Author Topic: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?  (Read 7888 times)

sKePTiKal

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2010, 07:17:03 AM »
S'OK Kathy... it took me a long time to figure out - and I still need reminding, coz I forget - that it's only through letting "them" upset me, hurt me, stimulate guilt, encourage me to question myself... that they're getting the "satisfaction" they crave.

While it's immensely tempting to try to return the "favor" and hit back... the absolute BEST revenge is to simply ignore them and not be "moved" from my own equilibrium, choices, and self-boundaries. I have a pavlovian reflex to be outraged & frustrated and feel injustice - among other things - and that part of the equation, is my problem. That reflex is what kept me trapped in and vulnerable to - that particular mind-game for so many years. It's easier to fix me... than it is, to figure them out!!!

I think you're doing fine, you know? When your Dad calls... try to link that to the image of stepping in dog doo... or some other unfortunate, but trivial "indignity" (it washes off)... take a deep breath and ignore it to the best of your ability. It's OK... perfectly fine... to vent about it (god knows we really need to be heard!) - but don't let it "take over" and ruin your day!!!

You're still in control of you and they don't have nearly the amount of power of you that they think they do (or that you might be afraid they do... because of a similar reflex).
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

BonesMS

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2010, 09:04:54 AM »
If I may add in a penny or two...the phone calls from N-Blockhead, attempting to lay a guilt trip on you, is very similar to the final phone calls I received from NDoofus.  When I went LC, she started ramping up her demands that I orbit my life around her royal self.  That's when I went NC.  Her final phone call went something like this

NDoofus:  "You don't call me anymore!"  (whining)

Me:  "Cuz you DON'T LISTEN!!!!!"  (hung up on her)

Haven't received any more phone calls from her since!  (Which is a RELIEF!)

Bones
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JustKathy

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2010, 04:21:35 PM »
Hee! Well done, Bones. I'm honestly surprised that she didn't call back, send you letters, or do something similar to keep you engaged. Your tone of voice must have sent a pretty clear message. Good for you.

BonesMS

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2011, 07:00:48 AM »
Hee! Well done, Bones. I'm honestly surprised that she didn't call back, send you letters, or do something similar to keep you engaged. Your tone of voice must have sent a pretty clear message. Good for you.

Thanks, JustKathy!

Bones
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Redhead Erin

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2011, 03:13:25 AM »
I see your point. that statement really struck a cord with me, though.  That is exactly what *I* have always wanted, so much that I jumped ot the conclusion that it is a universal wish. 

Hell, if I could get as far as the words with her, it would be nothing short of monumental.




You want him to say, I know I was wrong, I know I hurt you when I should have defended you, I know I failed you. And I love you, and will you forgive me?


Right there in a nutshell, isn't that what we all want?

Hi Erin,
actually, no it isn't what I want. They're just words. edit I would like abusers removed off the planet. ignore that. The answer is still no, it isn't what we all want.

Guest

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 08:05:56 AM »
Hi Erin
I read the statement again. It does nothing for me now. It would have done, a while back, years ago. Too much fantasising going on in that statement; better to align ourselves with reality I think.

I've given up. Words and the rest, not interested. They're just random people you know.

Maybe you want and will achieve something different?

getnbtr

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2011, 01:57:45 PM »
Hi Kathy,

I don't get on here too often, but when I did today and saw your post, well...I almost thought that I had written them! You have described my FOO. NM, CO-F. GC brother and GC Sister!
Your CO-F gets it. Doesn't want to admit that he had to HIDE the fact that he married such a witch all of these years. Bad reflection on him he thinks! She has brainwashed him and he has allowed it IMO. He knows, yes, he knows.

GC brother got all of the material stuff and GC sister will be getting the $. I was threatened for years to be disowned if I didn't ignore the abuse to me, then my husband and then my children. 15 years ago I let my dad disown me and that he could have it his way. He has made a couple of feeble attempts at talking to me a family functions about how he misses me and he's not getting any younger. I told him to call me and we can talk, but not here and not in public...never heard back from him. He is a coward. His mother ( my grandmother) told me before she died that he was a fool, was always a fool and always will be a fool. She told me that after I had spent years confiding in her, all she would say since I was small is,"that's a shame." I loved spending time with her, she had class and dignity and wisdom that I loved to tap into. A real rock in my life to hold onto. Sometimes I am tempted to tell him what she said but that would make me worse than him IMO.

It's just not worth having to allow yourself to be abused trying to get someone to love you. Either they do or they don't.
I have been spending the last 6 years trying NOT to be codependent and not making golden children or scape goats out of my own children. It's been hard with a NH but boundaries seem to be key with me. Your dad could have made choices and so could mine, I did. This board has helped me find my voice. Sometimes I just read and learn. Sometimes I shake my head. lol
It's good we have folks here that know what we go through. Most of the people out there don't have a clue. Lucky Them!!! My heart goes out to you Kathy. Hang in there and don't dwell on it.

JustKathy

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2011, 05:32:14 PM »
Thanks getnbtr. I'm constantly amazed by how many people in this group have said, "You described my family exactly." By the same token, I can't believe how many stories I've read from others that sound as if I had written them myself. It's astounding how similar these people are, not just the N parent, but the entire FOO. I have heard SO many people describe the exact same family structure: The N mother, the Co-Father, the scapegoat daughter, the Co or GC sister, and the brother, who is ALWAYS the GC, the male heir, the most important child of the lot. It really is remarkable. If I didn't know better, I'd say these people are given a manual of instructions on how to be an N. Some of them even use the same vocabulary words. Crazy!

sKePTiKal

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2011, 07:17:34 AM »
Hey Kath - it's exactly that pattern in dysfunctional behavior that makes me think it MIGHT be possible to find similar patterns in the effects of the dysfunction (it's way harder, tho - more variables)... and create some sort of roadmap or decision-tree chart... for healing. We - the board members - are a pretty creative group and the collective set of skills here are impressive.

Why couldn't we start organizing stuff in the "what helps" section of the board? To put together a kind of "DIY Healing Toolkit"? Right now the threads are there... and there's some really good stuff there... I dunno... it's just another of the stray ideas that fly through my head... not all of them are worth paying attention to!!
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

cantors.counter

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2011, 01:51:15 PM »
Kathy, like getnbtr, I don't get on here often, but I have to say your description is so familiar to me as well. The oddest thing is while reading the last few posts I realized that the story also sounds like my mother's family. Her NM with the GC son, scapegoat daughter (my mother's sister), etc. My mother went on to marry a raging (literally) N and create another generation of it.

The most amazing part for me is the propensity Ns have for cutting children out of their will. It seems like such a fringe thing, yet it's SO common. Mine notified me of my no-longer-in-the-will status when I was 15. I'm an only child (abortion wasn't as easily gained back then), and they were certain to tell me their favored place to will their money was an academic foundation. Money had always been of tantamount importance to my parents; it was their god. Cutting me out of their will was the most concrete way they could communicate to me my place in their lives. What was my "crime?" I was a teenage girl who was behaving badly. I was a straight A student taking advanced classes in science and maths, who didn't smoke, drink, do drugs, party hard or stay out all night. I'm not proud of it, but I was obnoxious and moody and disrespectful.  I now have two almost-teens and can't imagine WHAT they could do that would cause me to take similar action.

getnbtr

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2011, 04:50:53 PM »
cantors counter, like you, I acted out too and didn't feel grounded or secure. My mother would tell me something and then say she didn't say that and punish me for doing what she said in the first place. I thought I was going mad until I started writing down what she would say and show it to her when her mind would change. Then I was beaten for CATCHING her! She just hated me. Kids don't do well when they are hated. My NH did the same to me until I started writing things down, he is afraid to say anything to me now.

JustKathy

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2011, 10:10:48 AM »
Quote
The most amazing part for me is the propensity Ns have for cutting children out of their will.

They do, but I think you explained it very well in saying that money is of tantamount importance to Ns. My mother's world revolved around convincing people that she had "made it."  Like your N, mine also communicated the importance of each child by giving them monetary goods (or lack thereof). When my brother was a teen, they kept buying him cars. He had no appreciation for these cars, never having invested a dime of his own money, so behaved recklessly and kept crashing them. They would promptly replace each one. Of course, none of these accidents were his fault, so he had a brand new high-end car within days, which he promptly trashed. I think he went through about 6-7 new cars by the time he was 25.

I only recently found out that I was removed from the will, but in talking to my Co-F, I got the feeling that he was puzzled as to why I was just now asking, as it had probably been this way for years. I'm pretty sure that I was also removed as a teen, when I developed autonomous thought, and could no longer be controlled. Like cantors.counter, I was also an honor student who got straight As, never took drugs or smoked cigarettes, and never "hung out" after school. My only crime was becoming a teenager, rather than staying a five-year-child, as NM had expected me to do.

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My mother would tell me something and then say she didn't say that and punish me for doing what she said in the first place

Okay, this line is an absolute mind blower for me. This describes my teenage years perfectly. I could have written this line myself. My NM did the same thing. I would ask her if I could go to the school dance, and she would happily say yes, and even give me money to buy a dress. But on the night of the event, she would deny giving me permission, would run (crying) to tell my father that I was being a "bad girl," not to mention humiliating me in front of the friends who had come to pick me up. She always had my father punish me for my "disobedience." At the time, I thought I was a bad daughter, that I, too, was going mad. In hindsight, I wish I had tape recorded it all. Though in all honesty, if I had provided Co-F with a tape recording, he would have claimed that I doctored it and punished me anyway. This is gaslighting at its worst. Apparently I'm not alone in this experience. The teen years are our formative years, and being abused at that time is very damaging. I still have nightmares about the things she did to me in high school.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 10:13:57 AM by JustKathy »

river

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2011, 03:51:21 PM »
This post could be in a dialogue with the one about collusion surely. 

It seems like your coF is in the 'slave/master' role to NM.   .... but in a really severe way, what you describe reminds me of a chapter in 'People of the Lie' by Scott-Peck, its a book basically about the problem of evil in humans
 he seems to have no soul of his own at all. 
How one could perhaps feel some degree of 'sorrowful concern' for someone like that, but probably only when you're well out of harms way.   And in the case of a parent, the problem is we carrry a lot of the impact inside us, and so are easily triggered, and getting out of harms way isnt so easy. 

JustKathy

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2011, 08:48:08 PM »
Quote
he seems to have no soul of his own at all. 

No, I never saw any trace of a real person inside the physical body. We both worked in television, at different networks, so several of my co-workers had previously worked with him and knew him. They all described him the same way - jovial, silly, happy-go-lucky. I described him more bluntly as being "simple." He always acted like he was functionally retarded, in a Gump sort of way. He never expressed his own opinions, never engaged in serious conversations. His world was his wife, his bicycle, his favorite TV show. It never got any deeper than that. Perhaps he was afraid to show independent thought. After all, I did, and look what happened to me.

And agree, it was absolutely 100% collusion.

I have to tell you something that I find sad about my father. He worked for 50 years in the entertainment industry, many of those years for Dick Cavett and Dick Clark (American Bandstand). Every so often hubby and I would be watching some show on VH1, and he'd walk through the room and say, "Oh, that Janis Joplin, she was sure a firecracker." He knew or had met some of the most famous people in the world, but was never allowed to talk about it. After all, NM never got to meet Hendrix, or Joplin, or the Jackson 5. But Dad did. Every so often something would slip out, but I'm sure he kept it all inside so as not look more "important" than her. How sad. I'm sure he had some amazing stories to tell, but the fact that they were amazing forced him to keep them to himself. Complete and total mind control. A life wasted.

Even though I have been disinherited, and the GC has his Emmy, I do have ONE thing. I helped myself to it after my mother threw it in a box for the Salvation Army. It's a demo album from Nat King Cole, autographed to my father when he worked in radio at the start of his career. NM was going to throw it away. Yeah, Dad tossed me out with the trash, but I'll still treasure that album. I guess it represents what he really was, or what he could have been.  :(

river

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Re: Do Co-Spouses REALLY not get it?
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2011, 07:25:03 AM »
Kathy,
Your post left me ghasping.   
And almost speachless. 
Its hard to explain, like a traffic jam wanting to be said all at once.

I hope this wont be offensive, its that I've been studying this dynamic from a professional point of view, because i was seeking understanding for my own expereinces.  So I want to link up what you have said, and brought to life so vividly with the my technical understanding.   
(My personal dream is to write about this in a humanised way, ie not specially for professionals)

In the first part you described what has been termed the split between the 'slave/master dynamic' and the 'self in exile'.  (Easy to see who is which).
Quote
  Perhaps he was afraid to show independent thought. After all, I did, and look what happened to me.
   
I think you got the essence of the dynamic, how it happens, as you point out, a 'there but for the grace of #God go I'.
  Its still a stance that lacks both spirit and morality. 

I wonder, too what broke his spirit?   Tho I realise,  some people go thro terrible stuff and still come out fighting. 



 (I