote here has summed it up for me:

Quote

They took pain seriously and responded to it with respect for its significance. But there was perspective. They often mention other people in their lives whom they love or are touched by; they were seldom the only subject of their own posts.

I can just hear the cries of - "You can't tell me to just get over it!", etc, etc.

And I know, of course, that's not the suggestion at all...
but that's likely how it will be interpreted, imo.

So - I repeat - I'm afraid to suggest anything directly.
And maybe others are, too? Maybe that's a big part of the stagnation here?

So - setting fear aside, here goes - -
I do think that it's damaging when members repeatedly post, over and over, about "me, myself, and I"... consistently, over time, months, years even... which feels to me like draining the life's blood from the community as a whole, as it draws all attention to a very narrow focal point.

But you asked for suggested remedies... and I don't know any, other than to talk about it here and maybe that will help develop a bit more awareness? I hope so.
Definitely, I want to help in every way possible to try to bring back a sense of community here and foster new growth.

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 11:38:23 AM

My sincere love to you, Hops

In all honesty, I don't think that the "board" can heal itself, it certainly hasn't up till now.

Amber wrote:

Quote

I've come to believe some people try to use support groups as a way to act out their own conflicts about their FOO or the relationship with the N. Transference. Projection.... whatever. And I believe also, that they need a different kind of help than a support group can provide. It's not an appropriate place to actually re-enact those conflicts or experiences.

I do think what Amber as shared, above, is the key to the real issue of conflicts here, ongoing, on and off, since the board began, evidently, which is an undeniable truth.

These are my thoughts and words;

Any healthy community is made up of reciprocal inclusiveness, with interactions of respect and consideration for each individual member of the community, and without invalidation of any kind.

Otherwise, the ground is merely akin to shifting sand.

Also, some people, myself included, are wary of expressing their thoughts, and their lives here, for the reason of not feeling safe in the midst of the climate of relational aggression.
Having ones life experience hurled back at oneself, or worse still misconstrued, is not healthy. That has happened.

The solution lies within -- each member of this community.

Leah x

Invalidation kills confidence, creativity, individuality... and if we do not find a way to re-empower our individual and collective lives and to connect with our humanity it will slowly erode all that we have built into a tower of sand. The solution that we seek in our lives, in our work and in our world does not lie outside us but within us. We each have the power to move past invalidation by igniting the power of our heart to touch our mind and infuse our life and the lives of others with validation and joy.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 13, 2008, 11:56:22 AM

Carolyn wrote:

Quote

What you wrote here has summed it up for me:

They took pain seriously and responded to it with respect for its significance. But there was perspective. They often mention other people in their lives whom they love or are touched by; they were seldom the only subject of their own posts.

I can just hear the cries of - "You can't tell me to just get over it!", etc, etc.

And I know, of course, that's not the suggestion at all...
but that's likely how it will be interpreted, imo.

Hearing only "get over it" is the problem, Carolyn. Because of course, that's not something anyone of us says or means - it's only what is heard.

When someone wants to cling to their pain, obsess and fixate on what horrible things happened (and I speak from my own experience with myself here)... even attempts to relieve that pain are seen as threats, more abuse... Some people choose lives of continual pain - even creating new situational pain - because it's comfortable; they don't have to change; it's what they know; they don't have to RISK being their real selves or being responsible - they can always blame someone else, playing the victim, getting attention for "poor me"...

Oh, I was really good at this - WAS.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 12:16:47 PM

I have come to realize that Wounded Hearts are Captive Hearts -- as mine WAS

Anyone who is captive is bound and not free -- as I WAS

And I do think that anyone who is bound and not free is most likely struggling to break free.

Leah x

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 12:32:23 PM

Hops,
Your post to begin this thread is well said.

I am one who was choosing to just lurk, but I found I missed the interaction, so have posted in spurts, trying to go back to lurking mode yet feel I want to respond in certain instances, such as commending you on your post, and the responders to it as well.

Anyone who makes it a point to post on every thread, with basically no 'meat' to the post is likely vying for attention, or trying to win a race. I find that not all threads contain what feels like being right 'up my alley' so sometimes my posts are few and far between.

In the big picture, I feel comfortable here, feel I have made friends (and lost some too) and have shared things that I have never said in 3D to anyone! That is how understanding and trustworthy I felt the people on this board to be
Izzy

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 12:44:02 PM

Hey Hops.

I've missed your strong sage voice...

so glad you're not leaving.

As one who left the board, not knowing if she'd return.... this thread resonates with me.

Lighter

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: debkor on June 13, 2008, 12:46:28 PM

I think we all are here for obvious reasons, we all have been abused, in one way or another. Some worse then others.

In the recent conflicts what I have seen is Voices being spoken loud and clear on all parts. Some things that I don't agree with and maybe even crossing a line right into harassment. But Voices I hear. Are things intentional, don't know..

I have seen boundaries set, people standing up for themselves and point blank (in your face) this is my opinion, and a No Contact set in place. I choose to not engage. I won't dance don't ask me.

I think this is damn healthy.

So as far as newbies looking on and seeing DRAMA yes that might be true but look deeper So many people healing and so much growth and strength and sometimes it gets Icky getting there. And yes it goes off balance but isn't that true in real life. Please don't get stuck and focus on the drama part there is way more then just that on this board... the healing, the growth,,, read and learn... this board is our tool.. to learn.. to heal.. to grow... to get healthy.. this is whats it's all about.

There is so much growth here it out ways the conflicts, as I can, see it.

I do believe in this board and the people. JMO..

Love
Deb

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: tayana on June 13, 2008, 02:29:31 PM

I have been lurking, checking in on the board from time to time. One thing I have noticed each time I have visited is the constant bickering, finger pointing, and accusations that seem to have become the norm on this board. There is a sense of paranoia on this board now, and I have not posted for this reason.

I have found the board very helpful when I have hard decisions to make. I've made several friends here, but I don't know how healthy this place is anymore. We have all been abused by the N's in our life, and I can't say that I'm perfect and exhibit none of those N traits. However, when one can't reply honestly to any thread without fear of being attacked or accused, then we are back to the same song we danced with our N's.

I have tried to leave these unhealthy situations in my past. I am trying to start over with a new life, a new house, a new partner. My mother contacted me for the first time in 3 months, but I didn't post about my confusion. Why? Because I'm just not sure how well my post would be heard here. I have noticed in the past few months that the only threads that receive true attention seem to be those that degenerate into pointless bickering. That's not healthy.

I have been working things out with my T, and with my partner. I don't like to talk about my feelings. I find it easier to write about them, but for me, the board hasn't been a place where I have felt healing can take place. I feel like one needs to choose sides here, and if one associates with certain board members, then you are under suspicion of being a troll.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: ann3 on June 13, 2008, 02:30:46 PM

Oh, yes, I agree. The board has become a venomous cacophony.

Wish we could express how we feel without crushing other people or having others crush us.

peace to all,
ann

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: ann3 on June 13, 2008, 02:35:08 PM

One thing I have noticed each time I have visited is the constant bickering, finger pointing, and accusations that seem to have become the norm on this board.

We have all been abused by the N's in our life, and I can't say that I'm perfect and exhibit none of those N traits. However, when one can't reply honestly to any thread without fear of being attacked or accused, then we are back to the same song we danced with our N's.

I have tried to leave these unhealthy situations in my past.

Tayana,
Beautifully expressed.

love,
ann

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lollie on June 13, 2008, 02:46:44 PM

Hi, Hops.

This is a great thread, and I thank you for starting it.

Like you, I have thought about leaving the board this week. It's been hard for me to read many of the posts...and it's been hard for me to stop myself from reading the posts as well. The second part is beginning to concern me. This board is not quite an addiction for me yet, but it sure has taken up a lot of my time this week.

It's a tough call, because I see really good things happening here sometimes. There are many people with good hearts who share their life experiences and who, above all, really seem able to understand. But then there's the (I'm beginning to think) inevitable discord, rallying, projection, etc. that you mentioned in your post.

The strength of a board like this is that it gives people a certain level of anonymity, and with that the freedom to be more open about sensitive issues. The weakness of a board like this it gives people a certain level of anonymity, and with that the freedom to say something that in real life would get you punched in the nose.

Back in April, during a different period of conflict, I removed my story in the Member Stories section because the board didn't seem a safe place to bare my soul. I haven't reposted it yet for that reason and also because in this current climate I simply don't want any of my "story" (any of my "issues") to be weilded as a weapon against me. I had enough of that in my FOO.

I think each person posting here has their own reasons and their own expectations of what they will experience here. Back in April, I posted this:

Quote

Maybe I was expecting something different than a mirror of life on "the outside." I think I was expecting more of a sanctuary, a safe place where I could come to read the stories of other adult children, post some of mine, get a reality check, maybe read some things that were healing and would help me grow. It could be that my expectations were all out of whack. I don't know.

There are many, many good hearts here. Maybe I will see that feeling emerge again. Until that time, I will lurk and check my PMs. And I will probably get all pissed off at something someone's N mom said and post something in spite of myself.

I still feel that way. Actually, I feel even more tentative about posting than before. It's not because I'm afraid of someone else's wrath, or because I might hear a criticism that's uncomfortable for me, or because something I say might be misconstrued or misinterpreted. It's because there's a certain amount of toxicity here that seems, to me at least, to be the worst I've seen since I joined in December. And if it continues, I don't think it's good for me to come here and expose myself to it.

And to be quite honest with you, all this fighting is getting awfully boring.

Right now I am sitting right on the fence. It won't take much to push me to one side (give it some more time/things will calm down) or the other (goodbye and goodluck).

Thank you again, Hops. I appreciate your candor and willingness to start a conversation about this.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 03:58:12 PM

Reciprocal communication with respect and consideration works wonders!

Add a dose of Listening and Clarification

and share around the table with laughter ringing out now and then.

I know, I know, I am repeating myself again! :)

Love to ALL

From an eternal optimist

Leah x

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 13, 2008, 04:35:20 PM

Deb, having a voice and using it to respectfully disagree or stand up for yourself is a good thing. Yes, we should practice tolerance... everyone is different, sure, and at different places in healing.

Where I disagree with this, in light of the conflicts I've seen in my time here, is when "having a voice" is used to entitle someone to be mean, cruel, call names or label, and almost literally stand on a street corner shouting about how someone else here is making them a victim, hurting their feelings... in an attempt to gain sympathy and supporters. This is divisive in any community, anywhere, any time. And manipulative. Sure, it's because of abuse suffered before...

... this is why I believe that looking for help elsewhere is necessary before joining in a support community. A therapist is qualified to deal with those sensitivities and help the person get beyond this kind of behavior - we are not. There was a point in my process, where I simply couldn't have participated on any board because I couldn't be responsible for my own emotions and how I responded to others. A point where I simply couldn't read others' experiences and be understanding - because I was so triggered emotionally. In my case - I simply couldn't interact responsibly... and I didn't try to pretend I could.

There isn't any way to screen people on the web; to evaluate them beforehand. A support group should be equally open to all, I believe. But if someone repeatedly acts out the same kind behavior - all the while denying it and upsetting large groups of people - they're not being helped here and neither are we. And when the conflicts continue over time - as they have - it becomes an obstacle for me. "OH NO... not THAT again!"

It's unfortunately like a car accident: you don't want to look - but morbid curiosity takes over. And like it or not - it affects me. When it's a long road trip, chances are there'll be more than one accident - BUT IT'S NOT THE SAME ONE OVER & OVER... like the conflicts are, here. Yes, Lollie - they get boring. Yes Hops - I spend too much time here, while at work; it's one of the few luxuries I have here; for now. I rather enjoy this place when we're not all discussing this same issue, ad nauseum... but do I really need to be here?

Probably not. Thought I might be able to "give back"... but I too have been mauled in some conflicts... so I have to consider. I'll think about my participation over the weekend.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: debkor on June 13, 2008, 06:00:06 PM

Hi PR,

I just wrote and when I was finished the site went down or my server, God!..

Anyway I wanted to say that Yes, I agree with you. That a voice does not mean you can slander, label, name call, or shout out someone here is making them feel victim, hurting their feelings, to gain sympathy and supporters. But it does happen.

When I was first on here and pretty new there was a conflict then. CB was here at the time and wrote to not be discouraged this has happened before and it will blow over and it did just to come back again, Ugh.

I see CB has left, as well, as others. I am glad she pops in from time to time though. There are so many good people with lots of wisdom and experiences to share on here and now again more are thinking about leaving because of conflict, over and over and over, I do understand this but it saddens me. I enjoy the reads. I enjoy sharing. I enjoy the people and consider (my online) friends. And I guess it just is upsetting that so many people I have learned so much from and have given so much .. may just have had enough and I do understand. Just a little sad.

Love
Deb

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 06:09:10 PM

Amber....

of all the teachers/posters sharing their positive healing journey on this board....

please don't leave.

Not now.

Lighter

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 13, 2008, 06:15:51 PM

Quote from: PhoenixRising on June 13, 2008, 04:35:20 PM

Where I disagree with this, in light of the conflicts I've seen in my time here, is when "having a voice" is used to entitle someone to be mean, cruel, call names or label, and almost literally stand on a street corner shouting about how someone else here is making them a victim, hurting their feelings... in an attempt to gain sympathy and supporters. This is divisive in any community, anywhere, any time. And manipulative. Sure, it's because of abuse suffered before...

Love this.....

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 10:21:57 PM

I'll say goodnight now, and goodbye for a while.

love
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 10:23:33 PM

Goodnight from me (((((((((( Hops ))))))))) Love, Leah

Enjoy your wonderful garden and don't eat all the blueberries at once! :)

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 10:40:37 PM

I will miss your sense of reason!! Please do not go for long!!! Hopefully the board will simma donna............

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: CB123 on June 14, 2008, 10:01:58 AM

Hi Hopsy,

Hope you are still around enough to do some reading of your thread. I have been off the board for a long time now, but I usually sat down with my cup of coffee and read a few posts in the morning before I headed out for my day. I think that what you are searching for is balance and that is a good thing--and it will come with the break you are planning.

I left the board about three conflicts ago! :shock: Yes, they do happen over and over again. This will definitely not be the last one! The point at which I left, I had too much going on in my 3D world to manage the relationships here.

Frankly, we are a very complicated bunch and there is no way to keep each other on the periphery of our lives when we are here to share our hearts. So when things get intense around here, we may or may not have the emotional reserves to handle it. Healthy is when we pull back and take care of ourselves instead of reacting against the other hurting puppies here. There's been a lot of reacting in the last week from emotionally drained individuals.

I find that in every single area of my life, it is when I hit the wall that I am about to do some major quantum leap in growth. I never, ever, ever, ever grow before the hit-the-wall-point. Well, maybe I am growing all along--or setting the stage for growth--but the major push happens when I crash and burn. I think that there are some members here that are crashing and burning and that it is not a negative thing at all. They are crashing and burning on their way to a lot of insight. That's a good thing. Painful to watch though.

The title of this thread is Healthy Community. I like to think about that. I have spent my life thinking about Community and what it looks like and what it means. I think that at the end of my life, I MIGHT have figured it out. Sheesh. One thing that I read that has always stuck with me was by Scott Peck. He claimed that there is no such thing as community until you have had your first conflict. No one is being real if they are trying to avoid conflict--and it is the handling of conflict that forges the community.

How about that????

Conflict is, by its very nature, confusing and unpleasant. No one looks forward to it, no one looks back on it fondly. But without weathering it--without wading into it with hip-high boots and dealing with it--there is no community. So, there you have it--for the last week, we have been forging community. Healthy? Hmmm. Well, none of us is terribly healthy--so no surprise that we have some unhealthy aspects to our community.

Just because everyone in the community is not behaving well, doesnt mean that the community itself is unhealthy. There is no question that some of us (maybe all of us!!!!) is forging out their recovery by using others of us as surrogate FOO. If you go back and reread several weeks of posts, you will see how obvious that is. I don't think that any of us can work through our FOO issues without engaging in do-overs--recreate the problem relationships, even if it is only in our own minds, and then put ourself in the hero-role instead of the victim-role. Every one of us has been a colossal pain in the butt when we have done this.

This week's conflict has been a major pain-in-the-butt. Maybe just admitting that is the most we need to do.

Ami said something on another thread that I think was a sobering thought for all of us. She was thanking the people who agreed with and supported her and commented that if it had not been for them, she would have believed the lies that her mother told her about who she was. How many of the rest of us have that same thought pattern? How much of the choosing of sides and rallying on one side of the other, is born out of the desperation to have that voice in our head silenced?

Chances are we ARE, to some extent, who our N's said we were. Our N's were able to wrestle us to the ground and make us cry uncle--not because they were speaking lies about us--but because they were speaking half-truths. Or quarter-truths. Or eighth's-truths. And we chose to believe that small part about us, was all we were. We are so much more than that.

What's wrong with admitting that we are selfish, self-absorbed? That we gossip sometimes? That we arent completely loyal friends? Why do we feel as though we have to prove that we are perfect in order to be accepted? I have been, I have done all those things. But it isnt the sum-total of who I am. I am bigger than those things. I am constantly turning a corner in a labyrinth and coming across something unexpected. I am dirty and I have skinned knees. I have a bloody nose. Sometimes I hurt people coming around the corner, sometimes I help them up. Sometimes I dont realize who I ran over until I look back. Jeez, I'm a mess.

So are you...and you... and you. Healthy isnt being all cleaned up. Healthy is recognizing that in each of us.

CB

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Overcomer on June 14, 2008, 10:12:35 AM

CB: That was wonderfully said! It makes perfect sense. I never in my life would be a part of a fight. In 3D life I would always back down. The fact that I yell at my mom and set healthy boundaries is uncomfortable for her but it is a major freeing experience for me. The fact that our members can say what they want IS freeing to them. I had a major ah ha moment here, CB. Thank you!!

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 14, 2008, 10:44:48 AM

Dear CB,

Your post has put alot of this mess into better perspective for me.
This comment, in particular, has startled me into new awareness... and I can see that it's true!

Quote

He claimed that there is no such thing as community until you have had your first conflict. No one is being real if they are trying to avoid conflict--and it is the handling of conflict that forges the community.

I'm so glad that you returned to share some of what you've learned with us. Thank you.

Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Dr. Richard Grossman on June 14, 2008, 11:07:01 AM

Amen, CB!

Richard

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: teartracks on June 14, 2008, 04:17:23 PM

Hi CB,

Wonderfullly said and painfully true.

What's wrong with admitting that we are selfish, self-absorbed? That we gossip sometimes? That we arent completely loyal friends? Why do we feel as though we have to prove that we are perfect in order to be accepted? I have been, I have done all those things. But it isnt the sum-total of who I am. I am bigger than those things. I am constantly turning a corner in a labyrinth and coming across something unexpected. I am dirty and I have skinned knees. I have a bloody nose. Sometimes I hurt people coming around the corner, sometimes I help them up. Sometimes I dont realize who I ran over until I look back. Jeez, I'm a mess.

Thank you so much for your sobering input.

Last night I watched Mia Farrow's biography on Lifetime. She said this that struck me as truth in my life experience and especially in light of all that transpired on the board recently.

“I get it now; I didn't get it then. That life is about losing and about doing it as gracefully as possible... and enjoying everything in between.”

So, I'm agreeing. I get it that Just because everyone in the community is not behaving well, doesn't mean that the community itself is unhealthy.

Almost every time there is 'conflict' like the one this week, I write what has come to sound even to me like a tired form letter chastising members for not being heads up and for not self monitoring more effectively with the whole of the VESMB community in mind. I never feel really heard when I fire out these retorts. (I now realize, I wasn't saying what was in my mind clearly.) So today, I'm going to try and speak my fear in a way that won't insult reason.

Here goes: Back toward the end of the ReallyMe days, someone said something to the affect (or is it effect) that a board they had participated on had been reduced to a handful of women because of the destructive activity of person(s) bent on destroying the board. In other words, a perfectly good board had been destroyed by conflicts intentionally introduced for that very purpose. Destroy, destroy, destroy. You see, when I fire out my same ole, same ole retort during conflicts, it is not because I object to people who are at the stage you describe here: I think that there are some members here that are crashing and burning and that it is not a negative thing at all. They are crashing and burning on their way to a lot of insight. That's a good thing. Painful to watch though. Rather, it is because I fear that the best place I know for those exact people to experience what you describe is under attack and that they and I may be but one conflict away from having this soft place to fall. My fear is not of the conflict bound to come from these who've suffered untold abuse. My fear is that VESMB will be reduced to a handful of ~~like minded~~ members who have for whatever reason (perhaps the herd mentality), agreed not to disagree, ~~bent on~~ thereby, converting the best board in existence on voicelessness to one of exclusion. If you don't agree with the handful, you're out! People who spend their time smoozing and blowing kisses to one another endlessly. My one and only fear is that VESMB's effectiveness will be reduced to THAT! I may be wrong, but I think I'm observing a shorter elapsed time between conflicts and a movement to exclusiveness. As much as I would like to think that my fears have no real foundation, when it's all said and done and I've said my piece, that's what everything I've said about conflict on the board is about. Threats to the very existence of the board is my overall and somewhat consuming concern. ~~Blessed or cursed, I see the big picture.~~ Be it blessed or cursed, I tend to look at the big picture. I remain a, sometimes scorned, defender of VESMB as best I understand its intended function.

A remaining question may be, tt, do you have a person or persons in mind as you write this. The answer is no. Do I become suspicious as conflicts manifest? Edit in: As regards the foregoing, you betcha. Do I think I have the market cornered on discernment? No. Do I think that what I've said here necessitates a response from anyone? No. Do I think that what I have to say has merit and bears consideration? Yes.

tt

Title: What is Conflict? -- Is It Healthy for ALL ??
Post by: Leah on June 14, 2008, 04:41:07 PM

What is Conflict and is it Healthy or not ? I simply need to know! Love to ALL, Leah

Conflict is a state of opposition, disagreement or incompatibility between two or more people or groups of people.

In political terms, “conflict” refers to an ongoing state of hostility between two or more groups of people.

Conflict as taught for graduate and professional work in conflict resolution commonly has the definition: “when two or more parties, with perceived incompatible goals, seek to undermine each other’s goal-seeking capability”.

One should not confuse the distinction between the presence and absence of conflict with the difference between competition and co-operation.

In competitive situations, the two or more parties each have mutually inconsistent goals, so that when either party tries to reach their goal it will undermine the attempts of the other to reach theirs. Therefore, competitive situations will by their nature cause conflict.

However, conflict can also occur in cooperative situations, in which two or more parties have consistent goals, because the manner in which one party tries to reach their goal can still undermine the other.

A clash of interests, values, actions or directions often sparks a conflict.

Conflicts refer to the existence of that clash.

Psychologically, a conflict exists when the reduction of one motivating stimulus involves an increase in another, so that a new adjustment is demanded. The word is applicable from the instant that the clash occurs. Even when we say that there is a potential conflict we are implying that there is already a conflict of direction even though a clash may not yet have occurred.

Stress and conflict are a normal part of life, and healthy behaviour involves the ability to cope and adapt.

Psychologists make a distinction between -- behaviour that successfully defends and copes -- and behaviour that fails to adapt and resolve conflict.

Edit in: Now, I know, understand what Conflict really is all about.

Love to ALL, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 15, 2008, 01:27:02 AM

Quote from: Oops on June 15, 2008, 01:01:07 AM

I get it..... Thru conflict we are learning effective and healthy ways of using our voices. We are learning what works and what doesn't! We are learning good communications skills....

Oops

It'll be interesting to see what we've learned....

when next,a newcomer, braves the board.

Food for thought.

Lighter

Title: What is Conflict? -- Is It Healthy for ALL ??
Post by: Leah on June 15, 2008, 06:45:07 AM

Quote from: Oops on June 15, 2008, 01:01:07 AM

I get it..... Thru conflict we are learning effective and healthy ways of using our voices. We are learning what works and what doesn't! We are learning good communications skills....

Oops

Hi Oops,

Great to read you and truly hope all is well with you.

But, the odd thing is though ...

that during my life long experience of learning good communication skills

they were most certainly NOT learned via conflict !!

And, I really do value and appreciate that of which the professionals i.e. the Psychologists have to say ..........

Stress and conflict are a normal part of life, and healthy behaviour involves the ability to cope and adapt.

Psychologists make a distinction between -- behaviour that successfully defends and copes -- and behaviour that fails to adapt and resolve conflict.

Love to ALL

Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 15, 2008, 10:08:21 AM

Dear tt,

I appreciate your post.. and I agree.

Most of all, I appreciate you.

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: CB123 on June 15, 2008, 11:15:48 AM

Rather, it is because I fear that the best place I know for those exact people to experience what you describe is under attack and that they and I may be but one conflict away from having this soft place to fall. My fear is not of the conflict bound to come from these who've suffered untold abuse. My fear is that VESMB will be reduced to a handful of like minded members who have for whatever reason (perhaps the herd mentality), agreed not to disagree, bent on thereby, converting the best board in existence on voicelessness to one of exclusion. If you don't agree with the handful, you're out!

I know, Teartracks.

And that could really happen. I like the way you are facing that fear head on and saying it out loud. I think that helps--at least it does me, when I do it.

If it does--if VESMB changes into what you fear, it will burn itself out. If the energy that is fueling this conflict is the actual presence of conflict, it wont be able to thrive without it. It's like a fire that burns itself out when the materials that fueled it run out. Rage that has no remaining target will turn on itself.

I may be wrong, but I think I'm observing a shorter elapsed time between conflicts and a movement to exclusiveness

I think you're probably right--but I think that may be because the conflict is fueled mainly in PM land, so it may not be time-between-conflicts. It may be ongoing and has never really ended. So what you are seeing is not a new conflict, but a flame shooting up from an undergrown fire that continues to burn.

Be it blessed or cursed, I tend to look at the big picture. I remain a, sometimes scorned, defender of VESMB as best I understand its intended function.

I know. I think the big picture is important and I think we need people who see it. Step back and bit and get the bigger picture. VESMB will be here for as long as we need it to be here. We are VESMB. When we are ready to let it go, we will. If we still need it, it will be here. I don't think that anyone can actually shut it down. Most of the really messy stuff is probably not even happening on the board--most of it seems to be behind the scenes.

Hang in there, TT. You've been here a long, long time. You've seen a lot. This too shall pass.

Love

CB

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 15, 2008, 11:25:01 AM

Hi folks,

Well, I really don't know what is going on behind the scenes, and I truly don't wish to be privy or included with whatever it may be, or not?

Personally, I don't assume.

I would so love to share of the beautiful uplifting PM that awaited me this morning from a member who has been 'lurking' -- the Bible verse therein was pure delight.

I am grateful for ALL the uplifting and encouraging words expressed, exchanged and shared here, and knowing some genuinely lovely, kind, sincere gentle hearted friends that I have made here.

What is paramount to during this stage of personal healing journey is that of spiritual healing, of which, I am thankful.

"God Bless You" (((((((( everyone )))))))))

Sincerely wishing everyone a truly Wonderful Peaceful Sunday.

Love to ALL,

Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Overcomer on June 15, 2008, 12:14:08 PM

I think I have figured it out. When I am strong I will add a word of encouragement or advise. When I am weak I will listen. I will try to avoid reading posts from the same few and will try to get to know people who only pop up every so often. I will avoid those people who rub me wrong and will try to avoid making the thread about me even if the situation reminds me of my life. If I do draw comparisons I will bring it back to their situation and try to offer support. I will love and respect

Title: Why are we seemingly devouring each other?
Post by: Leah on June 15, 2008, 12:48:37 PM

Hi folks,

Gosh, it's a bit too hot in the garden for me today, though I am not complaining, the sunshine is more than welcome after so much rain lately.

However, whilst sitting in the garden peacefully, listening to the birds and hearing children's laughter in the distance, I pondered awhile on what has sadly occurred here on the board today in a relatively short period of time -- seemingly all in an instant.

This is what I don't understand ...

Today: Chronology of Choice of Words – and the final outcome

   A personal thread is created with the choice of the “ We “ statement.

   The much discussed, and as I understand, recommended use of the “ I “ statement was not used.

   Thereby, understandably, questions and responses of clarification will occur - as did happen.

   A member posts that to question the creator of the thread - is 'absolutely out of order’ kind of thing -- directed at the two members.

   One member then responds – highlighting the full context of her post.

   The second member receives an acknowledgement response posting from the thread topic creator and all appears well, and in addition, and in conclusion, the member expresses words of encouragement and thanks, with blessings, for something that she learned from the thread topic creator.

   The second member responds to the member who had chimed in with an admonishment -- and in doing so, merely expresses her feelings of being wrongly perceived.

Final Outcome:

The second member is informed (with notification to the board owner) on a separate new thread, that a boundary has been set, and that henceforth, she cannot post or make reference to the thread topic owner.

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8017.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8017.0)

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8021.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8021.0)

This is truly so sad to see here right now, today.

Am I missing something? I really don’t understand “why?” all of this had to be.

Truly, I am bewildered.

Love to ALL

Leah

Why? Are we seemingly devouring one another?

Edit in: By the way, this, my posting, is of independent thought, and coincidently, there is a certain newish thread out on the board -- of which I have only just noticed, and read. Thank you, Leah.

>> In actual fact, I am one of the two members who received the admonishment.

Title: Re: Why are we seemingly devouring each other?
Post by: lighter on June 15, 2008, 01:02:48 PM

Hi Leah:

Thanks for being so concerned that you've inserted yourself, once again, in something that doesn't concern you.

I'm unable to deal with more conflict or appearance of such.

So, I'm drawing boundaries with everyone I feel I need to.

My choice is to step around, gently, or leave the board.

I understand your need to understand, but.... we don't always get that satisfaction, do we?

Lighter

Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 15, 2008, 12:48:37 PM

Hi folks,

Gosh, it's a bit too hot in the garden for me today, though I am not complaining, the sunshine is more than welcome after so much rain lately.

However, whilst sitting in the garden peacefully, listening to the birds and hearing children's laughter in the distance, I pondered awhile on what has sadly occurred here on the board today in a relatively short period of time -- seemingly all in an instant.

This is what I don't understand ...

Today: Chronology of Choice of Words – and the final outcome

   A personal thread is created with the choice of the “ We “ statement.

   The much discussed, and as I understand, recommended use of the “ I “ statement was not used.

   Thereby, understandably, questions and responses of clarification will occur - as did happen.

   A member posts that to question the creator of the thread - is 'absolutely out of order’ kind of thing -- directed at the two members.

   One member then responds – highlighting the full context of her post.

   The second member receives an acknowledgement response posting from the thread topic creator and all appears well, and in addition, and in conclusion, the member expresses words of encouragement and thanks, with blessings, for something that she learned from the thread topic creator.

   The second member responds to the member who had chimed in with an admonishment -- and in doing so, merely expresses her feelings of being wrongly perceived.

Final Outcome:

The second member is informed (with notification to the board owner) on a separate new thread, that a boundary has been set, and that henceforth, she cannot post or make reference to the thread topic owner.

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8017.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8017.0)

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8021.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8021.0)

This is truly so sad to see here right now, today.

Am I missing something? I really don’t understand “why?” all of this had to be.

Truly, I am bewildered.

Love to ALL

Leah

Why? Are we seemingly devouring one another?

Edit in: By the way, this, my posting has no relation or bearing on a certain newish thread out on the board -- of which I have only just noticed, and read. Thank you, Leah.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 16, 2008, 12:09:20 PM

OK, I've thought about this - about my participation on the board. Originally when I arrived here, I had worked through most of my emotional issues in therapy and hoped that I would find reassurance & support as I continued my journey of healing here. Turns out there was more emotional work to do - but none of it as debilitating as what I went through in therapy.

Have to say I've found that reassurance and more - I've found some funny, interesting, thought-provoking friends! People that I respect when they tell me I'm chasing my own tail - missing the obvious - or deceiving myself, even if I don't know them that well - or them, me. In the process, I've spent a lot of time on the board... posting, reading, learning, trying to help where I can, even if it's just commisseration and understanding. And it's been more time than I can afford to spend, in the future. I am re-engaging myself in 3-D... and taking care of things that slipped off my priority list, while I was working to get where I am today in self-acceptance.

CB is right that conflict is a normal part of any human group... and that healthy conflict helps us grow. Seen it happen, in 3-D.

Where I take issue with accepting the board's conflict of the past year, is that it has been normal. What I mean is, that I don't believe it's healthy or normal for people to try to control HOW people interact with them. I think NC is a good policy, if two people are rubbing each other the wrong way or are so far apart in their journeys that "never the twain shall meet".

On the other hand - for person A to dictate to person B the definition of help, constructive criticism, empathy, or any other interaction - and to play the victim, over & over again if people don't follow those "rules" of interacting with person A - yes, I mean Ami - only serves to put the "needs" of one person above the common good of the group. And I would question those "needs"... because most of us found our way here in the first place, BECAUSE someone "needed" to control us. I believe Ami's need to be the victim in all disputes manifests as a self-created, self-fulfilling prophecy and the consequent tippy-toeing around (walking on eggshells) we all do because of this, isn't a very healthy relationship at all and it has been impacting the health of the community, as well. It becomes an obstacle to newbies - in that it provides a confusing experience of what the board is like, and what could be a valuable resource for many.

So... while my decision to spend less time here is based on my own individual progress and needs and not the negative stuff, I did want to say plainly and simply why these conflicts - always with Ami at the center of them - bother me. I keep hoping that maybe "this time" she'll hear what people are trying to give to her... and that she hasn't cornered the market on feelings, bad experiences & pain - we all have our stories to tell, too. But this, for me, is like hoping my mother will someday tell the truth about what happened to me and what she did to me "for my own good". And I'm ready to let that struggle go....

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 12:51:58 PM

Dear Amber
I think you brought up a profound point.
I think we are ALL playing out OLD dramas using each other. That and mainly that is what causes our fights.
I am glad you brought up this point, Amber. It is good to see the futility of replaying old patterns.
Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 16, 2008, 01:03:36 PM

hi PR
I hope you are not leaving but spending less time is good.....for me anyway.

Your last post was right on target. I couldn't agree more.

Now I see that Ami agrees to a profound point. Hmm! Which point, Ami? Then you put All of us in the fray. Not at all true since there are those people to never enter the fray.

PR. I especially like your post, as I feel that my thoughts are further validated.

Izzy

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 16, 2008, 01:33:44 PM

Izzy, my dear! No, I won't go completely away - I have too many new friends here... I just won't be a regular anymore.
You can always reach me in PM-land...

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 01:41:57 PM

Izzy
You are a classic case of denial,better than any textbook. If you can live with it, more power to you, kid. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 16, 2008, 01:48:40 PM

Quote from: Ami on June 16, 2008, 12:51:58 PM

Dear Amber
I think you brought up a profound point.
I think we are ALL playing out OLD dramas using each other. That and mainly that is what causes our fights.
I am glad you brought up this point, Amber. It is good to see the futility of replaying old patterns.
Ami

I couldn't help but notice, since I posted right after this, that Ami had changed this post twice, after the original. I sense she has no idea what she wants to say, which affliction can come to anyone, bur hers is omnipresent.

About what am I in denial, Ami?

Izzy

EDIT in...What is a classic case of denial? Is that a label in psychiatry? so you are labeling me? With what, classic, case, or denial, or all three?

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 01:50:46 PM

Demasiado, in Spanish, too much. Sorry ,Izzy, my shrink hat is retired. I ,still ,wish you well, but must resist if you try to play out your old dramas on me. Blessings to you Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 01:56:28 PM

Izzy
I am sorry you are in so much pain that you have to go after me ,like this. What can I do? I can't help you. I am really sorry. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 16, 2008, 02:01:30 PM

No pain Ami
I just asked you questions that you cannot answer, or refuse to.
Then you pose a question to me.
What can you do? Nothing! I would suspect your advise would not be of any use.
Izzy

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 02:02:36 PM

I am sure my advice would be of no use to you. I wish you well and I will leave it at that. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 16, 2008, 02:03:23 PM

Ami:

I'm sorry you changed your post about only needing to be heard. About how all you need is someone to listen.

This is an important truth - in relationships with other people we each need to "hear" the other; to listen; to acknowledge. It is how we connect with other people and learn to share, to trust, and to care about ourselves and others. To be fair with each other.

When you ignore good advice given to you or say it doesn't apply to you ... or turn around aggressively to attack someone who is asking you to clarify something...

You are not listening; you are not accepting the other person's right to speak, to feel, to think for themselves; you are denying them what you say, you yourself need. That is an attempt to control; silence the other person; to dismiss the validity of what they feel, think, and ask and isn't fair.

Another important thing I'd like to say to you, Ami, before I become scarce:

My observations and opinions are about how you behave; the way I've seen you act - not about you, as person with potential to heal and become whole.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 16, 2008, 02:04:27 PM

Ami and Izzy,

Respectully ask that if you would like to address chronic conflict or irritation, that you open a fresh thread and handle it there. See below for more thoughts on why, but my main reason is hoping for this thread to stay respectful, without jabs.

Amber and Ami,

Amber's post here included criticism but no sarcasm or baiting. Still, if Amber and/or Ami need to talk about Amber's post further, I'd be grateful if one of you could start another thread to air it out. Let's just skip lastworditis. Other members could post on your new thread in support, posing questions to help you resolve it or come to new boundaries, or whatever. That'd be ideal. But it's up to you.

This thread may bring up issues of conflict, that's natural. But once it's clear two are in conflict, I think it'd be good for those two to open a fresh thread. Then maybe each instance of conflict (or a pattern where patterns are identified) can be addressed more cleanly, and not infect the whole board.

I'd really this thread to stay on the general topic of board health, dominance, quantity-vs.-quality of posts, and other issues specific to rebuilding the health of the board for everyone.

thanks,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 16, 2008, 02:05:51 PM

Will do, Hops.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 02:07:07 PM

Dear Amber
I think it should have become clear to you a long time ago(Janet thread) that we did not resonate with each other. I thought I was clear in that stance.
I am sorry you felt the need to try to change me when I was not at all open to it .
It is a good lesson for you, I am sure.
Decide ,first, if the person wants your input before you frustrate yourself in trying to give it. Ami

Hops
I have nothing more to say to Amber ,on the topic.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: tayana on June 16, 2008, 02:09:01 PM

I have infrequently posted ever since nearly every thread seemed to erupt into some internal conflict. The board has a very different feel than when I rejoined a year and a half ago, many of the people who were posting then, are no longer posting. I don't think this constant drama and cries for attention are healthy, personally, and this is one reason I have avoided posting on the board. Sometimes though, I like to hear opinions besides my partner's. That is why I have posted a few things lately.

I am working on many of my issues in therapy. My partner has a verbal cue she gives me when I slip into victim mode, and she forces me to talk when I don't want to. I don't NEED the board, really, but I do like to come here and check in and update folks on my progress.

However, with each infrequent visit, I find more and more board conflict, most of it centered around one or two people who take every comment personally whether or not it is directed toward that person. Then the accusations and flames start flying. It's too much like living with my parents. I keep hoping the board will return to the healthy, helpful place it once was, but so far that hasn't happened.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 02:11:42 PM

There are boards with more moderation, Tayana. Barbera Rogers has a wonderful board where there is no conflict at all, only support. Maybe ,that would work better for you. Good luck with it and I wish you well, if that is your choice. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 16, 2008, 02:13:28 PM

Thanks, Amber.

Tayana, I hope so too.

Hope the discussion continues.

xo
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 16, 2008, 02:20:29 PM

My apologies to you, Hopalong, for falling into an issue with another, on your thread.
I sign off
Izzy

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: tayana on June 16, 2008, 02:21:15 PM

Ami, I have made friends here, whose opinion I value. All boards have conflicts from time to time. Are you asking me to leave this board? I only pointed out that with my infrequent visits the board seems to denigrate into continuous conflict and it never seems to return to a status quo situation. I often read the first few pages of threads and think, "More bickering."

As I said in my previous post, I don't really NEED the support of the board. I have a wonderful partner and child, and a therapist who is helping me deal with my emotional problems. I like coming to the board to discuss issues, reconnect with friends, and talking to people who truly understand what my family is like. That is all. If I wanted a board with more support, I guarantee I could find one. In fact, the board at http://www.drirene.com/ (http://www.drirene.com/) is quite supportive and much more active. I have posted there before.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 02:24:05 PM

I am glad for you, Tayana. I am glad you have friends at this board and the other, as well as a wonderful partner.
Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 16, 2008, 02:34:06 PM

No prob, ((((Izz)))).
Just a gentle nudge.

xo
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 16, 2008, 02:35:03 PM

Hi, Hops,

Requesting no contact in certain cases is proving to be the best action for me in allowing for continued progress toward healing instead of repeated steps into the muck.

I've no desire to re-enact any conflicts, old or new... and I do not believe that most folks here on this board are interested in pursuing that mode.
Maybe that happens unconsciously, at times, but with increased self-awareness, I'm thinking that it can be cut off at the pass.
Long before all of that is untangled and sorted, a request for no contact can quiet the bruhaha (no clue how to spell it) sufficiently to allow for navigation across some slippery slopes.

Those are just my thoughts. And thanks again for this thread, Hops.

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 02:37:51 PM

I, so ,agree, with the sentiments. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 16, 2008, 03:00:40 PM

Hi folks,

Please let it be know that I personally have no desire for conflicts, in particular, having researched, read, and posted onto this board, of the root cause of such tumult.

I have researched back and read through much of the archives and ascertained that this board has had conflicts on-going from its inception some 5 years ago -- which is the truth.

Personally, I do feel it is possible to enjoy a healthy community, wherein, healthy reciprocal respect and consideration, one for another, and acceptance of each individual regardless of status or ability, race, culture or faith (or none).

I believe that diversity and acceptance, with respectful tolerance and understanding goes along way to finding the key to the door -- for the way out to life anew in harmony and accord.

Thoughts of (((((( Everyone ))))))

Love to ALL

Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 03:02:07 PM

Leah said it all! Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 16, 2008, 03:08:09 PM

Ami - what is your contribution to this thread?

What do you think is the cause of the conflicts? the cure?

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 04:52:18 PM

If you start a new thread, I may answer Amber. I can detect baiting,but we shall see. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Sela on June 16, 2008, 05:09:30 PM

Hiya Hops,

It's good to see some posters who've been off for awhile. Hi Ya'll!! Hope you are well!!
Thanks for this thread, Hops. Thanks for expressing it all so honestly and openly, rather than just disappearing ....going away without trying to understand or explain (not that I don't understand going away quietly without expressing or explaining.....been there, done that. I just really appreciate you taking the time, Hops. Really, I do).

Quote

I would like for newcomers to have a sense of spaciousness. Of quiet welcome and patient openness. Receptivity.

If I have ever read a post of yours, Hops, to any newcomer.......you have surely offered each one such a space.....always with kindness and gentle wisdom. Sorry if that's too mushy.....kissy....lovey-dovey ......it's the absolute truth, in my head and so I have no worries of saying so and hope if others feel .....off....reading that....that they will just skip over to the next person's post ('cause this one ain't likely to hit home. Sorry. We are all different).

Anyway, without you on this board, newcomers will have one less kind, caring soul to greet them and that idea makes me feel sad.

On the other hand, I perfectly understand your desire and explanation .......have popped off myself for similar, if not exact reasons.........totally acknowledge that sometimes......a break is needed/necessary and so then I wish you well, Hops, many blessings and send a great hug filled with love off with you.

Sometimes, it feels like we are all just children here.

Reliving the horrors we've experienced (be that in child or adulthood.....which each reduce us to a child-like state). If you think about it....what does that mean?

To me....it means a state of unprotected need.

Don't we all come here needing? Wanting protection/relief from what ails us?
Aren't we all the same in that respect?

But it's like the blind leading the blind.
How can one needy child lead another needy child through a whole group of needy children, all thinking they know how to lead the new needy child better than anyone?

None of us really does know how to help the other (just my opinion). I think......plenty of people here try and some even succeed, but often it's by mistake or luck or something. I think we try to guess eachother's needs maybe?

When it comes down to it.....we've all been taught to shut up and stop pretending we need anything.
Our needs have been belittled, insulted, discarded, ignored, ridiculed, minimized, forgotten.....worst...practically beaten out of our heads(either physically or emotionally that is).
So when .......especially....we first come here......we have no idea what we need or how to ask for it....or even how to accept it.....if by chance it happens to fall in our lap (by the grace of someone trying to help or give back). To me......so many conflicts here begin by two methods:

1. Misunderstanding (one person thinking they know/deciding the intentions of others or just not hearing what that person is trying to say)

and

2. Projection/whatever it's-called---being triggered by another and often not even aware of reliving past FOO stuff via a current interaction.

Check it out and see if this makes any sense to you. Maybe I'm cracked? (hahaha.....it's almost certain!!)

Maybe in our childlike, needy state.......we need to do that? Sometimes I wonder if it isn't cleansing? If so.....I don't mind then....being someone's "target"......if it helps them to purge their pain, once and for all. I need to remember...that might be what's happening though. I forget sometimes.

Anyway......yep.....for me......the conflicts here have gone from emotionally staggering to almost.....boring......same old.......yadda yadda.

So I ask myself...what does that say about me? Does it mean something really good or really bad or something in the middle? Am I "past" the conflict stuff here? I know I can't be bothered half the time (those are my selfish days). Am I beyond it? (don't think I can learn anything from it?) Is that a good thing? Does it still upset me to see conflict here? ......

I'll leave a few of those unanswered because I'm not certain even I know for sure.

I like what Tayanna said about it being......"constant drama and attention"......

That's a good description for those involved in conflict on the board.

Is that a need, I wonder?

Is it sinful? Shameful?

Therapeautic?

Let's face it, we children have not had the proper drama and attention. Our dramas have all been .......excuse me.....

frigged up.

And attention? Ha!!

Not the proper kind from any N I know. I don't think many of us have had proper attention...proper love.

So no wonder we need/want/drum up ......almost as part of our journey to healing or metamorphosis or whatever we wanna call it.......

these many conflicts.

Personally, I see people grow here.....so much. Often ......from screaming, crying, kicking infants to reasonably sane and calm adults. It's practically miraculous!! Wonderful to watch. It's often a long, slow process but I love it when I read some of the things I read here! I even hear some of them!!

Imo, many come here not just voiceless but also.....

deaf. (frightened, defensive, tunnel visioned, needing more than anything......safety, warmth, love).

It's the hearing........that looks so lovely to me. When people hear eachother here......it's a sure sign of healing, if you ask me. It's when they find that truly safe place of warmth and maybe when they really feel loved? I dunno. It's just what I think and feel. It's nice to feel heard and great to be able to hear. Not all of the time but even some of the time.

Just my 42 cents. Ramble ramble. Hope no one fell asleep.

Sela

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Sela on June 16, 2008, 05:28:10 PM

Ami,

I respectfully disagree with your comment (upon edit: which was something to the effect that we all can only heal ourselves and then we'll have a healthy community--your comment now erased---see....I didn't hear that clearly or I'd remember exactly what you wrote! Pass the q-tips!). There have been people here who have helped me heal by bothering to look and express their thoughts.....ask questions......try to understand ....help me figger out what I need.......take a guess at what I needed, etc. Without their help.....I would be back where I was....suffering alone......wandering.....going in circles.

If we only need ourselves to heal......there would be no use for such a board.

If this makes sense to you, I'm glad. If not.....please don't take it personally. It's just my opinion.

Sela

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 05:30:06 PM

I was just gonna erase my post b/c YOU are right, Sela. Thank you for pointing that out. I did not express myself clearly. I agree with you. Blessings, Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: tayana on June 16, 2008, 05:31:52 PM

To add to Sela's post:

If all we needed to do to heal was look inside ourselves, then we wouldn't need therapists and psychiatrists. Unfortunately, they seem to do a very good business listening to us voice our fears, problems and hurts.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 05:33:08 PM

You are so right on, Tayana. Thanks for your very astute observation. Peace, Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: teartracks on June 16, 2008, 05:36:46 PM

Hi CB,

Hi CB,

Wonderfullly said and painfully true.

What's wrong with admitting that we are selfish, self-absorbed? That we gossip sometimes? That we arent completely loyal friends? Why do we feel as though we have to prove that we are perfect in order to be accepted? I have been, I have done all those things. But it isnt the sum-total of who I am. I am bigger than those things. I am constantly turning a corner in a labyrinth and coming across something unexpected. I am dirty and I have skinned knees. I have a bloody nose. Sometimes I hurt people coming around the corner, sometimes I help them up. Sometimes I dont realize who I ran over until I look back. Jeez, I'm a mess.

Thank you so much for your sobering input.

Last night I watched Mia Farrow's biography on Lifetime. She said this that struck me as truth in my life experience and especially in light of all that transpired on the board recently.

“I get it now; I didn't get it then. That life is about losing and about doing it as gracefully as possible... and enjoying everything in between.”

So, I'm agreeing. I get it that Just because everyone in the community is not behaving well, doesn't mean that the community itself is unhealthy.

Almost every time there is 'conflict' like the one this week, I write what has come to sound even to me like a tired form letter chastising members for not being heads up and for not self monitoring more effectively with the whole of the VESMB community in mind. I never feel really heard when I fire out these retorts. (I now realize, I wasn't saying what was in my mind clearly.) So today, I'm going to try and speak my fear in a way that won't insult reason.

Here goes: Back toward the end of the ReallyMe days, someone said something to the affect (or is it effect) that a board they had participated on had been reduced to a handful of women because of the destructive activity of person(s) bent on destroying the board. In other words, a perfectly good board had been destroyed by conflicts intentionally introduced for that very purpose. Destroy, destroy, destroy. You see, when I fire out my same ole, same ole retort during conflicts, it is not because I object to people who are at the stage you describe here: I think that there are some members here that are crashing and burning and that it is not a negative thing at all. They are crashing and burning on their way to a lot of insight. That's a good thing. Painful to watch though. Rather, it is because I fear that the best place I know for those exact people to experience what you describe is under attack and that they and I may be but one conflict away from having this soft place to fall. My fear is not of the conflict bound to come from these who've suffered untold abuse. My fear is that VESMB will be reduced to a handful of like minded members who have for whatever reason (perhaps the herd mentality), agreed not to disagree, bent on thereby, converting the best board in existence on voicelessness to one of exclusion. If you don't agree with the handful, you're out! People who spend their time smoozing and blowing kisses to one another endlessly. My one and only fear is that VESMB's effectiveness will be reduced to THAT! I may be wrong, but I think I'm observing a shorter elapsed time between conflicts and a movement to exclusiveness. As much as I would like to think that my fears have no real foundation, when it's all said and done and I've said my piece, that's what everything I've said about conflict on the board is about. Threats to the very existence of the board is my overall and somewhat consuming concern. Blessed or cursed, I see the big picture. Be it blessed or cursed, I tend to look at the big picture. I remain a, sometimes scorned, defender of VESMB as best I understand its intended function.

A remaining question may be, tt, do you have a person or persons in mind as you write this. The answer is no. Do I become suspicious as conflicts manifest? Edit in: As regards the foregoing, you betcha. Do I think I have the market cornered on discernment? No. Do I think that what I've said here necessitates a response from anyone? No. Do I think that what I have to say has merit and bears consideration? Yes.

tt

Thank you so much for validating my fear as that, just fear. It took some time for me to accept that I was experiencing a fear that the board would go extinct. Codependence. I've learned another facet of it. Its symptoms aren't necessarily exclusive to relationships between people. It is exhibited in many ways. Duh! I think I've recognized that the fear I expressed in that post may just be another kind of codependence. I would love to hear your thoughts re board codependence.

tt

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sea storm on June 16, 2008, 06:07:00 PM

I think the board is healthy, robust, combative, loving, nudging, irritating and messy and at times funny. Sometimes it is really boring and boring posts dominate for awhile. I don't really know why this ebb and flow happens. It always amazes me that there are enough sane, sage and well spoken people to tame down the more batty posters. Eventually, it seems even the easily triggered and rather paranoid ones get the message. Which is: we are here for each other, to love and support each other and validate the truth of their stories. This does not mean that every word I will write hear will be set to music and everyone will swoon with affirmation and delight. At times I have felt the barbs of disapproval. Rarely, has it not been deserved.

I used to get very hurt by the slightest thing on the board. I remember once i posted, early on, and people just started yakking about everything and anything. I went bananas. How rude I thought when I was so DESPERATE to be heard and understood. I said how I felt and learned a lot.

The Dalai Lama says that irritating, hostile people are great teachers. I agree. How this is handles on the board is part of the committment to being here. I have grown tired of the board and felt that it was getting off track into more of a coffee klatch sort of thing. On the other hand, I am no longer baring my soul here. I still require soul baring but I just don't do it. So I am part of the problem.

When Hops said she may be leaving I gasped. Oh please dont go. i find her posts are the veritable Beethoven;s Fifth of posts. She is so compassionate, astute, knowledgeable and present. When I check in I go see her first. I see she is stewarding the flock nicely, with integrity and wisdom. Bickering back and forth on posts is annoying. It really is. Stick to making "I ' Statements. This gossiping is petty and wreeks of lateral violence.

This is an open space and like the town square in olden days, there are bound to be wingbats. But there are also revolutionaries and visionaries and torchbearers.

Maybe it is time for Hops to write a book about all this. Heaven knows she speaks with the voice of angels about something that is dark and like a nuclear winter in our society. Eating away at the underpinnings.

On the other hand if it is not safe for her to show her soft underbelly here, then we should all hang our heads and smarten up pronto.

Much love,

Sea storm

Title: Enabling in the Community
Post by: Leah on June 16, 2008, 06:50:28 PM

I really do think that with the best intentions in the world, or community -- in meaning well -- a person in the role of Enabling - to the Enabled person (recipient)

creates a perpetual ride on the merry-go-round or carousel, which ultimately, creates confusion, rather than clarity, as both parties (or all) are swept along, and/or spun around.

Leah x

We often begin enabling in an attempt to be kind and helpful. For example, we may wake someone so they are not late to work.

Enablers may have their own system of denial that is fed by the lies and deceptions of the person whom they seek to help.

The Effects of Enabling

As enabling behavior becomes routine, we end up feeling frustrated, ineffectual, and angry. Often, we continue to enable because we don't want to appear mean or unreasonable.

Enabling behaviors directly and indirectly support the vicious cycle of never-ending problems.

When we stop enabling, when we stop helping and covering up for the person, we allow the person to experience the consequences of their out-of-control behavior.

We stop shielding them from the consequences of their behavior.

Enabling Is Self-Defeating

When we begin enabling, we often believe we are being helpful. When we find that our efforts are ineffective and the problems continue and become more pronounced, we feel frustrated, resentful, and angry. As the disease and our enabling progresses , our initial discomfort becomes intensified with feelings that can include anger, rage, hostility, sadness, and distrust. Sometimes we become totally numb rather than experience the pain, or we become overly active to avoid feeling. Our focus becomes more and more centered on supporting and protecting the individual and centered less on our own needs. We often feel hopeless, defeated, and depressed. This cycle of problems feeding problems continues until we decide to stoop enabling.

Changing Enabling Behavior

The intensity of enabling behaviors is determined by a variety of factors. For example, if you were raised in a dysfunctional family, your tendencies to adopt enabling behaviors or renew other codependent behaviors may be more easily triggered by a current crisis or continued stress.

When we begin to identify and change our behaviors, they don't just disappear all at once. Changing takes time and practice, practice, practice. With this in mind, we can look at some examples of changing enabling behaviors.

· Stop making excuses to others for situations or problems.

· Refuse to lie.

· Do not continue useless arguments. Go to a movie, take a walk, read a good book, or go to a support group meeting.

· If safe and appropriate, discuss your concerns with the person in a non-emotional way.

· Find a support system - Private therapy or counseling, a spiritual advisor or minister, or trustworthy friends.

When you begin to change your enabling behavior it is helpful to have a private counselor or therapist, who is familiar with your individual circumstances. They can be key to achieving positive changes in you.

Changing your enabling behavior sets the person free -- to seek help, and work through, their own personal issues.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 07:01:31 PM

I think you are saying ,Leah,that we need to STAND UP, always. Truth is the healer, in the community ,as well as within the person.'"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free." Love Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 16, 2008, 07:16:13 PM

Wow.... sea storm.

::clapping quietly::

Well done.

Now.....

the tricky part is......

everone's sitting around thinking....

"those darned wingbats."

Lighter; )

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 16, 2008, 07:17:05 PM

Yes, the truth makes one free, indeed, Ami

However, with regard to enabling and the enabled, instead:

Standing up on ones own two feet -- and allow others to stand up on their own two feet.

Allowing each individual member of the community to simply BE accountable -- for their own life choices, behavioral thoughts, words and actions.

Refrain from reaching out with Enabling behavior -- which though apparently well meaning, in effect, amounts to a means of self gratification and uplifting, or self esteem, or even maybe, false self.

No elevated platform, instead, a level ground upon which to build upon -- a solid foundation for healthy healing and growth.

So that all may work through, dig deep for, and find -- ones authentic self.

Hence, community - team spirit, working together and building!

Love to you, and everyone.

Leah

PS. Much better than remaining seated on the perpetual carousel.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 07:21:18 PM

I think, Leah, that we can say the TRUTH, walk in truth to the best of our ability and that is all. Many people can see the truth, Sister. Love Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 16, 2008, 07:33:25 PM

Leah.... I'm a bit confused, which isn't unusual, but....

it seems there've been a lot of threads on enabling lately....

great posts btw.

Why has it cropped up here, on the healthy community thread?

Not complaining, just curiouse, and I find I need to ask for clarification on many of your posts.... bc our styles are so different.

Lighter

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 16, 2008, 07:39:35 PM

Hi Lighter,

Because, I do think that in a healthy community, as expressed in the above posting, Enabling is not helpful and creates a carousel of frustation in the long term, which may have an adverse effect.

Just my thoughts on the subject of what is fruitful in a healthy community, and what may not be.

Enabling was mentioned by another member a day or two ago.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 16, 2008, 07:47:50 PM

We can ONLY walk with truth, Leah. That is a paradigm of life , Sister. Love Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 16, 2008, 07:49:44 PM

Ahhh... I must have missed that post.

I read many others on enabling though.... and remembered them.

Thanks

Lighter

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 16, 2008, 08:03:25 PM

Just want to re-post part of the intention for this thread:

Quote

This is an invitation to anyone who has felt there was no point in posting, or who has not spoken much lately, and who would like to have a quiet SHARED dicussion, as in taking turns, with mutliple voices rather than only the familiar few.

(I'm reminding myself too, as I'm surely one of the FF--familiar few...)

Opening the door, wider...

love,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: CB123 on June 16, 2008, 08:15:58 PM

Thanks for the re-direction, Hopsy. I really appreciate this thread a lot and I appreciate you taking the time to protect it's intent. Just wanted to take a minute and tell you that.

Hot date tonight! hee hee I'll be back later to add some thoughts...Glad to see you popping in for a bit.

Love,
CB

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 16, 2008, 08:23:30 PM

I have just gone back to check the thread in reference.

If I may give an example, recently, a newbie joined the board, on May 31, 2008, namely, Oops,

and I was amazed, well to be honest, I was actually quite bewildered -- to see that only Ami, Changing, and myself -- posted on a thread extending a warm welcome.

Amazed because there were many members posting at that time, and thereafter.

But, no other member posted to the thread, that I had created simply to extend a warm friendly welcome to a new member, and encourage our new member to join with us in community.

To be honest, I don't think we extend enough interest in a new member joining, and I think that may be one reason why they fade away (conflict aside).

Just my thoughts and observation.

Leah x

Edit: typo error.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 16, 2008, 08:50:08 PM

I must say, to all, that the name "OOps" made me think of a mistake in typing and I tended to ignore it. I think.

If I ignored a newbie, I am sorry!

Izzy

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 16, 2008, 09:03:09 PM

Ouch, Leah.

I have to say..... I experience an eb and flow in posting energy.

Sometimes, I don't have the ability to focus on new voices.

If I don't have something signifigant to say...

and someone's posted to the newcomer.....

I'm relieved and post where I do I feel I can post something more signifigant.

I don't think anyone here would leave a newcomer's post hang, without any response, though.

Lighter

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 17, 2008, 10:10:51 AM

Here is a story from my past life as a prof, that relates to healthy, productive community.

I used to co-teach a class in systems design & development - a capstone course for students in the IT program. Some majored in networking, some programming, some graphics...

On the first day of class, we presented students with a real-life client, with a real-life need... and then we asked the class: so how do propose meeting this client's need? Who can do which part of the work? What's the method of working you want to use? Can you meet the deadline (final presentation on the last day of class)?

This was always met with dropped jaws, looks of terror & confusion... because these students were used to a teacher standing up & blabbing... and the student's only task was to know what the teacher blabbed about. But once they understood the "rules" - that they themselves were making the rules, setting the goals, doing the research, the building, writing the reports and explanations... the class quickly became their (and our) favorite day of the week. The large group was often broken down into smaller groups working on parts of the total design solution - but we always came back to the whole group, to gauge progress.

Well, have to say, sometimes there were tears... frustration... anger... because this kind of class was so far out of the students comfort zone; mostly from the adult students - the younger students dove right in. And each group would have a self-designated leader... and yes, there were people who didn't do the work assigned to them or who actually disrupted and interfered with the group's work. As teachers - we did not get involved. When the other students in the group came to us, complaining... asking us to "do something"... we let them know, that they themselves could do whatever they decided - including kicking that student OUT of the group. It would mean that student failed the course, but if they had set criteria for the offending student's participation - and the student failed to meet that expectation - then we would accept their judgement of failed course participation, and assign that grade to the student.

Of course, we would always answer requests for HELP - even from that student. But if the student didn't own up and be responsible for his own participation and deliverable work to his/her group... there simply wasn't any way we would pass that student.

But the point I'm trying to make, is that it was the group itself that made decisions like this - not us, as teachers - even though we could clearly see who was shouldering most of the work & responsibility. We kept providing opportunities for ALL students to make a contribution; to step up to the plate and hold up their assigned responsibility. But when a student clearly got in the way of work - of meeting the goal, which was a feasible design solution to the real-life "problem" and building a prototype - when a student became a problem for the group, the group itself had the means to take action if they so desired. And as teachers, we weren't involved in that process. And sometimes, students would self-select to drop the class (or simply not show up) - and made it easy for the group to re-divide the work load and still succeed.

That, in reality, is the way ALL groups work, isn't it?

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 17, 2008, 10:15:41 AM

Quote

That, in reality, is the way ALL groups work, isn't it?

Amber,

Yes, I believe so. That's the way groups of mature, healthy adults work, imo... and - if I'm not aiming for that goal within my own group relationships, then I'm dishonoring both myself as an individual and disrespecting the integrity of the group with whom I'm associated.

Thank you so much for this insight, Amber.

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 17, 2008, 10:33:26 AM

A good friend of mine was secretary for her Quaker meeting. She was/is such a lovely human being, never said a bad word about anybody. But there were times when even the profound peacefulness of her faith would fail her. She told a story that left me in stitches (and deepened my understanding of the Friends):

At meetings, which went on for hours because of the Quaker belief in Consensus (no decision would go forward without every single voice being heard until the ENTIRE GROUP was in agreement), there would be near-consensus, and after taking notes for literally hours she'd be breathing a sigh of relief, it's almost over, then JUST as things seemed so close to consensus, she'd hear a wavery voice from another pew and someone would be saying, "Friends, I have another thought to share..." and poor C's brain would boil and she'd sit there with her hand cramping thinking very very un-Quakerly thoughts. :lol:

So I was just thinking, even if a majority of folks on the board realized they were mostly in agreement about the primary problems, what would they do? We could hold meetings on subjects such as:

What seems to be the epicenter of most quakes on the board?
How much damage is done?
Are the aftershocks over?
Are the scientists explaining how the quake starts and spreads?
Do we get it?
Do we linger around the fault lines because the landscape is lovely?
Are there undersea quakes?
Can we just ride the nice waves?
Will they be small enough to cause entertaining action, but not as big as tsunamis?
Are there Noctopi, with tentacles in every thread, who might be squirting too much ink?
Is the ocean's health limitless? Can it absorb everything released into it?
Can too much Noctopus ink actually harm the ecosystem?

And for me, the most important question:
Am I a Noctopus?
(Don't answer that...) :)

love,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 17, 2008, 10:44:11 AM

lol...

Hops, I do love you so.

Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 17, 2008, 10:47:52 AM

:shock:

Those were all really good questions, Hops.

I wanna know the answers also!

Enjoyed the story too.

Lighter

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 17, 2008, 10:50:31 AM

Wisdom, Hops. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 17, 2008, 11:40:18 AM

I wish to share my thoughts regarding a realization - of the IMPACT within this community:

The No Contact Order Ruling -- Effects ALL members of the board -- ALL Current members and ALL New Members.

A valid point to consider: those who are bound in NC cannot post onto a thread of a "warm welcome extended to a new member" when it is created by a NC person or persons !!!

Do we perhaps need to ask Dr Grossman to create a permenant thread at the top of the board - explaining, highlighting, and listing, ALL members who are rendered void in posting to a new member

because they are each in a binding NC rule. Which might be helpful to new members who may feel bewildered and confused with the board dynamics.

[ No Contact Order - which may be slapped on an person with no basic human right of reply - or hope of a healthy reconciliation and restitution]

My thoughts and observation, as also, I can * see * that this new No Contact ruling in the board dynamics and group think -- effects ALL people on the board - Current members and NEW Members !

The recipient of the No Contact is free to create a thread of " warm welcome to new member " -- however, not ALL members may choose to post onto the thread?!

(By the way, please let it be known, that I personally, have not, ever, created any No Contact ruling order on anyone here on board).

So in essence, a No Contact Ruling in this place - in the board dynamics - is never really all about you, yourself -- in reality it effects ALL people, ALL members.

There is a BIG difference and a choice ...

> Creating a personal Boundary (to prevent direct communication)

OR

> Creating and Enforcing No Contact Ruling Order (to prevent the recipient from posting onto your thread - and also, thereby, preventing the recipient any communication with others on your thread

in effect, preventing inclusion in the open discussion, thereby, creating exclusion )

Hence, the No Contact Order Ruling effects the board - for ALL members in this 'community' and especially NEW Members.

The sole reason, the ONLY reason for sharing of what I have realized today is this ...... the IMPACT ...... of what ONE person does to ANOTHER ....... CREATES a harmful ripple effect for others.

Love to ALL,

Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 17, 2008, 11:51:25 AM

Leah,

I think there has to be a way for people to draw these kinds of boundaries and to enforce it to feel comfortable - but, I do see the new problem you've described.

Some discussion board software allows individuals to "ignore" other members - i.e, not to see the other person's participation on the board, no matter what thread. And of course, PMs can be blocked. I don't know if this software allows this... but in the case of an apology or change of heart - the person who turns on the "ignore" setting can also turn it off.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 17, 2008, 02:32:19 PM

Quote from: lighter on June 16, 2008, 09:03:09 PM

I don't think anyone here would leave a newcomer's post hang, without any response, though.

Lighter

Dear Lighter,

I agree, newbies do need a reaching hand to them.

But, I've learned on VESMB to be caution of newbies.

Just because someone is new does not make them safe.

However, I'll try to reach out with a simple welcome and unless I feel a strong desire or connection then I pretty much just leave others to connect with them. I hang back and watch newbies...checking to see who they are. There are trolls in cylberland...I am not speaking about now or the past....I am just speaking generally, the fact of the matter is that newbies should not be granted so much blanket consideration before we know who they really are. Yet, we can still extend ourselves to them.

Personally, I do not measure my desire to stay on a board by how many people reached out to me. It was the content of the weight of one or two peoples words and warmth to me which kept me coming back.

One of the beauties of this board is that not everyone connects with everyone; we are all so different. Some people are going to connect with the newbies, some will not. I tend to think that if a newbie really wants their voice heard and is ready for this board, then they will step in to post, regardless.

Lise

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 17, 2008, 02:49:18 PM

Oh gosh, Lise....

I know it's just a difference in the way you & I are "built", but I simply can't distrust someone until they've given me reason to. I don't think that's fair to the person in question. I would state what you bolded as:

New people are "safe" for me, until I have evidence otherwise.

Yeah - I've gotten into some real pickles because of this tendency! But I simply can't walk around in my own skin comfortably, without this assumption that people are safe - until I know differently. And I'd be afraid that newbies could sense someone's wariness...

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 17, 2008, 02:56:10 PM

Quote from: PhoenixRising on June 17, 2008, 02:49:18 PM

Oh gosh, Lise....

I know it's just a difference in the way you & I are "built", but I simply can't distrust someone until they've given me reason to. I don't think that's fair to the person in question. I would state what you bolded as:

New people are "safe" for me, until I have evidence otherwise.

Yeah - I've gotten into some real pickles because of this tendency! But I simply can't walk around in my own skin comfortably, without this assumption that people are safe - until I know differently. And I'd be afraid that newbies could sense someone's wariness...

What you wrote is exactly what I was saying you just wrote it out with different words sort of putting a spin on my words.

But, that is pretty much what I WAS saying...

"Just because someone is new does not make them safe."

The above is a statement of fact....not judgement.

PR -- Most of the times that you have posted to me on the board I feel nauseated when I read your posts.

Lise

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 17, 2008, 03:02:24 PM

Quote from: PhoenixRising on June 17, 2008, 02:49:18 PM

And I'd be afraid that newbies could sense someone's wariness...

This above is a statement that reveals control issues.

There was nothing in my post that says that I am not warm and friendly to newbies....just cautious, the way I wish I had been with N-Saint.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 17, 2008, 03:08:58 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: CB123 on June 17, 2008, 03:21:33 PM

Amber, I am wary of initiating PM's right now, but if I were to PM you, I would tell you how sorry I am that you were on the receiving end of this comment. That hurts.

I have followed your growth through the last several months and it has been exhilarating to see such rapid change in someone (of course, I know it only seems rapid to me--you have had years and years of struggle to get where you are.)

Thank you for being here, for sharing your journey. You don't deserve that comment.

CB

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 17, 2008, 03:56:55 PM

Lise, please:

Quote

I ask that it be respectful and kind and mature

thanks,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 17, 2008, 04:07:07 PM

Quote

Quote from: PhoenixRising on Today at 11:49:18 AM
And I'd be afraid that newbies could sense someone's wariness...

Quote

Quote from Gabben
This above is a statement that reveals control issues.

When I see what PR wrote and how Gabben interpreted it, I am amazed. I don't see that as controlling. I see someone's opinion.

Now if it is controlling, then I might be not reading people at all correctly. This would account for my just not understnading life... for a very long time, then came here to voice, so people would understand, and I haven't learned a thing.

Obviously this is nothing against PR or Gabben.

This is questioning my own interpretations of posts, and might be why mine say what I mean with no underhanded messages, good or bad, above board!

Izzy

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 17, 2008, 04:17:34 PM

Thank you, Izzy

Because to me personally, having sat here and read again what was expressed, I could only see, discern and decide, that Amber had merely expressed her own opinion.

I genuinely feel validated as discerning correctly.

Love,

Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 17, 2008, 04:30:55 PM

Quote from: PhoenixRising on June 17, 2008, 03:08:58 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Thanks Amber for allowing me the expression and the benefit of the doubt as well as not invalidating my feelings.

It is just that there is sometimes a great deal of projection as well as misreading of my posts by you. That is my truth. When others shame us...through comparison statements as well as put spins on our words, it feels icky...wouldn't you say?

Perhaps you are not as aware that you are doing this?

Your post felt like you were having knee jerk reaction to my words.

Of course I have always been very kind and warm to newbies. My post was not to say that I do not trust them...THOSE WERE NOT MY WORDS -- once again Amber, you put words in my mouth. My post was to say that I remain cautious...there is a difference.

No one likes having words put in there mouth, correct?

Lise

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 17, 2008, 04:39:56 PM

Hi Lise,

If you'd like to discuss a conflict with Amber, would you mind starting a separate thread for it?

thanks,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 17, 2008, 04:40:47 PM

Dear Izzy,

The reason that statement is an issue of control is that we have no control over how others feel and think.

I certainly can try to empathize with newbies... if there had been people here that were kindly blind and unquestioning to me when I first got here it would have created a wariness in me, it would have felt as though a bunch of hungry unscrutinizing cult followers were trying to buy me in with undeserved kindness.

Anywhere we go in life we have to prove ourselves - even message boards.

Actually, I respect communites where I have to watch my footing and prove myself before others grant me FULL trust and warmth.

Otherwise, I have to ask myself why they are they SO nice?

Lise

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 17, 2008, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: Hopalong on June 17, 2008, 04:39:56 PM

Hi Lise,

If you'd like to discuss a conflict with Amber, would you mind starting a separate thread for it?

thanks,
Hops

Actually, Hops,

No... I am done discussing it -- I have said all that I need to. If Amber would like to discuss it with me then she can start a new thread.

Feel free to go back to controlling your thread, I am sorry for the interruption.

Lise

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 17, 2008, 04:46:57 PM

That's okay, just a nudge.
(I usually couldn't care pish for diversions from topic.
Just thought I'd try with this thread to steer it a little.)

Thank you, Lise.

Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 18, 2008, 07:34:39 AM

Some new thoughts on this topic:

In a healthy community, the rules as stated apply to all. There are no special dispensations, no free passes, for behavior that violates the rules. No matter who the people are or what their situation is.

To allow behavior in SOME that violates the rules of the board against hateful, abusive, and accusatory remarks, creates a hostile environment for the group as whole resulting in the self-selected silence of many. To allow the behavior repeatedly without comment, implies that it's acceptable. I don't believe this is fair.

Quote

People should not let bullies go ON and ON and ON and ON( 2 years)

Ami herself is guilty of bullying; of all the things she is accusing unnamed others of.

Quote

PR -- Most of the times that you have posted to me on the board I feel nauseated when I read your posts

While I still stand by my statement that Lise is allowed to feel her feelings and to express them, I find I'm not as thick-skinned about this as I thought I was. Time and again, Lise has accused me of "ulterior motives" in my simple, plain and clear comments to her... over & over projecting some image of someone who has hurt her, onto me and onto others.

Not doing anything about this and not saying anything about it is in essence, validating the behavior. I don't believe that validating this behavior is fair to the community as a whole. I feel it's at the core of all of the conflicts and these conflicts will continue until sanctions against the behavior are enforced.

I am well able to protect myself these days, so that's not the issue for me. It's not personal anymore.
What is personal, is when the rules don't apply equally to everyone.

So I felt I needed to say this for the benefit of those who are not able to say it or choose not to.

On EDIT: I apologize to everyone for presumptively nominating myself "spokesperson". It was cowardly also. You all can speak for yourselves. It was only after I'd posted that I realized how important it was for me to say this for MYSELF. I can no longer hide behind the self-created powerlessness of silence - and I grabbed at imagining that I'm not the only person who feels this way.

My humblest apologies to EVERYONE.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 18, 2008, 07:38:33 AM

Your problem is not me,Amber , a voice in the computer.If you look inside ,Amber, you would do MUCHO better. Who do I remind you of ,in your life, Amber. Start there, no? Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 18, 2008, 08:15:22 AM

Thank you, Amber

I agreed with resounding accord, of your overall and general expression of clarity, in this place. I am grateful for the validation of my heart's cry - my voice.

Love, Leah

And my heart affirms and agrees with a clear voice ... What is personal, is when the rules don't apply equally to everyone

Edit: Oh, Amber, I have been speaking about it for so long now, and I am truly grateful for your validating clear voice of clarity.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 18, 2008, 08:17:07 AM

Finally, in this community - here on this board ............. the following may be helpful:

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5697.msg90919#msg90919 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5697.msg90919#msg90919)

Quote from: Richard Grossman on September 20, 2007, 04:27:42 PM

Thanks for telling me. Harassment is not permitted on the board. Let me know if it happens again, and you would like me to do something about it.

Best,

Richard

The above is what I would expect as it is clearly in line with the Board Membership agreement, which each person joining the board is required to tick in acceptance and agreement, and of which, I myself agreed to, in good faith:

Quote

You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,

obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy

Not my truth - but The truth

of the difference between a conflict - and blatant abusive behavior.

Respectfully,

Love, Leah

All of this is CURRENT - I have just read again, and all of the agreement is exactly the same as of todays date at this moment in time.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: CB123 on June 18, 2008, 08:35:24 AM

Amber,

You're right.

And I think you may be touching on the foundation of what it means to have a healthy community.

Thank you for saying it.

CB

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 18, 2008, 08:38:15 AM

Quote from: Ami on June 18, 2008, 07:38:33 AM

Your problem is not me,Amber , a voice in the computer.If you look inside ,Amber, you would do MUCHO better. Who do I remind you of ,in your life, Amber. Start there, no? Ami

Ami, it doesn't matter who you remind of me of. I have dealt with that and I can't change what happened in the past.
I can however, do something about the present - which is say exactly what I feel, see and observe.

I am making an observation about the here & now, on the board.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 18, 2008, 08:42:08 AM

Amber
I have made it clear ,I do not desire your help or your counsel. Why don't you save your counsel for a person who requests it Amber. I have not requested it, and have no plans,in the immediate future ,to do so. If I change my mind, you will be the first to know. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 18, 2008, 08:48:20 AM

Ami - I'm not offering you any assistance and I'll remind you that Hops wants this thread to be limited to talk of a healthy community.

Case in point: my post was NOT "all about you" or Lise - it was about rules and how they are enforced. You just happen to be someone who doesn't abide by the rules - even when reminded on specific threads, so you wound up being an example. This isn't a personal issue between the two of us.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2008, 08:52:43 AM

Ami and Amber,
Would one of you be willing to start a fresh thread to discuss?

For example, this new thread could be something like: CONFLICT CORNER: Ami and Amber. That could alert the board that this is a temporary time out from group discussion, as two people are going to work toward resolving something, if they can. (And if they can't they could try until the discussion is ended by either or both.) And maybe only the principals (plus Doc G if he feels it appropriate) should participate, until they are ready for more people, and one of them could say so?

Maybe that would reduce "rallying" and mindless "I'm on HER side, no I'm on HER side" kinds of chiming in?

I have no idea whether this is a good idea toward Healthy Community. But it strikes me as a space between the free for all, where dialogue can get drowned by too many voices from the peanut gallery, and conflict by PM, which feels unsafe.

What do you think Ami? What do you think Amber?

love
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 18, 2008, 08:53:56 AM

Amber, I am sure there ARE people out there who DO want your assistance. Don't shortchange THEM with people who don't. That is all my point was, Amber.
I DON'T want to take this to another thread, Amber.

I am done, Hops ,and I am going out, now. Sorry

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 18, 2008, 09:03:11 AM

Hops, I think that's an excellent idea because it provides a clear indication to others that two people are trying to work something out.

Just for the record: I don't feel I have anything to work out or through with Ami, but if she chooses to create this type of thread, I will consider responding.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 18, 2008, 09:35:22 AM

Dear Hops,

This is just my own personal feeling about it, but I've always held a greater respect for those who indicate from the get-go that they're not looking for
others to rally around them in a conflict, but simply trying to express what they recognize to be their own voice.

When that is not clearly stated by a participant in a conflict, I get the sense that the whole mess is not about finding and expressing voice so much as rallying a group of anti's against whatever person is the current object of distaste and dislike.
Maybe it's just me, but I have felt like an object in such instances.

And another personal note which comes out of recent developments here.
I think it'd be a great idea for each of us to give serious consideration to how we view this group's moderator, Dr. Grossman. (absolutely no disrespect intended here, Dr. G)
If he's perceived as Big Daddy (and I don't believe he is) and the rest of us are perceived as all the little siblings in the unhappy family (and I don't believe we are), then I think that we have a recipe for a big stew of trouble.
This isn't group therapy, is it? I've never been, so I dunno,
but taking a realistic view of this message board along with its limitations and capabilities would sure seem like a good place to begin improving the community's health. (And I think we've done that through the course of this latest conflict, at least some of us.)

You know, anytime you visit a physician or hospital, there are so many forms to sign, releasing everyone and his brother from responsibility... and thereby acknowledging individual responsibility for choices made...
I mean, doesn't it just stand to reason? To view this place otherwise indicates a certain level of magical thinking which is very dangerous, imo.
In fact, it's just that sort of magical thinking which got me hooked up to NPD in the first place.

Anyway, those are just a couple of my current, incomplete thoughts.
Mostly, I think they center around personal responsibility and being willing to reach for mature, adult standards, even when we're feeling inept at times.
Tossing out the standard completely and just letting it all hang out is to misuse and abuse this community and its members, imo.

Thanks again for this thread, Hops.

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 18, 2008, 09:36:55 AM

I really do think that a whole lot depends on an individual's choice of words (and behavior) toward another, in any situation.

10. Passive-aggressive: (Anger Expressed Inappropriately)

* Put-downs
* Sarcasm
* Insults
* Rudeness
* Sabotage
* Intimidation
* Belittling Remarks

Personally, I prefer to Stop and Listen to the quality and content of the Voice being expressed.

Leah x

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 18, 2008, 11:29:53 AM

To clear up any potential misunderstandings, let me be really clear about my post regarding enforcement of rules....

I'm not criticizing Dr G or his enforcement of the rules. I am saying that the way they are enforced for certain individuals, is to my understanding and opinion, not fair to the community at large. Well, he's entitled to his reasons for how he enforces rules and I don't need an explanation. It's not my board; I don't get to make the rules here - any more than I do for life... and life, often, doesn't seem fair. I'm not asking for more than being able to speak my mind about this, in the thread Hops created about Healthy Community.

I'm not asking for a change in the enforcement of the rules; just making my point about what seems to the problem here. Seems, to me.

The situation has troubled me for some time and I couldn't pinpoint what it was that bothered me until now.
It's been immensely helpful to my final realization of what is troubling me, to have this thread - and this board.

That's all there is to it, folks. Nothing more; nothing less.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Gabben on June 18, 2008, 11:42:21 AM

Quote from: PhoenixRising on June 18, 2008, 07:34:39 AM

In a healthy community, the rules as stated apply to all. There are no special dispensations, no free passes, for behavior that violates the rules. No matter who the people are or what their situation is.

To allow behavior in SOME that violates the rules of the board against hateful, abusive, and accusatory remarks, creates a hostile environment for the group as whole resulting in the self-selected silence of many. To allow the behavior repeatedly without comment, implies that it's acceptable. I don't believe this is fair.

Quote
People should not let bullies go ON and ON and ON and ON( 2 years)

Ami herself is guilty of bullying; of all the things she is accusing unnamed others of.

Dear Amber,

It was good to see that you spoke up and spoke your mind. I disagree with what you say here, but I respect that this is how you feel and how you see things right now.

The fact of the matter is that I expressed my voice, my truth. It seemed to you that I was being rude or abrasive rather than when I read your posts to me, (most of the time) I really do feel sick to my stomach...that is not a lie for me or an attempt to manipulate, nor is it coming from a hateful place. Perhaps when someone tells me that they feel uncomfortable with me I look at my behavior and my motives. I find that there is freedom from ego when I do.

However, I later realized that it is abrasive of me to put it the way I did. I could have expressed my truth in a more gentle mannor such as saying:

"Dear Amber - After reading your post I felt really uncomfortable and I disagree." But, for me that still would not have covered my truth.

Lise has accused me of "ulterior motives" in my simple, plain and clear comments to her... over & over projecting some image of someone who has hurt her, onto me and onto others.

Amber...once again, you have put words in my mouth...NO WHERE in my threads to you have I used the words "ulterior motives."

So many times here I have asked you to not put words in my mouth...that is my issue with you. It is that you take my words and my motives and twist them...Yes, I feel strongly that there is projection going on here with you. Does that mean that you are a bad person or that you are sick, NO it is just that there may be some blind spots for you, we all have blind spots.

For me personally there is a yucky feeling when I read your posts to me. That is a fact -- the truth can be hard for us to hear.

Thanks for letting me express this.

I'm done with this issue, but if you have more to say, then please feel free -- I will hear you.

Hops -- thanks for allowing this thread to move into this conversation. As you can see it can be hard for us to control threads, but I do respect your wishes. If you want me to move this post to a new thread please just tell me, I will. However, first, I'd like to see if Amber or Ami have more to say.

BTW: I do not think that Ami is a bully....sometimes we are just angry, defensive, offensive and trying to grow as well as standing up for ourselves for the first time. It is OK to make mistakes, correct? We are allowed more than one chance in this world to grow and improve ourselves, correct?

Amber, you neglected to answer my questions to you....any particular reason why?

Lise

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2008, 11:59:37 AM

Thanks, Carolyn. Good reminder -- it's not 3-D group therapy, it's not a slumber party, and it's not a rumble! (Hopefully... :)) There are no tissues, no leather couches, and though he's present in case of emergency, I figure (that's my assumption) that Doc G's normal hands-offishness is because he'd like us to learn from stumbling through things together. Maybe I'm talking myself back into sticking around.

I hope this thread has been constructive overall. I hope it continues or pops up again whenever anyone wants to discuss: rallying, quantity vs. quality of posts, or dominance of the board by FFs (including moi).

I'd like to thank you in particular Carolyn for your observations about RALLYING. For me, it's one of the most destructive habits on the board...when people name-drop, or include others in their strategies, it feels very school-yardy, to me. (The schoolyard was NOT a nice place, in my case...). So-and-so likes ME, or So-and-so IS LIKE ME, etc. You Go Away, I only want to play with So-and-So today! OW.

I think it's healthier when we speak for ourselves, and don't subtly or otherwise use others as pieces. When we need to address or reference someone else because it furthers things or is a natural part of the flow, that makes sense. But sometimes I think people are manipulated with flattery, effusive praise (gushing), inclusion and exclusion. Some of that is discussed here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance (http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance)

Consider me a gusher. And I was trained to manipulate. And sometimes I exclude and include. Hello, Kettle. But I'd like to be more aware, so I don't "rally". Maybe the board in general can benefit from thinking about rallying too.

love,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2008, 12:03:28 PM

Hi, Lise,
Thank you for asking.

Yes, I would like you to move it to a new thread if you don't mind. (The Conflict Corner or "CC" idea wasn't meant as a pejorative, it's just a good way for others to see that people are dealing with something between them openly...)

But you could call it anything.

Thanks,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 18, 2008, 12:04:53 PM

I thought the concept of passing the talking stick around... was a very fair attempt at turning our feelings over in the light.....

examining them....

without anyone rushing to assign motive.

This was a very helpful vehicle, IMO.... and I hope you do return to the board.

(((Hops)))

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 18, 2008, 01:25:21 PM

Hops,

RALLYING. For me, it's one of the most destructive habits on the board...when people name-drop, or include others in their strategies, it feels very school-yardy, to me. (The schoolyard was NOT a nice place, in my case...). So-and-so likes ME, or So-and-so IS LIKE ME, etc. You Go Away, I only want to play with So-and-So today! OW.

I think it's healthier when we speak for ourselves, and don't subtly or otherwise use others as pieces. When we need to address or reference someone else because it furthers things or is a natural part of the flow, that makes sense. But sometimes I think people are manipulated with flattery, effusive praise (gushing), inclusion and exclusion.

Some of that is discussed here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance (http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance)

Respectfully, my heartfelt gratitude - for validation, with accord.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 18, 2008, 07:17:46 PM

Quote from: Hopalong on June 18, 2008, 11:59:37 AM

Thanks, Carolyn. Good reminder -- it's not 3-D group therapy, it's not a slumber party, and it's not a rumble! (Hopefully... :)) There are no tissues, no leather couches, and though he's present in case of emergency, I figure (that's my assumption) that Doc G's normal hands-offishness is because he'd like us to learn from stumbling through things together. Maybe I'm talking myself back into sticking around.

I hope this thread has been constructive overall. I hope it continues or pops up again whenever anyone wants to discuss: rallying, quantity vs. quality of posts, or dominance of the board by FFs (including moi).

I'd like to thank you in particular Carolyn for your observations about RALLYING. For me, it's one of the most destructive habits on the board...when people name-drop, or include others in their strategies, it feels very school-yardy, to me. (The schoolyard was NOT a nice place, in my case...). So-and-so likes ME, or So-and-so IS LIKE ME, etc. You Go Away, I only want to play with So-and-So today! OW.

I think it's healthier when we speak for ourselves, and don't subtly or otherwise use others as pieces. When we need to address or reference someone else because it furthers things or is a natural part of the flow, that makes sense. But sometimes I think people are manipulated with flattery, effusive praise (gushing), inclusion and exclusion. Some of that is discussed here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance (http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance)

Consider me a gusher. And I was trained to manipulate. And sometimes I exclude and include. Hello, Kettle. But I'd like to be more aware, so I don't "rally". Maybe the board in general can benefit from thinking about rallying too.

love,
Hops

Dear Hops,

I just now found this back on page 2.

Thanks for speaking so clearly and reasonably and gently here and throughout this thread. I understand... and agree... completely; and thank you for that link... I found it very enlightening.

This afternoon, I've been thinking about this rule from the Changes thread, as copied here:

2) From this point on, I am asking people not to post threads or individual posts that accuse “someone on the board” without naming names. They are too confusing and distracting. If such posts are posted, I will ask the poster to reveal the name of the person they are accusing. If they don’t, I will either lock or delete the post at my discretion.

Personally, I've thought that this was a really great rule....
However - I sense that its intent was to curtail references to the behavior of other members here and not to create a massive increase in such postings.

(Note - that is only my sense of it)

And here is where I really struggle with framing my thoughts... so please excuse my clumsiness.
Just because we can name names, does that mean we should?
Is that really an improvement over the old hint and imply method :P or does it only fire up frenzy which often begins in pm's?

I'd like to hear your thoughts about it, Hops... not because I think that anything should be changed, but simply because it's buggin me.
When might it be appropriate to name names... and when not?
Is all of that open-ness really desireable?
etc.

Thanks!

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 18, 2008, 09:01:54 PM

Hmmm.
Good questions.

(Feel like pulling on my beard, but that's just a menopause whisker...)

The short answer, I feel, is that it's best to address people directly instead of write about them. If they feel scary, then I'd keep it simple, and use the old standby stuff of:

When you ________, I feel ___________.

(Then sign off and duck!) Well, I didn't mean that. I guess I mean that one can either avoid someone whom our intuition says is unsafe for us. Or, one can politely and briefly engage, and see what comes back. And if what comes back isn't clear or doesn't quickly move (with us) toward resolution of those uneasy feelings, then I'd take that as a signal that this is someone to observe but from a distance.

There are times when we're going to reference others, naturally. I think it's pretty obvious when it's boasting (look how many friends/allies I have! See, I'll name them!) or rallying, and when it's natural (I have learned ___ from X and ___ from Y, or whatever...some benign observation).

That help? I'm pooped, and avoiding things I have got to do...massive avoidance this month. Not good. :(

love
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 18, 2008, 09:05:04 PM

Yes, Hops... that's what I needed to hear. Got it. Gonna practice it.

Sorry to bombard you with avoidance material... as a fellow avoidant, I'll repent with you and pledge to take better care of my own business here, too.

Been feeling pretty needy here lately, but I'm thinking that's about to pass :)

Thanks for being here. I'd be pretty messy without you.

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 19, 2008, 07:09:37 AM

Hi folks,

Whether here on "board" or in life generally - it's all about choice.

I really do think that a whole lot depends on an individual's choice of words (and behavior) toward another, in any situation.

10. Passive-aggressive: (Anger Expressed Inappropriately)

* Put-downs
* Sarcasm
* Insults
* Rudeness
* Sabotage
* Intimidation
* Belittling Remarks

Personally, I much prefer to Stop and Listen to the quality and content of the Voice being expressed.

However, I know full well that no one person can bring about a change in another.

For the answer lies within each individual person.

Mindful that each individual person alone is solely responsible and accountable, for their own personal thoughts, words and actions.

Inevitably, one person's choice may well, and most likely, will effect other(s) in any given arena in life.

I am aware of repeating myself, for I have shared this on an ongoing basis for several months.

I make no apology as I believe personal stewardship is important in life - for everyone, myself included.

I think that the time to speak out is when the all too obvious "Snowball" is rolling out -- instead of waiting until the "Avalanche" has rested and then step in to survey the damage done.

Any form of 'wisdom' works best when it is consistent.

There is a well known idiom; "you can't close the stable door after the horse has bolted" - it's so true.

These are just my honest thoughts, and life observance, experience.

Love to ALL

Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: wiltay on June 19, 2008, 12:15:25 PM

I'm so glad you got that on the record, Amber. BTW, Ami can 'choose' to create just about any 'type' of thread she decides and you can 'choose' to take it or leave it. Have you ever considered NOT responding?

Quote from: PhoenixRising on June 18, 2008, 09:03:11 AM

Hops, I think that's an excellent idea because it provides a clear indication to others that two people are trying to work something out.

Just for the record: I don't feel I have anything to work out or through with Ami, but if she chooses to create this type of thread, I will consider responding.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Hopalong on June 19, 2008, 01:27:12 PM

Hi Bill,

If you'd like to discuss a conflict with Amber, would you invite her to a separate thread?

thanks,
Hops

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 20, 2008, 05:27:13 AM

Note to all board members: the first paragraph has been transferred to "A Thread for Leah"

Quote

I am well able to protect myself these days, so that's not the issue for me. It's not personal anymore.

What is personal, is when the rules don't apply equally to everyone.

So I felt I needed to say this for the benefit of those who are not able to say it or choose not to.

I do so resonate with the above, and thank you Amber, for I was not able to say it, therefore, I am grateful that you did.

It is personal to me that all does not apply equally to everyone.

Likewise, I am able to protect myself, mercifully.

Women Victimizing Women - anywhere in life - is truly painful to experience - in either role - target or observer. I can only consider that is why Oops created the thread "STOP IT ALREADY"

Hand on heart, I sincerely hope it does, stop. For it is truly such a waste of precious life energy and resources, added to which, most unhealthy for everyone's emotional well being.

Love to ALL

Leah (of independent thought and voice)

PS. I wholeheartedly reasonate with the following statement on a previous page ...

I think it's healthier when we speak for ourselves, and don't subtly or otherwise use others as pieces. When we need to address or reference someone else because it furthers things or is a natural part of the flow, that makes sense.

But sometimes I think people are manipulated with flattery, effusive praise (gushing), inclusion and exclusion.

Some of that is discussed here: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance (http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?FalseRepentance)

Added to which, I am grateful for the website link, the content of which was most alarming, and yet, affirming to my own personal experiential discernment.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 20, 2008, 09:53:41 AM

Awesome link, Leah. Good info! Blessings, Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Sela on June 20, 2008, 12:00:15 PM

Hi all,

One thing I was thinking about:

Quote

Let me know if it happens again, and you would like me to do something about it.

Best,

Richard

In regards to enforcement of rules/stepping in when there are conflicts/unacceptable behaviour etc., I think this is key. Maybe it feels awful to try to deal with some of this stuff on one's own but until one actually asks for assistance from Dr. G, it may not happen. There are, as far as I can see, a frequent number of tussels, understanbly here (due to the fact that many are hurting and purging and learning and sharing and trying to make sense of the emotional chaos of so many experiences) and it would be a full time job to monitor or interfere in each episode, never mind the fact that any value from working things out on one's own would be lost. However, from what I recall (which maybe I've missed something.....sure wouldn't be the first time), Dr. G will respond when he is asked for help.

Also, aren't rules made to be broken?

There are grey areas eh? Sometimes, the rules are ignored and it has seemed reasonable to me. I really don't want to dig up threads but how about a hypothetical example?

A poster expresses severe feelings of shame and remorse over and over. After awhile, that person realizes the shame is not theirs and that they have nothing to feel remorse about (the shame was dumped on them by their FOO, whatever). That person, in their realization, becomes suddenly very angry and posts a long rant containing some swearing and lashing out. Would it be really necessary to step in and interupt this period of transition over a couple of swear words and a mindless rant? I know I could certainly do with being more patient, under such circumstances. I need to learn not to react so much and take things so personally and look closer at what is really going on, ask more questions rather than make assumptions (and I wonder if I'll ever learn??? It's sure taking me a long time :oops: :oops:).

This might not be the best example but it does show a bit of a grey area, yes?

One word for rallying:

I doubt anyone enjoys the feeling of a number of posters lining up to support one member who is conflicting with another. If that other member then calls for support from the rest of the members, is that then rallying as well? (I know.....it might seem more like a call for war eh? Maybe it's just a feeling of desperation?)

Or if one feels "bullied" and asks for the opinion or support of other posters, is that rallying? Or trying to find clarity? Or the expression of the feeling of helplessness?

I did this myself :oops: :oops: :oops: (asked for support from other board memebers when I felt bullied and wanted support) and although I'm not proud of my part in that conflict, I did learn that it's ok to neeeeed and it's a good thing to assssk for help and when I did that.......what a feeling of relief when support was offered and my feelings were validated.

I dunno. To me, there are many grey areas, nothing is really written in stone and I do understand how it seems unfair that every situation is not handled exactly according to the rules or in an identical way but on the other hand, how can that be done perfectly? Only by a perfect moderator with perfect group members on a perfect forum in a perfect cyber world, on a perfect day maybe? Does such a person, place and time exist in this life?

Would not a healthy community allow for grey areas/imperfection and the occasional bending of rules?
Are any of us in a position to be the best judge?

Stepping down from podium and passing stick.

:D Sela

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 20, 2008, 12:27:57 PM

Question to all board members:

How would "you" feel (as in anyone here present) if "you" logged onto the board and read this posted on the board about "you" ??

"Leah acts all innocent while feigning victimhood, yet there is not a shred of anger from her, nor does her suffering seem real, except for really shallow...just my observation, well, then --- that is real and really bothers me."

Leah x

Edited due to "A Thread for Leah" ('bold' removed and 'red' color removed)

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Sela on June 20, 2008, 12:56:01 PM

Hi Leah,

I bet I would feel shocked and confused. I would probably feel totally invalidated. I would likely feel insulted and belittled. Also, I bet I'd feel quite angry. I could just as easily feel hurt.

My opinion about this comment is that it is not just an observation (upon edit: as in, "oh, it's just an observation!"), but also shocking, confusing, invalidating, insulting, belittling, taunting and hurtful.

After all that, if I was really lucky, I might start to wonder what brought this comment on? I might even wonder if there was some truth in the comment? I might wonder about the person making this comment? Why did they make it? What is their motive?

My response would more than likely depend on the level of trust I have of the person making such a statement or could well be a reaction based on the kind of day I'm having. :roll:

Sela

PS: Upon reading your edit....my edit:

Are you really rendered voiceless, Leah? Aren't you still able to post? Does it feel better to have no contact?

one more edit: If I managed to stop taking the comment so personally, I might even consider/try to understand what the comment says about the commenter? :shock:

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: seasons on June 20, 2008, 01:40:14 PM

Leah,

I can't imagine the pain I would feel. Ouch!

(((peace, love and comfort to you always))) seasons

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 20, 2008, 02:42:36 PM

I am sorry, Leah, so very, very sorry . IMO, you are one of the sweetest ,kindest, most "real" people on the board(no troll -lol).
I am simply sorry you are hurting. It has NO relevance to who you are, IMO.
It is the person's problem, NOT yours, Leah. Love Ami

(((((((((Leah))))))))))

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 20, 2008, 07:04:20 PM

Edit: Please refer to "A Thread for Leah"

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 20, 2008, 09:04:06 PM

Edit: Please refer to "A Thread for Leah"

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 20, 2008, 10:28:37 PM

Edit: Please refer to "A Thread for Leah"

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 20, 2008, 11:30:39 PM

It sounds like you are trying to put it all behind you, Leah. That is wonderful.
I have healed a great deal through my pain, as I think you will through yours.I am sorry for it, dear friend, but God will use it to strengthen you, as He did for me. He is good,loves us, brings us wonderful things and people. All is OK! Love Ami

((((((((Leah)))))))))))))

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 20, 2008, 11:50:31 PM

(((((((((( Ami )))))))))))

Thank you, and I now recall that it was only last week that my heart cried out in prayer "enough is enough"

It is as though a huge burden has lifted off my shoulders. I believe that my voice is clear and crisp with the truth expressed of my painful experience.

And I am grateful to be made free of it all.

Now, I can "let go"

I choose to close the door behind me and not look back, in particular, regarding this situation, which is finished as far as I am concerned.

Yes, indeed, Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God." -- this verse has sustained me throughout much in my life.

"Shalom" God loves you so much, Ami

Guard your heart, and keep your eyes fixed upon Him.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 20, 2008, 11:54:23 PM

Thank you, Leah
Two of my board friends commented on your increased strength, so it IS noticable to others. I am really proud of you, Leah and proud to call you my friend. Shalom, Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 21, 2008, 12:20:25 AM

Quote from: Ami on June 20, 2008, 11:54:23 PM

Thank you, Leah

Two of my board friends commented on your increased strength, so it IS noticable to others. I am really proud of you, Leah and proud to call you my friend. Shalom, Ami

:cry: now I am filled to gentle tears, this time though, Ami, with an inner joy, sincerely, I am deeply moved that you have shared with me, and gracefully, I thank you.

I do feel that I am getting stronger in myself. Please forward to your board friends my gratitude for their encouragement, just as I thank you too for your encouragement.

You have grown, more than you realize, and you are certainly more than capable of standing on your own beautiful two feet and speaking your voice, as I have seen lately, so "well done you"

I really do think that validation is a most precious gift to be able to give someone.

I am glad to know you too, Ami, as a friend. And other friends here too. Life's garden filled with friendship ..... (read this poem and liked it very much).

"Shalom"

Love, Leah

Edit: I cannot find the poem, but I like this one also:

Count your garden by the flowers, never by the leaves that fall.
Count your days by the golden hours, don't remember clouds at all.
Count your life by smiles, not tears, and with joy on every birthday.
Count your age by friends, not years.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: nogadge on June 21, 2008, 01:05:50 PM

Perhaps my welcome to oops didn't show up.
Kudos hops, I really agree and weldome the content/context in the opening of this, your thread. Nogadge

OH NO< I JUST FOUND THAT MY 22" LCD SAMSUNG MONITOR HAS A DEAD PIXCEL!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 21, 2008, 01:11:45 PM

(((((((((((( Everyone )))))))))))))

~ Threads of A Friendship ~

Threads of A Friendship That Will Never Break:

Thank you for the laughter, for the good times we share.
Thanks for always listening, for trying to be fair.
Thank you for the comfort, when things are going bad.
Thank you for the shoulder to cry on when I'm sad.
This gift is a reminder that all my lifetime through,
I will be thanking heaven for a special friend like you.

I have only just discovered this today, and thought it most apt.

And heartfelt too.

Love to ALL

Leah x

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: gjazz on June 21, 2008, 07:50:19 PM

I haven't read this entire thread, just the first posts and a few others. But I'll gladly chime in, and say why I was one of those who came through briefly and left fairly quickly: I came in during one of the former explosions (if you will), and had to ask myself: Do you really have this kind of time? To me, at that time, the bullying, deliberately (and I do believe many were deliberately) counterproductive posts simply overwhelmed the positive, thoughtful, meaningful ones. Conflict occurs at many levels, every day. I deal with it constantly. Addressing it productively gives a real feeling of accomplishment. But name calling isn't adult-level conflict, it's schoolyard bullying. One cannot use reason with a zealot, not matter what their cause, and especially if their cause is harming someone they believe they hate, or defending themselves against a slight, insult, etc., real or simply perceived. I do not believe the people here are so wounded they cannot stand to hear honest constructive criticism. I think sometimes it's just easier, especially in a society where such behavior is often valued, to lash out rather than step back.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: lighter on June 21, 2008, 09:13:06 PM

Quote from: gjazz on June 21, 2008, 07:50:19 PM

I haven't read this entire thread, just the first posts and a few others. But I'll gladly chime in, and say why I was one of those who came through briefly and left fairly quickly: I came in during one of the former explosions (if you will), and had to ask myself: Do you really have this kind of time? To me, at that time, the bullying, deliberately (and I do believe many were deliberately) counterproductive posts simply overwhelmed the positive, thoughtful, meaningful ones. Conflict occurs at many levels, every day. I deal with it constantly. Addressing it productively gives a real feeling of accomplishment. But name calling isn't adult-level conflict, it's schoolyard bullying. One cannot use reason with a zealot, not matter what their cause, and especially if their cause is harming someone they believe they hate, or defending themselves against a slight, insult, etc., real or simply perceived. I do not believe the people here are so wounded they cannot stand to hear honest constructive criticism. I think sometimes it's just easier, especially in a society where such behavior is often valued, to lash out rather than step back.

I'm sorry, gjazz:

To whom are you referring to as bullies and to who are you referring to as a zealot?

Respectfully asking for clarifification.

Lighter

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: gjazz on June 21, 2008, 10:51:34 PM

I refer to patterns of behavior, not individuals. Bullying, which I think we all understand. Zealotry, as in fanatical partisanship. My post is intended to explain my decision to use caution when participating on this board.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: ann3 on June 21, 2008, 11:31:14 PM

Hi gjazz,

So happy to see your post & glad to hear from you. How are you doing?

I agree with you 10000%. I can't stand the bullying or childish behavior either.

Paraphrasing Winston Churchill, lately (IMO) an iron curtain of censorship has descended on the board and so one must choose one's words with due deliberation, which, to me, is contrary to finding one's voice. So, I totally agree with you that one must use caution when participating on this board.

Despite it all, hope you'll post again. There's a lot of good stuff here,too.

love,
ann

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 21, 2008, 11:33:21 PM

There IS a thread where people talked about THE particular bullying behavior, which can be brought up for people to see, if need be, Gjazz. Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: gjazz on June 21, 2008, 11:41:36 PM

At the time I was on the board more regularly--six weeks, a month ago, maybe more?--I responded to specific messages I thought were hurtful, directly. So there's not need to bring all that up again. To my mind, maybe the thing is to concentrate our individual attention to issues/situations we can be helpful to someone, and step back where we can't.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 21, 2008, 11:43:37 PM

Yes, you have a point Gjazz. There is a time to fight and a time to refrain from fighting(Ecclesiastes) Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: gjazz on June 22, 2008, 03:25:32 PM

Ann3:

I'm doing well, thanks. I was sorry to hear about the friction on the board (via a PM) and decided to post my reasons for pulling back some weeks ago. Hope you are doing well, too, and that this thread can help move things in a positive direction.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 22, 2008, 04:08:06 PM

Edit: deleted as it may be misunderstood.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 22, 2008, 05:00:43 PM

This may be on interest, or not, however, I have just read this brief guideline to finding a healthy message board/forum community:

Before joining a group, consider spending a few hours looking back through the group's archives.

That should give you a good feel for the way members are treated. Then ask yourself:

Is the group generally happy and supportive?

Does the group give off a good vibe?

Are newcomers welcomed warmly, or snapped at for asking boring 'newbie' questions?

Is there an in-group cliche?

Do you see members sitting outside an in-group?

Is there a sense of freedom in speech?

Does the site appear to be biased?

Is anyone criticising the quality or flow of information provided by the group?

Is anyone openly challenging the integrity of the group itself?

Is there a high turnover of members?

If yes, can you see any obvious and worrying reason for this?

Is there a sense of harmony or disharmony among members?

Do most of the members seem the kind of people you'd be happy chatting with?

Well, having deleted it (as above #160) here I am reposting, as a braveheart! And every good intention.

Nothing of a personal note to add to the information provided for perusal.

Love, Leah

Title: Meta-Discussion
Post by: Leah on June 22, 2008, 06:08:06 PM

Finally, I have this stored in my favorites, from February'08 -- may or may not be heloful, again, posted with genuine good intention for the purpose of a Healthy Community. Leah x

What is meta-discussion?

You eagerly start reading a discussion supposedly about a subject of great interest to you, only to find that instead of being about the named subject, the discussion is full of posts arguing about how to discuss, what posts should be allowed on the forum, the attributes of a particular poster, complaints about others' posts and complaints about the discussion. Your heart sinks. You search in vain for any on-topic posts, then give up and never bother returning to that forum or discussion again.

That is meta-discussion, and it ruins many a good discussion. For that reason, more and more discussion forum owners are asking posters to avoid meta-discussion.

Let me explain why:

Meta-discussion is second-order discussion: discussion about the discussion – for instance, about its style, its participants, the forum in which it takes place, and so on – instead of about on-topic matters.

by Sarah Fitz-Claridge

Imagine a discussion forum whose subject is the book Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. Here are the possible kinds of discussion: http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18 (http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18)

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: ann3 on June 22, 2008, 06:34:56 PM

Good to hear from you, gjazz. Hope you'll return to posting.

(((((((((Leah)))))))))))

love,
ann

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Ami on June 22, 2008, 06:37:39 PM

Dear Ann
I wish you would return to posting, too. I was talking to SS,today and she wants to get back .We were having real healing. We can get back. Why not? Ami

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: ann3 on June 22, 2008, 06:55:27 PM

Ami Dear,

I'm back, baby!!!!! Never left.

Love to you & SS.

love,
ann

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 22, 2008, 07:05:02 PM

Quote from: ann3 on June 22, 2008, 06:34:56 PM

(((((((((Leah)))))))))))

love,
ann

(((((((((( Ann ))))))))))))

"Welcome ~~Back~~ Here"

Love,

Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: ann3 on June 22, 2008, 07:15:11 PM

Thank you, Leah, sweetheart

(((((((((((((((((((Leah))))))))))))))))))))))

Title: Re: Meta-Discussion
Post by: Leah on June 23, 2008, 07:26:17 AM

Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 22, 2008, 06:08:06 PM

Finally, I have this stored in my favorites, from February'08 -- may or may not be heloful, again, posted with genuine good intention for the purpose of a Healthy Community. Leah x

What is meta-discussion?

You eagerly start reading a discussion supposedly about a subject of great interest to you, only to find that instead of being about the named subject, the discussion is full of posts arguing about how to discuss, what posts should be allowed on the forum, the attributes of a particular poster, complaints about others' posts and complaints about the discussion. Your heart sinks. You search in vain for any on-topic posts, then give up and never bother returning to that forum or discussion again.

That is meta-discussion, and it ruins many a good discussion. For that reason, more and more discussion forum owners are asking posters to avoid meta-discussion.

Let me explain why:

Meta-discussion is second-order discussion: discussion about the discussion – for instance, about its style, its participants, the forum in which it takes place, and so on – instead of about on-topic matters.

by Sarah Fitz-Claridge

Imagine a discussion forum whose subject is the book Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. Here are the possible kinds of discussion: http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18 (http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18)

With thoughts and pondering on the subject of "Healthy Community" having posted the above yesterday. I considered the adverse effect of Meta-Discussion with regard to On-Line Cyber Communication.

Thinking our loud that VESMB is a Message Board

On the world wide web we have Message Boards and Discussion Forums, therefore:

Maybe, that has a significant bearing, or not. I am thinking that it could that have a significant bearing on the difference between someone wishing to merely "voice" and be heard and validated, and someone with a desire to engage in discussion on a topic subject? Result being, perhaps, subsequent misinterpretation, as in a lack of awareness by the reader of the thread or posting, as to the member's reason for writing his/her thread/post ?

Of course, a member may post at any given point in time on a thread (or create a thread) with a desire to "voice" and receive validation, and also, post again elsewhere, with a desire to engage in a discussion on a topic subject.

Just thinking out loud, that it may be prudent to open ones post with a short sentence of introduction expressing what one is hoping for ......... to aid communicative understanding.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Certain Hope on June 23, 2008, 07:53:27 AM

((((((((((Ann))))))))))) I'm very glad you've never left!

Love,
Carolyn

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: CB123 on June 23, 2008, 08:19:54 AM

Leah,

You make a good point, and I think that you are right.

The problem is, I dont think that the two goals are that clear cut. I think that many times we dont know what we want--we think we want a discussion, but it isnt until we get a negative response that we realize that what we really wanted was affirmation and validation. At any rate, asking for validation is a more vulnerable position and I dont know if we can always admit, even to ourselves, that the sole purpose of our post is to get affirmation or validation.

On the subject of metadiscussion, I think there's a similar dynamic. I don't think that there are really two types of discussions on the board--those that are about "real" topics and those that are metadiscussions. After all, when we are having real discussions what we are oftentimes talking about are metadiscussions that we have experienced in 3D! Those metadiscussions are significant (no matter where they occur) to our sense of value and our perception of the other person. I dont think we can have a meaningful relationship with anyone else without regularly occurring metadiscussion.

My experience is that they burn themselves out--both on the board and in 3D. After awhile, I'm sick of talking about it (and so is the other person) and we move on to something else. In 3D, the next step is often relative silence while we readjust. I think the same thing is happening right now on the board.

By the same token, if I have a significant relationship with someone (or am developing one), a metadiscussion is inevitable. Those people that I NEVER have such a conversation with, remain on the periphery of my life and, eventually, anything deeper than discussing surface topics just disappears. I have never had a close, longtime friend that I was able to share confidences with that didnt, eventually, entail a metadiscussion. That just seems to be part of the evolution of the relationship.

More significant, in my life, than the FACT of the discussion is how it's conducted and concluded. Something that is terribly ironic to me at this point in my life, is how many of the conflicts I have now in my romantic relationship that are about the same things that I had in my marriage. The DIFFERENCE is how we do it--and I include myself in that equation. I am learning to have the metadiscussions with my sweetheart in a more healthy way, and that has made a huge difference in the overall health of the relationship.

One thing I have learned to do is to not make the conflict itself have cosmic significance. (Someone during the recent conflict on the board said something about how the community here was interconnected to the entire world community and that damage done here had a ripple effect into that bigger community. That's just the kind of thing I would have thought in the past that would have fueled my emotional state.)

The very biggest thing I keep uppermost in my mind during these discussions is: what is my goal? Is it to WIN the discussion? Is it to prove myself right? Is it to elicit a particular response--an apology, for example?

When I ask myself what I want out of each discussion, I find (with my sweetheart) that what I want is a closer relationship with him. I have found that I don't even have to be understood completely (I have realized that that is not always a realizable goal). If my goal is to build the relationship, then the way I talk to him will either further that goal or undermine it. I used to think that a close relationship was built on sharing everything in my head and heart. It isnt. Everything isnt meant to be shared. And everything isnt meant to be shared at any moment of any conversation.

A close relationship is built on mutual respect. Having a voice is knowing when to use it. If my goal is to simply exercise my voice whenever and however I want to--I will have had a "voice" but I may very well not have a relationship. I don't think that the FACT of metadiscussions on the board is the problem, but rather the HOW. What is the goal--what do I want out of the discussion? If I just want to express my voice, then how I do it will be less important than the fact that I got to say whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. (I hear that goal being expressed on the board a lot)

If my goal is to build relationships where I am safe to express myself, then I can't say whatever I want, however I want to, whenever I want to.

Well, I'm leaving this post with no conclusion--but I have posted until I completely ran out of time. So...maybe anyone who reads this can draw their own??

Love
CB

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 23, 2008, 08:49:28 AM

Thank you, CB

And I will read through your posting and respond later, time restraint as present.

I did think some more on the subject of META-DISCUSSIONS within the confines of a message board, and I really do consider the points Sarah Fitz-Claridge highlights are poignant:

in so much as:

.... a person is eagerly trying to engage in a discussion or communication of some kind, on an on-line message board, regarding a topic subject, and meanwhile, all around are posts arguing about how to discuss, what posts should be allowed on the forum, the attributes of a particular poster, complaints about others' posts and complaints about the discussion. Ones heart does sink.

I wholeheartedly agree with the valid point:

That meta-discussions of this very nature do in fact ruin many a good discussion or communication engagement of any positive genuine purpose.

With the result being that of the stirring up of a whirlwind storm of conflict.

Just my own experiential thoughts appertaining to a message board, in particular, this one.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: sKePTiKal on June 23, 2008, 10:31:26 AM

Quote

At any rate, asking for validation is a more vulnerable position and I dont know if we can always admit, even to ourselves, that the sole purpose of our post is to get affirmation or validation.

CB's point gave me an idea. It's healing to admit to yourself that you want some validation... and after all, what is there to fear HERE about asking for it? We all understand that need, I think - even in the midst of our our own tangled webby healing processes.

I know, when someone has asked only for validation of their post - if I can, I will. If I can't - I need to restrain my "need" to offer advice or my own viewpoint.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 23, 2008, 10:35:15 AM

Quote from: PhoenixRising on June 23, 2008, 10:31:26 AM

I know, when someone has asked only for validation of their post - if I can, I will. If I can't - I need to restrain my "need" to offer advice or my own viewpoint.

Superb, Amiber

I resonate with full accord, and I do think -- that in effect, that is the difference, that could make all the difference.

Here, on an on-line message board.

Great to hear from you.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 24, 2008, 07:03:26 PM

Quote

A close relationship is built on mutual respect. Having a voice is knowing when to use it. If my goal is to simply exercise my voice whenever and however I want to--I will have had a "voice" but I may very well not have a relationship. I don't think that the FACT of metadiscussions on the board is the problem, but rather the HOW. What is the goal--what do I want out of the discussion? If I just want to express my voice, then how I do it will be less important than the fact that I got to say whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. (I hear that goal being expressed on the board a lot)

Hi CB,

I hear you, and resonate with full accord regarding "mutual respect"

I feel, and believe, strongly, that there is no relationship of any nature, in any circumstance, without the basic ingredient of "mutual respect" and reciprocal considerate discussion - yes, metadiscussions that ebb and flow, and take a new direction, bringing out all kinds of wonderment and refreshment, or even "healthy debate."

However, the difference is in the "nit-picking" meta-discussions i.e. writing style, spelling, grammar, punctuation, and, for stirring of dissension and strife. I do think that may be the difference.

Acceptance and Tolerance - hand in hand with "Mutual Respect" usually works well, in my experience, and personal view.

Personally, I don't feel "mutual respect" when someone "voices" of me, at me, and over me, it is akin to drowning in the sea of life, and in all honesty, I feel humiliated and objectified.

I feel a personal preference for "Mutual Respect" with a "Voice" flowing from within oneself to another -- not rushing forth like an all powerful torrent.

These are my thoughts.

Hope all is well with you, and your family.

Love, Leah

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on June 25, 2008, 06:36:33 PM

(1) Barriers to Effective Communication

There are a wide number of sources of noise or interference that can enter into the communication process. This can occur and there is a need to understand the sources of error. In a work setting, it is even more common since interactions involve people who not only don't have years of experience with each other, but communication is complicated by the complex and often conflictual relationships that exist at work. In a work setting, the following suggests a number of sources of noise:

[I do feel that the same would apply within any on-line community setting, or indeed, any set of personal interactions]

* Language: The choice of words or language in which a sender encodes a message will influence the quality of communication. Because language is a symbolic representation of a phenomenon, room for interpreation and distortion of the meaning exists. Note that the same words will be interpreted different by each different person. Meaning has to be given to words and many factors affect how an individual will attribute meaning to particular words. It is important to note that no two people will attribute the exact same meaning to the same words.

* defensiveness, distorted perceptions, guilt, project, transference, distortions from the past

* misreading of body language, tone and other non-verbal forms of communication

* noisy transmission (unreliable messages, inconsistency)

* receiver distortion: selective hearing, ignoring non-verbal cues

* power struggles

* self-fulfilling assumptions

* language-different levels of meaning

* assumptions-eg. assuming others see situation same as you, has same feelings as you

* distrusted source, erroneous translation, value judgment, state of mind of two people

* Perceptual Biases: People attend to stimuli in the environment in very different ways. We each have shortcuts that we use to organize data. Invariably, these shortcuts introduce some biases into communication.

Some of these shortcuts include stereotyping, projection, and self-fulfilling prophecies.

Stereotyping is one of the most common. This is when we assume that the other person has certain characteristics based on the group to which they belong without validating that they in fact have these characteristics.

* Interpersonal Relationships: How we perceive communication is affected by the past experience with the individual. Percpetion is also affected by the organizational relationship two people have. For example, communication from a superior may be perceived differently than that from a subordinate or peer

* Cultural Differences: Effective communication requires deciphering the basic values, motives, aspirations, and assumptions that operate across geographical lines. Given some dramatic differences across cultures in approaches to such areas as time, space, and privacy, the opportunities for mis-communication while we are in cross-cultural situations are plentiful.

Title: Re: Healthy community
Post by: Leah on July 02, 2008, 12:19:13 PM

LABELS - Assumptions - Presumptions : do not serve any healthy purpose in a community, of any table setting.

likewise, "Attack Other Scripts" which are truly insidious.

For a healthy community, of any setting, I cannot consider the following to be a healthy choice within the setting of any community ...

Harsh Start Ups: Harsh start ups' put the other person in the defensive before the communication has a chance!

The Four Horsemen: Dr. Gottman claims that certain types of negativity are more lethal to your communication:

His four horsemen are:

1) Criticism: Complaints are normal but criticism deals more with the other person's character and personality.

2) Contempt: This is long simmering negative thoughts about the other person that turn into disrespect.

3) Defensiveness: This approach rarely ever works and usually turns the conversation into a blame game.

4) Stonewalling: When X wasn’t willing to work at communication with Y ... he simply crawled into his cave and the conversation stopped for the time being.

Flooding: This happens when you or other's - bombards the communication with negativity whether it is in the form of criticism, contempt, defensiveness - or any other negative approach.

Passive Agressive behavior (Anger Expressed Inappropriately)

* Put-downs
* Sarcasm
* Insults
* Rudeness
* Sabotage
* Intimidation
* Belittling Remarks

Covert Abuse

Verbal Abuse

Just my own thoughts, and personal experience thereof.

Love, Leah

Title: Mutual Respect
Post by: Leah on July 03, 2008, 07:04:07 AM

Having given much thought to the concept of the aforementioned "Mutual Respect" - I have just read, with general avid interest, the following article, and considered it worthy of sharing. Leah x

Mutual Respect

Relationships and Ideas

Our experience of living as individual human beings in a complex world is essentially an experience of relationships — with things, with other persons, with organisations, and with ideas.

All the troubles in the world arise from unsatisfactory relationships in which one person or group tries by one means or another to coerce another person or group into behaving in some involuntary manner. The popular word for this is "bullying".

Such relationships cause unhappiness for the individual person; they give rise to unrest among those immediately involved with that person; and they all too frequently lead to outright conflict as persons and organisations, not always immediately or necessarily affected, "take sides" in other people's quarrels.

When we trace the course of any quarrel to its roots, they are always to be found in a conflict of ideas. Human intelligence and capacity to reason about ideas can be either a blessing or a curse depending on how we use them.

Consciousness

The operation of human consciousness depends on contrasting the perceived qualities of one thing with those of another. We can discern variations in size, shape, brightness, colour, sound, smell, taste, warmth, texture, quantity, motion. If there were no such variations, we should not be objectively aware of anything at all, and objects devoid of such qualities would not exist for us. When we think about such things, our ideas are formed from a recollection of the qualities they present, or seem to present, when we observe them. I say "seem" because the senses by which we perceive qualities can sometimes deceive us.

Even so, we find it easier to form "true" or "objective" ideas about our relationships with "inanimate" objects which seem incapable of having intentions towards us than about animals which we can perceive as friendly or threatening — subjective attitudes which "colour" our ideas and influence the reconstruction of our observations. We tend to form ideas about things, and then perceive what we expect to perceive on the basis of our pre-conceived ideas.

When our minds are "made up", we become reluctant to change them, even in the face of evidence that suggests we may be wrong about something.

This tendency to subjective distortion of perception reaches its peak in our relationships with other human beings or groups ranging from neighbours to governments. Our ideas about other people are filtered through prejudices such as like and dislike, love and hate, hope and fear, admiration and contempt, friend and foe. As our own patterns of behaviour are subject to variation from one moment to the next, so we must assume that other people are subject to similar inconsistencies. Furthermore, our "raw data" about other persons often relies in part upon a more or less imperfect exchange of ideas with each other, either directly or through third parties. So we tend to form "beliefs" or "opinions" about each other based as much on our own prejudices as on observation or any "true" assessment of the character of the other person, and usually ignoring the fact that a person's character may change over time.

Introspection

Recognising the impossibility of ever "fixing" the character of any human individual, we must remain pessimistic in our hopes and expectations of a peaceful world unless we can discern, and mutually agree to apply, a few simple principles whereby to govern our conduct with respect to one another, and so co-exist peacefully despite our differences.

And because our quarrels are not so much about things as about our ideas and beliefs about things, we must start by looking within ourselves and attempt to identify the motives which cause us to quarrel.

We live in a world of relativity. Our consciousness depends on discerning differences. Hence we have an innate mental tendency towards duality and polarisation. And yet we cannot help feeling that despite the myriad contrasts which give rise to the infinite variety we enjoy in this wonderful world, there must be an underlying unity which holds the Universe together and somehow reconciles all apparent conflicts.

We will be studying ourselves and our relationships with the Universe in the hope of identifying an essential unity about which we can agree and which will make us disinclined to quarrel with each other.

Favoritism

Our tendency towards polarisation of ideas makes us liable to favour one way of looking at things rather than another, and thus lose all possibility of objectivity. I have observed this unfortunate trait even in persons with very high academic qualifications, and I have come to suspect that much of what passes for education is really indoctrination into whatever is currently accepted as orthodoxy.

If I am painting the floor of a room, I must plan to work in such a way as to finish at a door through which I can escape to the greater world outside: otherwise I shall paint myself into a corner. Our tendency to favour one line of thought or argument all too often blinds us to the validity of alternatives.

General Application

Rigid adherence to one idea while closing one's mind to its complementary alternative is a principal cause of human conflict. Individuals who favour one hypothesis tend to herd together in artificial opposition to proponents of its equally valid complement; irrational emotions are aroused; persons in either group whose commitment to the central dogma is less than total are liable to be accused of "disloyalty"; and so each such group becomes a potential army to engage in uncivil war.

Paradoxically, this unfortunate development is most likely to occur in "advanced" societies, in which larger numbers of individuals have the leisure to mull over ideas and to make converts. Thus rival, even mutually hostile, groups spring up over matters ranging in significance from sports supporters' clubs to political parties and religious sects.

Personal Integrity

Personal integrity requires that we look deeply into ourselves and try to be as objective about our own ideas, feelings, and emotions - as we expect scientists to be about the interpretation of their observations of the physical world.

Such introspection can be a painful process: but if regularly practised, it will promote the development of virtues such as modesty, tolerance, and strength of character, all of which are conducive to mutual respect and powerful antidotes to bullying.