Author Topic: Mindfulness and codependence thread  (Read 52069 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #840 on: June 17, 2022, 12:26:37 PM »
Whole lotta whole lot!
Feel badly that I can't respond to each part but glad you wrote it all down, Lighter.

YG - sounds like calm. Hope brief civility and general avoidance work. Good job.

Service = love. That's moving and wonderful to read. May the bird of paradise land in your shrubbery. Lucky neighbors that you see how you can give them beauty.

Roof - I release my "let others do things while you're injured" idea and can tell you can't wait to risk the steep roof. This is your joy in hard physical work AND risk taking. I breathe, look on in awe, fingers crossed. (That's a good lesson for me.)

Clothing purge - SUPER kudos!!!!

Acupuncture - Not feeling a powerful wish to pursue it now. But I got to swim in a stunning place (a pal's dogsitting at a "castle" close to the mtns, and they urge her to have friends come) yesterday with a couple Covenant Group members. It was bliss. Haven't been swimming in over a year and my body was sooo happy. Still feel good, so good. She wants me to come out any time for the week. LUCKY!

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #841 on: June 19, 2022, 11:33:19 AM »
That makes perfect sense, Hops and I know you're capable of caring for and protecting little Hops and adult Hops..... no more handing forks out to zombies.  I've seen you fight and take a stand....it was glorious.

Amber.....you and B have my thoughts and prayers for the best possible outcome on Friday and beyond. 

I'll be sending healing pink light your way.

Lighter

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #842 on: June 20, 2022, 03:41:12 PM »
Thanks Lighter.

First "wrinkle" showed up this morning. B had been told surgery was in Winchester - a 30 minute drive. This morning, he gets an email saying it's in Prince George's Co, MD. Which is actually located around Alexandria and DC. Hol is very fortunately available to drive... because I won't drive there anymore. Last time in the area, I'd driven my Rubicon. And people didn't seem to understand it's only slightly less dangerous than a tank. World's most aggressive and impatient drivers - and I have gotten lost EVERY time I go into that area. Which is more than slightly dangerous.

So, because of time of appt - and rush hour traffic - we'll probably have a 2 hr drive, early Friday morning and again, leaving the city afterwards. SIGH.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #843 on: June 20, 2022, 04:57:11 PM »
Y'all will make it!

Sometimes when I navigate horrible urban traffic, I decide to go Zen, not care about anything but mellow, risk-free driving decisions...and also tell myself that traffic like that is the same thing as WEATHER.

It's variable, like gusts of wind and if I'm walking, just turn the body a bit and go forward again. And particularly, try to be one minnow in the school.

I really feel for you, how loathsome it is. Hope you'll take ear buds and some kind of music or podcast that just takes you OUT of it.

So glad Hol can drive y'all and send my total best for both you and B, weathering the day.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #844 on: June 21, 2022, 12:02:38 PM »
Whew boy.... that's a lot to deal with, Amber. The change of location would be too much stress for me... .. I posted on your thread already,. but will put it here too.... maybe just spend the night near the surgery center to cut down on stress? 

OK... different topic.  Update on Yelly Guy in the hood.

Cowboy chose to share his story about his breakup with Yelly Guy. Turns out YG was showing up more often, always without invitation and staying past his welcome at the Cowboy's home.  Cowgirl was never happy to come home every day to YG, I saw that with my own eyes before I gently removed myself from that dynamic.  Cowgirl was always creeped out by YG and would run inside if she was sunbathing in the backyard when YG showed up... that sort of thing.  Very obvious and she didn't care who knew.

Everything came to a head one evening when YG was closing physical distance between his face and Cowgirl's face while trying to chat her up on the porch.....and Cowgirl retreated to the upper porch with YG following her.

Cowboy is watching this and tells YG.... "Goodnight, YG. Time for you to go home."

YG ignores Cowboy, who I know was TICKED OFF by having to say something..... and Cowboy follows YG and repeats the order to leave.  YG ignores Cowboy again and asks for cake while following Cowgirl into the house.... Cowboy follows them into the house and orders YG out of his home again. YG responds "I'm just waiting on some of Cowgirl's delicious cake."   YG laughs and makes light of the situation..... Cowboy tells YG to get his cake and leave.  Cowboy is deadly serious at this point.

Cowboy follows YG out and through the garage, at which point Cowboy says.... "YG you aren't wecome back, don't come here anymore."  YG leaves, but without apology or acknowledging he'll comply.

The next day, YG shows up to Cowboy's home with 2 six packs and the desire to laugh off the night before.  Cowboy tells him to take his beer and leave as he really isn't welcome any longer... go... don't come back."

A couple days later YG mows Cowboy's yard.  Something he began doing with a small part of my property where people walk, but I don't cultivate moss. 

Cowboy thanks YG but states, again, YG is no longer welcome in his home or on any part of his property.  Leave and don't come back."

I'm paraphrasing and leaving out details and the history I've witnessed with my own eyes and ears, but that's the short version.  I will say Cowboy looked ashamed when he related YG also spoke about all women innapropriately and it was a problem from the start. I wasn't at all surprised to hear YG talks about women like that.... including all the women in our neigborhood...my children, my sister, me, my niece, cowboy's DIL and the neigborhood wives and daughters.

I told Cowboy the short version of my story and Cowboy said he knew he was diminished by his illness and smaller and weaker than YG,but he had ways to even the playing field..... I could see he felt SO dismissed and disrespected and shamed by YG's treatment.

The conversation ended when Cowboy offered to stand beside me if YG bothered me any more and I have to tell you.... little Lighter felt the warmth of validation and noticed how important and rare it is.

Lighter


Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #845 on: June 21, 2022, 01:38:55 PM »
WOW. Go Cowboy.

Such straight, unambiguous, clear, direct and GORGEOUS boundary setting.
(You'd done similar but of course you're "just a girl." Aaaaarggghhh.)

That was so satisfying to read. I'm verrrrry glad you got that acknowledgement.
YG is not reading clues or worse, so narcissistic or SOMETHING f***ed up, he absolutely dismisses them.

I remember saying to M in my farewell note, "you can utterly ignore anything I say." If an adult human ever does that in a relationship with me again, I'm outta there.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #846 on: June 22, 2022, 06:36:37 AM »
Just my opinion, but ignoring/dimissing a direct request - especially in your own home - without some sort of external emergency, is a direct sign of illness or PD. People like that usually pursue that kind of self-sabotage until finally - totally isolated - they'll justify their bitter resentment by blaming everyone else.

Blech!! Not pleasant. Fortunately, most of the time, not important on the threat scale (my personal meaasurement sense). B is having his own issues with this stuff - being pestered by phone to do work he no longer does and doesn't have the tools to do since he brought them here already. Those people have been told over & over again NO and refuse to look elsewhere.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #847 on: June 22, 2022, 02:21:22 PM »
Wow. The timing. If it's okay to veer off the usual...
I just went through a massive head-butting contest with the older man who runs the weekly discussion group I've been enjoying (ages about 70-96).

He has a massive "think piece" -- a well done one -- that he wanted to present church leadership before the new minister arrives in Aug. I helped him by editing for him and brainstormed with him through a lot of it. I also edited the section he'd stuck in about two proposals that I'd already made to the board. They are "passion projects" and he didn't grasp the details and kept muddling them together. He accepted the edits and it was a good document by the time he sent it in.

Meanwhile, during the process we exchanged a lot of emails and his demands of me increased. At one point he announced that we needed a form of instant video chat or DMs and I realized I felt stressed and smothered and did NOT want to go much further. I declined his "be on call" demands and such but remained congenial and willing to answer queries, etc. Meanwhile, he was evidently deciding, all by himself, a larger plan.

Long story short, he decided that he was not going to (or able to, he's not in great health) continue to be the LEADER of this huge long-term "vision" for the church, and the initial work (which would involve hundreds of hours) had to be completed this summer, and wrote an email to the whole group (and a few others) announcing that he was stepping down and he had "passed the baton" to me and I was "in charge."

Aaacck. I nearly fell over. He never asked me, invited me to think about, or even explored the possibility that I was not ready or willing to accept the role. I emphatically do NOT want that role, and had to trail after him tactfully explaining to the group that I was NOT in charge.

He kept writing me, repeating that I WAS in charge, like it or not. I was now "the face of the project" etc etc. I replied that I did not ask for or want the role, my time and focus is limited to two sub-projects IF others volunteered to develop them with me (low expectations, btw) but I CANNOT and don't WANT to accept the baton, be the leader for the big vision he'd set out, the face of the whole big project, etc.
Meanwhile, his wife had observed: You're putting her in this position without asking her? And he'd replied: Nah it's fine, she's ready to run with it. He actually sent me that exchange!

I told him this. (My "No.")
I gracefully told the dozen or so others this.

He repeated that I was in charge, in various ways and phrasings, again and again. He finally began to CC his wife, who'd observed to him (more than once): You are not hearing her. She said she doesn't want the role. It sounds like a command. Etc.

He would say, oh my wife must be right, and then go on and say it again. It was astonishing. I finally decided that he literally couldn't hear me, and (tactfully) resigned from the group and explained in an email to him (and wife) that I wished him the very best but felt that this just wasn't going to work. I needed to create space and though I think what he does with the elders group is very wonderful and valuable, I'm going to withdraw from involvement (other than my 2 little proposals).

His reply was a whole nasty critique about how I wouldn't do what he asked (basically) and "wasn't forthcoming" and didn't "kick into gear and send him XXX" and all sorts of complaints. Then he speculated about how I don't like to work with men (???? I've loved working with many men! I just don't like domineering ones!). He compared me to Kamala Harris and kept talking about how the church is "run by women" and wound up with something about the plight of "straight white men."

Finally I wrote, "I said, NO thank you." And after about six back and forths (bless his long-suffering wife) it finally penetrated his mind that I was making a choice. He was very diappointed. He didn't seem CAPABLE of grasping that I could choose not to do what he wanted me to do.

I withdrew gently from the discussion group (no mention of him) and he wrote back thanks. Then he wrote me again proposing that we had the seeds of a wonderful friendship and could continue to "collaborate" in future, and "may it be so."

Oy, vey. I felt like running a mile down the interstate with my hair on fire. But that passed. Now I just feel relief. It really was an astounding struggle. Whewwwww.

hugs,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #848 on: June 22, 2022, 02:37:47 PM »
PS Something I loved doing that I gave a couple hours to yesterday was recording a video of me explaining and then reading my favorite Wendell Berry poem. It was a response to being asked by the service leader to contribute to a service made up of members' responses to: "In recent difficult times, what poetry or reading or piece of inspiration has lifted you up and helped you carry on?"

They're going to stitch together some videos and some live readings. Should be a neat service.

Anyway, doing that went straight to my heart and I'm really happy with what I said and how I read. It felt VERY good. The right fit, the thing that inspires me, and something I can give which leaves me afterward feeling grateful and full.

Fuggedabout leading or church politics. I is a poet, and that's what I have to give.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #849 on: June 23, 2022, 04:31:00 PM »
Hops:

If you could go back and start over.... what would yu change about the situation with the mean bully church guy?

Did you miss red flags?  Were there flags you made excuses for?

Did you give this fellow the benefit of the doubt too many times?

I love the poetry passion project you're sharing with others.  I love how much joy it brings you, lovely poet!

Amber:  It makes no sense that people would continue insisting B do work for them when A.  The tools are out of the State now and B. B is heading into surgery... what's wrong with people?

Is B staying in contact for some reason with these people?

Hopalong

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #850 on: June 23, 2022, 05:38:02 PM »
Thanks for asking me these, Lighter -- you help me think, and honestly.

If you could go back and start over.... what would yu change about the situation with the mean bully church guy?
--I'd be wary that my eagerness to participate and make new friends could lead me into prematurely trusting someone.
--I wouldn't call him a bully. Just a totally fixated-on-his-project person who in a pretty amazing way, literally couldn't (wouldn't? dunno) hear me when I said: NO.

Did you miss red flags?  Were there flags you made excuses for?
--Mainly the classic one: he was charming, very warm, and charismatic. He made me feel soooo welcome. (By "classic" I mean N-behavior, a kind of love-bombing, but I dunno if narcissism is the right explanation for his thing. It's just a way of being approached that I should always be wary about with anyone, M or F.)

Did you give this fellow the benefit of the doubt too many times?
--I'm not sure. Lots of factors may have left me off guard, including his age/health and his couple years of service with that group, of which I was a pretty new member. I gave him respect because he led it well and the people were so lovely.

When it REALLY woke me up, and that was sudden but also extremely clear...was when he demanded that I arrange a tech-way of being on call to him all the time. It began to dawn on me that this man was SO focused on his own grand project that he was treating me like an underling...and this isn't customary in cooperative community VOLUNTEER stuff. I wasn't his employee or assistant!

Then it sank all the way in, when he literally ignored my NO. Multiple times.

Hopefully I'll speed up my reaction time when I face a similar situation, but I can say I feel pretty good about having said NO several times this year, to people or situations that assumed too much (without asking) or pushed me too hard.

Turns out a faith (in my case, agnostic) community is like any other -- strong personalities rise, ego issues muddle things, and Ns do like the spotlight. All that said, it's still the best community I've got, and good things happen there too. Very good things. A lot of members are doing things in the city/county that are very admirable, in my book: environment, racial justice, women's rights, voting stuff, etc. So I am still glad it's my people-home.

hugs
Hops
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 05:41:37 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #851 on: June 24, 2022, 03:28:12 PM »
I'm glad you have that community and fellowship, Hops.

I have to admit.... I have a secret small hope that someday, when faced with an ignored NO again,  you'll have the magic ability to use the words....

"fok off" without hesitation or change in biochemsitry.... just say it be done and off to what comes next without another thought.  Maybe even say them with a whistful chuckle.... just NO emotional reactivity AT ALL. 

Maybe, bc you're poet Hops, those words won't be that, exactly, but something more flowery, but send the message you won't be igored. You're an imovable force, with agency and the ability to wield it without hesitation.

I think poeple take a mile if one sends the message we're good with giving inches, Hops.  THAT can be addressed.   It's better to resist judging, so good on you for resisting the word "bully"..... I'll resist too.

 If we hold that first inch of a boundary.... we likely don';t have to worry about the mile, me'thinks.  Then, perhaps, the word bully won't even ross our minds.... much; )

::nodding::

Lighter




sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #852 on: June 24, 2022, 09:16:46 PM »
Oh my goodness. Hops you did good. Yeah sometimes it takes a bit before any of us realize what is going on. You don't have to be laser focused on that. Just be YOU. And when it's uncomfortable - just say NO and mean it. And then take Lighter's advice, and don't mull over it at all. YOU decided. YOU said - in whatever way makes sense to you - you aren't going to deal with this crap any more, and you can't be moved from your decision. DOESN'T MATTER what they feel, no matter how you said it.

NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Do what you want under the conditions you'll accept. You've already EARNED and DESERVE that, HOPS.

Heh-heh, I said so.   ;)
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #853 on: June 24, 2022, 09:18:46 PM »
There mighta been some cognac in my coffee tonight.   :D

I'm celebrating. He's pain-free right now.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Mindfulness and codependence thread
« Reply #854 on: June 24, 2022, 10:33:29 PM »
Whoo hoo!  Pain free is good news.  You earned that cognac, Amber.

Thanks for the update.  When do you head home?

Lighter