Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: guest101 on July 21, 2007, 02:12:44 PM

Title: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 21, 2007, 02:12:44 PM
it might be useful for some who post here to think about the difference between intellectual responses and emotional ones and when one might be given where the other was needed.

for example, it seemed clear to me that overcomer was looking for comfort and understanding on an emotional level when she posted about her friend who had murdered her child and has since been imprisoned in the Are we Mentally Ill thread..

what I seemed to be hearing her say is:  I can't reconcile the friend I knew with the person who could do such a thing.

we all go through this -- when we face the horror of the person we thought we knew and the person whom they become after we've realized what they've done.

this is trauma.

integrating "both" people and understanding that is very difficult, especially since for many of us the horror we're revisiting is the trauma we suffered as children.

that's why people have a hard time believing that their pastor has molested their child, it's just too horrifying, believeing that nice, kind, giving Father so and so has done something so horrible.

we start to question everything we know and feel.

so when we go through something like that, intellectual explanations, definitions don't make us feel any better - I think they make us feel worst, IMO.

when we're trying to explain our feelings, others get offended and then we have to trip over ourselves apologizing to them for their hurt feelings and our feelings never get addressed.

I can imagine that many of us experienced this a lot growing up.

at the very least, this thread should give us all some things to think about.

I suppose what we're looking for is someone to say they understand and to share where they've felt the same feelings, too.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 21, 2007, 02:41:42 PM
Hello Guest,
Is there something of your own story you'd like to share too?

Don't know anything about who you are...

Welcome,
Hopalong
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 21, 2007, 02:58:42 PM
Dear Guest,
  I 100% agree with what you are saying. I have tried to say this --on several occasions-- but I could not say it in the way that you did, although I "felt" it.
  There are two levels.Someone will ask a question on an emotional level and get an intellectual answer which just pushes them back in to "shame" and feeling like they were wrong to ask it.
  The people giving the "intellectual " answers ,often, are blocking the "same' emotions that the question brought up. Instead  of "owning " that they are blocking their own emotions-- they try to "take away the emotions of the  other person."
   I think that we, on the board, and in real life need to ignore those answers . Also, to know that the person who cannot understand on an emotional level is simply blocking their own pain. The trick is to not 'let them "push you away from your own healing.  That is the key-- on the board and in real life b/c those people are always there. 
                                                                       Love  Ami
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 21, 2007, 04:23:15 PM
Thanks Besee
   We all do it to others and  others do it to us---What I realized is that I have to honor my core and not let other opinions be put higher than my own gut. I think that this is a crucial lesson in life--- not just this one small area.Besee,  thanks for that sweet response, friend. It takes a lot of humility on your part to admit something like this                                     Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: JanetLG on July 21, 2007, 04:31:51 PM
Izzy,

Ami wrote:
"There are two levels.Someone will ask a question on an emotional level and get an intellectual answer which just pushes them back in to "shame" and feeling like they were wrong to ask it."

And you replied with:

"HUH?"

I think what Ami is saying is that, suppose a person writes on the forum," I feel like so-and-so when this happens", and they get a response from someone who says, "Ah, that's wotsit theory, propounded by DrThingy, everyone knows that!".

That's an emotional level comment replied to with an intellectual one.

If the original poster wanted an emotional reply, they'd have felt better if they had a response such as: "I've had that, it was dreadful, it made me feel terrible. I'm sorry for you."

Getting an analytical response when you wanted an intuitive/emotional one makes you feel ashamed for asking the 'wrong' question (even though it's not wrong).

Is that what you were saying, Ami?


Janet

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 21, 2007, 04:47:30 PM
Yes-- Thank you ,Janet                               
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 21, 2007, 05:16:19 PM
Note to self:

Lable my threads accordin to responses I wish to receive.

Hmmmmm, makes sense to me.


Example:



I hate my marriage and need words of encouragement please!

As opposed to....

I keep banging my head against the wall...  why do you think it hurts?



Or.....


Need understanding and empathy regarding Nmum dilemma.

as opposed to...


Do you think I should go NC with Nmum?


We could also invite or prohibit debate and/or support and limit a thread to only those responses we desire on a particular subject under the rules and regulations of...... ummmmm....... guest 101 was it?.... according to a posters invidivual need for emotional or intillectual responses.

::HUGE intake of breath::

All posters unable to limit or control said responses will be asked to sit in the naughty box and think about what they've done.  ::nodding::

If guest 101 is Dr. G.....  I know I got time in the naughty box coming, lol; )  



Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: mudpuppy on July 21, 2007, 05:31:40 PM
Hi g101,

  No offense intended, but I went back and read your posts on Overcomer's thread and they seemed remarkable for how devoid of emotion they were and seemed to me to be almost completely of an intellectual nature.
  Now I'm not tossing rocks here as I usually give the wrong response myself, but I just found the wise counsel in this thread a tad at odds with your actual words on Overcomer's. Perhaps you perceived your words on her thread as emotional support and I am misinterpereting them myself. Or perhaps you are criticising yourself here. I don't know.
 I also wonder if Overcomer herself feels "imprisoned" on her thread.
 Not looking for conflict, just speaking my admittedly occasionally ossified mind.

mud
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 21, 2007, 05:48:51 PM
Dear Izzy,
   I am going to defer to someone else to explain it .                                 Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 21, 2007, 06:37:25 PM
Ok, people, here goes, I really HATE to get into this again.
Although I'm not the Guest poster, I guess I have to agree with what they said.
I just couldn't articulate it like they did.
When I came to this board, I was so excited to find a place where I could just get it all out without an "intelectual" point of view. Just some place where I could be heard. With people who understood what I was saying & didn't mind that I let it all hang out. As I grew a little stronger, I began to see I had something positive to offer back. After the "intelectual"  discussion & all the stuff was said about being more PC, & sensitive to what was being written, I began to question if it was ME that was not doing the right thing & hurting others that come here for help. As you know, that opened Pandora's Box. In her box were all the negative things that I've internalized all my life.
BTW, I always try to be PC when dealing with other hurting people. I don't find that wrong or offensive, but who's to say what's right or wrong (of couse I don't mean racial or ethnic type slurs) if you are not the hurting person? I'm not sure I would want to make that call. And BTW, NOTHING on this board that I "stumbled across" has ever hurt me in a personal way. Not until I felt I was being called to task about my post. A few posters, while being supportive, seemed to leture me that I was wrong because I felt that way. Again, I know someone with my issues doesn't always know she is being attacked or not. But I did feel that way. I want ANYONE to be able to say what they want (including me) without having to see it from an inelectual point of view. That's not what I'm here for. It feels like I'm being lectured to.I'm here first & foremost to get it all out, then proceed with my healing.
I hope you can try & see my point of veiw. I didn't think I'd ever be able to post again, even when I said I would. So, I'm trying to be brave & face this particular fear.
Thanks for listening,
Bigalspal  
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: JanetLG on July 21, 2007, 06:48:19 PM
Bigalspal,

Please keep posting! I learn so much from your posts. I'm sorry you felt 'got at' sometimes.

I think what you've explained, though, is very true. Especiallly when people first find this board, it tends to result in a splurge of emotional offloading, because it's such a relief to be among people who don't look at you as if you're mad.

Then, people not exactly 'calm down', but they get to the point where they can offer advice to others, based on their experiences...and that's where the problems start, because some people want the emotional stuff, and some want the intellectual stuff.

If we were 'rational' enough when we start a new thread to say ' with this one, I'm looking for theories and answers' or 'with this one, I'm looking for sympathy and me-too responses', it would be simple. But we're emotional, feeling people, and we've all been hurt. Badly. So sometimes we are unclear in what we ask for, and sometimes we're a bit blinkered when we read other people's posts, because we're all starting from different places.

I don't see an answer to it, really, except to all try to be understanding, and not critical of other people's offers of support.

Here endeth the lesson! :D

I'm off for some chocolate, before somebody flames me.

Janet
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 21, 2007, 07:10:00 PM
Hi g101,

  No offense intended, but I went back and read your posts on Overcomer's thread and they seemed remarkable for how devoid of emotion they were and seemed to me to be almost completely of an intellectual nature.
  mud

Ummmm.... 101's first post actually looked like it was copied from a medical source and was sans empathy for Overcomer. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 21, 2007, 07:14:47 PM
Lighter,
OMG! I felt EXCATLY the opposite as you did!
I felt Guest101 was saying his/her post with warmth and comfort. It really made me feel like someone "got me".
I didn't feel like it came from a text book. Just the opposite. I THANK Guest101!
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 21, 2007, 07:19:38 PM
Lighter,
OMG! I felt EXCATLY the opposite as you did!
I felt Guest101 was saying his/her post with warmth and comfort. It really made me feel like someone "got me".
I didn't feel like it came from a text book. Just the opposite. I THANK Guest101!
Bigalspal

Are you talking about Guest101's FIRST post on Overcomer's thread?  I do believe it was copied directly out of a medical source.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 21, 2007, 07:21:25 PM
I'm talking about Guest101's ORIGINAL thread. THIS one we are now on. The first post.
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 21, 2007, 07:31:03 PM
I'm talking about Guest101's ORIGINAL thread. THIS one we are now on. The first post.
Bigalspal

The posts Mud and I were referring to were from Overcomer's thread, ARE WE MENTALLY ILL? as follow:



guest101
Guest


   Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2007, 05:49:57 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mentally ill or not, violence arises when one feels that they have little or no other option to effectuate control over their own life.  IMO, those with dysfunctional  parents are more suseptible to becoming violent and/or abusive because of learned behavior and poor modeling coupled w/ feelings of hopelessness, low self-esteem, et cetera.





Does mental illness cause violence?

Mental illness plays no part in the majority of violent crimes committed in our society. The assumption that any and every mental illness carries with it an almost certain potential for violence has been proven wrong in many studies.

There is a relationship between violent behaviour and symptoms which cause the person to feel threatened and/or involve the overriding of personal control. Examples of these criteria include specific symptoms such as command hallucinations and feeling that one's mind is being dominated by outside forces.

Current research shows that people with major mental illness are 2.5 times more likely to be the victims of violence than other members of society. This most often occurs when such factors as poverty, transient lifestyle and substance use are present. Any of these factors make a person with mental illness more vulnerable to assault and the possibility of becoming violent in response.

Who is at risk?

The pattern of violence is remarkably similar whether a person is suffering with a mental illness or not. People with a mental illness, for instance, are no more likely than anyone else to harm strangers. Violent behaviour by anyone is generally aimed at family and friends, rather than strangers, and it happens in the home, not in public.

Typically, spouses, other intimates and other family members are the targets of violence committed by a person with mental illness. Most of this violence is committed by men and directed to women - as is the case in the population as a whole.

Factors affecting violence

The conditions which increase the risk of violence are the same whether a person has a mental illness or not. Throughout our society, alcohol and drug use are the prime contributors to violent behaviour.

Another important factor is a violent background. Individuals suffering from psychosis or neurological impairment who live in a stressful, unpredictable environment with little family or community support may be at increased risk for violent behaviour. The risk for family violence is related to, among other factors, low socioeconomic status, social stress, social isolation, poor self esteem and personality problems.


http://www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=3-108
 
 Report to moderator    Logged 
 
 
 
guest101
Guest


   Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2007, 06:01:38 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P. S. for myself, I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence although I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from anyone in the least.  I've been both the abuser and the abused so I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for their choices - I don't see myself as "different" only fortunate.  All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices. 

People who are in pain make painful choices and usually end up hurting themselves and those who are closest to them, whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign"  as hurtful words.  End Post





 



 
 
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 21, 2007, 07:50:12 PM
Hi Lighter,
I guess we got our wires crossed. I do see what you mean. That post does seem clinical.
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 22, 2007, 12:19:35 AM
The quoted text from the Are We Mentally Ill thread does not include my P.S.:

Quote
P. S. for myself, I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence although I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from anyone in the least.  I've been both the abuser and the abused so I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for their choices - I don't see myself as "different" only fortunate.  All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices.

People who are in pain make painful choices and usually end up hurting themselves and those who are closest to them, whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign"  as hurtful words.

But be that as it may, I don't have to be perfect to bring up a topic or mention something here, on this open forum. 

It is for this reason that I do not, and will never participate on this board as a active member-- copying an earlier post and accusing me with it just because I brought up a subject; it's not at all productive.

for those who were able to take something positive away from what I brought up, great  -- I am so happy for you.

for those who were not, maybe in the future you will -- or not.  we're all walking our own path at our own pace.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 22, 2007, 12:35:48 AM
and also:

Email
   
   
Quote
Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2007, 09:13:41 PM »
   
Quote
It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's.

Only a person who feels they have absolutely no control over their own life wants to control anothers life.

Anyone who seeks to hurt another does so because of their own internal pain, IMO

Christianity teaches us that there is no "big" or "little" sin.

I don't think anyone suffers abuse on a daily basis as a child and emerges mentally well.  Perhaps funtionally, capable and able but not "well".

I tried to reply with sympathy and understanding while also providing some factual information.  The topic was created as a way to look at how the board could function better and it some people did have the same concerns I had.  So I think it would be unfortunately if tthe introduction of this topic was taken negatively.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 01:34:51 AM
Hi again.
I appreciate how the nice folks on this board responded to my replies on Guest101's thread.
So far, I haven't felt like I've been attacked. But I'm going to be honest later on, so that might change.  I see not very many people have posted a reply to Guest101's thread. Maybe it's the weekend, or maybe poster's want this topic to go away. I felt that way at first. Then I thought It was better for me to enter the fray again.
Since I am, I feel I must clear up a misunderstanding.
I was not reacting to the abortion issues per se. This is what I was reacting to:

Do YOU think you are lucky to be alive, too??

my mother smoked and drank and was very neglectful and unpleasant, still- we all managed to be fed and clothed and schooled and to survive our childhood!

The abortion issue is another topic, and what a hateful thing to say to a child, but I am guessing that a person who chooses to have an abortion isn't equating it to the murder or neglect of a developed baby which has actually been born.

These are difficult topics and I hope they do not give pain to anyone who stumbles into these threads or whose lives have been touched by these issues.

OKAY, first of all, I felt the poster was minimizing my pain at having been told that. It's pretty harsh to suggest that I meant it that way. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, it's none of my business. But, don't you think I don't wonder EVERYDAY what it would've been like NOT to have been born? In my way of figuring, it might have been better TO have been aborted than live with the S##T I've had to live with for almost 50 years? Not asking for pity, just stating the facts. You don't know me! You don't know what I've been through! I was TRYING to tell you, but you sure cut me down to size before I had the chance to tell you. I didn't ask for medical jargon.I asked a simple question. Do you feel lucky to have survived? What part of that don't you understand?
What about that was offensive? Because I assure you I AM lucky to be alive. If my NMother could have gotten to an abortionist, I would NOT be. It's that simple. She meant it. And to me, that is worse than not being born. Because she did not make it. And I KNOW she did not make it.
KNOWING is WORSE. To me.
And the last statement about harming people who stumble across this board with this topic.
How about YOU?? I stumbled across this board. YOU hurt ME.
Here's something else I regret. Apologizing for being hurt by you! I told you I was sorry & then I minimized my own pain! Man, I got stuck in "it was all my fault" trap in a hurry.
You never directly told me it was ok. And I just kept on wimpering.
I feel I just have to say this. There's a lot of talk about people being able to say what the feel on this board. So I said it. I know I must live up to that as well, so feel free to bring it on. If I feel I can't handle it, or Dr Grossman feels I don't need to be here, well, I'll be OK. I know my stomach won't hurt anymore from holding this all inside.
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 02:13:35 AM

Quote

But be that as it may, I don't have to be perfect to bring up a topic or mention something here, on this open forum. 
Guest101


Oh the irony: /
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: sally on July 22, 2007, 02:19:34 AM
For me, the intellectual vs. the emotional is a chicken and egg issue.  I don’t want to be completely ruled by either and I need both.  Thoughts effect emotions and vice verse.

In my posts, I often mention Alice Miller and John Bradshaw and I feel that very few want to discuss their ideas.  But for me, I would not be able to understand why I feel the emotions that I feel without having read Miller, Bradshaw and others.

If I hadn’t read about Narcissism (an intellectual activity), I would still be walking around in an N fog, wondering why I feel so bad (my emotions).

So, I think both the intellectual and the emotional are important.  I don’t see the two as an “either/or”.

I understand Guest’s point.  For me, since I am not a therapist and since I grew up in an N household, sometimes I find it difficult to know what to say in response to a post.  Also, sometimes, I don’t have a lot of time to respond (let alone read the post), so I write something fast.

Also, I feel like this board is ganging upon Guest and scapegoating him/her.  OK, so maybe Guest said one thing and did the other, but, why not just point that out in a nice, compassionate way? 

Maybe Guest was unaware that he/she contradicted him/herself and by people pointing this out in a compassionate way, Guest could have learned something about him/herself.  I think we post here to enlighten ourselves, not to dump on each other.  So, why dump on Guest just because he/she contradicted him/herself? 

sally
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 02:25:06 AM
I feel I just have to say this. There's a lot of talk about people being able to say what they feel on this board. So I said it. I know I must live up to that as well, so feel free to bring it on. If I feel I can't handle it, or Dr Grossman feels I don't need to be here, well, I'll be OK. I know my stomach won't hurt anymore from holding this all inside.
Bigalspal



((((Pal's tummy))))

I see this as a terrific learning experience for you and everyone on this board.  

As Shrek said....

"Better out than in, I always say, lol"

It's OK to speak your truth, that's what everyone here's learning to do; )  
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 02:35:30 AM

Maybe Guest was unaware that he/she contradicted him/herself and by people pointing this out in a compassionate way, Guest could have learned something about him/herself.  I think we post here to enlighten ourselves, not to dump on each other.  So, why dump on Guest just because he/she contradicted him/herself? 

sally



I had hoped Guest101 would receive board responses in the same spirit she posted her OP. 

Can you please post an example of someone "dumping on" Guest? 

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: sally on July 22, 2007, 03:08:30 AM
I don't know what happened on Overcomer's thread and when I went to look for Guest's post, I couldn't find it.

BAP, I really sympathize with what you wrote here about your mom.  It's terrible.  ((((((((((BAP)))))))))))).  I'm so sorry you went thru that.

Lighter, I am not looking to pick a fight with you.  I enjoy your posts and you are very intelligent.  But, when you wrote "oh the irony", I think that was harsh, especially after Guest tried to explain his/her intention. 

Again, I don't know what happened on the other thread, but the I understand what Guest is saying and I think that the issue of not validating someone's emotions while just trying to fix their problem is a valid point.

Got to go to sleep.

sally
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 04:52:15 AM



Sally:

If you can't find Guest101's posts, Second Page, page 4 posts.....

I provided them on this thread, in their entirety, PS included. 

In my defense, BAP asked for clarity on one of my posts.   

I provided them for that reason. 

Not to invalidate G101 or call her a hypocrite. 

Had I wanted to do those things, I assure you, I would have just come out and said as much. 

She misunderstood....



or.....



something. 


As for my "Oh the irony" comment. 

I think it would be fair to provide the entire post for context's sake? 

Short of that, I will respond with this.....

I do not have to be perfect in order to respond to a topic or post on this open forum.



::holding up hands and backing away from the computer slowly:: 



I see irony here.... lol..... does no one else see irony on this thread?

Irony doesn't have to be a harsh thing.... it can be a reality check thing too, lol.

Right?


::continuing to back away slowly... turning around and running like hell...... shouting over shoulder::..


I now invoke Guest Pirate's "think before we post" Code, whereby Pirate Lighter receive safe passage, empathy and support ONLY for the duration of this thread :shock:

 

::bouncing off wall, rubbing/hanging head.... preparing to spend time in the naughty chair::


::sniff::

Lighter has feelings too, lol.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 22, 2007, 08:03:58 AM
Hi all, and Guest 101:

I think I contributed to the squabble or may have helped spark it, and I want to apologize.

Guest 101, once earlier when you posted in a thread of ReallyMe's (I don't remember which one) I had a similar reaction to you. I don't have much justification, and I may have been projecting something totally inappropriate. I just remember then, as now, feeling a sense of "who are you?" that I don't normally feel when a new poster comes on and comments. I remember also feeling protective of ReallyMe for some reason. (Sometimes nobody is needing my protection....I just project protection!)

Anyway, I'm sorry. I think what I should have said is: Guest 101, I would like to get to know you a little better before I can relate more comfortably. Would you mind sharing a little bit of your own story?

I don't think there was anything wrong with your comments here, and I appreciate your contribution to the dialogue. I think I just have a feeling of needing to know more about you. It's your choice of course. And I apologize for challenging you so gracelessly.

Hope that helps, and sorries everybody,
Hopalong
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 22, 2007, 08:12:16 AM
I think that there are many issues going on with this thread..
 The board is like real life and it can help  us function in real life better. In real life, there will be people who give you an intellectual response when you wanted and needed an emotional one. This is probably the responders inability to acknowledge their own personal pain.
  In real life, people will be insensitive like the response that Bigalsapal got about being"happy that she was alive". This is a great example of someone lashing out at another person b/c of their own pain. We all have done it and  all have had it done to us. We all can get triggered. It is more likely to happen if we are blocking our unhealed parts. This happens a lot in therapy and can really damage the patient.
    The most important thing is what Bigal pal did. She did not run away in shame. She wanted to, but she held on and brought the issue to light.
  The learning for her( and us) is that this type of thing will happen.We need to know how to hold on to "ourselves" and not let another person take our reality away from us.
  We are here b/c we were contaminated by N's and lost our voice. We can't control what someone says to us,but we can still be our own friend by trusting our own reality rather than someone else's.
  I see this as the crucial lesson .
   When someone snipes at me, I see it as an opportunity to grow.I need those opportunities b/c I was not taught those types of lessons . I was trying  to survive and  N mother. No one taught me that I was lovable and worth protecting. I am vulnerable and raw. I continually get hurt b/c I do not protect myself.
  These type of board experiences help to make me strong  and better able to handle the experience when it happens in real life and it WILL happen                       Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on July 22, 2007, 08:19:52 AM
What I found when I joined this board, way back when, was that people really were becoming offended that I was talking about my situation.  I was told to just "Let it go" by some folks and others just out and out told me to stop talking about it and let the healing process begin.  One person even tried to make me feel that X was justified in how she treated me.

It seems that the best way to handle things, if you feel attacked from people on this board, is:

a.) realize that almost everyone here was either raised by N's or dysfunctional people, has/had friends that were dysfunctional, or wants to share their experiences.

b.) step away from the board for a while till things simmer down.  When you come back, wait and read other people's posts, and only begin sharing your story again after you sense that things are heading in a safe direction in general.

c.) really decide in yourself, if posting your situation again, is going to receive some helpful and supportive responses, or, if it's going to stir up a hornets nest when they see the familiar names and places in your post.

*I'm sorry if those A, B, C's sound intellectual.  I very much am an intellectual type of person, and I live my life in a step by step format for the most part when I can.  Those are just things from my experience with this V Board, that have worked very well for me.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 09:19:34 AM
it might be useful for some who post here to think about the difference between intellectual responses and emotional ones and when one might be given where the other was needed.

Oh dear. 

Guest 101, It seemed clear to me that Overcomer does not believe her friend murdered her infant son. 

How odd you refer to Heidi as 'her friend who murdered her child' on this particular thread?   


Quote
for example, it seemed clear to me that overcomer was looking for comfort and understanding on an emotional level when she posted about her friend who had murdered her child and has since been imprisoned in the Are we Mentally Ill thread..

[/quote][/b][/b]
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Guest101 on July 22, 2007, 11:22:22 AM
well, speaking strictly from my heart -- many here already know my story.

very well.

but when I was the most hurting and vulnerable instead of receiving love and support I was attacked.

and it was a very painful, terrible experience.

traumatizing.

I learned and grew from it by the grace of God.

I saw a little bit of that behavior on the thread I mentioned, so I wanted to point it out, hoping that new comers here might be spared the horror I was went through.

 :) but that for me is my family script -- always trying to fix and make things better, no matter how hopeless it may seem or fruitless it may be.



what I've learned is that some people as Ami so greatly described feel more comfortable talking about facts than they do feelings but  since I am trying so hard to feel my feelings, those people are not safe for me to talk to.

when I talk to those people they may feel they're helping but they are really hurting me.  some people can hear about another's pain and respond but some just hear "you're wrong" and attack. :(  I think RMs a,b,c for posting hear are great to help avoid those situations.  but for some it is necessary to go through those situations, to heal.  only God knows.

I knew that some people here could hear what I had to say with an open heart and respond lovingly, so I put it out there.

it worked.

for some.

for others -- it's not time or they're not ready or I don't know.  I'm not an expert or a therapist.

but I'll say this.  my heart and intentions are in the right place and I have absolutely zero interest in fighting, arguing, justifying or moutning a case.

you see, i trust myself.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 22, 2007, 12:44:08 PM
There's something about this thread that's just not settling with me on any level - intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually.

Lighter has pointed out some of the "intellectual" discrepancies.

Along with those, what I'm sensing is this -

I feel like people who are more emotional are being automatically assigned a higher value than those who may relate on a more intellectual basis, as though the emotional ones are deemed weaker and therefore more in need of understanding and indulgence...
as though those who respond from the intellect are somehow more responsible for themselves (and for others!!) than those who allow emotions to flow freely.

And yet, I also sense an underlying assumption that those who respond from the intellect are somehow more severely incapacitated and less "healed" than those who allow emotions to flow freely. My sense of it is that the emotionally oriented person is presumed to be superior because he/she is more "in touch".


Personally, I'm having trouble getting these undercurrents which I'm sensing to jive, but the message which comes across to me is this:
"If you relate more from your mind, then you need to change because that's not helpful to me and you should know that!"

I comment on my own perceptions here because of my recollections that  NPD-ex could be extremely emotional -
 but only about his own feelings.
He was also an expert at "do as I say, not as I do."

I'd just like to point out that the ability to respond in a practical, thoughtful manner does not necessarily indicate that a poster is unemotional.
It may mean that he/she chooses to not allow those emotions to run rampant.
It may also have far less to do with his/her own capacity to "feel" than it relates to a history of being deluged with N's self-centered, self-absorbed flood of "emotion" which is so often used as a tool to distract from the genuine issues at hand.

If this is a thread about what might be helpful to the board in general, my suggestion is that everyone keep in mind the fact that there's not an individual here who hasn't in some way been run roughshod over by the N's of this world. We're all dealing with the same consequences, each in our own way.

With love,
Hope




Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 22, 2007, 01:02:10 PM
Gosh, Guest, that explains your opacity.
I'm very sorry you had a hard time here.

I hope you'll be able to work it through openly.
Or at least that you've come back because you've also found supportiveness.

Ditto to Hope: those N-surviving consequences come out in everybody in different ways.

Glad you're here and I hope you have a good experience now.

Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 01:12:15 PM
Hi,
I don't know WHAT the h##l is going on here, but this is not the safe, loving community I thought is was. Some people just seems to live & breathe for this crap! "I AM RIGHT!" "NO, I"M RIGHT!".
God help me, I'm falling into it, too. I'm SICK & HURTING, people!
I'm a newbie. I'm haven't been here for years. I need you to go back & remember what it felt like to be in my shoes. I need you to STOP thinking like this community is a Jr high school classroom.
This person is the WISE one. This person is the EMOTIONAL one. This person is the longterm GURU.
I've got to stick with this one. What does this newbie know?? *SNIFF SNIFF* (nose up in the air).
This newbie knows this is not good. This is not safe & loving anymore.
This is not a place to come for support. This place has become a clique! I wasn't in one in high school, & I HURT from that. I don't want to choose sides. I want to be excepted by ALL of you.
Some old timers jump to the defense of their friends that have been here for years & excuse away & try to explain away hurting behavior. Then they turn around & say the same things to the newbie! It confusing! That leaves (I'll speak for ME) the newbie out in the cold.
Someone needs to get this back under control. I can't do it, I don't have the tools. I don't want to anyway.
Everyone talks about ideas to make this place better. OK, I have one. How about A "Newbie Corner" where we newbies that are in a different place, can come and BE in that place without fear of posting the wrong thing. I can't stand this arguing back & forth. I guess you are saying, "Well, LEAVE, then!" I don't WANT to leave. I was so excited to find this place that I just started to melt. Melting away all the hurt & frustration & misinformation that was holding me back.
All I wanted from this board was a listening ear & a new friend. And I wanted to listen, too.
Yes, we DO need oldtimers to give us support & move us forth in our healing, but we need it without all this ENDLESS he said, she said bullcrap!
Don't lecture me. LISTEN to me. If a need a lecture, I have my NMother's phone number.
Bigalspal  
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: sally on July 22, 2007, 02:16:12 PM
Dear BG Pal,

I did not follow Overcomer's thread, so I did not read about the abortion issue, but let me say how much I feel for you ((((((((((((((((((((BGPal)))))))))))))))))))))).  Wow, your issue is huge and from what I've read, it's hung over you like a dark shadow your entire life.  I'm so glad you're giving it light.  Please feel free to explore it, yell it, scream it, do whatever you want to do.  It goes to the essence of your life and your being.

BGPal, I wanted to tell you that your post is GOLD:  Yes, this whole junior high thing, picking on people, Newbies sometimes having to "prove" themselves thru a trial of fire and woe is the newbie who screws up:  Then, no one will pick that newbie for their kickball team or sit with them at lunch!!!!!!!!!!!!!  LORD:  Do we ever grow up??????????

One thing I'm learning about voicelessness:  I will post whatever I want to post and I as long as I never have the intent to hurt another poster, I will not care whatever anyone else says.

I suppose what I didn't like about the way this thread was going is that a junior high mob seemed to be dumping on someone who actually was making a good point.  OK, maybe that person screwed up by saying one thing and doing the other, but maybe they weren't aware of it.  So, instead of dumping on an unproven newbie with a shacky track record, can we try to gently and with compassion  point out that person's blind spot?  I think we are all kind of blind (and voiceless), otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Anyway, sorry you became so embroiled in the dispute, BGpal.  You did not cause it.  I hope you feel safer.

With love,
sally
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 02:22:49 PM
I'm so sorry this is so upsetting for you (((Pal)))  


Honestly, I lurked here for a good long time before I ever posted because there was strife on the board.

I was just too broken and overwhelmed to deal with the terrible anxiety of figuring out who was who and who was right and who was the trusty guru I couldn't afford to upset by posting nice to someone transient and likely to leave.   (((BAP)))  I'm used to really bad board dynamics and this just isn't the same as a debate board, for instance.  

I remember thinking that all the posters names ran together here.... I couldn't begin to tell anyone apart...... I just knew that my heart was pounding and I needed someone to hear me but I was too afraid to post.  I NEEDED ANSWERS AND INFORMATION!

I'm so sorry this is happening to you and for all I know it's the same struggle that was going on when I was a lost broken newbie wondering what the hell was going on.

All I can say is..... if Guest comes back that misunderstandings can be talked through.  This is support board.  You can start a thread and request JUST support when you're feeling particularly vulnerable.  That's one thing I got from Guest's post and it makes sense to me!  

I don't understand exactly what's going on here either ((((Sweetie))))  What I do know is.... that this is a place where people come when they're in pain and sometimes we do step on someone's toes.  So far, I've managed to work through the misunderstandings I've been in the middle of.  ::Knock on wood::

I think there should be some rules to help us feel safer.

1)  Share when you're feeling vulnerable so people CAN respond with definite support in a mindful manner..... when you're really in need..... or choose to gently sidestep your post if they can't.  We all have struggles and go in and out of being OK so we sometimes have to sidestep or step up to the plate if we hurt someone and work through it.

2)  Ask for C L A R I F I C A T I O N  before jumping to conclusions.  It may very well be that you deserve to be upset at another poster or two.  But make sure what their intentions were before you assume and give them a chance to take something back or explain what happened.  Sometimes they were just in a hurry and posted quickly without proofing their post.  It happens.  It happened to me with Izzy and boy...... she used it as an opportunity to practice asserting herself and boy did she!  We both learned from working our problem through.  It was a misunderstanding.

Sometimes we do get triggered and that just can't be helped.  There are also social/board dynamics that are just a part of life in every group we enter.  Sorry, I can't do much about that and I have certain posters that make me feel safe and posters that don't.  Consider the source in every circumstance when gaining information.

USE this board and get comfortable communicating within this relatively safe framework of survivors.  Any dispute is very upsetting for me too.  I'm so sorry I'm a part of this one but.... I really felt a tug at Guest's wrist slapping for something she herself seemingly did and it made no sense.  I wasn't angry but I did need some clarification and I tried to use humor.  Hostility is very upsetting for me. ::nodding::  

I like things to make sense.  

I like to know why.  

I like to be treated fairly and not be asked to doubt my reality.  (((BAP)))

 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 22, 2007, 02:27:00 PM
I think what the real point of this thread is that there are some mean people here who are hurting people b/c they are being mean-- that is it. I tried to say that it was b/c they were blocked. It is b/c they are mean. Hope, you always have wise kind things to say. Most people here do. However , there are others who are just mean
   This is what is going on. Tho other stuff is just words.
   The great majority of people on here are trying to help.--- 99%. However, there is that small other percentage  There are a few people here who that like to snipe people.' It drives new people away. However, this is how life is, I guess.I guess that there is really no totally safe place.This is probably part of the healing. We want to find a place where we can be safe and not be hurt. I don't think that it exists. We will always have to protect ourselves, I think.
   God will always send us people to reach out and help--- in the midst of it all . This is my opinion and my impression             Love  Ami

 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 02:35:25 PM


but when I was the most hurting and vulnerable instead of receiving love and support I was attacked.

and it was a very painful, terrible experience.

traumatizing.


I'm sorry that you feel that way Guest.  I hope you can come back and work it out.... that we all can learn from it.  ((Guest))
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: dandylife on July 22, 2007, 02:51:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been doing some research on mental illness.  My friend, Heidi Anfinson, is in jail for killing her newborn son, but I am convinced it was post partum depression.  She is in jail but I think a lot of us live in our own jail.  We have been bullied, manipulated, abused by N and we snapped.  I purpose over the years some people like us have snapped to the point of murder.  Maybe Bundy had an N mom but rather than being like us, he snapped.  Or Jeffrey Dahmer?  I wonder if cause victims 
 
 Report to moderator    Logged 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........"
 
 
Overcomer
Hero Member

Posts: 986


    Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2007, 10:02:51 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
actually have chemicals in their brain change after so much abuse and brainwashing?  Could that be why we know in our heart what we need to do to get better but we just cannot seem to wra our minds around it?
 
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: dandylife on July 22, 2007, 03:00:38 PM
sorry, I was going to make a comment and pushed the button too soon.

I posted Overcomer's original thought above (below - whatever).

In looking at this with "new eyes", I can see that her opening statement probably triggered some people on the board who have struggled or dealt with mental illness - depression, bipolar, etc.

What was she studying? To what ends? Only in relation to her friend? Why the comment about "studying about mental illness?"

It's really not clear.

In the human brain, when something is not clear, it's normal for the brain to fill in the blanks.

The only way to do that is through our own filters.

Since we are all individuals with our own life stories, filters, values, etc., we all fill in the blanks differently.

Her post spoke to me in a different way than it may have spoken to others.

My brain is thirsty for facts.

So, I researched the story to find out what I could, and then I posted a response.

Others may have posted emotional hair trigger responses. Others may have posted other kinds of very well-thought-out responses.

Fact is, we're all different.

That's the beauty of this place.

That should be celebrated.

Some posts will be helpful. Some will be completely off.

We need to be discerning enough for ourselves to take what is helpful.

Especially if we don't ask for something specific.

If I post, I usually state what I'm struggling with, then I ask for a specific response. Thoughts, opinions, anyone experienced this?

Sometimes a post is simply to give helpful information to others.

There is a board moderator who can step in if there are inappropriate posts. That happens very infrequently.

I think to ask posters to post in a certain way is creating an atmosphere built on control and a BPD-esque "you should know what I'm thinking".

Celebrate differences, celebrate opionions.

This is what we live for as humans who relate to each other as communicators.

When someone floats a thought on the board, it's asking, pleading for other thoughts to be shared.

That's exactly why we're here, right?

Dandylife
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 22, 2007, 03:29:50 PM
Dandylife,

Just wanted you to know that your post helped me alot... thanks!

As somebody who's just coming to recognize that it's okay to even have needs, I post without a preset notion of what may be the "correct" response. I also understand that everyone's different, and so I feel that the responsibility is mine - to sift through the replies I get, spitting out the sticks.

The "you should know what I'm thinking" approach is what sets off warning bells for me. NPD ex used that one with gusto. Knowing that my upbringing had left me with very little emotional strength and courage, he took advantage to blame every misunderstanding or disagreement on my lack of concern for his "feelings". If I cared about his "feelings", I wouldn't suggest that he was being a selfish jerk, that what he was saying made no sense whatsoever, that he lied through his teeth and it was always somebody else's fault, that maybe, just maybe, he was occasionally w r o n g.

That is the rest of my emotional response to this thread. Thank you for bringing it further into the light so that now I CAN celebrate the differences and opinions and not take offense when somebody doesn't "get" me.

Love,
Hope
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 03:31:08 PM
What I found when I joined this board, way back when, was that people really were becoming offended that I was talking about my situation.  I was told to just "Let it go" by some folks and others just out and out told me to stop talking about it and let the healing process begin.  One person even tried to make me feel that X was justified in how she treated me.


I'm sorry that happened to you ReallyME.  I haven't had that experience but.... I sometimes get the feeling someone would LIKE to say it me, lol.  I've really enjoyed your posts  and am so glad you stayed: )  
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: dandylife on July 22, 2007, 03:35:20 PM
And, by the way I'd like to applaud Overcomer as she exhibited the most elegant and accepting attitude toward ALL the posters in that thread.

(((((Hands clapping)))))))

((((((Overcomer))))))))

Thanks - it was SO pleasant to see how gracious you were to everyone.

Dandylife
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 05:49:29 PM
Hi,
Dandylife, I need to address some issues with you in a kind, considerate manner.
You talk about being careful & ask for what you want when you post. Forgive me Dandylife, but when tears of rage, hurt, & fear are streaming down your face, it's HARD to know WHAT you want. That's how I was just a few short weeks ago when I found this board.
I was just trying to hold my a## on! I don't think it's fair nor reasonable to ask a newbie like me, who has held this stuff in for so long, to know how to post, or what to ask for.
As far as the intelluctual responses, I don't care if you spometimes give one of those responses! That's not the problem. I LIKE to discuss things like that. It's HOW you do it. People, just be KIND. Even if you are more "thinking" than "feeling". Don't tell me I don't have a right to my pain because it's out of pure, raw emotion & doesn't make sense. OF COURSE I DON'T MAKE SENSE! I'm just a few days into my journey!  I'm OBVIOUSLY a more emotional person. Fine! Someone said on an earlier post, that they felt they were being pick on (so to speak) because they are more intellecual. I felt the opposite from the people who rallied around the poster that hurt me, so we ALL have a different point of veiw.
And as for CH's or OC or anyone eles's wonderful & dignified way of handling this situation, well hat's off to 'em!! Sorry I can't react the same way. I might've could be there by now, if I hadn't just started my journey & was attacked for asking a question. That knda set me back!  :roll:   
You know, all this has just made me sick. I went and took a 3 hr nap after I posted my "rant", so maybe it was good for something.
I DO like the idea of a "Newbie's Corner". I need to be separated from the proverbial lions when I need to vent.
Someone else said maybe the abortion hurt should be started as a different thread. I agree, but not sure I'm up for it. That's what I realized I should've done when I was attacked, but I honestly didn't realize that's the way this forum worked & got excited with a thought from a post in THAT thread. Now, by golly, I KNOW!
I gonna try this one more time. And if you have something to say to me, please say it to me. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but sometimes I feel instead of responding to my post, a poster will address it in ANOTHER post to someone else. I:E: Oh, you've handle this in such a mature way"
If I freak you out with my emotions, tell ME, ok. Nobody will ever admit to doing that, so I don't know WHY I even brought it up.
Thanks to Sally & the ones that are just chiming in. It is awful, but I really do want to be here.
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 05:56:40 PM
I want to add to that last "rant" that if I've mixed up WHO POSTED WHAT & gotten the NAMES of the posters wrong, I appologize.
I didn't mean to do that. It's hard for me to keep up.
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: dandylife on July 22, 2007, 06:04:47 PM
bigalspal,
Sorry - you weren't on my radar!

I apologize. I was addressing the comments made re: Overcomer's post.

I will have to go back and read about what happened to you.

Just clueless!

I will post later.

Dandylife
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 22, 2007, 06:10:45 PM
Hi Bigalspal,

I don't think that I have a wonderful or dignified way of handling any situation.
All I have is what I'm able to manage at this point in my own discovery of thoughts and feelings.
I'm here to work these things through just like everyone else.

Just so you know (at least I hope you'll take my word for it)... what I've posted here on this thread has nothing to do with you or any of your posts...
it's about some feelings I have about this idea that anyone can read another person's
mind and heart and know what they need.
As I said earlier here and elsewhere on this board...
I don't even know what I need, so I'm sure not going to presume
to be able to fill the needs of others whom I hardly know.

I'm sorry that you feel attacked for having asked a question.
I was sorry about that when it first happened and I expressed that sympathy to you over on the "mental illness" thread, I think it was.
But I didn't "rally around" anyone.
Far as I can tell, I expressed equal care and concern for two posters on this board, both of whom I believed were in need of that support.

As I posted to you then, I hope that you'll continue to share your thoughts and feelings and anything else you'd like to discuss.
I meant it then, and I mean it now... dunno what else I can say to ease this for you.
I just hope this clears up any doubts you may have about my own interest in posting on this thread or any other.

With love,
Hope

P.S.  I am pretty sure that you and I each got something totally different out of Dandylife's previous post, but I don't want to confuse things further by trying to explain that now...   just please believe me that I didn't interpret her post as having anything to do with you. Thanks for listening.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 06:11:33 PM
Dandylife,
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. I thought you haad been reading the thread.
I'm looking forward to hearing from you.
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: dandylife on July 22, 2007, 06:20:47 PM
bigalspal,
I just went back through that thread and see you came in with post #69 where you mentioned the comment your mom made to you about wishing she'd aborted you.

You were responding to OC talking about an irrational act. And this is where OC said the "insane" comment, which Write then responded to.

I think you just were in the wrong place at the wrong time, bigalspal.

Write seems to be commenting on the "insane" statement and how those diagnosed as mentally ill will likely be offended at a comment like that.

Write later said that the abortion issue is a separate and difficult issue. But i'm not seeing an "attack" on you, nor would one make sense.

I'm sorry - am I missing it??? Please tell me.

Aside from all that, I'd like to say, like a few others did - that the comment your mom made was a horrendous one with diminishes you and has got to make you feel....all sorts of things. I wouldn't dream of even trying to guess how it made you feel. You have every right to those feelings of anger and hurt. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

And, the to address what I said in my earlier post about Oc's responses. I truly meant it. I remember reading through the thread as it was happening and thinking she was doing a good job of keeping to task, asking the same question over again when people went off the topic, etc. I just thought it was elegant. I wasn't commenting on anything or anyone else or their lack of elegance. I really didn't think that way.

Hope you forgive me for triggering bad feelings in you. It wasn't my intention and I hope to get to know you better.

Dandylife
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 06:25:25 PM
Hi CH,
I apologized to Dandylife. I just assumed she/he was following the thread.
CH, maybe I am being paranoid. Goodness knows I could be, I realize that!
But once you've been attacked as a newbie, it's hard to trust anybody on this board.
Can you see what I mean? I think it might be a good idea for people to use emoticons to show what emotion they are trying to post. Not a lot, but maybe a few here & there. It's so hard to get a bead on what the emotion is behind what someone was saying, if you can't see their face.
I'll tell you CH, this is EXACTLY why I think we need a "Newbies Corner".
You are very calm person, I'm not. Maybe you weren't before you got here or maybe before I started posting, but it's gonna take awhile for me to be calm. I've never had any kind of therapy, no help at all. Heck, I didn't even know what this N thing was until I found this board.
I think I just figured out why I was triggered. The poster that attacked me sounded just like my NMother scolding me! And the ones who wouldn't call him/her on it, sounded just like my family who would take her side, even tho she was dead wrong.
Wow! That's why it's so important to be kind. I know I've been upset regarding the attack, but go back & read my responses to other people's pain. You can see I'm a caring person.
Being new & being attacked, freaked me out. So, please EVERYONE, be nice to the NEWBIE!
Bigalspal
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 22, 2007, 06:25:54 PM
What I did that really helped me to deal with  the board was to find one person who I respected and PM them when I need to really vent about something happening on the board. That way, I can get a viewpoint that I trust and can better deal with the situation.
  For new members, that might help them to navigate their way when their feelings get hurt.
   I could not have made it through without this friend .                              Love   Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 06:30:05 PM
Ami,
Good advice! I wish I would've just PM my friend when I felt I was attacked. Maybe I could've gotten a better perspective on this.  :)
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 06:52:12 PM
Hi Dandylife,
I just read your post & I thought about it & yes I KINDA think I was being attacked.
The poster (Write) was very, shall we say, snippy at the very least. That hurt. I'm new and that was the LAST thing I needed. I apologized directly to her, but she has not to me. That hurts, too.
I realize people need to "say their piece" or whatever, but at the expense of others?
Isn't that what we put up with from our N partners/family?
I would never dream of doing that.
I had rose colored glasses on when I got to this board.
I know we are all human, but we ALL have been through hurt & dismissal of our thoughts & ideas.
WHY, would we want to do it on this board?
Maybe others might think "give her time, she'll do it too". Lord, I hope not.
Stating ones opinion does not have to be at anyone's expense. 'Saying one's piece" can be done in a nice way. I really do think that the Newbie & the Oldtimer are in very different places.
That's not a bad thing, it's a REAL thing.
Bigalspal   
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 06:55:16 PM
So, please EVERYONE, be nice to the NEWBIE!
Bigalspal
 

::Offering Bigaslpal Chocolate and a hug::.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 07:07:17 PM
Thanks Lighter!
I LOVE chocolate!  :lol:
The HUGS, I'm working on. As most of you might have went through, My NMother did not hug. I remember the first time we hugged.
I was an adult & I reached out to put my arms around her & she stayed stiff as a board.
It was really freaky in a way. I've hugged people I really didn't care for, but I could fake it.
Not her. She was sooo stiff!
So, the only person I'm comfortable with is my husband. He's a big teddy bear kinda guy. He WILL hug you. Oh, he's furry like one, too! Some women don't like that, but I love it. He's so warm.
I remember (I hope I wasn't supposed to start a NEW THREAD?)  :oops: him telling me I wasn't very nurturing when he's sick. I thought about it & he was right. My NMother was not patient (no pun intended) when you were sick. Enter the "get over it" trigger).
I really have tried hard to change that. I remember just toughing it out at school, because I KNEW my NMother would NOT come and get me from the nurses office unless forced to..
You really do pactice what you learn.
I should add I LOVED to hug my kids & grandbabies when they were young, but they are too old for that now.  :( But I sure took advantage of it when they were younger! Kisses & Hugs abounded.
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 22, 2007, 07:15:13 PM
Hi again, Bigalspal,

I understand and I do see what you mean, yes.

Also, I agree completely with Dandylife's assessment of what happened on that other thread.
It seemed to me a matter of being "in the wrong place at the wrong time" = a misunderstanding.

That is bound to happen here in this environment where we can't see each other's body language or facial expressions.

About the emoticons... I used to use them all the time. I kinda saw that as one aspect of my people-pleasing/gotta make everybody like me
attitude. There is a point, I've seen, where an awful lotta vinegar hides behind those smiley faces, so I try not to use them unless I'm actually
smiling while I type. I'm not smiling now.... I'm working really hard to understand and to be understood.

About the Newbies Corner idea...
I have to say that if I had not experienced these sort of misunderstandings and done the work it takes to get beyond them,
well...I'm just not sure any of us would grow beyond the newbie phase without this sort of exposure. From what I've seen and experienced here on this board,
the majority of posters go above and beyond the call of duty to welcome each newcomer and make that person feel welcome.
But there's no guarantee that these things won't happen...misunderstandings, I mean. In fact, I'd say that they're even more likely
if we tried to segregate newcomers into a special safety zone, apart from the rest of the group.
This place works, just as it is, in my opinion.

And Bigalspal, I am not a calm person by nature :)  Yes, I really smiled.   
You're talking with a woman who once punched a hole through a dashboard with her high-heeled shoe.
And I hold no expectations of you to be calm... no demands... no offense from me if you're not calm.
Okay?  I realize that you need to be right where you are in order to take the steps to get where you're going.

I understand what you've written about the situation that triggered you.
Being scolded can have that same effect on me, too! Whether I let it show or not, it's there.
The thing is, I know that sometimes I hear scolding where there is none... and knowing that, I can hold off and
not react... because I might have interpreted the thing as "scolding" and taken it personally when it was
just another individual expressing whatever he/she had on his heart.
It takes practice to step outside of it all when emotions are raging.
I don't expect anyone else to be at that place just because I'm finally getting the dawning of that realization.
It wasn't long ago that I'd crawl back into my shell at the slightest hint of any conflict.
Like I said, everybody's different... and we each walk through this at our own pace.

I'll sure try to match step with you through this, Bigalspal.
And I don't think a bit less of you for having expressed yourself here however you needed to at this time.
That's from my heart :)

Love,
Hope
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 07:27:34 PM
Hi CH,
I guess I feel I need to say this again.
I believe she WAS scolding me. I don't believe I should or can back down from this one.
I know you are just trying to help. :)
But, it really was out of line. I guess I'm done with accepting someone else's blame.
About the emoticons. You are right. Just because I use them to express what I'm feeling, does not mean someone else will. It's like that old 70's song "Smiling Faces". They might use them in a very nasty way.
And I'll argue another point regarding my idea of a Newbie Corner.
When I first came here, I didn't NEED that kind of confrontation to move ahead. All it did was hurt me. It did not make me stronger. Then the hurt turned to anger! That's not good because then emotions really do take over. So, no, I don't agree with you on that one. But, that's OK cause they way we are communicating about this is very healthy for me, as a Newbie. I don't feel like you are hurting or scolding me in anyway. I really appreciate that. But when an oldtimer gets SNIPPY, that's not gonna be taken very well be someone who is too new to understand what is going on. This idea might never come to fruition, (Newbie Corner), but just maybe an oldtimer & a Newbie can get off on better footing.
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 22, 2007, 07:59:21 PM
Hi Bigalspal,

Thank you.
I'm very glad that you know I'm not trying to hurt or scold you in anyway :) and it's fine with me that we agree to disagree.

I need to add (and I hope that you don't take offense - but I'm going to say it anyway, because I'd feel derelict not to)...
I believe that everyone has the capacity to get snippy.
I'm not saying that anyone did in this instance.
I'm only saying that I feel it's to be expected from time to time that people - "old" and "new" alike - will have moments which will rub others of us the wrong way. If we don't make allowances for other people to be the frail and faulty human beings they are, there will be no end to our hurts and disappointments. There are no experts here.

With love,
Hope

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 07:59:48 PM

I think to ask posters to post in a certain way is creating an atmosphere built on control and a BPD-esque "you should know what I'm thinking".

Celebrate differences, celebrate opionions.

This is what we live for as humans who relate to each other as communicators.

When someone floats a thought on the board, it's asking, pleading for other thoughts to be shared.

That's exactly why we're here, right?

Dandylife

I don't think you're the first one to share this with us but..... I'll chime in and say......

 Hear, hear, Dandylife
.

I depend on receiving different views from this board.  It's a bit like having cabinet members, really, lol.  

If I want a particular type of opinion, I can ask a particular poster for their input.  

I know who's likely to post warm and fuzzy, and who's not, lets face it.

Everyone has their strengths and lately..... I've needed intellectual strategies and facts.  

It wouldn't be productive if everyone I depend on to be pragmatic, all  the sudden stopped posting pragmatic and went all warm and fuzzy on me: /

I may not always like what I hear, but I certainly can respect someone's honesty (if they take the time to share it.)  

I can always take what I want and leave the rest.  No poster's feelings are any more important here than another's..... or at least they shouldn't be?

I've got no problem with a poster asking another poster to please stop posting to them, either.

Seems reasonable enough.  

Sometimes people just don't click or they're message isn't what the other needs to hear?

I would, however, think it a bit odd if they continued to post their 'honest' opinion without the expectation they would responded to with honesty, in kind, lol.  

::Jumping off here::.... sorry it's in response to your post,  Dandylife.  Nothing to do with you..... I think, lol.    

I'm not sure who posted about 'the mean people hurting people' on the board.  Something like that.

I'm afraid I can't keep up with exactly who said what with so many things going on with this thread.  

I can't make heads or tails of who the meanies are supposed to be and who's the victims are and in what time frame, with respect to old disputes/misunderstandings and current ones and on which threads.  Sorry :shock:.  

I don't read every post on the threads I post on, to add more confusion on my part.

Any poster who feels they need to point out behavior they dislike may feel free to receive honesty in return, or choose to stop posting with a poster as an alternative, IMO.  

There are no rules that everyone must get along at all times.  

I've worked through HUGE personality clashes and triggers with posters I perceived to be the 'meanies' on other boards.  

I gotta admit, it was 4 years before we could get along but we mostly left each other alone between clashes but.....we eventaully stopped judging one another.  

It wasn't that we didn't agree with each other, so much, we simply disliked each others deliveries and I certainly questioned her motives, (which seemed to be hurting newbies and driving them away about 6 posts into their first thread :shock:.)  

Ticked me off.  

You can imagine I said so, lol.  

Ad nauseum.

Through those struggles we came to  admit we shared beliefs.... became more tolerant of each others wounds and triggers.  

My ignorance and idealism stopped leading me.  

Her abusive childhood trauma stopped ruling her (and driving away newbies.)  

I learned from her far superior experience and knowledge.... despite her offensive delivery.  

Maybe bc of it, in part.  

Certainly got my attention, lol.  

This is a support board.  

There should be no debates.  

Discussions should rule but.... one man's discussion is another man's attack, in my experience.  




Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 08:08:54 PM
I want to add to that last "rant" that if I've mixed up WHO POSTED WHAT & gotten the NAMES of the posters wrong, I appologize.
I didn't mean to do that. It's hard for me to keep up.
Bigalspal


Honestly.... I think you're doing surprisingly well.  I still don't have everyone straight Pal, lol. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on July 22, 2007, 08:23:51 PM
Dandylife,

The "you should know what I'm thinking" is not only BPD but also an NPD trait.  It's also stated as "you should always be one step ahead of me!"  or "if you really loved me, you would have KNOWN I don't like ______"

Quote
BG-  Don't lecture me. LISTEN to me. If a need a lecture, I have my NMother's phone number.
Bigalspal


This made me smile.  That is sooooooo right!
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 08:32:10 PM

. But when an oldtimer gets SNIPPY, that's not gonna be taken very well by someone who is too new to understand what is going on. This idea might never come to fruition, (Newbie Corner), but just maybe an oldtimer & a Newbie can get off on better footing.
Love,
Bigalspal



::raising hand::

I don't have a problem with a newbie corner, bigalspal.

When I first came here I wanted so badly to ask someone who everyone was and what the board dynamics were. 

A newbie corner won't help you figure that out but..... if it helps..... why not?
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 08:50:28 PM
Hi Ch & Others,
I guess CH, I'm not there yet. That's why I cannot relate to the "snippiness" of someones tone. I don't expect I will EVER be there. I guess we'll have to disagree on that one.
I am however, old enough to know there will be confict. I believe i've stated than over & over again. Confict is to be expected. BUT, I did not engage this person. I even aplogized for apologizing earlier! I can see where this is getting me nowhere! *pulling out hair*.
I don't see why you & some of the others on this board  don't get this. And I know you don't understand why I won't get it either.
Other people have stated very clearly that they feel like they've been attacked, too & didn't like it.
It can't just be ME!
Ok, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna start a new thread with that old topic, & see if I can get the answers I was looking for in the first place. (At least I will as soon as I get off the phone with my husband) I'll try to post in a kind & thought provoking manner, if you will.
How about it? I'll see you on another topic as soon as I can!
Love,
Bigalspal
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 09:25:23 PM
Hi Lighter,
Thanks for the reply about the Newbie Corner. I'm not sure if it'll ever happen, but it's something to think about!
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 22, 2007, 10:22:49 PM
See you "over there" Bigalspal  :)

Say, is it okay if I call you "Pal"? 

Love,
Hope
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 22, 2007, 10:59:26 PM
Hi Pal,

Is it okay if I ask you to ponder something...I hope it helps, I don't want to stir the pot...this is meant as a gentle question:

If you think about the notion of someone being "snippy" , and then you think about the word attack -- do they seem like they match? Like...if they were weights in your hands, would they weigh the same?

I think you had a strong triggered feeling when you felt "corrected". Does that go waaaay back? (By the way, I can so relate to hugging cardboard cutouts...my NMom literally stands there, arms stiff at her sides, whenever I put my arms around her). Anyway, I just want to say that from being around a while, I know Write has had a tough time with her bipolar illness at times. She manages it so very well but it can be disabling. And she's just now had an episode, and a very recent divorce and move to handle. For her, the phrase "mental illness" is triggering too. My guess is when she was abrupt in that post, it had nothing to do with you...just her own trigger--that resonates with her life as much as feeling "lectured" resonates with you.

I don't know about you, but I'm often not "in the moment" enough to catch on that things I respond with great heat and hurt to, are often not about me at all. I was just thinking, maybe weighing the words, and knowing a little more about the context, might be helpful. If not, feel free to ignore me! I promise not to take it personally.

Meanwhile, if I'm beating a dead horse into dogfood, forgive me. I like you and am delighted you are here with us! You are an ebullient interesting woman and I am enjoying getting to know you. Everybody hits "off notes" now and then, but I truly believe that as a group, as a community, we try hard to be good to each other.

Knowing that about the overall intention is good enough for me. I have faith in this board as a healing, growing, amazing place (warts and mistakes and all)--I hope in time you will too.

Is your hubby on the road this weekend?

love
Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 22, 2007, 11:28:28 PM
Hops.... that was such a good post.  I couldn't have said it better. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 22, 2007, 11:40:16 PM
Hi Hops,
I guess I'm not sure what I feel right now. At first, I guess (no, I know) I felt attacked.
Then after I was able to find my voice & started fighting back (I hate to put it like that), then it wasn't so scary anymore. It became a lot easier to realize it was just Write being snippy.
I was just horrified & felt responsible for a lot of possible new posters being hurt by what I had said.
Remember, she ended her post with something like this: "I'm worried about the new people stumbling across these topics & being hurt by them." I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the energy to cut & paste her post. Boy, that was a lot to put on my shoulders. I was one of the ones that started the NEW ball rolling. I honestly did not feel I was going to hurt anybody.
When she suggested It might, I just lost it. That was not fair to do that to me.
So, I guess I went through a lot of different stages. Grief, Fear, Shame, & then Anger.
Write might have issues, but it still does not give her the right to give me a mantle of shame I did not earn.  That's a HUGE trigger for me-Shame. I haven't grown enough to handle that well.
I guess when you are new, you think that the others on the board might be a little further along than you. I say that with kindness. I'm not trying to be glib. That's honestly what I thought.
I guess I was just surprised.
I hope I can learn from this & grow. My husband always tell me I'm too trusting. That I always expect the best first & then I get hurt. How in the world I got too trusting with strangers is beyond me. All that I can come up with is that CLOSE family members were not to be trusted, so I guess I think strangers might be better. I honestly don't know.
So, I guess I better get to bed. I have an early pre-surgery Dr.'s appt. tomorrow.
I hope everyone gets a good night's sleep!
Oh, yep, you can call me "Pal". I think it's great!
Love,
Bigalspal
  
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 23, 2007, 04:10:13 AM
hops, thanks for responding to my confession - that I had been deeply hurt here, for offering your apology and understanding.

it means a lot and I appreciate it.

Bigalspal, I can really understand where you're coming from and I'm glad I was able to give voice to your pain.

Ami, I agree with you -- I think some people are just mean.  Why that is can be speculated on.

My opinion is that they are removed from their own feelings so that they don't realize when they've hurt another.

or they just don't care.

some of us  - myself included, learned how to be mean from our parents and don't know any better.

i'm not saying that's the case all the time here but it is some of the times.

I had to learn how NOT to be mean.  that meant coming in contact with feelings that i would rather have avoided.

i also had to learn how to hear another person when they were saying "ouch" -- even if my own ears were smarting.

i also had to learn how to not deal with those people who were hurtful.  especially if they couldn't hear me say ouch. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 23, 2007, 04:15:45 AM
oh, I also had to learn to read between the lies. 

I had to learn to watch what people were actually doing and stop paying attention to what they say they were doing.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 23, 2007, 07:43:26 AM
Guest101,
Once again, you have articulated exactly what I could not.
Thank you.
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on July 23, 2007, 08:39:37 AM
Quote
guest101 i also had to learn how to not deal with those people who were hurtful.  especially if they couldn't hear me say ouch. 


This statement had me pondering.  Sometimes I think, the N's in our lives, have even said "ouch" in order to gain our sympathies and have us right back under their control.  That might be why, some on here, even when the other is screaming "ouch," have learned to IGNORE it and go on with their lives.

Just a thought, not directed at any 1 person.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 23, 2007, 08:53:45 AM
Hi Reallyme,
I totally agree with you. In fact, it became crystal clear. The ones that will not except the fact that I felt I was being attacked, snipped at, WHATEVER you want to call it & keep "gaslighting" me, trying to make me see it their way, are reacting to their upbringing just like ME.
The more I applogized, the more sympathy I got, but the more I stood up for myself the more I got "Bigalspal, are you SURE you seeing this the RIGHT way? I just don't SEE it that way".
I don't care how YOU saw it. You can state that. That's your right. I respect that. But don't keep on & on trying to convince me I was WRONG.
It SO like what I grew up with.
Before you go there (anyone reading this), & say you LOVED it when people were taking YOUR side. OF COURSE I did! YOU DID TOO!
EVERYONE wants validation. EVERYONE.
So, I see this a HUGE lesson for ME. Maybe not YOU.
I need to trust my own feelings. Believe me that's HARD.
Isn't this board called. VOICELESSNESS?
Because that's what THEY did to us?
I want my voice!
Love,
Bigalspal
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on July 23, 2007, 11:53:45 AM
BGPal,

I have to be honest with ya.  I tend to be very OPINIONATED, so I've been told and agree.  I have to work very hard to not force my "truth" on other people, because I believe that it is the ONLY TRUTH there is, and I DO. 

I have learned that, in this world, there are people of varying beliefs, and, if I don't want to be harmed or killed, I best leave them to those beliefs.  We live in a world with some rough characters, and we sometimes need to let "sleeping dogs lie" as the saying goes.  I do what I can to share what I know and stand firm on, but if someone isn't interested, I let them do their thing.

The people that seem to grate on your nerves, are those who insist that you "see it their way" because you choose to see it YOUR way...I see nothing wrong with you choosing that or me choosing something else...but, I dare say, I do at least consider what other people say as having some possible validity.  That does not mean I have to do what they do...again, you, I , others all are allowed to have our CHOICE in things.  If someone tries to take that away from us, it is indeed an attempt to render us VOICELESS.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 23, 2007, 11:58:05 AM
Bigalspal, I can really understand where you're coming from and I'm glad I was able to give voice to your pain.

Ami, I agree with you -- I think some people are just mean.  Why that is can be speculated on.

My opinion is that they are removed from their own feelings so that they don't realize when they've hurt another.

or they just don't care.

some of us  - myself included, learned how to be mean from our parents and don't know any better.

I'm not saying that's the case all the time here but it is some of the times.

I had to learn how NOT to be mean.  that meant coming in contact with feelings that i would rather have avoided.

i also had to learn how to hear another person when they were saying "ouch" -- even if my own ears were smarting.

i also had to learn how to not deal with those people who were hurtful.  especially if they couldn't hear me say ouch. 




Dear Guest,
   This(above) is a prescription for life. You outlined how to walk through this world and be emotionally healthy. The board is a "mini" world. There are characters,like in the video games, who are trying to derail you. There are helpful friends trying to coax you on,
  We have to find our core and learn how to deal with the derailing influences,. I think that "normal" people have already learned this lesson. Maybe, the difference between us and "normal" people is that we have not learned the life lessons
  Guest-- please keep posting. You have acquired a lot of wisdom. I really love your voice
   Bigals pal------ you have found your reason to be here- to find your precious,lost voice.                                             Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 23, 2007, 12:08:59 PM
oh, I also had to learn to read between the lies. 

I had to learn to watch what people were actually doing and stop paying attention to what they say they were doing.


Amen to listening to what people DO, and nopt what they SAY.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on July 23, 2007, 12:39:00 PM
Ami,

That was a good description of this board...like a video game.  The other thing I'd like to add on, if I may, is that we need to keep in mind the nature of this board.  ANYONE and I mean ANYONE can find this place.  It is on the world wide web...even the comments we speak on here can be read by browsing.

Therefore, the dysfunctional people in our life, may even have found this board and be posting to us in hidden names.

I happen to almost KNOW that X reads what I write, through the people she sends "in" to spy.  Do I care?  Nope.  Let her read the truth about what she did, OVER AND OVER again till it really sinks in and maybe, just maybe, she starts to FEEL a teency bit of empathy or something about it all.  If it bothers her that I'm using exact situations without using her name, well, she has a right to come on here and tell her side of things...she already had one of her groupies do that a while ago, named WOW.

I never have really met any of her close friends, except one.  that one, X admitted to me, she does NOT open up and tell everything to.  X doesn't have the capacity or desire to be intimately close with anyone anyway.

Ok..feeling like I'm going off on a tangent, so I'm going to hush and let ya'll respond or whatever :)(
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 23, 2007, 02:19:51 PM
everything written on this page, imo, is so helpful and honest.

i would just like to add on others and for those who are not spiritual, please forgive me.


as I became more in tune with my own feelings, recognizing when I was deceiving MYSELF I became able to discern those who were also in the practice of self-deception. 

even here, on line. my spirit is moved by dishonesty and ill-intentions. 

RMs admonition that ANYONE can post here is so important.  Anyone, with any intentions, at any stage of their life, in any frame of mind.


my awareness came about by

1) taking time in my relationships -- not jumping head long into them

2) having an honest relationship with God (listening to my spirit , trusting it -- silencing the voice of my parents who told me I didn't know what I was talking about it.  some people call it their conscious - I am lead by your spirit).

3) watching other peoples behavior, even when their words to cover up their actions totally contradict what they say their intentions are.  it will always be a patten.  some people so want to believe that they are "good" they can't see the harm that they do IMO, that's because they still believe people there are all good and all bad people.  they don't get that we all do "bad" things now and then.

what separates us from the narcissist - our conscious, our ability to self-reflect, to be accountable?

I can actually <b>feel </b>how sincere a person is and if their heart is in the right place or if they mean me harm.    I note this feeling, watch and listen.



I firmly believe that just as our radar goes up when we come in contact with those who mean us harm, THEIR radar comes up, too. she is too honest, it might say or she points to a flaw I don't want to see, it might whisper or she might pull of my mask, it might warn, I need to discredit her.  you find yourself under attack and spiritually, subconsciously, that is what is going on.

this happens to me, too.  but I have learned to listen to that voice, to sit with the discomfort.  I've escaped the shame.  I can look at myself under the mask and say, "ah, I need to change that."

some people cannot do that.  and to avoid doing that they WILL hurt others.

and it IS dangerous to tangle with the wrong people, those type of people.

all of us have learned this.

our very souls are in jeopardy.

when two people hurt each other but there is accountability and understanding, sharing, a reaching out healing comes about -- it is beautiful and powerful.

but when there are ill-intentions, masks, deceit, lack of accountability, understanding and sharing, closed off parts of ourselves in operation it can be devastating, leaving a person at the brink of despair, feeling unloved, betrayed, attacked and labelled. 

it is a spiritual attack, I believe, one that we can scarcely recover from.

when I am emotional, I can hardly form a coherent sentence.  my mind is not working properly.  my heart is racing.  my tongue is tied and I can't think straight. 

it is trauma, revisited.

just as many of us experienced in our childhoods and again in our marriages/relationships
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 23, 2007, 02:24:18 PM
Hi Reallyme, Ami & lighter,
I just got back from my pre-surgery blood work. Yuck!
Anyway, Reallyme, I know what you mean about our x's our N family members seeing what we post.
I would have a heart attack if my NMother saw all of this!
She would be making those telephone wires hum.
And it wouldn't do any good for her to read this. To her it's just fiction.
KWIM?
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 23, 2007, 02:27:05 PM
Dear Guest,
   That was  powerful and profound. The only way to learn that would be tremendous pain and tremendous introspection., I would think.
   If we don't know these lessons ,we are doomed to a poor quality of life.
  I did not know these lessons,until now,. My life simply did not work. I was sick and defeated,.
                                                                                                               Love   Ami
   P.S    Bigalspal- what does KWIM     mean?
 
   
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 23, 2007, 02:32:35 PM
Hi friends,
If you looked at my last post you can see it has NOTHING to do with the topic.  :oops:
I meant to post it on Reallyme's thread about Hijacking threads. Looks like I just did it!
All I can say is I'm getting really old!
Sorry guys!
Love,
Bigalspal
Ps: I just went back & looked & I MIGHT have this on the right topic after all.
I'm soooo confused.
I do have an excuse tho, my kid called me to see how dr's. appt went. I guess I can't walk & chew gum at the same time.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on July 23, 2007, 02:37:18 PM
I also want to suggest that a person's individual temperament has a LOT to do with if they are chosen by a narcissist, borderline, or other dysfunctional being.

If you are mostly sanguine, that means you tend to see everything in life as a laughing matter, fun, humorous...and you pretty much do things in a fun, enjoyable way.  With the sanguine friend in our original group, X didn't seem to really CONNECT.  X preferred staying in a constant state of depression or cynicism.

If you are mostly the phlegmatic type, this means you are laid back, peace at any price, non-committal for the most part...just "everyone try to get along"...X handled the Phleg of our group, very RELUCTANTLY, and constantly tried to make Phleg more like her, which, in her opinion, was taking way too long, so she eventually moved on to a more worthy target.

If you are mostly melancholy, YOU ARE THE PERFECT PREY TO A NARCISSIST!...you are emotional, unsure at times, you tend to doubt yourself and flip flop back and forth, you tend to want to be perfect and beat yourself up when you aren't.  You get caught up in the moment of things, so you don't usually finish what you begin.  X handled the Melancholy friend as her SERVANT/SLAVE for the most part...promised her the sun,moon and stars, but then began beating Melancholy down with critical words.  N's LOVE melancholy prey, because they are "moldable" and tend to be looking for someone to "lead" them and "direct" them.  (in my estimation, the majority of Codependents, tend to be mostly MELANCHOLIES...though not ALL of them are)

If you are mostly CHOLERIC, you are DRIVEN, goal-focused rather than people-focused, and you GET THE JOB DONE.  You tend to not like working with others, because you feel you can zero in on things and get them done, but you don't pay enough attention to details, so sometimes what you have done is not stable either.  N's will sometimes hook up with Cholerics, because they tend to not show their emotions and see emotional people as somewhat WEAK.  X hooked up with me, who, having just come out of a relationship with a BPD, was, by appearances, seeking a "leader" in my life.  We immediately clicked, she showered me with gifts, told me I was her one and only that understood her, introduced me to her family and some "friends" and soon after, decided I was NOT heeding her, not complying, and daring to OPPOSE her ways...therefore, the devaluation process began, I was discarded, replaced and demeaned and she moved on to victim next.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 23, 2007, 03:00:57 PM
Hi Again, Reallyme,
I looked at your personality types & tried to figure out which one is me, & I think I'm a mixture of all of them except the  Phlegmatic type.
I really am NOT laid back. (you wouldn't of guess than, now would you?  8)
I certainly was a target. There's no doubt about that. NMother was 16, & I "ruined her life"
No, I've learned on this board, she was projecting. SHE ruined her life.
You mentioned that your X picked you until you had an opinion.
How are you NOW, AFTER that experience?
Hope you don't mind me asking?
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: moonlight52 on July 23, 2007, 03:21:33 PM
Laura

Your descriptions are great and absolutely true keeping a sense of humor is a great way to keep self in the comfort zone.
And I believe laughter and compassion places self in protection without doing harm.
I like to remember the Four Agreements by M. Ruiz These are agreements to make with ourselves.

1. Be impeccable with your word-Speak with integrity Say only what you mean.Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

2.Don't take anything personally-Nothing others do is because of you.What others say and do is a projection of their own reality.When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others,you will not be the victim of needless suffering.

3.Don't make assumptions-Find the courage to ask questions and express what you really want.Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama.With just this one agreement ,you can completely transform your life.

4.Always do your best-Your best is going to change from moment to moment ; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick.Under any circumstance, simply do your best and you will avoid self judgment,self abuse and regret.

The board has had a thread on the four agreements I like to go back and reread them and try and do my best I do not always succeed but I am trying.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 23, 2007, 04:59:45 PM
Oh yark, I'm melancholy.  :(  Dang.

Does a melancholic in denial turn into a sanguine?
I'm giving it a hearty try.

 :P

love
Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on July 23, 2007, 05:50:27 PM
WOW MOON, guess what?  My therapist recommended a book to me today...THE 4 AGREEMENTS!  If it's not a GOD thing that you just mentioned that book again, I don't know what is!

BG Pal, I'm doing fine after the X went to her next supply sources.  It helps to have this board to talk on though, more than ya might know yet!  It helps to have my spiritual mom, papa and Aunts too.  God is good and still on the throne in my life.  I only pray that X will one day realize that the "god" she portrayed to me...one of non-understandable mysticism that only the "elite" could grasp, the "god" who was never fully satisfied with her or me, the "god" who was "out to git" people...is NOT TRULY GOD!

~Laura
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 23, 2007, 05:59:49 PM
Hi Laura,
I'm so glad you are doing well.
May I ask another question?
Do you have a really loving mother? Is she the one you call your spritual mother?
I guess I'm curious because of what I went through with my mom.
If you do/did have a loving mother, did you find that it made it easier to heal from the pain your x caused you?
You just sound like you are in such a good place about this.
Sorry I'm so nosy!
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: moonlight52 on July 23, 2007, 10:03:34 PM
Laura ,

I love it my T just suggested this book a couple of weeks ago ,but I first heard about the book the four agreements on the board.
I got a copy just by chance from a friend that let me borrow their copy.
RM you Know I think it is a GOD thing....

Love to you,
moon :D
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Sela on July 24, 2007, 12:42:47 AM
Hi everyone,

Been reading through this thread and so many people's words hit home ....this in particular:

Guest101 wrote:

Quote
I firmly believe that just as our radar goes up when we come in contact with those who mean us harm

I wish I could say I've learned this but so far, I'm not so sure.  Sometimes, I think I have a kind of hyper-radar and I misjudge those who really mean no harm at all (thinking they do mean me harm) and other times, I trust too much and don't see that someone is intent on harming me, until the harm is well on it's way.  :?   I feel like I'm losing confidence in this area, like I should be learning but for some reason....I'm not getting better at it.  I guess I just have to keep trying to learn?

Quote
when two people hurt each other but there is accountability and understanding, sharing, a reaching out healing comes about -- it is beautiful and powerful

I love it when that happens!  :D

Quote
......but when there are ill-intentions, masks, deceit, lack of accountability, understanding and sharing, closed off parts of ourselves in operation it can be devastating, leaving a person at the brink of despair, feeling unloved, betrayed, attacked and labelled.


This is so accurate, the way you put this, Guest.  It's exactly what has also happened and how I have felt.  I would only add that it occurs very insidiously and maybe that's why I don't pick up on it easily?

Quote
it is trauma, revisited.

Sure is.  Thanks for putting all that into words so clearly, Guest.



About the original topic of this thread......intellectual vs emotional responses:

For me, I think I appreciate both.  Often, an emotional response feels good and helps but so does some clear thinking and intellectual input.   I haven't paid as much attention to this as I could so I will try harder to do that but I'm not sure I'll be able to tell what any person really wants or needs (or even that I'll be in the right state to offer the right thing).  I'm content to receive either/or because I really believe anyone who bothers to post....is trying to share and often help, which I find very touching.

I do get how a person's feelings might feel discounted or dismissed by a post that simply does not even acknowledge them.  We do all need validation, I believe.  On the other hand, none of us are perfect and if one forgets, I've noticed that usually another will come along and remember.  Thankyou all for doing that!

Sela
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 24, 2007, 01:01:16 AM
Sela,
You are a person with a wide embrace who reaches out to the forgotten and is concerned about understanding what someone may need or be asking for. You are exactly one of the reasons that I first was moved, and then amazed, and then thrilled by, and then inspired, by this board.

Thank you, sweetie.

love
Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Sela on July 24, 2007, 09:08:26 AM


Hops,  :oops: :oops: :oops:....too much!  Thankyou.  That's overly kind. Totally.

I'm so glad you stayed though.  I'm so glad you're here!  (not for your pain and what you've been through and are going through, ofcourse.....just that it's wonderful to read your kind posts and know you are here, always ready to offer support to so many people).    Thankyou so much Hops, for taking the time and bothering.

Sela
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 24, 2007, 07:26:47 PM
Yes Hops, Thank you .Yorkie is coming along .BTW.                                 Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 24, 2007, 10:04:09 PM
Quote
Sometimes, I think I have a kind of hyper-radar and I misjudge those who really mean no harm at all (thinking they do mean me harm) and other times, I trust too much and don't see that someone is intent on harming me, until the harm is well on it's way.  Confused   I feel like I'm losing confidence in this area, like I should be learning but for some reason....I'm not getting better at it.  I guess I just have to keep trying to learn?

Sela, I think your radar is working just fine.  I think it's just that you've been trained badly.  You notice these people, are attracted to them - I think it's because you're trying to relearn what you didn't get in childhood -- that is who NOT to trust and who to trust.  You learn this through trial and error.  Some of us though, instead of learning the lesson and moving on get stuck looking forlornly at our grade paper and try desperately to change the grade.   :shock: for years.  myself included.

I learned from making the same mistake over and over and over and over and over again.  I learned to listen to my senses, my gut  and to trust my eyes and my thoughts but to CHANGE my responses.

Quote
Quote
......but when there are ill-intentions, masks, deceit, lack of accountability, understanding and sharing, closed off parts of ourselves in operation it can be devastating, leaving a person at the brink of despair, feeling unloved, betrayed, attacked and labelled.end Quote



This is so accurate, the way you put this, Guest.  It's exactly what has also happened and how I have felt.  I would only add that it occurs very insidiously and maybe that's why I don't pick up on it easily?

Quote
it is trauma, revisited. end Quote


Sure is.  Thanks for putting all that into words so clearly, Guest.

I think it's BECAUSE it is insidious that we are traumatize.  if it was honest and straight forward we'd probably get the hell out of dodge but no, we're coaxed to stay there and take more and more all while the person is trying to convince us that they're really a great wonderful person.


 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 24, 2007, 10:39:36 PM
Hi Guest101,
You said this:



I think it's BECAUSE it is insidious that we are traumatize.  if it was honest and straight forward we'd probably get the hell out of dodge but no, we're coaxed to stay there and take more and more all while the person is trying to convince us that they're really a great wonderful person.



That is my downfall. I keep giving people chance after chance. Even after I've been warned & the cold, hard facts are staring me in the face.
Why do you think I do that? My husband says it's because I have a soft heart & don't want to hurt anybody the way I've been hurt, so I give 2nd & 3rd & 100,0000 chances.
What do you think?
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 24, 2007, 10:45:21 PM
hi pal,

this is what I think:

trial and error:  you're learning who NOT to trust, but the way you're doing it doesn't make sense because it's emotional.  you might KNOW in your head that these people are trustworthy but you don't FEEL that way, you so want them to be different, to be loving.

for me it wasn't until I got:

that they couldn't be loving

that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing

that they were danger

that it was NOT my fault that they were the way they were

that I could NOT change them

that I so much WANTED them to be different

that is HURT HURT HURT --

it wasn't until I could feel all these feelings that I could release the lesson.

I think human beings are made in such a way that much of what is going on for us is going on spiritually and emotionally, under the surface.

we try to understand and make sense of things, but that is only half the battle.

the worst part -- the part we all avoid, myself included, is FEELING it.

that is what we distract ourselves from, but because it is what is necessary, I believe we just keep orchestrating the same events over and over so we can feel it and heal.

hope some of this resonates with you -- you seem to have a great big heart!
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 24, 2007, 10:47:18 PM
pal, I wrote :
Quote
you know that they're trustworthy
-- I meant you know they're NOT trustworthy.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 24, 2007, 10:53:18 PM
Guest101,
Thanks!
That made a lot of sense. I am getting better as I get older.
I try really hard to see what's under the mask.
I guess I always rely on-I'm not going to hurt YOU, so you must be feeling the same way, right?
That is a childish way of thinking.
I want to stop that. I have to get a better radar for such things instead of runny around screaming
"Love me, Anybody, PLEASE!"
Like I said in another thread, I'm stuck emotionally at 2 yrs old.
I want to be at least 5!  :lol:
Love,
Bigalspal
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: bigalspal on July 24, 2007, 10:55:04 PM
You're right Guest, I did mean that!  :oops:
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 25, 2007, 12:55:21 AM
hi pal,

this is what I think:

trial and error:  you're learning who NOT to trust, but the way you're doing it doesn't make sense because it's emotional.  you might KNOW in your head that these people are trustworthy but you don't FEEL that way, you so want them to be different, to be loving.

for me it wasn't until I got:

that they couldn't be loving

that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing

that they were danger

that it was NOT my fault that they were the way they were

that I could NOT change them

that I so much WANTED them to be different

that is HURT HURT HURT --

it wasn't until I could feel all these feelings that I could release the lesson.

I think human beings are made in such a way that much of what is going on for us is going on spiritually and emotionally, under the surface.

we try to understand and make sense of things, but that is only half the battle.

the worst part -- the part we all avoid, myself included, is FEELING it.

that is what we distract ourselves from, but because it is what is necessary, I believe we just keep orchestrating the same events over and over so we can feel it and heal.

hope some of this resonates with you -- you seem to have a great big heart!

This post sure resonated with me, Guest. 

Bears repeating. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 25, 2007, 01:27:13 AM
Quote
you're learning who NOT to trust, but the way you're doing it doesn't make sense because it's emotional.  you might KNOW in your head that these people are trustworthy but you don't FEEL that way, you so want them to be different, to be loving.

Guest, you're right, you're right!

And I think one key is that it's OLD EMOTION. It's not not not present feeling in response to present reality.
It's OOOOOOOLD yearning and wishing and unfulfilled needs for affection from waaaaay back thennnnnn.

We're lugging around OLD emotion that's so big it covers the lens of our hearts and we confuse our SINCERITY of feeling with ACCURACY and APPROPRIATENESS of feeling!

Sorry for the "we"--I do mean me...and all the caps. That's not yelling, it's enthusiasm.

Thanks for a post that really triggered a big thought for me. I didn't know there was such a thing as "old" emotion in the now.
But there is.

And I think if I ask myself, am I feeling something old, or am I here NOW, responding in health and in sanity to NOW...

that would be good.

Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 25, 2007, 01:33:12 AM
I also think, for me, it is a big thought that
we (me) can confuse our sincerity of feeling
(it's so strong and intense and real it must be telling me something true...)

with accuracy of emotional knowledge.

I think not so. I think our my own sincerity can be confused
with truth-telling.

Truth is objective. It's not because I FEEL awash in love and adrenalin
that it's true I should take a big emotional risk.

Oh my...

incoherent but I think I got something.

Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 25, 2007, 02:37:19 AM
hmm, Hopalong, some how I don't think this is true all the time.
Quote
And I think one key is that it's OLD EMOTION. It's not not not present feeling in response to present reality.
It's OOOOOOOLD yearning and wishing and unfulfilled needs for affection from waaaaay back thennnnnn.

The emotions are old, I agree but the trigger in the present is real and the feelings in response to the trigger in the present reality is real and valid.  I think it's why we might feel so strongly about this person but not about that person. 

sometimes it's projection and more our own stuff but sometimes it's TRUE and ACCURATE to respond in the emotional way we are but we doubt ourselves and our own emotions and second guess our feelings instead of trusting in them, I think.


Quote
We're lugging around OLD emotion that's so big it covers the lens of our hearts and we confuse our SINCERITY of feeling with ACCURACY and APPROPRIATENESS of feeling!

I think all feeling is appropriate  but it's what we do with the feeling that may not be appropriate.  but sometimes, like I've said that feeling is very accurate BECAUSE it reminds us so much of the past and triggers that old, familiar emotion.

but I guess I do get what you're saying on the other hand, because sometimes we can deceive ourselves into think we feel one way when we're really afraid to admit we feel something else -- I say "we" cause I've done it too.

I
Quote
also think, for me, it is a big thought that
we (me) can confuse our sincerity of feeling
(it's so strong and intense and real it must be telling me something true...)

with accuracy of emotional knowledge.

see, IMO all feeling is telling you something true -- what that is only the person feeling the feeling can say.  sometimes others can point it out, because they can see it more clearly but only the person can confirm that it's true but only  if they're willing.

I have a hard time with those words accuracy of emotional knowledge, cause I think emotions are fluid and changing -- to me to judge "emotional knowledge" would be like trying to measure the ocean.

I guess I'm thinking what  the best thing is to ask would be is:

Am I feeling an old emotion, if so WHY?

what is happening right now that has triggered this old wound?

what can I do that's healthy to either protect myself, remove myself from the situation, diffuse the situation or change the situation.

CAN I do anything to change the situation?

what am I doing to contribute to the situation?

at least those are the things I asked myself.



*    *     *
Hey, Bigspal, I was actually correcting myself!!!  when I responded to you I said "trustworthy" when I meant to write not trustworthy. 
I'm really glad so many  were able to relate to some of what I wrote -- it has been and still is on so many levels a very painful lesson and journey and it feels really good to share.




Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: teartracks on July 25, 2007, 04:23:10 PM


Hi lighter,

Honestly, I lurked here for a good long time before I ever posted because there was strife on the board.  

I am curious.  While lurking, reading and posting, have you identified any common denominators to the strife? 

tt
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 26, 2007, 01:42:28 AM


Hi lighter,

Honestly, I lurked here for a good long time before I ever posted because there was strife on the board.  

I am curious.  While lurking, reading and posting, have you identified any common denominators to the strife? 

tt





"Double Bind Two:

It is more important to pretend that there are no problems or serious issues within this group's dynamics than it is to identify and resolve problems and serious issues so that individual group members and the group at large can break denial, confront recurring patterns, and heal. Therefore, anyone who becomes aware of problems and serious issues within the group dynamics will be regarded as a threat and treated as an enemy if they speak out about them or make any distinctions in how they interact with group members on the basis of how they themselves are being treated.

In other words, preserving the appearance of group harmony is more important than the group's collective mental and emotional health, or the mental and emotional health of any group member.

Which is exactly the situation most of us had in our families of origin. Keep it quiet, hush it up, move along, nothing to see here, stop rocking the boat."~ Posted by Stormchild, Nov 2006
  ---- http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=2916.msg47299#msg47299 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=2916.msg47299#msg47299)
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 26, 2007, 03:20:27 AM


Hi lighter,

Honestly, I lurked here for a good long time before I ever posted because there was strife on the board.  

I am curious.  While lurking, reading and posting, have you identified any common denominators to the strife? 

tt


I was so upset and sick when I first came here.... even though someone explained what was going on..... I can't tell you what the heck happened.  Certainly, someone felt attacked. 

Someone didn't feel safe posting and they said so.

I wish I could remember what else was going on and why that dynamic came about.  It's a little embarrasing to admit that someone here held my hand via e mail for a while bc I didn't feel safe posting.  I can't remember who it was at the time.  It could have been you: /  It was very helpful though and I'll always remember how it felt.

Where ya been, tt? I should have included you, Axa, debkor and Storm as people who are growing to the point of moving beyond this board, who's wisdom would be missed. 

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: teartracks on July 26, 2007, 02:10:36 PM


lighter,

Thanks.  I wish I could take credit for holding your hand as you became comfortable with posting, but can't.  :oops:  I'm glad someone was there for you. :)

I've been traveling and resting the last almost three weeks.  Taking a break from caretaking my mom.   

I'll be back on my home computer 'drip' by the end of July.  I'll probably give a report on it all when I get home.

The main thing I needed to reconcile and work into my spirit was the 'savior rising' part of me that would do anything to keep this woman from falling and the real likelihood of  a tormenting death resulting from it.  No wonder I was exhausted.  A savior I am not!   A fixer I am not!  I finally learned it. 

tt



Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 26, 2007, 02:16:57 PM
Hi teartracks,

I learned it, too... and hope and pray not to lose sight of that truth!!

Looking forward to your return... to your computer "drip"  ??  (what's that about?)

Anyhow, I'm so glad you've had a break! Just rejoicing with you over here... with love,

Hope
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on July 26, 2007, 02:51:59 PM

Looking forward to your return... to your computer "drip"  ??  (what's that about?)

Hope


Hi CH

tt is addicted so has an IV to her computer.

get it? an I V drip!

at least that's how i see it.............. as I have one!

xx
Izzy
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: teartracks on July 26, 2007, 02:55:38 PM


Yeah Iz,

That's it.  Love to you.

tt
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on July 26, 2007, 03:14:44 PM
Love to you too, tt

I cannot figure out when  you are near a computer and not.

Pardon my answering for you!--

I hope all is going well with you
xx
Izzy
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 26, 2007, 05:00:09 PM

trial and error:  you're learning who NOT to trust, but the way you're doing it doesn't make sense because it's emotional.  you might KNOW in your head that these people are trustworthy but you don't FEEL that way, you so want them to be different, to be loving.

for me it wasn't until I got:

that they couldn't be loving

that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing

that they were danger

that it was NOT my fault that they were the way they were

that I could NOT change them

that I so much WANTED them to be different

that is HURT HURT HURT --

it wasn't until I could feel all these feelings that I could release the lesson.

I think human beings are made in such a way that much of what is going on for us is going on spiritually and emotionally, under the surface.

we try to understand and make sense of things, but that is only half the battle.

the worst part -- the part we all avoid, myself included, is FEELING it.

that is what we distract ourselves from, but because it is what is necessary, I believe we just keep orchestrating the same events over and over so we can feel it and heal.



Dear Guest,
   This is exactly what I am going through now.. You are down the road -- ahead of me. Yesterday, I felt "real". I looked at people's faces and I felt feelings and responses and I received them  I did not filter them. I am Seeing below the surface to feelings and emotions.
  I am almost "real"-- not quite.
   I see that healing IS all about feeling those 'hidden' and denied feelings. It is about facing  those truths that we denied and put in our bodies and psyches. Then we got sick - mentally and physically.
   I am seeing life in more  color now.
      Guest, can you tell me more about your journey out of "mental distortions"?      Thanks so very very much                                                                                  Love    Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on July 26, 2007, 05:16:28 PM

Hi CH

tt is addicted so has an IV to her computer.

get it? an I V drip!

at least that's how i see it.............. as I have one!

xx
Izzy

Oh my.. lol -  okay, thank you, Izzy!  I have one of those drips for coffee each morning... lol.

I like my computer, but coffee... ahh... makes my heart beat faster :D

Love,
Hope

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 26, 2007, 09:49:37 PM
TT...

Joyful travel and peaceful rest!

love
Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: teartracks on July 27, 2007, 02:35:27 PM



Hi everyone,

Thanks Iz for being my interpreter!  I'm not close to a computer except for random trips to the local library where in this case the out of school kids are almost out of control, doing things like farting for effect.   :shock: 

CH,

Oh yes, coffee!  Maybe one day computer drips will come with coffee!  :lol:

Hops,

Thanks for your good wishes.  I'm learning so much and I'm unlearning so much.  I can't tell which is the hardest, the learning or the unlearning or are they the same thing?   If the old back holds up, I may post an account when I get back on the  'puter drip.'

Missing y'all,

tt
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: teartracks on July 27, 2007, 02:41:45 PM



lighter,

I should have included you, Axa, debkor and Storm as people who are growing to the point of moving beyond this board, who's wisdom would be missed. 

I'm not sure I will ever grow to the point where I will move beyond this board.  I have learned a lot for sure.  I'm still learning.  At this point, the board feels like some kind of glue that binds what I'm learning  at large together.  Kind of hard to explain.

Thank you for your kind thoughts.

tt

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 29, 2007, 10:49:00 PM
Quote
Guest, can you tell me more about your journey out of "mental distortions"?      Thanks so very very much                                                                                  Love    Ami

Ami, it warms my heart to know that some of what I have written resonates w/ you and is helping you with your own healing truly.  I'm hoping that will be true for others as well.

It's sad, but I do not feel this is a safe place for me to share my feelings and thoughts -- I'm sorry I cannot (chose not to) be more open here.  Please do not take it personally.

wishing you all the best and more.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 29, 2007, 11:02:48 PM
Dear Guest,
   I don't take it personally at all. I just want to pose something to you--- take it or leave it, as it seems right to you.
   I have gone through many difficult phases while I have been on the board. I have 2 friends that I PM when I need to talk privately about what is going on.
   I see the board as replicating real  life. There has been a person trying to undermine me.I held to my own dignity and learned a lesson from her that I could not have learned from 100 people trying to be kind to me. I learned to be strong about who I am.
   Another time, I gave an unpopular opinion. I had to stand firm ,with dignity and that passed and I saw that I could stand up to outside disapproval and be O.K..
    It is just a thought-- to use the board as a way to grow and to find your voice in the difficult situations ,as well as the comforting ones.
   I suspect that you already know this and have made up your mind. I respect that.I hope that you post every now and then , Guest, b/c you have an honesty  that I like.          Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 29, 2007, 11:32:39 PM


lighter,

I'll be back on my home computer 'drip' by the end of July.  I'll probably give a report on it all when I get home.

The main thing I needed to reconcile and work into my spirit was the 'savior rising' part of me that would do anything to keep this woman from falling and the real likelihood of  a tormenting death resulting from it.  No wonder I was exhausted.  A savior I am not!   A fixer I am not!  I finally learned it. 

tt


tt:

I look forward reading about your time away. 

So glad that actually happened for ya.

How's your brother doing? 

Bet it's been a looooong 3 weeks for him. 

As for giving up the savior spirit thing..... I haven't had to do it with a parent but.... I've been doing it with a friend and family members. 

I was sorta pushed into it giving it up..... it's been a relief in some ways and more turmoil in others. 

I was barely keeping my own head above water.  I couldn't really manage it, to tell the truth. 

My not saving someone caused even more troubles and I ended up back in the position of caretaking once again.   

Pressure is being applied to rectify that, yet again.  Someone on my team is very very focused and has NO time for caretaking those that aren't willing to help themselves. 

She urges me to release the feeling of responsibility and hand it all back to those that should be handling it.

 I can see both sides, unfortunately.... and I feel guilt from the pit of my stomach. 

Just today I was ordered around by a family member and I hopped to did their bidding.  Chaos and trouble ensued.  NO good deed goes unpunished and she actually told me that all the chaos was MY idea, lol.  ::shaking head::

Absurd and I can only shake my head and try not to say awful things to her. 

I don't know how to deal with Borderline Personality Disordered people..... yet. 

One elephant at a time, please.  She doesn't cut me any slack during this pressing time in my life.  She makes outrageous and hurtful statements then asks me to do things for her that she should have already done for herself but she's too proud to ask other people she's ticked off too.   
 
As for the NON family member...... I go back and forth between putting my foot down...... or relaxing into 'extending grace' to this person who once extended it to me. 

A different kind of grace, but grace none the less. 

Very very hard to give up that savior halo: / 

Not sure why but it was like untying a lifeline for someone I usually keep tied to me.  Releasing it almost made me go smaller and limp inside.  It didn't feel good but I was interested in seeing just exactly WHAT it did to me.

The truth is...... it's not my responsibility and intellectually I can see that.   

I have been enabling, not helping that person move beyond. 

The grace extended to me..... helped me help myself and it wasn't extended, it was short term. 

There's a difference. 

If we help people remain stuck.... are we really helping them?

Come back and tell your story when you're ready, tt: )

::trying to pry savior halo off with a screwdriver:: 

Ow.


Must have needed that vent.  Thanks tt. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 11:42:20 AM
Ami,

Thanks for the suggestion. 

My reluctance to open up more, though I will tell you has to do with how much I've grown and learn.

I see this place as a forum that people come to when they've learned to see past their denial and have opened up to the fact that their spouse, mother, siblings, coworkers are Ns and are reeling from that knowledge.

There is a lot of hurt and pain, betrayal, loss of trust, confusion and baggage that comes with that and this is a great place to get information and flush that out - explore it.

What I do not see this place as is one of accountability.

I have seen myself engage in many toxic, self-sabotoging behaviors -- detrimental to my own well being and my loved ones. 

On many levels, it's not my fault.

I wasn't trained well.  I had poor examples.  I grew up in a kill or be killed environment.  I am prodded and manipulated -- I have allowed that because I didn't know other relationships existed.

Oh, it seemed only normal to me and being triggered, because I am after all only human, I have succumbed.

As I looked at my life, as I've recovered from my wounds I looked at myself.  I've learned to stop looking for the fault in everyone else and look at myself.

I don't see this as a place that can really do that on the whole.

The group, in and of itself is very resistant to any suggestion, criticism or differing points of view.  The group is very self-protective, sometimes to the detriment of one or more of it's participants. 

This fluctuates from time to time but remains a constant theme.

People who do not readily operate in this way (in protection of the group as a whole) are ostracized or scapegoated -- look at what happened here, right on this very thread -- and immediately, right away.

You're right, Ami, it is a replication of the real world.

and what I've learned is that is TOXIC.

when others will attack you and label you rather than engage you in dialogue and self reflect that is dangerous.

it dehumanizes you.  you become a thing, rather than a living, breathing person with feelings.

what happens to you becomes "okay".  You're hurt but it doesn't matter to the one doing the hurting because after all

they are RIGHT and you are WRONG.  they have a point and you don't.  whatever they are trying to say supersedes your feelings.

it becomes clear that you are not a member of the fold unless you can sacrifice whatever issue, pain or hurt you've brought up for examination.

It is expected that this should be done for the benefit of the "group" but at the expense of the individual's well being and emotional health.



this is abusive, toxic, debilitating thinking.  the group is made of individuals, all with differing needs and cares.  when one suffers, we all suffer.

when one experiences healing we all are blessed by it, all who witness, all who participate, all who learn by example -- the group grows as a whole.

but when one is "slaughtered" we are all stained by the blood that splashes onto the bystanders, all who witness, all who participate, all who learn by example -- and it can happen on many, many levels.  from extreme to "seemingly" harmless.  but all of it eats away very slowly at our collective souls.

now I'm not saying who does that here or that everyone does that here but it does happen here.  and if someone points it out, they are attacked for it or labeled; some say they haven't experienced it, in short dismissing the one who has  -- basically, the toxic, dysfunctional FOO cycle continues.

for some it is helpful, in that the pain and betrayal is a catalyst for growth and healing.

for myself it is an unnecessary reminder of how callous and hurtful we all can be when we're in pain.

I include myself in that as a constant reminder that I, too, can be that way lest I cease being vigilant.

I firmly believe our relationships with others reflect our relationship with ourselves.

I firmly believe if we find ourselves encountering cantankerous people, users, liars, manipulators, closed off emotionally unavailable people, dominating people, selfish people there is something inside of us that needs  to heal in order for us to cease tolerating that element of chaos in our lives in the here now.

you know, even toxic people can see.

my N parents have said many things about me that were lies -- but some of it was true!!!!


it would be easy to reject everything they have said as crazy and harmful but it is more beneficial to myself to face the truth with humility and sincerity so that I can grow in spirit to be whom God intended.


Ami, thank you for giving me the opportunity to say this here -- there obviously was a need.

In my pain and sorrow I reached out to this place for solace and what I received was horrible, bordering on inhumane but none the less unidentifiable to those who participated in it; tolerable to those who witnessed it; acceptable to those who ignored it. 

Did it hurt me?

Yes, it was incredibly hurtful, in a way that defies logic if I did not understand that it was just a replication of my parents', my FOOs' betrayal of myself over and over again in my childhood.

no, I will never open myself up to that treatment again.

because as I've learned to take good care of myself now -- and I have become able to discern environments and relationships that are healthy for ME.

this is something we can all do and it is entirely personal.

what is good for one person may not be good for another and visa versa.

~God bless
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: teartracks on July 30, 2007, 02:21:51 PM
Hi all,


As I see it, at best most of us here are amateurs in the field of psychology and sociology.   All we can give is all we can give.  I mean how often has someone exclaimed, complained or warned about the ineptness of supposedly  credentialed therapists who when put to the test, fail their patient?  If there are so many failures amongst the professionals, then what would make a person expect they are going to receive 'professional' insight and treatment for deep psychological issues on a forum compiled mainly of amateurs?  I'm not saying it won't happen, or that it is wrong to offer up anything we think will help, but we must be realistic in our expectations.  I'm not putting down anyone's efforts to do all they can, nor am I putting down those of us who have monumental issues, but come on!

After a long absence, I have been posting here about two years.  My observation is that there is a dark underbelly that drives this conflict, and IMO all the others that have erupted over the last two or so years that I've been a member.  I have dissected and explained to myself the common denominators of these cycles/dramas.   You see, I'm good at that.  There is always and inflicter and an inflictee.  I'm able to see the big surface picture of these conflicts and it is ugly!  UGLY!   The problem is that  I have no skills at treating the underlying cause.  At best anything I could offer would sound glib and cold.  So I decided not to post my analysis of the common denominators of these conflicts until or unless I had something to offer in the way of fixing the wounds that drive the conflict.  (This post may be my best or worst effort toward that cause.)  And what lies beneath is a serious, psychological issue that has taken a destructive, turn.  I don't like being a prop for the drama and except for the inflicter and the inflictee that's what we who participate become.  Maybe my 'savior rising' tendency really is on its way out.  The driving force beneath these conflicts defies understanding and explaination by your average,  run of the mill, garden variety, street talking social psychologist (that is me).     

Many have said it before me.  There is lots of help to be had here,  but when it"s all said and done what you get here could turn out to be to deep psychological issues what a laxative would be to appendicitis.  We must exercise reasonable caution here as in all aspects of life.

What I'm saying seems blunt to my own ears, but I think we all need a heads up here, not about a person or persons, but about the limitations of the board when it comes to what we expect from it on a  personal level.

To chronically place blame, guilt, shame, on the board community at large seems unfair and unreasonable.

I'll probably regret posting this, but I'm going to and let the chips fall where they may.

tt 

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 30, 2007, 03:03:58 PM
TT,
Thank you for your wisdom.
You brought gifts down from the mountain!

(I deleted my previous post since I think I was off base. Leaving the love though.)

hugs
Hops
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 30, 2007, 03:16:21 PM
Dear Guest,
  Someone tried to 'run me off" the board a month ago. It almost worked. I am not a conventional thinker.  I am healing in a different way than some people like. I am healing in the way that my intuition tells me that I should heal.
 . I stayed by having supportive friends that I could private message. They encouraged me to stay. When I did stay, I have noticed more hurting people coming "out of the woodwork" and feeling safe to post on deep and real issues.
   This may be b/c of me or may not be. However, the board seems to have allowed more personal cries  than before where people were"slapped" down more. 
    Guest,I differ with you on one thing. I think that you are looking for a utopia . You seem to be looking for a place  where it is "safe". I think that part of my maturity is realizing that there is no  totally safe place. Our best bet will be to find some people who will have our back- within the general group of people. Even the people who have our back will not be there 100%. .
    My thought is that you are looking for a utopia. In doing this ,you will deprive yourself of people who will love and care for you. The people who want to hurt you for their own needs will always be there-- on the board and in real life. You can never get away from them-- no matter how far you go. IMO, you might as well take the love and caring that you can find and learn how to fight back at the negative influences without losing the core of who you are,
   Your FOO stole enough away from you. Don't let "unrealistic" thinking steal any more.
   This is just as I see it. However, i am saying it with love and concern. I, personally,need the board. I just have to learn to navigate the sharks                         Love  Ami
 .
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 03:29:12 PM
Quote
To chronically place blame, guilt, shame, on the board community at large seems unfair and unreasonable
.

I guess herein lies the dilema. 

I offer a critique, an observation an explanation of my own experience

the person receives blame, guilt & shame -- it's a problem of perception.

Ami, you say you percieve I am looking for utopia. 

no, not at all.

truthfully, the most welcomed response to my post would have went something like this:

Guest, you sound like you're in a lot of pain.  some of what you say it true.  it doesn't matter why -- we all have our theory as to why this happens in life and here.

I here and understand what you're saying.

I am so sorry that you've been hurt here and in real space, with your family.

I've learned to avoid the negative aspects of this place and I've learned and grown from it -- I hope that in some way this is and will become true for you.


TT, your response did not make me feel good at all.  did is matter to you when you wrote it, how I felt?

I'm just asking.  were you just concerned with the fact that I had made the board look bad or that you felt bad that you forgot I'm a person just like you.  with all my hurts faults and all.

Hops, your cheers and applause, in writing it did you think about me at all? 

did it matter how I felt?

if I was write, ami, lighter or one of the others would you have spared a word of comfort -- encouragement kindness?

I'm just asking.

I am not per se looking for a place where it is safe - no place is completely like that.

I am looking for a place where expression is tolerated and if some one is attacked for having feelings others say, Hey, hey, not here -- that's not okay.

again, God bless.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 03:41:18 PM
Quote
After a long absence, I have been posting here about two years.  My observation is that there is a dark underbelly that drives this conflict, and IMO all the others that have erupted over the last two or so years that I've been a member.  I have dissected and explained to myself the common denominators of these cycles/dramas.   You see, I'm good at that.  There is always and inflicter and an inflictee.  I'm able to see the big surface picture of these conflicts and it is ugly!  UGLY!   The problem is that  I have no skills at treating the underlying cause.  At best anything I could offer would sound glib and cold.  So I decided not to post my analysis of the common denominators of these conflicts until or unless I had something to offer in the way of fixing the wounds that drive the conflict.  (This post may be my best or worst effort toward that cause.)  And what lies beneath is a serious, psychological issue that has taken a destructive, turn.  I don't like being a prop for the drama and except for the inflicter and the inflictee that's what we who participate become.  Maybe my 'savior rising' tendency really is on its way out.  The driving force beneath these conflicts defies understanding and explaination by your average,  run of the mill, garden variety, street talking social psychologist (that is me).     

Many have said it before me.  There is lots of help to be had here,  but when it"s all said and done what you get here could turn out to be to deep psychological issues what a laxative would be to appendicitis.  We must exercise reasonable caution here as in all aspects of life.

this reads like an us vs them theory.  the deeply psychologically disturbed vs the garden viariety, stree talking  -- it hurts to read.

I don't see conflicts as being treatable at all of all things  :shock:  -- but maybe my reaction is to the limitation of language.  maybe this doesn't mean what I think it means.

conflicts arise from triggered emotions which need to be acknowledged, felt and most importantly HEARD.  before we say or do anything there is a feeling that propels us into action.

but after all I suppose it doesn't matter what I feel.  I'm not a "member" here anymore.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 30, 2007, 03:56:55 PM
Dear Guest,
   I think that you are trying to control the uncontrollable----- other people.I think that this is our dilemma when we come from a N  FOO. I am learning this lesson now and it is really, really freeing.
 I am alone . God will provide people to undergird me,but even these people can disappoint me or betray me .. Then ,there are the other people who just don't like me b/c I am me  and I threaten them in some way. Or maybe someone just wants to be nasty and I am in the crossfire. This has happened to me, also..
  I don't think that there is any group anywhere --- where you will not have to fight some  type of power battles.My son is in a fraternity. I am amazed that he can navigate his way in a group of people like this. He says that the same thing that happens on the board -happens in  the fraternity. My other son is a manager in a restaurant. The same thing happens there.This helps me to see that this is just life. I need to learn to navigate, rather than want it to be different.
   Guest, this is just my voice, I think that you are giving up on yourself by going away. I almost did it to, so I do understand how you feel,I think                                 
   Anyway, I just wanted to give my opinion. God bless you                     Love  Ami
   
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 04:06:07 PM
no, Ami, thank you.  you are helping immensely -- your voice is solid and strong and honest.

this is how I felt just minutes ago.   I thought, am I being called:  deeply disturbed.  boy, that hurts so much, and then I thought

to myself:  boy, should I have written that another way?  how could I have written my feelings better to convey what I truly felt?

how could I have said what I feel w/o coming off as I was attacking.

in short, I felt:  responsible.

if I feel responsible, then yes, there is something in me that feels like I can "fix" it

"fix it" = control.

so how right you are.  that is in me and has been for a long time.  and here God is showing it too me again. 

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 30, 2007, 04:12:46 PM
Dear Guest,
   We have crossroads when we can face our internal patterns or run. I think that this is one time for you. We are playing out our internal issues on "outside things".All of us do this, but it is worse when you have an N FOO. Bigals pal went through that a week ago.She was playing out her" over apologizing "when she was not at fault. Friends helped her and she took back her power.
   That is your opportunity as I see it--- .You can take back your power or you can run. If you run., you will be faced with the same lesson--over and over. Stay--- I will help you and other people will too.
 What has happened to you has happened to most everyone. It will happen if you have strong ideas and are"different' from the pack. Don't you want t learn to celebrate that difference?  I hope so   Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 30, 2007, 04:22:07 PM


Quote
What I do not see this place as is one of accountability.



I disagree with that statement but I'm willing to accept your feelings and not ask you to doubt them.  

If you ask me to doubt my feelings, are you not doing to me what you feel has been done unto you?


Quote
As I looked at my life, as I've recovered from my wounds I looked at myself.  I've learned to stop looking for the fault in everyone else and look at myself.





I wouldn't be pointing this out..... again...... but it seems appropriate, somehow.

You made a statement involving your superior ability to reason and understand on a 'specific' thread.  

You criticized other board members' ability to understand and post responsibly.

I spoke my truth, as I saw and it was accused of being a meanie.  I understand why.  

My N always accused me of 'being cruel' if I refused to accept his warped reality, usually flying in the face of all reason.  

Are we discussing the same point here?  

Or speaking to past ghosts and triggers?  I'm not really sure.
  



Quote
People who do not readily operate in this way (in protection of the group as a whole) are ostracized or scapegoated -- look at what happened here, right on this very thread -- and immediately, right away.

I think you were asked for clarification, not scapegoated but your feelings about that are valid, no matter how anyone else sees it.  

You deserve to feel understood.  

I needed to understand why you wanted [me] to accept your statement as fact, when it was actually a contradiction, IMO.  

You didn't upset me, I was just curious so I asked and pointed out what seemed like a cotradiction to me.  

An attack, at least on my part, would look much different than the interaction on this thread, I promise, lol.  



Quote
You're right, Ami, it is a replication of the real world.

and what I've learned is that is TOXIC.

when others will attack you and label you rather than engage you in dialogue and self reflect that is dangerous.

it dehumanizes you.  you become a thing, rather than a living, breathing person with feelings.


I wish you'd post authentically and work out whatever problem you had in the past.  

I promise, I want to understand and help you feel comfortable on the board......

 not dehumanize you, (((Guest)))  




Quote
what happens to you becomes "okay".  You're hurt but it doesn't matter to the one doing the hurting because after all

they are RIGHT and you are WRONG.  they have a point and you don't.  whatever they are trying to say supersedes your feelings.



You had a valid point, no doubt.  

IMO, it was unfortunately prefaced.  

  



Quote
it becomes clear that you are not a member of the fold unless you can sacrifice whatever issue, pain or hurt you've brought up for examination.

It is expected that this should be done for the benefit of the "group" but at the expense of the individual's well being and emotional health.

this is abusive, toxic, debilitating thinking.  the group is made of individuals, all with differing needs and cares.  when one suffers, we all suffer.



I don't want to be asked to feel guilt and shame for using my voice either, Guest.  

Not that I'm complaining, I simply open this up for honest dialogue without name calling or attacking.  
::holding hands up for peace::




Quote
but when one is "slaughtered" we are all stained by the blood that splashes onto the bystanders, all who witness, all who participate, all who learn by example -- and it can happen on many, many levels.  from extreme to "seemingly" harmless.  but all of it eats away very slowly at our collective souls.[q/uote]



 :shock:



Quote
now I'm not saying who does that here or that everyone does that here but it does happen here.  and if someone points it out, they are attacked for it or labeled; some say they haven't experienced it, in short dismissing the one who has  -- basically, the toxic, dysfunctional FOO cycle continues.

 

:shock:



Quote
Ami, thank you for giving me the opportunity to say this here -- there obviously was a need.

In my pain and sorrow I reached out to this place for solace and what I received was horrible, bordering on inhumane but none the less unidentifiable to those who participated in it; tolerable to those who witnessed it; acceptable to those who ignored it.  

Did it hurt me?



Good Lord and little fishes, Guest :shock:

I think we all identify with past hurts on the board.  

Strife's always been an opportunity for growth, IME.    

I truly hope you can work through some of these feelings.  

Maybe we could have one thread that addresses the old issues specifically, if you think it would help?

Newbies could avoid it and only those up to it could attend.... keep it in that one thread?

I really do get a lot from your posts and hope you can feel safe here once again, Guest.    

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 04:58:48 PM
Hi Lighter,

I'm not asking you or anyone to doubt their feelings, just to accept that my feelings (for me and to me) are real and valid - not just a figment of my derranged imagination.  I don't see the two as mutually exclusively.

You feelings can co-exist with my own.

For example, the "contradiction" you pointed out -- it's valid.  I did not want to post "authentically" as you describe it (I am authentic even though I'm not using a handle other than one prefaced by guest) and so while I wanted to be more compassionate in the ARe We Mentally Ill thread,  I couldn't w/o giving myself away.  I came off sounding all intellectual because of that but that was an accurate description because I was scared and I was trying to protect myself. 

most of the time when we go into our head it's because we are scared to feel the feelings.  I've learned that through my experiences with my trauma and healing.

Quote
You made a statement involving your superior ability to reason and understand on a 'specific' thread. 

You criticized other board members' ability to understand and post responsibly.

I spoke my truth, as I saw and it was accused of being a meanie.  I understand why. 

My N always accused me of 'being cruel' if I refused to accept his warped reality, usually flying in the face of all reason. 

Are we discussing the same point here? 

Or speaking to past ghosts and triggers?  I'm not really sure.

I would answer this but you're still being mean.  I am not your N, not even close.  This paragraph is full of put downs and accusations and doesn't seem to want to understand me or acknowledge my feelings at all.  Because you've wrote that paragraph above I cannot accept what you say below:

Quote
I wish you'd post authentically and work out whatever problem you had in the past. 

I promise, I want to understand and help you feel comfortable on the board......

 not dehumanize you, (((Guest)))
 


I am authentic.  If I became a member as G101 or posted as G101, would I still not be authentic -- would I somehow become more authentic?

Quote
I don't want to be asked to feel guilt and shame for using my voice either, Guest. 

Not that I'm complaining, I simply open this up for honest dialogue without name calling or attacking. 
::holding hands up for peace::


I am not asking that at all and if you were not frightened of me and did not feel threatened by me we could have open dialogue, we could talk honestly and w/ an integrity.  I don't feel that you can do that though - I don't feel that you want what is best for me -- I feel you want to destroy my voice here on this forum because you find it threatening.

I hope you can read this and accept it as a valid and honest description of WHAT I FEEL and not of what or who you are -- as I have read and accepted your own comments.

I am sorry truly that you have a need to make me a villain here but I do not accept that label. 





   
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 30, 2007, 05:19:23 PM
Dear Guest,
   When it is all said and done, I think that you should stay and fight for your voice. It is THAT important. Also, you can learn to separate FOO patterns within you from external situations outside of you(like we all have to do) . If you don't do it here- where are you going to do it?                               Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 05:46:36 PM
ami, we'll see - emotionally I'm at a very vulnerable place in my life and I want to honor that and take good care of myself.   your support and wisdom is like a balm to this wounded soldier -- thank you for extending such grace.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 30, 2007, 05:53:33 PM
Dear Guest,
   You are so very ,very welcome .                                     Love    Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on July 30, 2007, 06:04:01 PM
Quote
guest101
I couldn't w/o giving myself away.

I don't want to get into a bruhaha but I noticed the above and have to wonder what you have to hide and why?
The Board does not function well with sneakiness and cliques.
Izzy
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 06:17:20 PM
Quote
I don't want to get into a bruhaha but I noticed the above and have to wonder what you have to hide and why?
The Board does not function well with sneakiness and cliques.
Izzy


Izzy, I very clearly explained that I was scared.  And if you've read any of my responses on this thread (you might not have although you've participated in the dialogue) I wrote more than once that I had posted here and been treated badly.

This board does function very well with sneakiness and cliques, so I wholeheartedly disagree with you -- it functions "well" in the dysfunctional way that the world does.

Izzy, I am sorry but I cannot and will not play the role of villain on this board for you or anyone else here.  I am a living, breathing, hurting, loving human being just as everyone else is here -- just as you I ready to believe you are.

I am blessed to see that this is clear to some who have responded here.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 30, 2007, 06:42:19 PM


I am not asking that at all and if you were not frightened of me and did not feel threatened by me we could have open dialogue, we could talk honestly and w/ an integrity.  I don't feel that you can do that though - I don't feel that you want what is best for me -- I feel you want to destroy my voice here on this forum because you find it threatening.

I hope you can read this and accept it as a valid and honest description of WHAT I FEEL and not of what or who you are -- as I have read and accepted your own comments.

I am sorry truly that you have a need to make me a villain here but I do not accept that label.   
[/quote

I'm going to slow talk back to you what I think I hear you saying, Guest.

1)  You think I'm threatened by you

2) You understand how I've been triggered with regard to my N's expectations that I deny reality

3)  You think I find YOU threatening, even after we just talked about what we both feel is the real threat.  N's past treatment of me.  

You're OP was the trigger.  

I've admitted my issue wasn't really your post, therefore I don't feel you're a threat.

4)  You think I personally wish you ill will on the board and have labled you a 'villain'


I believe my honest attempt at communcation with you was rejected.    

I regret that you feel threatened by me.  

I don't think I'm the only factor involved, unfortunately.  

I can't fix this one: /  

I didn't assume teartrack's post was directed soley at you.  

In fact, I read it in your favor, funnily enough.  

Maybe everyone assumed she might be talking about them, lol.... ::Shrug::  

Not sure but it coud happen, lol.  

I'm going to assume you have no intention of posting authentically on the board...... Meaning, identify yourself and post details that would help anyone understand what the hecks going on with you.

That's perfectly acceptable.  

I do find it frustrating though, for reasons of my own, so I won't be responding to your posts much in the future.  

::a little relieved we won't be revisiting that particular past conflict::

I really do hope you feel better and find peace.  
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 07:10:41 PM
true dialogue is talking about how you feel and asking someone else how they feel and being able to respond -

for ex.  so you feel this way?  why?   Not telling someone what they feel -- there is a difference. and I can't LOL because I don't feel there is anything funny about ignoring another person's feelings.

if anyone can take anything positive away from this dialogue they can take that away.  I have talked about my feelings -- my voice which is my own and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

authentically, Guest101
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 30, 2007, 08:33:45 PM
true dialogue is talking about how you feel and asking someone else how they feel and being able to respond -

for ex.  so you feel this way?  why?   Not telling someone what they feel -- there is a difference. and I can't LOL because I don't feel there is anything funny about ignoring another person's feelings.

if anyone can take anything positive away from this dialogue they can take that away.  I have talked about my feelings -- my voice which is my own and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

authentically, Guest101



Ummmm..... I have to authentically throw a red flag on the field.....

and we'll just have to agree to disagree.     

 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on July 30, 2007, 09:09:40 PM
Dear Guest,

I'm sorry you felt hurt when I responded to TT's post about our limits here.
I wasn't thinking about your feelings just then...I was thinking about her perspective. I thought it was healthy and wanted to thank her.

It's hard to meet multiple needs at once, but I had no thought of hurting you.

Hops


Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 30, 2007, 09:47:26 PM
Quote
I'm sorry you felt hurt when I responded to TT's post about our limits here.
I wasn't thinking about your feelings just then...I was thinking about her perspective. I thought it was healthy and wanted to thank her.

It's hard to meet multiple needs at once, but I had no thought of hurting you.

Hopalong, I  do understand, really I do. 

I wanted to be honest about my feelings despite feeling attacked and vilified - I wanted to stay true to my voice, so thank you so much for extending such a heartfelt apology and for reassuring me -- it helps me to know that when I am honest about my feelings it is possible that someone can hear me and respond with honesty as well.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: sally on July 31, 2007, 12:48:15 AM
I have not been following every post on this thread and I'm amazed it's gone to 10 pages.

I'm bothered by the way people are trying to "out" Guest.  People (I think) are accusing Guest of not being "authentic" because he/she hasn't chosen a name, like "Milly" or "Bobby" or whatever.  Is this an accurate assessment?

WHO CARES WHAT NAME GUEST USES????????  I don't.  I'm listening to Guest's words, his/her voice and he/she's been hurt.  I'm so sorry for that, Guest. 

Guest makes some great points.  I'm listening to ya Guest, I hear you, I agree with many things you say.

Again, haven't been following this thread too closely, but I believe some people are throwing Guest's words back at Guest.  Again, is this an accurate assessment?  If not, I apologize.  If I'm correct, I absolutely hate when people do that.  It's such a "GOTCHA" thing to do.  It's such a cross examination and this Board is, IMO, no place for cross exam. Let's leave cross exam for the court room, not for a board where people are trying to find their voice and heal.

OK, I just re-read pages 8-10 and there's a lot of quoting, going back to Overcomer's thread.  Yup, it's like a soap opera:  If ya don't watch for a month, ya don't miss anything, because the story never advances.  Seems like Guest is still being chastised for what Guest said on Overcomer's post.  Yup, the story advances, progresses little.

Guest, I think it's fine if you want to be anonymous.  Actually, we are all anonymous on this Board.  I think anonymity can give some people freedom to say what they really feel, can really allow some their voice.

So, I'll probably be in the dog house for this post, or just ignored.

bow wow.



Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 31, 2007, 08:59:37 AM
I think that we ,on the board, have to try to act out of our "good". We ,all have ego's. We all have a "flesh'-- as the Bible calls it. This is the part of us that has the meanness,bitterness,unforgivingness and all the rest of the negative traits and tendencies.
  I think that enough of us ,on the board, need to stand up when another person is being mistreated so that the few mean voices are squelched.
  During the Holocaust ,the King of Denmark put on the gold star and all the citizens did,too.. The Nazis had to leave and no Danish Jews were taken or killed,
  I think that we need to try to make sure that the board is a safe place for everyone. There,really, are only a few"bad apples,.but they can make the most noise. This is my opinion, anyway       Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2007, 09:11:12 AM
I
Guest, I think it's fine if you want to be anonymous.  Actually, we are all anonymous on this Board.  I think anonymity can give some people freedom to say what they really feel, can really allow some their voice.

So, I'll probably be in the dog house for this post, or just ignored.

bow wow.



Actually, Sally..... it's the 'naughty corner'.... not the dog house: /

::patting bench::  You can come sit next to me.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's for anyone who doesn't agree with every poster, I guess.

I don't post regularly with anonymous posters on any board.  

I can't keep up with all the posters who are forthright.....

and helping me figure out what's going on.  

I live with enough confusion already, thanks.  

Funny thing is.... I don't want to change your mind about how you feel or post.

I certainly can't help Guest feel differently about being hypocritical /critical of the collective board members....

for something that happened to her months ago.  

I don't even know what it was so.....

I'll call it like I see it and take a rest.  

She can continue to be in stealth mode,

in a place she doesn't feel safe,

for reasons we can't be privy to,

on a thread we know nothing about :shock:  

And you can continue to post however you choose.  

Asking others to post as you do isn't really fair either,  IMO.  

And that's what Guests OP was about, except she wasn't even doing that, was she?  

No.  

She wasn't.  

Very confusing and that's all I have to say about that.

::getting up and leaving naughty corner::






Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on July 31, 2007, 09:17:09 AM

  I think that enough of us ,on the board, need to stand up when another person is being mistreated so that the few mean voices are squelched.  I think that we need to try to make sure that the board is a safe place for everyone. There,really, are only a few"bad apples,.but they can make the most noise. Love  Ami


Ummmm...... is there gonna be a rumble?: / 

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: gust101 on July 31, 2007, 11:44:07 AM
Quote
During the Holocaust ,the King of Denmark put on the gold star and all the citizens did,too.. The Nazis had to leave and no Danish Jews were taken or killed,

Ami, this is such a powerful description of standing silently in your truth.  I will hold that image in my mind for a long time.  Thanks for that.  And I love your description of the struggle of the flesh --  it is so true and so relevant for all of us.

I know I can succomb to my flesh and say horrible things, do horrible things but with the grace of God I choose (and will hopefully continue to choose) not to do so, and He has always sustained me in that choice -- made possible what seemed impossible so I am so thankful to Him for his never-ending support.  In my struggle, when all others have walked away, when even the strongest cannot stand and support me despite their best intentions  God has never ever failed me.; that is my testimony.

Sally, thanks so much for reaffirming my voice, but most importantly for echoing the right of all of us  to have one -- it is what we all are struggling to reclaim here, which for many of us is a symbolic representation of how we will use our voice in the world.

 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on July 31, 2007, 11:59:01 AM
Dear Guest,
  I am coming to the conclusion that no matter how good our family, spouse or friends are--- we are --in reality-- alone with God. This helps to take the pressure off me to have "good" relationships when I can't(like with N's). It also helps me to put this life in to perspective.
                                                                                                           Love   Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: sally on July 31, 2007, 12:18:33 PM
Hi Guest,

You're welcome.

I just don't understand why people are downing you.

You explained that your were hurt in the past and you are not comfortable revealing certain info and details.  So, what is the problem with that?

You don't want to reveal yourself completely because that is your way of protecting yourself.  I understand that.  You are enforcing your boundaries and part of boundary enforcement is to decide to not reveal one's self if one feels it is not safe.  In view of the way you've been treated in this thread, I wouldn't feel safe either.  I think that your treatment on this thread is akin to interacting with an N:  You are being forced to, demanded to explain yourself and to account for yourself; your "mistakes" and your words are being thrown back in your face in an attempt to nail you.  I find it hypocritical and disgusting.

thanks so much for reaffirming my voice, but most importantly for echoing the right of all of us  to have one -- it is what we all are struggling to reclaim here, which for many of us is a symbolic representation of how we will use our voice in the world.

Guest, to me you have described the essence of this board:  That each of us has a right to have a voice, our struggle to claim or reclaim our voice and using our voice in the world.

sally

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on July 31, 2007, 10:21:10 PM
Quote
You don't want to reveal yourself completely because that is your way of protecting yourself.  I understand that.  You are enforcing your boundaries and part of boundary enforcement is to decide to not reveal one's self if one feels it is not safe.  In view of the way you've been treated in this thread, I wouldn't feel safe either.


all I can say is Wow - you have been able to describe my feelings exactly.  that is so validating.  it's sort of like when someone else discovers that your N is not a nice guy/girl but in fact a manipulative so and so -- you feel like ahhhh, I'm NOT crazy.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on July 31, 2007, 10:45:12 PM
where is Portia?

I miss her. ....I think

Izzy
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Certain Hope on August 01, 2007, 09:49:37 AM
“Then, surprise: the laughter must be my imagination.
I sat back in my chair and tried to lock it out, but the laughter continued to flow. When I looked up, I saw very far away and high up a fat man shaking with laughter and pointing a finger at me. He seemed to think that my effort to find the right defense was the play of a silly fool. He also found amusing my effort to smile at the realization that I was a fool. He thought my seeing his laughter at his smiling at his laughing was also funny. When I finally frowned, he laughed even harder. ‘Enough,’ I said loudly, but began to laugh myself……..
……At last I stopped.
So did the fat man, although he still smiled, and I felt very close to him. I thought again of the spectacular nonsensical options that I’d been considering and decided I’d throw them out. The fat man began laughing again. I looked up startled, smiled socially at him and decided that I would instead use all three non-rational options. He laughed harder. With a flush I realised that I would have to abandon the dicelife completely, but the fat man laughed on and was joined by three, four other fat men all pointing at me and laughing joyously.
My mind was filled suddenly with the vision of thousands of fat men sitting up there in that fourth dimension watching the antics of human aspiration and purpose, and laughing. Our plans, hopes, expectations, and promises, and the realities of the future which they could also see: only a source of laughter…..”
(Copyright Luke Rhinehart 1993)

Nice to post again, thanks for the nudge.


It rather disturbed me that I understood this  :|  ... and then I laughed!   :)
Mine is not to question why...  :P

Welcome back, Pricelessly well-timed Portia  :)
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 01, 2007, 10:51:21 AM
Portia.... that quote was from THE DICEMAN?  I read that when I was a young teen, lol. 

It is from that book, right?

::sticking out hand::

Nice to meet you, Portia. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 01, 2007, 10:00:43 PM
Hi, Portia :wink:
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on August 01, 2007, 10:05:57 PM
I talk to myself a lot. It helps me keep my identities straight   :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well actually I was listing off on my fingers out loud, what I have left to do...................

'''''''''''''''''shop, tomorrow. then make a seafood salad and a pasta salad and I'm ready for the onslaught!
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 01, 2007, 10:49:36 PM
LOL now I can laugh ---  I think what's happening here might fall under No. 6

http://www.nagty.ac.uk/student_academy/forums/netiquette.aspx (http://www.nagty.ac.uk/student_academy/forums/netiquette.aspx)
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on August 02, 2007, 01:45:09 AM
Honestly, I thought this thread would die!

May I shoot it?
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Hopalong on August 02, 2007, 07:13:35 AM
 :D
I've missed her too Izz...I'm sure!  :lol:

Hi (((P))))

Hops

-speaking of Ps, where's Pennyplant?
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 08:12:24 AM
Quote
hi Guest101,

((((((((((((((((((((((((((guest101))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I sure did miss you and I'm glad you're back, no matter how you choose to post.   

bean


Hi Bean, it sounds like you think you've figured out who I am.  I might be assuming myself.  I sure would have like it better if you spoke to me and tried to find out why I was so hurt about what happened here, then you'd be sure to know who I am.
Quote
Honestly, I thought this thread would die!

Funny, though posting the chit chatter is keeping the thread very much alive.

I'd like to do something unorthodox.  I'd like to invide everyone who's posted on this page to talk about what they feel about this thread but the catch is they have to be honest.

No attacking, pointing fingers, scapegoating and blaming.  That way we could figure out why this thread (which so many SAY they find distasteful) has over 1,000 views and over 160 responses. 

I can be open and honest with whomever is honest with me, but I will not participate in this game of disrupting the thread or changing the subject.

Been there and done that at the dinner table with many a spouse and family member.

Hasn't any one else experienced that?

People talking around you.  Ignoring you.  Changing the subject while they look at you with accusing eyes -- it feels awful, doesn't it?

You've brought up the unspoken and broken the FOO rule and you get punished for it.  Isn't that what is happening here.


 
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2007, 10:03:32 AM
Izzy, dear....

would



 you




please




shoot




this




thread?




I'll help make the pasta salad..... ::tapping foot::



Ok.....


::hanging head:::




And the seafood one.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 10:15:54 AM
Thanks Portia -

I always loved your in-your-face-honestly-this-is-what-I-think/feel approach.  

It is refreshing.

The other day one of my sons was attempting to ride a 10 speeder.  He was a little wobbly and unsure of himself but I encouraged him to take a go on the smooth terrain of the street rather than try to manage the crack sidewalk.  He was scared though and just kept trying to manage the sidewalk.  As he disappeared out of my sight around the corner . . .

Well, a thought popped into my head -- a memory.  My memory is shot -- too much abuse. I had to disassociate so I forgot a lot of stuff.  But this memory was of myself riding my own ten speeder, except we were not allowed off the block.  We had to ride back and forth in front of my house and that was really ridiculous on a ten speeder.  My younger brother and I decided to give it a go around the block and we did this, feeling free and glorious for about five minutes until we spotted one of my oldest brothers stomping up the block.

He'd seen us!!! :shock:

Well when my oldest brother got there he smacked me so hard I literally went black and saw all the stars and fireworks.  I think he knocked me out cold for a while.  When my Mom got home of course she said I got what I deserved

They (my FOO) were always tellings us that the rules about not going too far, not doing this and not doing that were for our safety.

They (my FOO) always said there were bad people out in the world that could do us harm.

But that was a lie!

The dangerous people, the people who were harming us were right in that house.  We had much more to fear from them than we did from anyone on the outside.

I think that memory came to me because I can handle that truth right about now.

So what I've finally learned from my FOO 40 years later is:  The most dangerous, abusive people are so much so because they PRETEND to be nice.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 02, 2007, 10:19:49 AM
Dear Friends,
   I think that Guest is asking us to resolve this so Guest feels comfortable coming back to the board. Why is that so hard to do? Do we want to be scapegoated as Guest seems to be? We have all been there,ourselves.     Can't we extend grace to Guest even if we disagree or don't disagree with individual posts?  Isn't that what we didn't get from N's?                                    Ami       
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 10:50:54 AM
Portiam, what do I feel about Ami's perception?

I think it's clear what is happening here and the more the responses come the more clear it is.

Quote
It was very hard to live through the ranting, screaming, (fake) threats of self-harm, etc. and then have them act like nothing had happened when they next walked through the door.

I think people are assuming I'm someone I'm not -- which is funny, because they won't even ask!!!

So I think people here don't want to address me and my pain but want to glaze over it because they feel it's (FAKE)  :shock:.

Sometimes people give examples of their own form of narcissism.  The person's pain becomes about them -- what they feel, what they can take, what they can handle -- what happened to THEM in the past.  What happened to the my moment on the floor, after all it's my thread.

It's been stolen, that's how it seems, and you know that's well and good if you're dealing with an abusive person who is out to hurt and use you and who isn't being honest about their pain and feelings in the first place  but if you're not . . .



Ami, I've decided to take some of your advice.  since I'm obviously going to be ostracized and not allowed to "play" with the other members I'll just keep voicing my own stories and truth and ignore the "bullies".

I am genuine and my pain is genuine, and no one here (even though they seem to think they do) knows what happened to me and what I'm truly talking about because they haven't

ASKED!!!!

To me, that means that they are not interested -- and judging by the responses that seems pretty clear, too.
Seems pretty clear they're wishing I'll just go away.

Those who HAVE been supportive, kind and understanding -- in short, for staying true to your spirit thank you for that. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing for me, I guess.  It's about doing so with love.

Being dismissive and having a judging spirit about someone else's trauma -- I don't understand that.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: harris on August 02, 2007, 11:08:03 AM
Light, how would you feel if the next time you write about the pain of your divorce and your fear in the night that your husband could attack you if someone posted that they want to make pasta salad?  How would that make you feel?  Please give a serious, non-sarcastic answer.

CB, there was a time when you were shaking in your boots about your divorce.  You are stronger now, but you are becoming a haughty, condescending know it all.  Try to remember the many, many, many times when you reached out in your pain and people helped you.

Laughter is important.  But please do not laugh at someone else’s pain.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 02, 2007, 11:12:28 AM
Dear Guest,
  I think that  you need to fight for your voice. I have found that some people here do not like me, but many others do. Sometimes, i will get criticism from some people for something that other people thank me for bringing up. That is a big lesson to me. It tells me that some people will want to push me down or off,.However other people will appreciate me for the very same thing.
  My conclusion is that I need to fight for the opportunity to strengthen my voice. The board helps me to do that. Every interaction that I have here strengthens me. Usually I learn more from the 'bad" ones if I can process them right.
 I need a few special, supportive friends within the board community to help me when I am being attacked. They build me up when I am too weak to build myself up. i think that this is crucial to being a board member. Maybe, you did not have this. i could not survive without it.
  I think that you would be letting yourself down to "slink away". Your voice is just as important as anyone who criticized you                                                    Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 11:17:40 AM
Thanks CB for finally addressing me.  

I have been asked, but I didn't feel it was sincere or well intentioned and I didn't feel comfortable and I don't have to do anything unless I feel comfortable.

You do not know who I am at all. When I posted here I had an entirely different email address, which account I cancelled.

But this whole conversation is defensive and aggressive.

Quote
My response to you is not about my past hurt with other people. It is about your actions.  Not something I am projecting

About my actions?

You're assuming who I am.  

And you are assuming whatever that you think happened on the board was about you.

Well, newsflash -- it wasn't about you; it was about my own trauma from way back and all that I needed was a soft place to fall.  

It wasn't personal.

Why not just ask me with genuine concern what the hell happenned -- I don't feel the concern because it doesn't seem to be there.

And after all of these years I've learned to trust my instincts.

They've never failed me.

I am not your fake, ranting, screaming N -- I am someone else.  Please stop treating me like I am that person.


Quote
This will be my only response to you.  You can have your thread back.

My N dad used to do this -- announce in a dismissive way that he won't be addressing me anymore.  I've learned it was to reject me -- put me in my place.

There's a number of on going threads here and an option to start more -- what could be so attractive about this thread, so important that anyone needs to post on it and announce that they won't be posting anymore; or announce how much they dislike the conversation; or announce how much they'd like it to go away.

Why not just ignore it all together?

It's a rhetorical question.  I'm not interested in arguing.  

I just wanted to be left to voice my own pain and feelings in peace.  God knows what I need and I trust in Him, that He will send it to me, even if it comes only be the relief I get in typing these words.  All of this, I believe, is just standing in His way.  But that is the job of Satan, to block the goodness coming your way and to leave you in pain and sadness and Satan will use anyone who will allow themselves to be used.

I understand not everyone shares my faith -- and I don't say this to be offensive or accusatory but :

I claim my good and I rebuke Satan on this thread and ask God to give me the peace that He promised me so that I can continue to testify about his goodness and glory.

Amen.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 02, 2007, 11:29:50 AM
This is my opinion,Guest. You can use the pain from your background,with your father- and make it play out DIFFERENTLY- this time. In the past ,I think that your father won and you walked away wounded. Why not make a different ending this time.? Why not  start  a new thread,?. I have been through several "deaths" on the board. Then ,I emerged stronger and with a more powerful voice. God will send you special people to help you. He ALWAYS does. Trust him and take this opportunity to make a different ending for yourself . Start a thread, at the beginning of this issue-- with your father not allowing you to have your voice. Write about your history of rejection( we all have it). Write about the patterns that it keeps repeating in your life. Write about the pain  that you feel,. Write about betrayal  on the board or in real life or both   Many people will understand  and you will even encourage newcomers to come out and to heal. When I am so real that it hurts,  then newcomers will come out to support me. It never fails                Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 11:36:39 AM
Thank you Ami - even in the midst of your trials and tribulations you still find it in you to be supportive.

I will consider and pray on what you've suggested but . . .

right now it's really important for me to now allow anyone to make a mockery of my trauma.

my pain is real and genuine.  i have the scars to prove it.  scars that are emotional, deeply etched in my soul, gaping and oozing -- scars that are physical, ugly gashes, keloid over and healing -- slowly but not fast enough.

No one knows the heartache I've gone through -- no one!!!!

People can sympathize, empathize, understand with compassion surely but it's takes a willing heart to do that and . . .

I can't be fooled anymore.  I'm done with opening up to people who mean me harm.  I've done that all my life.

so whether I will open up on this board in a therapeutic way remains to be seen.  I know in my heart that God allows us to go through pain so that we can share our stories and be supportive of one another with a heart that truly understands because after all we've been there ourselves.  So yes, my story can help so many people.

But I cannot help anyone if I'm under attack.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Gaining Strength on August 02, 2007, 11:39:01 AM
Quote
Well when my oldest brother got there he smacked me so hard I literally went black and saw all the stars and fireworks.  I think he knocked me out cold for a while.  When my Mom got home of course she said I got what I deserved.

I saw this line and related completely.  I have just finished Nina Browns book about "The Children of the Self-Absorbed" and she identifiies that very phrase as something common to N parents.  This past year through deep searching of my lifelong wounds I recognized that I had worn that phrase as a mantal and had become suffocated to the point of paralysis believing that all the horrible stuff that had happened was deserved.  It's impossible to recover from trauma if you deserve the horrendous outcomes.  In my healing process I must continually, consciously remind myself that I deserve abundant blessings - we all do.  Otherwise that destructive voice of the broken, wounded N prevails and God loses.  I will overcome that voice and you will and we all will.  We are a determined lot in spite of the searing pain we have and continue to experience because of our profound wounding. - Gaining Strength
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 11:50:59 AM

Quote
I will overcome that voice and you will and we all will.  We are a determined lot in spite of the searing pain we have and continue to experience because of our profound wounding. - Gaining Strength

This weekened I left my keys and cellphone at a hotel and didn't realize it until I was almost home -- four hours away.  The first thing I said to myself when I realized it is:  See, that's what I get.

The friend I was with asked:  "Why, why do you say that."

The voice in my head that tells me I deserve all the pain I've received is loud and over-powering, but I have become vigilent in rebuking that voice and even when I don't have the will to, God brings someone into my presense who does it for me.

So I totally relate and understand what you are saying GS.  Thank you for sharing a small part of your story with me.

Luke 4:10

      For it is written:
   " 'He will command his angels concerning you
      to guard you carefully;
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Gaining Strength on August 02, 2007, 11:54:45 AM
God's angels are guarding you in all of your trials and tribulations.  Keep you eyes on those angels and on their source.  Take your eyes off your trials and tribulations and turn them to the angels and their source.  That is the way to fight the battle. - your friend - Gaining Strength

Keep your eyes on the prize, your eyes on your strength not on the weakness and pain.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 02, 2007, 12:05:28 PM
Dear GS,
  What I carried in my head was 'Who do you think YOUOOO are?". I always remember this when I want to have dignity and honor in my life. 'Who do I think I am to deserve anything good?" This is the phrase that makes me doubt myself and doubt that I deserve  dignity and honor,
   I played out this phrase by getting in to and staying in and abusive marriage for 27 years.
    Who do I think I am----- nobody.  That was always my answer ,but I am disputing it now. I am as important as any other person who God made. My inherent value comes from Him.               Love  Ami.
 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Gaining Strength on August 02, 2007, 12:23:28 PM
Quote
I am as important as any other person who God made. My inherent value comes from Him.

That's it Ami.  We must all identify and FIGHT those wretched messages that we mistakenly internallized.  As soon as I have successfully replaced one another surfaces.  Sometimes I can't figure out what the repressed message is but I know it is there by my disfunction, e.g. paralyzing fear, inability to perform normal daily functions, despondancy, etc.  But I know some wrong message is at control and I open my heart to hear what it is and when it surfaces then I begin the process of replacing it.  It's a tiresome task but one I'm willing to do because the reward is a real life not the shadow version I have been living.

I'm so glad to hear you are fighting back those inaccurate N messages Ami.  I am so glad that we can fight our individual battles beside each other.  Battle on with strength - your friend - Gaining Strength - each and every day.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: debkor on August 02, 2007, 12:45:57 PM
Guest,

Alright I have not posted before have been reading although.  So here goes.

 
Quote
think people are assuming I'm someone I'm not -- which is funny, because they won't even ask!!!
So I think people here don't want to address me and my pain but want to glaze over it because they feel it's (FAKE)
Quote


I do not assume anything anymore.  So guest who are you really?  You are posting about being a member before yet saying you will not reveal yourself from past hurts from the board.  You do not feel safe.  OK I believe you.  It also makes me feel a little bit *confused* because you will not reveal yourself.  Now this is not an ATTACK and you wanted in your face honest talk so.....this goes both ways.
I have been down this road before with a friend where I had to drag out of her what was wrong.  She said she was hurt with things but made me work for an answer.  I am getting the same feeling again.
I'm sorry Guest I will not do this again. I can not keep guessing.  I will not look up who you may be.  That is up to you to reveal yourself or not. You don't have too.  But how can you be addressed when you say you are not new and speak of past hurts  from us in present tense.  How are we supposed to answer? We cannot guess what or who did what to you. 
We can just say come back and post and lets straighten this out which I have seen people say.



I am genuine and my pain is genuine, and no one here (even though they seem to think they do) knows what happened to me and what I'm truly talking about because they haven't

ASKED!!!!

I am asking.  What has happened to you.   You cannot assume that everyone knows who and what your story is.  I do not.  I do not know who you are.
I have not tried to figure it out.  I have sat waiting for you to reveal yourself since you wrote so much about being a past poster and pain this board has caused you.  You fear, your uncomfortable and you want to say hidden.
Alright.  I am respecting your wishes.  So I cannot post because I do not know
Pretty much anything except  you feel silenced, attacked and punished for having a voice on here. 
I have never felt this way and I have really (in my eyes) seen anyone attacked.
I have seen disagreements and arguments but that's OK (at least with me)  I cannot speak for everyone.  And I have never seen anyone laughed at.  I know we are very sensitive on here at times.  Now you can get mad at me for even saying this because you feel different.  I see that and that is fine because it is your feelings and you have been validated. 

If I have ever posted anything to you that offended you with your member name I would like to apologize but I can't because I don't know what I did or who you are or even if I should.  I only know you are feeling great pain.   I cannot say I am sorry when I don't know what I have done or if I have done something.

All I can say is I am sorry that you are feeling so much pain as Guest 101.   


Deb
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 01:00:30 PM
Quote
Dear GS,
  What I carried in my head was 'Who do you think YOUOOO are?". I always remember this when I want to have dignity and honor in my life. 'Who do I think I am to deserve anything good?" This is the phrase that makes me doubt myself and doubt that I deserve  dignity and honor,
   I played out this phrase by getting in to and staying in and abusive marriage for 27 years.
    Who do I think I am----- nobody.  That was always my answer ,but I am disputing it now. I am as important as any other person who God made. My inherent value comes from Him.               Love  Ami.

Ami, that is it!  I agree with GS.  When that voice questions you and says:  Who do you think you are?

You say:  I AM A CHILD OF GOD!

That is who you are, and he has promises in store for you that you cannot imagine -- for all of us.

This scripture sustains me when those thoughts come to my mind, because GS, it is like peeling an onion.  You discover one negative belief only to have removed enough of the layers of lies to be prepared to see another.

Malachi 3:10:
10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.


This verse talks about giving of tithes and I also believe if you give God his glory, if you lean on faith, He will bless you beyond your imagination.

But when it comes to adversity I lean on the words of Joseph:

“And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.”

So many times people mean evil for us but it comes to our ultimate good, to God's glory.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deb, I believe you!

I believe that you are sorry for my pain and I believe that you sincerely want to know what happened to me and that it makes you feel bad because it reminds you of the pain you went through with your friend.  And I'm sorry for the confusion and mistrust that my not be forthright has caused. 

Maybe I will become a member again and I will PM people who I trust and tell them my story -- or maybe I will not, I sincerely have to pray on this.

But for now, after what has happened here on this thread I do not feel safe or welcomed by too many members to do that although I am blessed by the voice of many others as well.  I had I'm sure hoped to heal those wounds but that doesn't seem possible.  For now, who I am here is Guest101.

Deb, you NEVER posted anything that was less than supportive and loving towards me.  I hope that gives you peace and thank you for reaching out to me with sincerity in your heart.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on August 02, 2007, 01:35:49 PM
Deb,

I have to agree with what you said.  If Guest wants to hide who she/he is, there is no way to address the original problem at all.

Guest, I do not think you need to "shoot" this thread at all.  You started this thread and I'm reading your posts and learning about your pain and your past.  You have every right to keep your thread if you want to.

Ami, I disagree that Guest needs to end this thread, although I think you are a really NEAT member of this board!

Guest, I am sad about the pain and hurt you have gone through.  You have been betrayed in your family so much.  You are in my prayers!

~Laura
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 02:35:36 PM
Thank you Laura - I get a lot from reading what you share as well.

I'm not hiding, just protecting myself I believe but God is good and He is truly showing his glory to me today!  For that I am humbly and eternally grateful.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on August 02, 2007, 04:57:19 PM
Portia
I didn't post much on this thread, as a guest101 could have been anybody--someone I was very close to, who chose to ignore me, or someone whose posts I never answered because our problems were so far apart.

I am not much into surprises, but I needed an answer if I were to continue.

My answer was that guest101 was Portia---but why be so secretive?

...and that led me to believe there was a conspiracy going on, so I ignored the thread.

Whatever, I can scarcely remember, but if I had seen you as a new member with this name and who told us why you were here woiuld have been different.

Granted, any person on this board can use any name and shoot all kinds of BS, to gain attention, continuously, repeating over and over on ever thread and then feeling adulated...... almost like an N.

I ever wondered if guest 101 was one of those.

I am NOW finished with the thread, especially when I see you taking to yourself, to keep the thread alive.
izzy



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 02, 2007, 06:03:34 PM
Light, how would you feel if the next time you write about the pain of your divorce and your fear in the night that your husband could attack you if someone posted that they want to make pasta salad?  How would that make you feel?  Please give a serious, non-sarcastic answer.

i

Hmmmm good question, Gues.....errrrr..... harris, was it? 

In answering your question..... I'd like to pen my permission to the board, as follows....

I hereby give permission (to the members of this board)  to gently (use their voices) call me on any hypocricital posts  I make.....

especially those that accuse others of doing what I, myself, have done. 

::ahem::

 Humor.....


 is optional; ) 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on August 02, 2007, 07:03:40 PM
I am so glad that the Lord has been showing His glory to you, Portia, Guest 101 or whomever you may be.

Honestly, as much as people can get upset with each other, what really matters is eternity to me, and the spiritual relationship each of us have with our Creator.

Blessya P and EVERYONE else.  We're all in the boat together I think, in a way.

~Laura
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 08:58:59 PM
I'd like to set the record straight and state I am not Portia

I'm surprised Portia didn't say as much as it would make her quite mad -- talking to herself.

But I see very clearly that there are people posting here that will say and do anything to make guest101 "bad".

It doesn't matter.

God has given me peace in this matter.

I started the thread and I can keep posting to it if I want to -- just as Bones continually posted on his Lost My Job  thread and Portia created the Anonymous thread.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with wanting attention -- another lie told to us by dysfunctional parents.

everyone wants attention.  everyone wants to be noticed and heard and considered.

noone wants to be ignored, passed over and talked about but not to.

I have the right to remain anonymous if I so choose, especially to people who are being rude and insensitive to me.

those who find this thread uninteresting should exercise their option not to post to it -- it is in fact many of the Naysayers who have in fact kept it alive.

As I said God has revealed his glory to me because even though many here were hostile many were not -- and I was able to benefit from the wisdom of those who have helping spirits and good intentions and ignore the rest.

For that I thank God, because I in my own flesh could never have done that. 

As I said earlier, for all intents and purposes I am Guest101 here and I don't have any intention of being anyone else.  Any hope I had of healing an old wound that was aggravated here is dead.  I'll just make due with the soothing balm of comfort I received from the supportive souls who posted to this thread.

Even that is a blessing, accepting that something can't be undone or made better.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: isittoolate on August 02, 2007, 09:02:46 PM
I am sorry Portia. your reaction made me think it was you and you never denied it.

so......................well maybe it's JacMac
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: g101 on August 02, 2007, 09:06:45 PM
I also wanted to point out that I'm as "anonymous" as anyone else is on this board.  My handle is my handle, and whether it's guest101 or G101 or Mary it's still me.

that is how crazy that accusation is.

also I'd like to point out that the same members who are claiming that they want this thread to go away keep posting to it, which goes against what they are saying -- even after they declare that they won't be posting to it.

so therefore it is clear to me that there is an underlying intention which I believe is o either vilify me or silence me.

 

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Guest101 on August 02, 2007, 09:09:53 PM
In addition, I want to make myself very clear that I've stated God has given me peace in this matter and I will not be anyone else but Guest101 in this forum so I won't be answering any more accusations as to who I "really" am.  I am Guest101.  Period, end of story.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 02, 2007, 11:20:44 PM
Hi Bean,

Thanks for coming back to this thread and reaching out to me again.

Quote
I'm sorry I can't bring myself to ask "what happened to you?" here, out in the open on this thread, cause I'm afraid of the response both you and I might get.  I guess I don't trust the board that much.  Also, I think that would trigger a whole lot of people (including me), and I don't want to cause people anxiety.

I understand what you're saying and I feel the same things you feel.  I'm afraid I think it's best to let sleeping dogs lie and forget the whole matter altogether.

In a way, it reminds me so much of my FOO because often one member would be left in pain or be "abandoned" because of the stress it would cause the family.  We could never figure out how to get together and meet our needs and I think that's because we had two children really, my Mom and Dad, both incredibly narcissistic serving as examples.  All they cared about was meeting their own needs and if anyone else was upset then that was their problem.



I don't know what I was expecting -- wishful thinking, I guess or else replaying another  FOO script but as I've said God has given me peace about this matter.

It seems that I have to revisit trauma again and again, if only to notice that I have healed some and that I am stronger.

The other day my younger brother made plans for me w/o consulting me.  He's a little manipulating, controlling person and a liar to boot. 

He said, "Aren't you going to drive such and such up to the city tonight?" with all the innocence of someone who didn't volunteer people for stuff they don't want to do all the time.

When I asked him where did he get the idea that I would drive someone way across town he tried to pin it on his daughter. 

"Just ask her"
, he kept saying with a little manipulative smile on his face.  "She thought you were going to do it." 

When she came down before I could even blink, he'd ran up to her and said asked her didn't she think I was going to make the trip and of course the child, cornered and put on the spot said, "Honestly, well, I don't know; that was the plan" --

I said, "Look, I know exactly who you are and what you're up to.  You are a liar.  You're always trying to manage and control people and you made this plan w/o speaking to me but I'm not going and I wish you wouldn't do that."

Of course his response was, "Oh, you're crazy.  We're all having a good time.  Why do you always have to spoil everything?  Don't listen!" he said to his daughter, I mean physically standing between her and I!!! " It's not even a big deal.  Whatever.  Making a big deal out of nothing!"  He turned to me, "You're just looking to start trouble."

Abruptly he changed the conversation, a forced smile painted on his face.

His daughter cornered me a little later  and whispered:  "He TOLD me that you were going to drive over there."
"I know"
, I said, "I know exactly who I'm dealing with".

But I was left feeling all yucky inside.  Like I'd put my hand on some snot on a chair by mistake and couldn't get it off my fingers.

You see in my FOO I was always crazy, a trouble maker, labeled, cornered, manipulated  -- if it wasn't so painful it would be boring.

But however painful it was I was always told to just get over it or it wasn't a big deal and you know that just kills me.

It's like going over to a person who has a bleeding gash in his leg and saying, "You know, that cut has been bleeding for a bit.  It shouldn't be.  You should stop bleeding and complaining of pain and walk normally like nothing is wrong right now."

Everyone heals at their own pace and everyone has different needs for healing.  It's not for one to tell another person what they should or shouldn't be doing to heal.  There's a line between advising and dictating.

I'm sorry this has been uncomfortable for you -- that wasn't my intention in the least.  I know that some people might not agree with what I've decided and I'm sorry about that, too but I have to do what is best for myself before I can look to caring for other people.  I've learned the lesson well enough.

By the way, you sound stronger :)
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 03, 2007, 12:25:52 AM
Bean,

Let me share with you what I've learned.

When speaking with evil I've learned you speak with authority.

Have you read People of the Lie?

I don't remember if you are spiritually inclined or not but it doesn't matter.

Abusive people/evil people/bullies/Ns -- they all respond to authority.

Remember, they are emotionally retarded and insecure -- when you confront them with the truth -- when you mean it from the bottom of your soul, they respond to that confidence in the only way they know how, by backing down.

My brother IS a liar.  The next week he asked me with a syrupy sweet voice:  I was wondering if you could drop the kids off when you're leaving; that is if you want to you know.  No pressure.  I'm not trying to get you to do anything you don't want to."

Was he being sarcastic?

I don't know.  I don't care.  All I know is HE KNOWS do not volunteer me for anything w/o my permission again.  If he does it again he will be dealt with in the same manner.

Of course, I'm talking about dealing with disordered, abusive people with absolutely no boundaries.  they love to change things and rewrite history, they as the blameless star of course.  if anything comes up that doesn't cast them in the best lighting they gas light or attempt to erase history.

presenting them with the truth always scares the crap out of them -- but you've got to be careful because some people are truly evil, ruthless and uncaring and they will hurt you w/o a thought in the world.  my brother, his image is much more important to him than hurting me.  but he's still very capable of hurting me -- I've seen him be ruthless and that is why I give him a wideberth.

yeah having two N parents sucks -- you end up feelings like an alien.  and guess what, the aliens DO reproduce, in the form of some of your siblings and sucks even more.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: teartracks on August 03, 2007, 01:56:22 AM
Dear guest 10l,

I thought I would not be posting to your thread again.  Maybe that I am, means that I'm not rigid in my thinking.  I see that as a good thing.
 
What I want to try and do is take apart and hopefully help make sense of what may have caused what you introduced as a  perfectly worthy topic for discussion down a bumpy path of ambiguous, confusing  verbal exchanges with little topical substance   
 
How did it all get skewhawed?  Here is my take:
 
1)  Your identity is hidden whether you post as guest or as a member.  Being a member simply makes more options available to you. However, right or wrong clandestine type identities by nature stir up suspicion in realspace and on this forum  especially in cases where one makes a point about having taken a 'hidden identity, which is no more hidden that that of a full member.  In my view, the way you presented your case as a way to cop a hidden identity was a ruse.  It invites and to a significant degree gives permission to be treated as if you don't really exist in flesh and blood.  Did you do this on impulse without a thought for how it would shake down eventually and erode your creibility if pursued?  I'd be the last to chastise you for impulsivity.  I've had to reel myself in a few time here.  While on the subject of broader options, if you have been in back channel discussions or alliances that went bad, then I can see why you would be more cautious about becoming a member, preferring to operate inside a smaller loop. 

 2)  Most people don't have a category or compartment where they process things as disturbing and complex as a mother killing her child.  I don't. I don't want to designate a place in my heart or my intellect that is  dedicated  to trying to make sense of something so horrible. I'd rather just stumble through it if I have to.  As I write about it now, all I want to do is cry.  All I will want to do next time is cry.  I don't want to understand intellectually or emotionally a thing as disturbing as this  to the point where I can offer up a fresh, perfectly worded response on the spot.  I just don't.  OC,  please forgive me for speaking about you in the third person.   I'm not trying in any way to diminish or disrespect OC's need to be comforted.  I can't imagine the turmoil and grief she has experienced.  I'm in complete agreement that she needed and deserved comfort and support delivered from the heart rather than the intellect.  But in the main, I think most people are like me, unprepared and ill equipped to stand in the gap on such occasions except incompletely.  So while you should be commended for your sensitivity to OC, the event/subject you chose to demonstrate your point was far too complex and overwhelming to be a good one, except perhaps for a handful of highly trained professionals.
3)  Your starting posts suggest that you possess some kind of ethereal,  all knowingness or discernment as to when and where evil lurks in others.  In the Christian faith it is believed that some are gifted in the discernment of spirits.  If that is where you are coming from, then so be it, but something in the way you present your 'gift,' if in fact that is what you are doing is offputting.
4)  When you posted what you thought would have been a proper response to your earlier posts, (your post #124), my thought was, wouldn't I  be preaching to the choir (even if  I'd seen what you didn't say between the lines, which I didn't), considering  as how you already seemed to KNOW it all.  Maybe I'm out to lunch, but my sense was that you had something to say, that you said it, and that was that. I respected the point you wanted to make in your initial post concerning intellectual vs emotional responses.  But the event you used to demonstrate it was (I'm sure not by design) not a good choice. 
5)  TT, your response did not make me feel good at all.  did is matter to you when you wrote it, how I felt?  I'm just asking. Your feelings do matter a lot to me before, during and after this thread dies, however, my post wasn't about addressing your feelings.  It was about trying to draw attention to the board's limitations.  There is every possibility that in a different setting discussing a different subject, you would have been at the center  of my tenderest thoughts, feelings and expressions.

were you just concerned with the fact that I had made the board look bad or that you felt bad that you forgot I'm a person just like you.  with all my hurts faults and all.
 Actually, I don't think you or any other individual or group has the power to make the board look bad or good in more than a transient fashion. The board is what it is.  It draws its characteristics from it's participants not the other way around.  You could say the board is the tree, we members are it's branches, twigs, and leaves. 
6)  My opinion only. The conflicts that arise (in roughly  quarterly cycles) here often appear to be driven by one or another person's desire to imprint the board with their identity either permanently or for the proverbial fifteen minutes of fame.  Sometimes  the steam powering the attempted coup has been gathered by alliances formed  back channel.  Sometimes, it's not covert at all.  It's more like an in your face failed coup de tat.  You stated that the board functions well with cliques and sneakiness.  The reality of it is that in the big picture, cliques and sneakiness hardly see the light of day.  That's because the board is the tree.  Inherent to its nature is the capacity to shed or reject  it's branches, twigs and leaves.  For a narcissist, that might take some getting used to, but it is a fact.
6)  In your post #127 and others, you reflect on the way you've presented yourself thus far on this thread.  Good for you!  I'm beginning to hear your heart.  I'm identifying with you.  #130 not so good.  A lot of blaming and shaming, playing the victim. 
7)  From the start of this thread, I sensed an underlying theme of exaggerated victimhood in your posts.  #175 seems to back up that sense.
7)  Responding to your invite post # 161.  Honestly.
8)  I  also wanted to point out that I'm as "anonymous" as anyone else is on this board.  My handle is my handle, and whether it's guest101 or G101 or Mary it's still me.   That seemed obvious to me from the start, which begs to question what was behind the hidden identity sham/drama? 

Thanks for allowing me speak. 

tt
http://www.vision-nest.com/btbc/kgarden/tscircle.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUxi-Zc45tA
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on August 03, 2007, 07:50:21 AM
Ok, my initial reaction while reading some of the posts here is that people have "too much time on their hands."  Any newcomers to this board, will have no clue who is who and what is being debated or discussed.  I'm not saying that you need to shut down the thread.  I'm just bringing back objectivity here.

Guest and others...some of what you said, might feel pretty triggering to the person is was about.

If X came to this board and was talking to another person inadvertantly about how I posted, saying "well, I understand how you feel...we BOTH know what happened and I don't blame you for feeling betrayed, hurt, etc"...all that is, is an underlying way of "gitting" the person who is reading it.  If person A gets with person B, and says that in front of person "C" it's almost like a secret code language, to let person "C" know that both people are in agreement against her.  THINK ABOUT IT.  Could it be possible that some N-tactics might be infiltrating this board through a person/s?

We all must continually examine how we say things and what we say as well as the WHY we say them.  That is hard for those who have been steeped in n's ways since childhood or who have been severely traumatized and only know how to use subtle punishing methods when feeling attacked.

Just a thought and my perception of things at this point.

~Laura
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Portia on August 03, 2007, 08:13:55 AM
Hi Guest 101

I didn’t say that I wasn’t posting as Guest 101 because it didn’t occur to me that anyone might think I was. Just like I haven't proclaimed here that I am in fact not a goat. Or bookcase. Or cheese sandwich. I might be a tree, but that's my business. :P

My first ‘laughter’ post probably might seem a bit strange to some reading, but then, I am a bit strange (in a good way, mostly, I think).

I’m not sure anyone thinking that I was talking to myself makes Guest101 look ‘bad’, it might make ‘Portia’ look ‘bad’ (or indeed, mad)! Thanks for putting the record straight.


Hi Laura/ReallyMe

Very serious now: I’m not a believer Laura but if it happens to me, I will try to come here and say so. If there is a Board to tell at that point, if it happens. Blessings back to you though, we are all in the same boat.


Hi Izzy, no problems and no hard feelings. Thanks. :)

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 03, 2007, 08:19:52 AM
TT, I love it when a conversation comes full circle.

Quote
however, my post wasn't about addressing your feelings.

I pulled this line from your post because it points to exactly what I was trying to point out in my original post and explains why your post didn't help me at all. 

I wasn't looking for a synopsis about the limitations of the board and while that might have exonerated you and others who post here of any feelings of responsibility or consideration for the way you post when a person reaches out in pain, again, it didn't help me at all.


Quote
In your post #127 and others, you reflect on the way you've presented yourself thus far on this thread.  Good for you!  I'm beginning to hear your heart.  I'm identifying with you.  #130 not so good.  A lot of blaming and shaming, playing the victim.
7)  From the start of this thread, I sensed an underlying theme of exaggerated victimhood in your posts.  #175 seems to back up that sense.
7)  Responding to your invite post # 161.  Honestly.
Cool  I  also wanted to point out that I'm as "anonymous" as anyone else is on this board.  My handle is my handle, and whether it's guest101 or G101 or Mary it's still me.   That seemed obvious to me from the start, which begs to question what was behind the hidden identity sham/drama?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.  I think there's a problem of perception between you and I.  I also hear  judgment in your words.

I'm not here to prove to you that my feelings are genuine and I feel that your assessment of "exaggerated victimhood" (oh, get over it already) is due to the fact that the feelings I bring up are uncomfortable for you; one you'd rather not feel in yourself -- therefore you reject them in me as you do in yourself. 

There is no sham/drama -- but I recognize that where you are in your life, that is what you see.

I do not accept the exaggerated victim label.

I do not accept the sham/dramak label.

I do not accept the blame and shame label.

Having a discussion about how what I wrote might have made you feel is very different than taking a position of authority to dissect my post and tell me where I went wrong; what I'm doing and thinking and by extension, feeling.






You know, I can't take care of the board by myself.  I ask people to consider something for the benefit of the board when posting and I am attacked -- right away my intention and integrity is called to question.

I talk about my own pain and in large part by many people it is ignored.  Right away my intention and integrity is called to question.

Then it comes full circle to a lesson on how to post and what to post fully equipped with links of explanation.

There is a RIGHT spirit operating here, not an understanding one.

I reject that RIGHT spirit because I am not interested in logical debates I'm more interested in talking about how I feel and how others feels.








Laura, I get what you're saying but it's a minefield, addressing my own issues while simultaneously trying to be aware of how a stranger coming to this board might react. 

I thank you for bringing up the subject about what the "person" in question might think if they strolled through this forum --

what is more amazing is now that I've said like three times I want to drop the subject of what happened to me and what I felt about it , people just keep bringing it up.

Quote
Any newcomers to this board, will have no clue who is who and what is being debated or discussed.  I'm not saying that you need to shut down the thread.  I'm just bringing back objectivity here.


Seeing a person respond w/ integrity and confidence to toxic bullying behavior might be helpful to them.





Portia,

You might not have noticed but Izzy accused me of being you, that is why I corrected her otherwise wouldn't my behavior be quite mad?

To refute an accusation that hadn't been made?  And I said if I was you that would make you quite mad -- I think you read it wrong.  It was exactly what Izzy was saying, that I was keeping this thread a live by talking to myself. 

I'm sorry but I don't have the desire, strength or inclination to go back through this thread and find the post for you, but unless it has been alerted or erased (something that happens here) -- it's still there.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Portia on August 03, 2007, 08:34:44 AM
Hi Guest101,

yes I saw the post but not until you'd answered. You said:

I'm surprised Portia didn't say as much as it would make her quite mad -- talking to herself.

It might make me appear mad, but it wouldn't make me mad. Yes?

Anyway, do I really care very much about what anyone wants to assume about me, really? Is an assumption an accusation? I didn't feel accused. I was slightly curious as to why anyone might think you were me, because imo, you don't sound like me at all!

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 03, 2007, 08:55:04 AM
Portia
I didn't post much on this thread, as a guest101 could have been anybody--someone I was very close to, who chose to ignore me, or someone whose posts I never answered because our problems were so far apart.

I am not much into surprises, but I needed an answer if I were to continue.

My answer was that guest101 was Portia---but why be so secretive?

...and that led me to believe there was a conspiracy going on, so I ignored the thread
izzy

I am sorry Portia. your reaction made me think it was you and you never denied it.

Whatever, I can scarcely remember, but if I had seen you as a new member with this name and who told us why you were here woiuld have been different.

Granted, any person on this board can use any name and shoot all kinds of BS, to gain attention, continuously, repeating over and over on ever thread and then feeling adulated...... almost like an N.

I ever wondered if guest 101 was one of those.

I am NOW finished with the thread, especially when I see you taking to yourself, to keep the thread alive.
izzy



is that an accusation or an assumption - it seems pretty clear to me to be the former.  you don't deny an assumption.   
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Portia on August 03, 2007, 09:15:05 AM
Mmmm I agree with you there. I guess if I'd have read these posts as they happened, i would have said i wasn't you, or maybe I would have said: "why do you think I'd be posting as Guest101?". Oh well.

You said you were surprised i hadn't said something, well, now you know why. I hadn't read it.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 03, 2007, 09:39:46 AM
I am not saying to end this thread. Someone misunderstood me. It hit me today that it would be good to have threads on the underlying issues. For example, there could be a thread on betrayal and how betrayal molded us and our lives. There could be one on rejection ,being left out,bullying, etc. All these life issues have made  us who we are. We have all suffered from all of them. They usually have a root in childhood and then we replay them with other people( spouse, friends) during our lives. We are almost on an auto-pilot and keep wondering why these painful themes keep repeating.
  The only way out,I think, is to heal the original pain. So, I think that it might be really helpful to everyone to address these themes in their lives. .
 Just a thought                                                        Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 03, 2007, 10:51:29 AM
"this is called the Indian talking stick.

it was given to me by Indian chiefs after praying w/ them for several days.  they run Indian nations in N. America states and Canada.

they even gave me my name:  Bald Eagle.

it's authentic.  specially carved.  beautiful.

but you can use a pencil, you can use a spoon, a conch  -- anything.

the whole idea of it -- and they taught to this to the founding fathers -- the most powerful communication idea and technique I have ever found.


ever.


how many people ever in meetings when you can just feel the hidden agendas operating.

I always like to break that down fast.

how would you like to heal divisions in your own family?

  two kids that are quarrelingw/ each other.

just do this:

you just go up and you say to the other person:

You've got the talking stick.

I can't say anything.

Maybe I can ask a question to see if I do understand your point.

But I can't make my point.  I can't agree.  I can't disagree.

All I can do is communicate until you feel understood.

As soon as you feel understood on your point, then you pass the talking stick or pencil or whatever to me.

Now it is my turn.

And you are quiet.

And you listen with empathy.

Until I feel understood.

As soon as I feel understood I pass it back to you.

Until you feel understood then you pass it back to me.

Now what happens is literally it transforms defensive, negative energy into creative transforming energy.

Here's why:

When you really listen to another in depth until they feel understood you are communicating their worth, their potential --

you are affirming them

it is so therapeutic

so healing

that they cannot fight you

and they gradually become more and more open

try it tonight w/ your loved ones.

you see two kids fighting just walk up to the smaller one and say,

`Honey, you got the pencil.  No one can talk until you feel understood.

and then as soon as you feel understood

and WE make your point to your satisfaction then you pass it to your older sister or brother

just try it

you think it takes time?

it will save so much time!

and in your meetings that you go to basically you say

let's agree to the simple ground rule that no one can make his or her point until they restate the other person's point

to his or her satisfaction."


Thank you TT for providing that excellent link.

TT I will tell you I do not feel heard and understood.

I do not feel from you, that you've restated  my point.  I don't feel that my worth and potential has been affirmed.

Do you feel that you've done that?   

Do you feel that you have listened to me with empathy?

Because I do not feel that you have done that, and that many others have done that.

And it is for this reason that I have not opened up.

Thank you again for providing a link to an example of an excellent illustration of effective emotional communication. 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 03, 2007, 10:56:54 AM
sorry, here's the link that TT provided:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUxi-Zc45tA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUxi-Zc45tA) in her post here:  http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5219.msg83123#msg83123 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5219.msg83123#msg83123)
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 04, 2007, 01:51:05 AM
some more about me.

in the past, as I mentioned in the Betrayal thread, if I brought up a betrayal that had occurred in my family, a violation or an emotional need, not only was it NOT addressed or met but I was ridiculed for having the need and punished.

The punishments were as follows:

ostracizing me.

ignoring me.

criticizing my reaction to my needs being ignored (you're too sensitive; you're a cry baby; you're so angry  -- of course, anyone would be sensitive, sad and angry about being ignored or ostracized but that's besides the point in a dysfunctional FOO)

silencing me

gas lighting me (telling me something that clearly happened didn't)


Then if I withdrew from contact with my family because of their behavior towards me they criticized me for that!

The criticisms were as follows:

You're too sensitive.

You take things too seriously.

You're too needy.

You're too demanding.

You're controlling.



I was too aloof, I didn't want to be part of the family, I didn't know how to act properly around them so that I could be part of the family.

(This means play nice, don't ask for much, don't draw attention to yourself, don't have opinions or feelings and God forbid needs but in a dysfunctional family this is never said outright.)


Then if I came back and tried to interact with them (that means their guilt campaign worked and overruled my need to protect myself from their toxic behavior) if I had any further needs I was supposed to of course ignore it for the benefit of the family. I was supposed to forget all about what had happened and pretend nothing went wrong.  Forget about healing past hurts.  That was NOT happening.

Of course, being a normal child with NEEDS that was impossible.

so it was back to beginning,

punishing,

ostracizing,

ignoring.


My family then labeled me as the troublemaker.  They felt (pretty accurately) that whenever I was around "something" came up.

My needs became reclassified as my "looking for trouble"

They could not for the life of them understand what was constantly coming up was my having natural, normal needs which of course every child had and of course  needed to be met and their constant frustration of those needs FOR THEIR OWN SELFISH PURPOSES.


The purpose of my familiy's behavior towards me was to either get me to fall in line or get rid of me -- but when I distanced myself from them they accused me for it.

They said:  See, I told you she just wanted to cause trouble.

This is an example of being DAMNED IF YOU DO --- DAMNED IF YOU DON'T.




Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on August 04, 2007, 08:51:08 AM
Guest, I read your post here, and I must say that I can identify with everything you said, regarding X in my life, whom I'm now going to switch to calling "K" from this point on.

I'd like to share some things so that maybe you might feel just a little more "related to" and validated.

guest101
Guest

Quote
in the past, as I mentioned in the Betrayal thread, if I brought up a betrayal that had occurred in my family, a violation or an emotional need, not only was it NOT addressed or met but I was ridiculed for having the need and punished.

>>>>>If I ever said anything to K about how she treated her child or even me, she would either A.) ignore me and not respond  B.) try to justify her treatment  C.) tell me that I was misunderstanding what I was seeing.

Quote
The punishments were as follows:

ostracizing me.

ignoring me.

Same for me.  The ostracizing doesn't come till the end with K though...after she has found her next supply source to replace you with. 

I was definitely ignored by her, to a point that I'd say it appeared that she was dissociating from me.  She'd turn her back to me or just walk on past me and talk to her family, hugging them, being smiley, while acting as though I wasn't even in the room.

Quote
criticizing my reaction to my needs being ignored (you're too sensitive; you're a cry baby; you're so angry  -- of course, anyone would be sensitive, sad and angry about being ignored or ostracized but that's besides the point in a dysfunctional FOO)

Yep.  She didn't call me a cry-baby.  Her thing was to tell you that you were clinging and whiny.  She justified letting me cry alone, by saying "if I came and hugged you and told you it would be already, I'd be "FEEDING" your dependency on me."

Quote
silencing me

gas lighting me (telling me something that clearly happened didn't)

K wanted to silence me from telling others what really went on in her home.  At one point she told me that I should be very grateful, because she was going to report ME for stalking HER, because I had kept trying to get her to talk to me rather than ignore me.  (I'm one who wants to talk things out, not ignore them and let "time" take care of them)


Quote
Then if I withdrew from contact with my family because of their behavior towards me they criticized me for that!

When I pulled away from K and her family, I think she sensed that I was not happy or pleased with the treatment I was getting, so then she UPPED the mocking of me, the criticism of my husband, the false accusations, etc.

Quote
The criticisms were as follows:

You're too sensitive.

You take things too seriously.

You're too needy.

You're too demanding.

You're controlling.

Yes...K told me that I was too "needy" and that I was expecting too much of her...that "this is how we live everyday, Laura.  What were you expecting and wanting to see?"  (keep in mind she had set me up for this wonderful "ministry" experience, and, not one thing I did there, had anything to do with "her" ministry.  I really didn't see any evidence that she even HAD a ministry, while I was there.) 

As far as being accused of being "too controlling"...this didn't come until after I began exposing her narcissism.  She would say "look at THIS.  now WHO is the real Narcissist here?"  (At that point, I had learned to "fight fire with fire" and, yes, it almost seemed like I was turning into K"

Quote
I was too aloof, I didn't want to be part of the family, I didn't know how to act properly around them so that I could be part of the family.

Now, with you, Guest, you WERE actually born into the family...but, you could be actually describing to a TEE what K's daughter must have felt.  She was from the former husband, and nothing like her siblings.  K resented her because she could not be conformed to be what K wanted her to be.  The daughter did very much stay separate from the "family" since she would be mistreated anyway.

 Same for me...after a while, I had no clue what the "unspoken family rules" were  (basically, they were "when grandma walks into the door, all eyes on her, drop everything, make it look like we didn't just have a major fight with each other, be the perfect "children")  I wasn't even one of K's children, but I was expected to follow suit with the rest of them.  I had NEVER EVEN SEEN SUCH A THING IN MY LIFE!  It was as though K and her mother were the GODDESSES of that house.  Almost like a mafia type home situation.  I did play along though, to try and "when in Rome, do as the Roman's do."  Felt like I was lying the entire time to K's mother, when she'd say "you ladies havin a good time?' and I'd respond with "uh huh."  (I didn't realize that, behind the scenes, K had been filling her mother in on how AWFUL it was to have me in her home!)

Quote
(This means play nice, don't ask for much, don't draw attention to yourself, don't have opinions or feelings and God forbid needs but in a dysfunctional family this is never said outright.)

The weird thing about my situation, was that, no matter what I did or said, it was twisted around to make me look CRAZY.  No, needs were NOT discussed much in K's house.  SHE was the one who the family revolved around CLEARLY, and I even told her this.  I said "your family treats you like a QUEEN, K"  She said "i don't like it when you say that.  It's not TRUE."  (do I hear the cracking of EGGSHELLS?)


Quote
Then if I came back and tried to interact with them (that means their guilt campaign worked and overruled my need to protect myself from their toxic behavior)


I ALWAYS was the one running back to K and apologizing.  Oh, she'd apologize to me too, but only cause she could not STAND the guilt of having hurt me...she didn't feel BAD about it, but she sure didn't like those feelings trying to dig their way to the surface in her heart.  She was taught that she was NOT to have those feelings nor to let on that she did...having been raised under the public and family eye as a minister's kid.


Quote
if I had any further needs I was supposed to of course ignore it for the benefit of the family. I was supposed to forget all about what had happened and pretend nothing went wrong.  Forget about healing past hurts.  That was NOT happening.

Me too.  I was told to be thankful that she was giving me another chance, that she was just going to live like it never happened, and I should too.  I was also threatened that if any of what happened in her home, got out in public, her husband and her would make things very bad for me.  thankfully, they can't legally do that, since I'm not using names.  Honestly, they DO have connections that could screw me over BIG TIME!


Quote
My family then labeled me as the troublemaker.  They felt (pretty accurately) that whenever I was around "something" came up.

OH, not only was I "labeled" a trouble maker at K's house.  I was told that I was always having "issues" every day.  When I didn't say a word to K's husband, he would ask me questions till I finally admitted having a problem in an area, then he'd say "see?  I TOLD you...like I SAID, always an ISSUE with you!"  (at that point, not having realized the cycling set-up he just did on me, I began to revert back to that helpless person that only HE and K could help)  The thing is, K and her husband constantly told me I had issues but that they did not KNOW how to help me nor if there was help for me.

Quote
My needs became reclassified as my "looking for trouble"

I was definitely seen as the one who "stirred things up" in people's houses.

Quote
They could not for the life of them understand what was constantly coming up was my having natural, normal needs which of course every child had and of course  needed to be met and their constant frustration of those needs FOR THEIR OWN SELFISH PURPOSES.

In my case, it was not normal needs of a child...it was normal needs of a friend coming up in me.  It was normal needs of a visitor or guest to K's home...a guest who did NOT know what K expected, and when I did try and meet the needs I did know, K twisted things around to make me feel that I still messed up in trying to please her.  If she KNEW I was doing things to try and please her, she made it clear that there would be NO REWARD coming to me for doing so.  It was all just TWISTED with her.



Quote
This is an example of being DAMNED IF YOU DO --- DAMNED IF YOU DON'T.


Exactly what I said to K in the end.  Her response in a very lethargic voice "I don't understand what you mean, girlie"  (was she BLIND?  was she DUMB?  was she PLAYING WITH MY MIND?)  I don't know, but it felt like living a NIGHTMARE of bait n switch and double-binds, unspoken rules, gaslighting, false accusations, mocking, never measuring up, etc.

My heart goes out to you, Guest!  I've been where you are, in a sense, though with a "friend" not a parent or family
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 04, 2007, 11:43:43 AM
Thank you Laura, so much.  You've really described more in depth what I'm feeling NOW here and what I felt growing up in my home.

I feel validated and heard.  Thank you for that.


You see, if I stop posting here because of how I've been treated some people on the board will say:

See, G101 is a trouble maker -- a troll.  I told you'd it blow over though, if you just ignored the posts.  Read the cyberbully post and the warning that was put up -- it's all happened before.  It's just this person's way of getting attention.

If I continue to post some on the board will say:

See, G101 is a troublemaker -- a troll.  It will blow over though, if you just ignore her.  Read the cyberbully post and the warning I put up -- it's all happened before.  It's just this person's way of getting attention.  This poster is BAITING you -- ignore it.  Walk away.  There's nothing to see here folks.  It's what I said it was -- don't use your own judgment -- use our judgement instead.  We know better than you, newbie/newcomer.  This person is BAD so treat this person BAD -- this person deserves it.

As if getting attention is a bad thing.  But no, wait it is BAD thing, in this dysfunctional way of thinking -- it is being an EXAGGERATED VICTIM.  Oh my goodness, what a horrible, horrible set of words.

I don't feel K felt guilty about hurting you.  I have to disagree w/ that.  From my experience I think if you apologized to her and she didn't respond back with the same it would make HER LOOK BAD -- remember, it's all about image.  And it sounds like K needed to keep up some kind of sterling image of a minister with good intentions.

It seems that the bad behavior had to be constantly covered up with good behavior to keep the image up so that's why you'll hear empty apologies.

My FOO was the same.  They'd do something horrible and then cover it up.  But emotionally that's like covering up a pile of manure with chocolate syrup.  It's disgusting -- if you know what it is.

Quote
Exactly what I said to K in the end.  Her response in a very lethargic voice "I don't understand what you mean, girlie"  (was she BLIND?  was she DUMB?  was she PLAYING WITH MY MIND?)

I don't feel that she was blind or dumb.  I feel definitely she was playing w/ your mind, like a person would play a chess board. 

It was all about her, all the time -- you didn't matter to her, but only to reflect back to her her perfect image. 

In my experience, and from what I've learned since the family operated under her rules, they served the same purpose, to reflect back to her this perfect image so anyone who didn't do that had to be destroyed.  Certainly none of the family was going to risk being cast in your place as the scapegoat.  They'd probably learned a long time ago what the wrath of K felt like.


Sometimes here I feel that same cycle is being repeated  Some will say stick it out, this place is good, it will get better but meanwhile it's the person that's been scapegoated that's feeling all the hurt -- a hurting that can't really be discussed, can it w/o the same cycle of ignore, bash, label, ostracize being replicated.  More hurt.

why would a person stay and be subject to such abuse? wouldn't it be normal for a person to want to get away?

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 04, 2007, 11:53:23 AM
Dear Guest and Laura,
   My M was the "K". I came away with deep messages like "Guest's message about being the trouble maker or Janet's message of being "difficult. My message is "Who do you think you are?" IOW, I don't deserve respect, dignity ,integrity etc. It is funny, but I always had ( and still do) material  advantages. The "Who do you think you are?" applied to emotional things.
   My life with my H is the SAME emotionally as my FOO. I had material things .but NO dignity. I was not "worth" that.
 Guest, I think that you need to make sure that you do NOT leave the board as a 'trouble maker" b/c it is your opportunity to change the script-- not reinforce it. It is crucial to you (IMO) that you stay.
   For me, I am 'undoing" one script and you are undoing another.. We have the opportunity to  alter our scripts by changing the outcome in cyberspace. Then,we will gradually change it in our real life.
 I think that you are doing the right thing by continuing to post              Love to you    Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 04, 2007, 12:22:34 PM
Ami, my heart sincerely goes out to you in that you're still struggling w/ this situation and I know how debilitating that can be -- how draining on your spirit it can be, both emotionally and physically.

I am trying to hold onto my integrity here, even as I continue to be shunned and labeled.

I am doing this by ignoring the threads that have been created specifically to demonize me and get other members to join the bandwagon.

But I am going to point them out though because I know why I am being labeled and I know others here have experienced this in their own lives, have felt what I felt and not being able to see the forest for the trees maybe they couldn't describe it or label it for what it is.

what it is manipulative and insidious.

because I point that out and call attention to that toxic behavior, I'll always be a "trouble maker" to those who want me to just go away.

because they just want me to "play nice" or "go away" -- I could never be an authentic person here w/ integrity,

I'd have to play a role of another happy go lucky person who can post recipes and little jokes.

so it doesn't matter what I say or what I do as Guest101 to be included here I would have to stop being Guest101 and become some one else.

I am no longer in the business of betraying my self to please other people.

Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 04, 2007, 01:43:05 PM
because I point that out and call attention to that toxic behavior, I'll always be a "trouble maker" to those who want me to just go away.

because they just want me to "play nice" or "go away" -- I could never be an authentic person here w/ integrity,

I'd have to play a role of another happy go lucky person who can post recipes and little jokes.

so it doesn't matter what I say or what I do as Guest101 to be included here I would have to stop being Guest101 and become some one else.

I am no longer in the business of betraying my self to please other people.





Dear Guest:

What you pointed out, in your OP,  was your own behavior.

Asking the board to pretend you were doing us all a favor..... was an ill disguised attempt to gaslight the board, as I see it: )

I'm not mad at you....

you don't upset me....

I resent the fact that you're upsetting yourself....

and other members. 

I admit that. 

Some here agree with you.  That's their right.   

.::shrug::

Like I said, it's not my intention (read that as job) to convince the board to see it my way or tell them how to post.

I asked you to work your old issues out, honestly, on the board.

You declined. 

IMO, of course.

That's ok, too. 

Your accusing the board of denying you a fair say. 

I don't see it that way.... I see you denying yourself that opportunity and accusing of it.

  ::shrug::.

Let me know how that works out for'ya.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 04, 2007, 01:47:59 PM
I just received this phenomenal affirmation and wanted to share it with the rest of the board:

God Supports Me

God created me to be fulfilled.

I Trust God and He is There at Every Turn.

I am Safe.


Isn't that profound!

God is truly a glorious God.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 04, 2007, 08:50:25 PM
I just received this phenomenal affirmation and wanted to share it with the rest of the board:

God Supports Me

God created me to be fulfilled.

I Trust God and He is There at Every Turn.

I am Safe.
Isn't that profound!

God is truly a glorious God.



That was a nice departure from kickin rocks and eatin balogna samiches, Guest, lol; )


I haven't seen anyone here call you a demon.... not anything close: /

The worst thing I've seen people do....

is speak their truth.


Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: guest101 on August 05, 2007, 02:01:28 AM
Lighter,

I don't know how to say this but plainly:

Will you please leave me in peace.

You are not helping me.

You are only being hurtful and mean. 

Please leave me alone.

Allow me to work out my own issues without baiting me, please.

I am trying to appeal to the kindness and empathy that I see you extend to other members.


Please, leave me in peace.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 05, 2007, 01:14:05 PM
Lighter,

I don't know how to say this but plainly:

Will you please leave me in peace.

You are not helping me.

You are only being hurtful and mean. 

Please leave me alone.

Allow me to work out my own issues without baiting me, please.

I am trying to appeal to the kindness and empathy that I see you extend to other members.


Please, leave me in peace.




Since you're speaking plainly to me..... I'll speak plainly to you: )

Please do not mistake (my) honesty,

for cruelty. 

It didn't work too well for my N, either and he always said.... 'you're being cruel' when I spoke my truth. 

Always.

If I post empathy and kindness to anyone here.... it's based on my perception of reality.
 
If you wish to be treated differently,

just say so.  ::shrug::

I can wrap my mind around an honest request to 'gaslight' the board, unhindered.

At least the new posters won't be left in confusion about your intentions.....

 and I won't feel obligated to post honestly in your direction: )

Peace to you, Guest....

As always.

 
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 05, 2007, 01:22:07 PM
God forgive for jumping in when maybe I should not(or maybe I should)but I think that you are being intentionally cruel here where you don't have or need to be.  Lighter                                             Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 05, 2007, 01:40:01 PM
God forgive for jumping in when maybe I should not(or maybe I should)but I think that you are being intentionally cruel here where you don't have or need to be.  Lighter                                             Ami

You have every right to say.... 'that's mean, stop it' Ami. 

I respect that.

Just expect honesty in return.....

so.... 

I think you're being naive and gullable .....

helping Guest feel entitled to gaslight the board and sidestep honest requests for clarification.

Are you being intentionally enabling, where you don't have or need to be?




Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 05, 2007, 01:52:12 PM
dear Lighter,
   I see a hurting person trying to make a connection-- in the best way that she knows how. I see someone on the school yard who desperately wants to join the group of kids playing.
  I see someone who needs help rather than someone trying to get one over on anyone.
                                                                                                 Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: harris on August 05, 2007, 02:01:18 PM
Lighter,

I don't know how to say this but plainly:

Will you please leave me in peace.

You are not helping me.

You are only being hurtful and mean. 

Please leave me alone.

Allow me to work out my own issues without baiting me, please.

I am trying to appeal to the kindness and empathy that I see you extend to other members.


Please, leave me in peace.




Since you're speaking plainly to me..... I'll speak plainly to you: )

Please do not mistake (my) honesty,

for cruelty. 

It didn't work too well for my N, either and he always said.... 'you're being cruel' when I spoke my truth. 

Always.

If I post empathy and kindness to anyone here.... it's based on my perception of reality.
 
If you wish to be treated differently,

just say so.  ::shrug::

I can wrap my mind around an honest request to 'gaslight' the board, unhindered.

At least the new posters won't be left in confusion about your intentions.....

 and I won't feel obligated to post honestly in your direction: )

Peace to you, Guest....

As always.

 

I think your N was right.  You are cruel.  And sarcastic.  Cruelty, saying mean things and sarcasm are characteristics of an N.

You justify your cruelty, sarcasm and meaness by saying you are protecting the board.  Don't worry about the board.  The board was here before you came and it will be here after you leave. People have their own minds and can evaluate  your words and actions for themselves.  Instead of worrying about the board, concentrate on your own words and actions. 

Guest asked you to leave her alone.  You just can't leave Guest alone, you keep coming back to bait and bully.

Your position is understood:  You think you are right.  Fine.  But, if a poster asks you to leave them alone, have to grace and dignity to do so.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 05, 2007, 02:11:37 PM
dear Lighter,
   I see a hurting person trying to make a connection-- in the best way that she knows how. I see someone on the school yard who desperately wants to join the group of kids playing.
  I see someone who needs help rather than someone trying to get one over on anyone.
                                                                                                 Love  Ami


 :shock:

I disagree with your post, Ami.

You aren't suggesting I'd push a hurting child around on the board......

 for a kick, are ya?

Just asking for clarification: )
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 05, 2007, 02:28:05 PM
Quote
Harris Writes:  Cruelty, saying mean things and sarcasm are characteristics of an N.

You justify your cruelty, sarcasm and meaness by saying you are protecting the board.  Don't worry about the board.  The board was here before you came and it will be here after you leave. People have their own minds and can evaluate  your words and actions for themselves.  Instead of worrying about the board, concentrate on your own words and actions. 

Guest asked you to leave her alone.  You just can't leave Guest alone, you keep coming back to bait and bully.

Your position is understood:  You think you are right.  Fine.  But, if a poster asks you to leave them alone, have to grace and dignity to do so.


Ummmm..... 

1)Guest has the same obligation to concentrate on her words and actions, same as me?

2)Why is pointing out irony interpreted as sarcasm and cruelty, lol? 

Doesn't seem fair, lol. 

And.....

::trying on SUPER N costume::

SUPER N must have a really muscular butt and a teeny tiny waste.

Darnit, lol.

::taking costume off::

Hows that board monitor costume fittin ya, Gues....rrrrrr..... Harris?   :shock:

Just because I get the last word...... doesn't mean I'm not going to leave her alone; )
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on August 05, 2007, 04:54:34 PM
Did the Kindercare and Nursery School classes get out early this week or something?  Come on people...just let everyone do their thing.  Im not saying don't comment, cause we all should be able to...but, let's comment on behaviors a bit more than on people, I think.

~Laura
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 05, 2007, 04:59:31 PM
Did the Kindercare and Nursery School classes get out early this week or something?  Come on people...just let everyone do their thing.  Im not saying don't comment, cause we all should be able to...but, let's comment on behaviors a bit more than on people, I think.

~Laura


::adjusting Mickey Mouse ears..... heading back to the beach::.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 05, 2007, 05:57:28 PM
Dear Lighter,
   What I see is that someone is saying that they want to belong. This is what I hear under all the words. They want to be welcomed in more than the particular subject matter.
                                                                             Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: reallyME on August 05, 2007, 05:59:55 PM
Thanks for taking my comments lightheartedly.  I meant it kind of "tongue in cheek" yet somewhat seriously.
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: Ami on August 05, 2007, 06:07:37 PM
Dear Laura,
  Maybe everyone is still a little kid under it all. It  reminds me of a dinner party that I went to. They had gag gifts.There was a game of exchanging the gag gifts within the group. All of the people there were really successful ,but they were like little kids wanting the better gift. This struck me that maybe, we all are the little kid inside. I don't know ,but it seems to make sense.                   Love  Ami
Title: Re: intellectual vs. emotional responses
Post by: lighter on August 05, 2007, 06:14:10 PM
Dear Lighter,
   What I see is that someone is saying that they want to belong. This is what I hear under all the words. They want to be welcomed in more than the particular subject matter.
                                                                             Love  Ami


I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Ami.

Assuming good intentions from children......

is a wise thing.  

I make it my business to do that.

I know how to do it.  

I know why I do it.

Assuming good intentions from an adult, who's given me/you information to the contrary......

isn't a very good investment.

In my honest opinion, of course.